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CW "no changes" restriction not stated/paid seat not agreed

CW "no changes" restriction not stated/paid seat not agreed

Old Sep 15, 2014, 8:18 am
  #1  
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CW "no changes" restriction not stated/paid seat not agreed

Have had a very disappointing time with BA. My PA booked business class to DC and does not recall seeing any warning that this was a strictly "no changes" booking. My email confirmation makes no mention of "no changes." It does say as an endorsement, "not refundable" - but this is not the same thing; many flights are non refundable. I need to go to NY now instead of DC the same day - and then go on to DC - but BA have said even if I paid for a NY return ticket (i.e., and didn't use both the flight out to DC and NY return) they would automatically cancel my return to London from DC. Other airlines do not do this.

What is really the issue here is that the written booking confirmation is legally - I am a lawyer wrong. Yet BA just stonewall and say it says "no changes" in their system. Of course it does, but this misses the point entirely. To have a valid contract you need both parties to agree and an "offer and acceptance." How can the customer ever prove they did or did not agree to a term or condition when using an on line booking process? They can't, and so the customer is always wrong according to BA.

Separately, I have just been charged $45 for a seat selection for a flight last month (my sons seat in WT) I am sure I never selected or agreed to. I do recall that the BA web site froze 2 or 3 times and said unable to continue on line check in. When I finally was able to continue with on line check in, a seat, randomly, had been selected - certainly not by me I remember thinking this was strange. I also could not then move the seat, so my son could sit with my family (on a different booking). The rest of us were able to select seating for no extra charge in the normal way so it not occur to me my son's seat was for an added fee. I did not see any message that I would be charged or asked to give payment instructions. I had no idea until an email from BA arrived several days after the flight saying it had charged my credit card account.

Same point again. Because there is no practical means for customers to preserve a record of each on line choice made, if the system has a hiccup or glitch and does something without the customer's consent, there is never any way to challenge BA. This hardly seems fair. The CR people I spoke with could only read from their set hymn sheet, were totally unable to grasp the legal significance of the absence of customer consent, and generally seemed to not care in the least about loss of goodwill. So if I decide to take my companys business elsewhere, I guess they wont mind that either.


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Old Sep 16, 2014, 4:27 am
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Originally Posted by haylefarm
Have had a very disappointing time with BA. My PA booked business class to DC and does not recall seeing any warning that this was a strictly "no changes" booking. My email confirmation makes no mention of "no changes." It does say as an endorsement, "not refundable" - but this is not the same thing; many flights are non refundable. I need to go to NY now instead of DC the same day - and then go on to DC - but BA have said even if I paid for a NY return ticket (i.e., and didn't use both the flight out to DC and NY return) they would automatically cancel my return to London from DC. Other airlines do not do this.

What is really the issue here is that the written booking confirmation is legally - I am a lawyer wrong. Yet BA just stonewall and say it says "no changes" in their system. Of course it does, but this misses the point entirely. To have a valid contract you need both parties to agree and an "offer and acceptance." How can the customer ever prove they did or did not agree to a term or condition when using an on line booking process? They can't, and so the customer is always wrong according to BA.

Separately, I have just been charged $45 for a seat selection for a flight last month (my sons seat in WT) I am sure I never selected or agreed to. I do recall that the BA web site froze 2 or 3 times and said unable to continue on line check in. When I finally was able to continue with on line check in, a seat, randomly, had been selected - certainly not by me I remember thinking this was strange. I also could not then move the seat, so my son could sit with my family (on a different booking). The rest of us were able to select seating for no extra charge in the normal way so it not occur to me my son's seat was for an added fee. I did not see any message that I would be charged or asked to give payment instructions. I had no idea until an email from BA arrived several days after the flight saying it had charged my credit card account.

Same point again. Because there is no practical means for customers to preserve a record of each on line choice made, if the system has a hiccup or glitch and does something without the customer's consent, there is never any way to challenge BA. This hardly seems fair. The CR people I spoke with could only read from their set hymn sheet, were totally unable to grasp the legal significance of the absence of customer consent, and generally seemed to not care in the least about loss of goodwill. So if I decide to take my companys business elsewhere, I guess they wont mind that either.


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I'm not a lawyer but didn't your PA tick the T&C box before purchasing?
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Old Sep 16, 2014, 4:33 am
  #3  
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Originally Posted by haylefarm
Have had a very disappointing time with BA. My PA booked business class to DC and does not recall seeing any warning that this was a strictly "no changes" booking.
Perhaps you need a new PA then. The fare rules for cancellation/change is quite clearly shown during the booking process.

