Enrico1

At my wit's end here and would be grateful if anyone could give some advice about how to proceed.

The story in short is that we were flying from Gatwick to Funchal (Madeira) last Friday for a friend's wedding on the Saturday. We arrived at the airport in plenty of time, got to the gate as soon as it said to on the screens, and then proceeded to wait over 2 hours at the gate. We were told the pilot was delayed in traffic. This was the first red flag that something was awry – especially as all passengers (a full flight) had made it there on time, many via the M25. 4 or so hours later we were coming into land at Funchal – pilot made a complete hash of it turning in too late, and aborting the landing to try again. He blamed the wind and took a longer run up for the second attempt. Got about 10 metres from the ground – much less shaky than the first time and aborted again. About 10 mins later we were told we were on the way to Lisbon as the wind was too strong to land in Funchal. Entire plane was in agreement that the second attempt should have been landed. We get to Lisbon after having been in the air the best part of 7 hours, with very little by way of updates from the pilot. Another 2 hours of endless standing around trying to find out what was going on, followed by a sprint to the buses to try and get on one to be taken to a hotel for the night (I should point out if we hadn't been such fast runners the wait would have been longer). All the suitcases were also soaking, putting a large amount of our packed clothing out of action. Next morning we are bussed to Lisbon airport, to stand in another non-moving queue for 1.5 hours, taking off a further 1.5 hours after schedule, and landing in Madeira (where we were told the wind was worse than the day before) having missed our friends wedding and arriving almost 24 hours after initially scheduled. Another point of interest is that the previous day, ours was the only flight not to land. One landed 5 mins after and 15 mins before. Are the fact that the pilot was 2 hours late and unable to land at Madeira related? That's up to you to decide.

I wrote to BA expressing how unhappy we were to miss the wedding, especially given the circumstances and various delays, coupled with a complete lack of empathy or information. At the very least I expected some avios in return. After 8 days of waiting I finally got a response saying since the weather was at fault (a point I contest) there's no apology and no compensation. They would however use my feedback to try and ensure the pilot isn't 2 hours late in the future.

Would be great if anyone has a view on where to go next with this as I feel completely let down by BA.

rossmacd

Unless you (and the rest of the passengers) are professional, qualified pilots, I'd be careful at saying statements like these....

SteveF

Really? You asked them all, including the co-pilot?

The flight crew did exactly what they should have done if they considered it unsafe to land.

Accept it was the weather and move on.

KARFA

Whilst I sympathise with your problems, it is rather silly for you to write the following:

The pilots train over years to get qualified and continually after during their career. They are regularly checked, and in fact FNC requires specific training due to the difficulty of the apporach. So I am sure that the pilots were unlikely to care less if you and the rest of the plane thought they should have landed on the second attempt! Pilots have don't particularly want to divert either, but neither do they want to die trying to land in difficult conditions.

DocWatson

Sorry to read such a torrid tale, and that you missed the wedding. Others will be able to advise whether any sort of service recovery compensation can be expected but I would imagine that would only be for your Lisbon situation, which sounds quite poor. Your travel insurance may have some cover for a delay such as this and I would read the policy in detail and ask what you're covered for if it isn't clear.

If you're thinking about EU261 compensation then weather is not something that is covered.

Forgive me if you are a pilot of any degree of experience and licence in which case you are more qualified to decide than me, but I would not judge the pilot's actions, even if the "entire plane is in agreement". You'll see in other threads and across the wide internet that Funchal is a highly challenging landing due to winds and terrain. You can also see many TV programmes about 'world's most dangerous airports', 'world's most challenging landings' etc that feature it alongside Lukla and Kai Tak etc.

It's not just wind speed, it's direction and gusts that can cause problems. As Madeira is stuck out in the ocean often just one attempt is made before diverting back to the mainland for fuel and crew hours reasons.

As for other airlines, each one has its own Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) and it may be that the conditions were outwith BA's chosen limits but others may have found them just acceptable. It has been a long time since BA, or its ancestors, have had any sort of airmanship-related accident and I'd be delighted if things remained that way.

The pilot being so late does sound unusual, but I would expect BA won't give you the details of where s/he lives and the route s/he opted to take to get to LGW so you can't prove or disprove their reason, only that a suitable standby could have been provided.