Originally Posted by haylefarm
BA have said even if I paid for a NY return ticket (i.e., and didn't use both the flight out to DC and NY return) they would automatically cancel my return to London from DC. Other airlines do not do this.
Almost all airlines will cancel the remaining segments of a ticket if you no show for any segment.

Originally Posted by haylefarm
What is really the issue here is that the written booking confirmation is legally - I am a lawyer wrong.
Why is it wrong? It states non-refundable which the ticket is. There will be other conditions as per the fare rules of the fare you (or your PA) purchased which includes if any changes can be made and at what cost. Most other airlines are similar and the confirmation does not include the full fare rules.


Please post back on how your court case against BA goes.
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Old Sep 16, 2014, 4:37 am
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Welcome to FT, haylefarm!
Originally Posted by haylefarm
My PA booked business class to DC and does not recall seeing any warning that this was a strictly "no changes" booking.
Did your PA book on ba.com?

If so, you need to get a PA who is more attentive to detail. It is not possible to make a booking on ba.com without being shown a page of fare conditions which makes clear that there are no changes and no refunds.

FWIW, the receipt you've posted suggests that (if you're booked London-Washington-London) you have an I class fare in one direction and an R class fare in the other direction. If it helps, the R class fare is changeable (for a change fee of 200 plus any fare difference), so that half of the ticket should be changeable even if the I class half of the ticket is not.
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Old Sep 16, 2014, 4:38 am
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I am not a lawyer....but just doing a booking in CW return for November

On the price quote page , it clearly states

Heathrow - Washington
Changes
No changes permitted. No upgrades permitted

If you want to cancel your flight
There are no refunds except for any government & airport taxes

Washington - Heathrow
Changes
No changes permitted. No upgrades permitted

If you want to cancel your flight
There are no refunds except for any government & airport taxes


Not hidden at all. Looks to me that your complaint is with the PA not with BA
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Old Sep 16, 2014, 4:41 am
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I don't know why BA make it so hard to find T&Cs for tickets once booked. I spent some time the other day chasing down the exact rules for a ticket I need to change.

In terms of BA cancelling the rest of the itinerary if you don't take a flight, I think that's pretty standard airline practice.
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Old Sep 16, 2014, 4:49 am
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Last edited by Globaliser; Feb 27, 2019 at 9:43 am
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Old Sep 16, 2014, 5:00 am
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Originally Posted by haylefarm
...Because there is no practical means for customers to preserve a record of each on line choice made, if the system has a hiccup or glitch and does something without the customer's consent, there is never any way to challenge BA. This hardly seems fair...
BA have a 24hr cooling off period for any booking. So you can check all of the details are correct after to see if any mistakes have been made (by either party). I do agree that there is room for improvement in BA's email confirmation and a direct link to the ticket restrictions wouldn't go amiss, but all that info can be found via the manage my booking link. You will know better than me, but isn't there an onus at some point for the buyer to check the product/contract they have agreed upon? If so then I doubt that BA are legally in the wrong.

It seems like you and your PA are both fairly new to booking airline tickets; restrictions are very, very common across the industry. Its annoying but I would strike this one down to experience and for the future - caveat emptor.
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Old Sep 16, 2014, 5:21 am
  #9  
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There is nothing to stop you booking a flight from Washington to New York for after you arrive and then taking a flight or train back to Washington

If you do decide to start using another carrier in the future, you would have the same issue with non refundable/non changeable fares ; no other airline is going to act differently in applying fare rules as are applicable to fare purchased
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Old Sep 16, 2014, 5:26 am
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Originally Posted by RedcardPingle
... and a direct link to the ticket restrictions wouldn't go amiss, but all that info can be found via the manage my booking link.
Can it? Where? I looked everywhere for that info recently and couldn't find it.
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Old Sep 16, 2014, 5:33 am
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Just because you PA "does not recall seeing any warning that this was a strictly no changes booking" doesn't mean that it wasn't there (I bet it was). You'll have more luck suing your PA than BA.
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Old Sep 16, 2014, 5:38 am
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Originally Posted by Globaliser
And to underline why your complaint is with your PA, here's a sample of the relevant ba.com booking screen, first in overview, and second with the detail of the fare conditions (although this example has a no changes no refunds fare in both directions):-

[Both images clicky.]
Thanks Globaliser, I was about to post exactly the same screenshots.

The condition & terms are actually very clear on ba.com now, they were put in to this new clear format within the last year.

I am sorry, but as a lawyer myself I think reaching for the law when you/you PA are unable to read clear terms on doing a booking is a pretty poor. Your PA will have seen these screens and clicked to accept the terms and conditions. Did you tell your PA specifically that you wanted a flexible ticket?

I am not sure on the seat charge, have you actually been charged $45? I thought when you selected a seat and went to pay do you go to a payment screen? I didn't think it just bills the original cc used to make the booking.

Anyway, welcome to FT as this is your first post. I hope you reflect on what you post and do perhaps make some positive contributions to the board in the future.
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Old Sep 16, 2014, 5:39 am
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Originally Posted by SteveF
Just because you PA "does not recall seeing any warning that this was a strictly no changes booking" doesn't mean that it wasn't there (I bet it was). You'll have more luck suing your PA than BA.
Quite.

As for the seat selection fee, seat selection is free of charge on BA from 24 hours before departure. Certain categories of passengers are entitled to select a seat for free 48 hours or 7 days before departure, or from the time of booking. Other passengers who value a particular seat may choose to purchase an advance seat reservation but are under no obligation to do so.
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Old Sep 16, 2014, 6:09 am
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Was you son being on a different booking down to your PA as well?



And why is it always lawyers who seem to have the problem of not reading the T&C? Most of the threads involving people not understanding / reading the T&C seem to involve the legal profession
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Old Sep 16, 2014, 6:32 am
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Welcome to FT!

I do hope you stick around even though most replies here will not offer you much sympathy in this matter.

Originally Posted by haylefarm
Have had a very disappointing time with BA. My PA booked business class to DC and does not recall seeing any warning that this was a strictly "no changes" booking. My email confirmation makes no mention of "no changes." It does say as an endorsement, "not refundable" - but this is not the same thing; many flights are non refundable. I need to go to NY now instead of DC the same day - and then go on to DC - but BA have said even if I paid for a NY return ticket (i.e., and didn't use both the flight out to DC and NY return) they would automatically cancel my return to London from DC.
You have a discounted business ticket. It comes with restrictions. You could have had your PA book you a fully flexible ticket, but that would probably be at least 2x what you now paid, so if you are smart, you can still get away with a cheaper total fare even if you ditch half the ticket and buy a new one.

Originally Posted by haylefarm
Other airlines do not do this.
Wrong. Almost all airlines use this practice.


Originally Posted by haylefarm
What is really the issue here is that the written booking confirmation is legally - I am a lawyer wrong.
I wouldn't advertise that fact too much. You are in the wrong here as you did not read the T&Cs properly. (And by "you" I mean your PA that acted as a proxy for you here)

Originally Posted by haylefarm
Yet BA just stonewall and say it says "no changes" in their system. Of course it does, but this misses the point entirely. To have a valid contract you need both parties to agree and an "offer and acceptance." How can the customer ever prove they did or did not agree to a term or condition when using an on line booking process? They can't, and so the customer is always wrong according to BA.
I suggest you do what others have already done for you - make a dummy booking on BA.com and go thru the processes. You will find that there are numerous indications as to the fare rules and T&Cs.

Originally Posted by haylefarm
Separately, I have just been charged $45 for a seat selection for a flight last month (my sons seat in WT) I am sure I never selected or agreed to. I do recall that the BA web site froze 2 or 3 times and said unable to continue on line check in. When I finally was able to continue with on line check in, a seat, randomly, had been selected - certainly not by me I remember thinking this was strange. I also could not then move the seat, so my son could sit with my family (on a different booking). The rest of us were able to select seating for no extra charge in the normal way so it not occur to me my son's seat was for an added fee. I did not see any message that I would be charged or asked to give payment instructions. I had no idea until an email from BA arrived several days after the flight saying it had charged my credit card account.
I would call BA up and explain that you did not intentionally select any seats and that you had issues with the website. I can't say I've heard of this before and it is hard to prove that you did not select a seat as the system seems to think you did, but it never hurts to try.

Originally Posted by haylefarm
Same point again. Because there is no practical means for customers to preserve a record of each on line choice made, if the system has a hiccup or glitch and does something without the customer's consent, there is never any way to challenge BA. This hardly seems fair.
I'll have to agree with you here. It is much easier to keep a record of actions you take than those you don't take. However, this is not a very common problem. Most people actually just click thru without reading and then complain. Not saying this is true in this case, but for most reports it is.

Originally Posted by haylefarm
The CR people I spoke with could only read from their set hymn sheet, were totally unable to grasp the legal significance of the absence of customer consent, and generally seemed to not care in the least about loss of goodwill. So if I decide to take my companys business elsewhere, I guess they wont mind that either.
Well, the fact of the matter is that you PA did consent. I refuse to believe that BA didn't have the check box which you must tick to move the booking process forward.

Again, you are the lawyer, not your PA. If you want to be 100% sure of all the terms and conditions, I suggest you book the ticket yourself instead of asking someone else to do so.
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