Good luck, FNC is a new route for BA and weather diversions are likely to be more common than other destinations. Please let us know how you get on so more people know what to expect in these events.

lorcancoyle

+1

I might be able to differentiate between a smooth landing and one that's a bit sketchy, but would never second guess the conditions. Pilots don't take diversion decisions lightly. It's quite possible that with weather conditions the pilots needed to make a call to divert after second go around - it's not as if they can try endlessly burning through fuel.

You might have been better off upon landing in Lisbon seeing what other flights were available next day - pilots and crew would have minimum rest period, but TAP or someone could well have been flying sooner. And BA would have been in a tough position denying a claim given re routing obligations under EU261 (though appreciate not everybody is able or willing to pay for replacements up front and possibly have several months waiting for an uncertain refund)

Enrico1

Ok perhaps rash to say that about the landing - consider it retracted - but maybe if he'd left home in time the wind wouldn't have been so troublesome two hours previously...

I'm probably writing whilst the red mist of having missed a friend's wedding, coupled with the fact we were travelling with people who had been to Madeira many many times and never been re-routed to Lisbon before, only to somewhere nearer.

KARFA

Winds change a lot at FNC so no this doesn't surprise me in the least.

V10

I'm not going to jump onto the "you're not a pilot" outrage bus, but I would say that I think you're quite rightly owed an apology if nothing else for the delayed departure.

Who knows whether your ability to land at the destination would have been similarly weather affected had your flight departed on schedule.

SteveF

Do you have evidence that he didn't? You said he was delayed in traffic. It's also possible than the wind would have been as bad or worse if he was on time or better if he was delayed for three hours instead of two.

rapidex

Funchal is an extremely difficult airport that has unusual weather conditions.Pilots need special training before they are allowed to land.If BA had any sickness/other problem with the originally rostered pilot they cannot just call any standby.They need someone specifically trained,which might account for the delay.

There is a wind chart for Funchal which lists the wind directions and strengths permitted for landing.Outside these published limits landing is not permitted.The weather at Funchal can vary dramatically with the wind in limits 5 minutes before and out of limits for you.What happened previously is no guide for what happened to you.

It happens often for aircraft to be unable to land at Funchal,make a couple of go arounds and go off to Lisbon for fuel.Large amounts of extra fuel cannot be carried due to the short runway and landing weight restrictions.

Funchal is a cat C airport with special training required,usually a couple of hours in the simulator but may also include a physical entry as an observer.Rather expensive for many airlines.

I think the OP's complaints are groundless and BA is correct in dismissing them.

corporate-wage-slave

Funchal is genuinely the most difficult mainstream airport to land at in Europe. Special training and approved flightdeck crew is needed for it, only 20 captains (approx) in BA can fly there. On my recent visit, we had a difficult but successful landing, and the British travellers actually clapped on touchdown, which isn't exactly common. A TAP from Lisbon service had to turn back 20 minutes later.


Having said that, I saw your service being diverted and I did feel for the passengers involved, it would have resulted in almost longhaul amount of flying in a shorthaul jet.

The one option you would have had at LIS - which I bet you were not told about and which all travellers should tuck away for future reference - is that after a 5 hour delay you can instruct BA to return you to your point of departure, LGW presumably, AND get a full refund, so long as the trip no longer serves its original purpose, in your case the wedding, so you would have been on strong grounds. Airlines hate that provision so I guess you would have had to challenge strongly to get them to rebook you back to LGW, but it is the law.

Looking at your post, then I can see you had a rough trip. BA isn't responsible for the poor landing conditions in FNC, but the 2 hour up front delay is their look-out (I don't think it was that long was it? I recall 90 minutes) and it was a shoddy trip overall what with the wet baggage. So what I would do is ring up BA customer relations as per your login on BA.com - telephone number at the bottom of the page in Contacts. Discuss the case with an agent and see if they can give you some Avios by way of compensation. I specifically suggest ringing, not emailing/webforming.

Enrico1

If I was 2 hours late to an important meeting with 150 people, I'd be fired, especially if it cost the company thousands of pounds. If a plane load of people can arrive 2 hours before the flight is due to depart, then the most important person on that flight can arrive at least at the scheduled departure time.

msm2000uk

I'm on mobile so cannot find the link, but perhaps another FTer would be able to post the video in which a BA Captain talks about landing about Funchal, and discusses the difficulties involved.

That may help the OP understand that it is not simply about straightforward location to land at.

QueenOfCoach

And then there's the folly of arriving for something as important as a wedding without any time to spare. Things can and do go wrong.