DSA

Hi,

Sorry for the long post, but I am new to Avios redemptions (to date I have only redeemed once, to Europe in Economy, when the scheme was Airmiles) and am thinking about redeeming for a possible trip to New York, ideally in Business Class, and need some advice please.

I am trying to work out what would be the best use of my miles, vouchers and cash - and there are a lot of options available! Without Avios I would just purchase a standard Economy fare, cheapest I could find to maximise value, e.g. £474.85 on BA when I recently searched, but I see my Avios as an opportunity to try out Business class travel and travel in a bit more style and comfort. I would pay a bit more to travel in a better class if I had to pay in full, but certainly not the thousands the Club World fare is normally priced at.

I currently have around 60,000 Avios, but have recently ramped up my collection, notably by taking out the Lloyds Avios Rewards card (with double Amex Avios for 6 months), i.e. 2.5 per £1, and the upgrade voucher after spending £7000 (which I should hopefully do by the time I may wish to travel). For the purposes of below please also assume that I will have upped my balance to 80,000 Avios by this time.

I have never travelled business class nor been in an airline lounge, so I am a little unsure as to the best value here (N.B. the costs below are for a random "cheapest" flight via the BA low fare finder as at 12/12/13 when I undertook my initial comparison, which shouldn't have changed too much).

Option 0 (for reference): BA Club World return, £2562.85

Option 1: Standard booking via Avios on BA Club World, Cost 80000 Avios + £528.85 TFC i.e. 1000 Avios = £25.43

Option 2: Use upgrade voucher on BA: 60000 Avios + £528.85 TFC + 2x Voucher, i.e. 1000 Avios = £33.90

Option 3: Purchase WT+ direct from BA and U/G using Avios: 20000 Avios + £899.85 Flight + £106 TFC (WT+ -> CW), i.e. 1000 Avios = £77.85.

[N.B. In reality Avios saving on these options as also collect points for TFC paid on credit card, and also Avios for the full-fare WT+ flight on option 3].

With the above options I believe I may also be able to include a free (or low cost when considering TFC) UK connection on the return leg for a date up to year after returning to London.

Option 4: Aer Lingus Dublin - Boston and transfer to/from New York somehow - 50000 Avios + TFC (<£100) + Positioning costs (although extra value of trip in seeing Dublin and Boston). Risk of missing connection.

Option 5: Air Berlin, Berlin - New York, 80000 + TFC (~£65) + Positioning to Berlin (extra value in seeing Berlin). Risk of missing connection.

Option 6: A combination of 4 and 5: UK-Dublin-Boston-New York-Berlin-UK. I believe this is the cheaper direction for TFC. Cost 40000+25000 Avios plus TFC (£?) and positioning costs. Risk of missing connection. Lots of cities to see!

Ultimately I am asking a few questions:

- Is BA Club World plus Heathrow/New York lounges significantly better than Aer Lingus/Air Berlin - i.e. ~£400 better.
- Is this a good way to use the upgrade vouchers I should receive within the year from the credit card?
- My Avios value calculations are flawed in that they relate to the full fare which I wouldn't normally pay: how would you suggest I value my Avios in the above options?

Alternatively you may suggest I would be better to spend the points on something else entirely! It has taken me many years to accumulate my Avios points to this level and I don't want to waste them on a poor redemption, so value your advice greatly.

Thanks in advance.

LondonAndy

Welcome.

If it was me I'd stick with BA rather than Aer Lingus/Air Berlin. Generally the best use of Avios is acknowledged to be UUA (upgrade using Avios) and I would suggest buying WT+ and using the Avios to upgrade. That way you can have 4 trips using 20,000 each time to upgrade, rather than 1 trip using all of them.

However, if the upgrade vouchers are going to go to waste then why not use them instead, and you'll still have enough to use 1 UUA another time.

Enjoy the trip whichever you end up doing.

FlyerChrisK

As much as I love "aspirational" travel, you should keep this in mind when trying to make a decision.

You can take Amtrak between New York and Boston. If you don't mind spending about 3.5 hours on the train, you can get tickets on the Northeast Regional for $49 each way. (Acela starts at $120 or so months in advance and is only marginally faster.)

While I've never tried (or heard of) a booking with EI and BA on a single ticket, since you have to call into the call center to book this anyways, could you add on your LON-DUB segment onto the same ticket, so you'll have protection if you misconnect?

I'd suggest reading reviews and making a judgment for yourself.

The LHR lounges are "nice" but nothing I'd shell out any substantial amount of cash for.

EI has angled lie-flat business class seats (http://boardingarea.com/onemileatati...ton-to-dublin/). For say £400 price difference, I'll happily take an angled lie flat seat.

What would you pay?

To give my perspective, let's start with a little background. To use my systemwide upgrades on United, I have to book into a sufficiently high fare class ("W") to obtain an upgrade from coach to business class. I've happily done so in the past, paying ~$100 to upgrade IAD-LHR (6h flight time) and ~$200 to upgrade HKG-SFO (12h flight time). Grumble as I might about flying coach, I'm not sure I'd pay substantially more cash to fly business class above and beyond the cost of my coach ticket.

Somehow though, on airlines where fuel surcharges aren't an issue on award tickets, I'll irrationally redeem for first class (paying hundreds of dollars "worth" of points in the process). I just have a slightly more visceral reaction to paying a substantial premium for something that was marketed as "free."

I've gotten some decent value for short hops inside the US on Alaska and American, but these are unlikely to be useful for your use case.

Honestly, I'd happily book some BOS-DUB trips in EI's business class for myself, I just haven't found the time to do so when I've been busy trying to burn all of my other frequent flier miles.

LupineChemist

Don't forget us down here. There is IB from MAD that should all be on the new business class to JFK with low surcharges as well.

Swiss Tony

If you need a finger in the air valuation for Avios, you can't go much wrong with 1.35p. That's the current promotional price you can buy them at.

On the basis you can pick up sale fares to NY for around £1500, this makes sense. 1.35 x 80,000 plus £500 of taxes is as near as matters £1500.

If you try to put a LON-DUB and DUB-BOS flight on the same ticket, you will have to pay the UK departure tax, thereby mitigating much of the benefit. You'd be better off flying to Dublin the previous night and staying in an airport hotel.

corporate-wage-slave

Welcome DSA and welcome to Flyertalk and the British Airways forum. I can see from your forensic approach to this that you are very much in the right place, and I hope that you can continue to post here, since I suspect you have a lot that you contribute to this resource. Welcome again.

I am not quite sure about upgrade vouchers, but I presume that's for BA metal? Either way, the general view is that CW to F is a good use, and WTP to CW is quite a good use. But then you have to take account of your actual travel wishes and timetable, many such vouchers seem to expire.

I wouldn't worry about the connections per se, you would be rebooked if you ticketed yourself on one PNR, but of course the more connections the greater the risk - certainly of delay, maybe of downgrade, irrespective of airline.

I would say the T5 experience, lounges and service on BA is some way ahead of AB for sure, and Aer Lingus to a more arguable degree. The best way is of course LCY to JFK..... I think only you can say how much that is worth and the opportunity cost that arises. Personally in your shoes I'd try to do LCY, definitely worth paying extra for that.

rapidex

Nobody has mentioned LCY-JFK.The Airbus a318 flies from LCY-SNN-JFK.During the stop in SNN BA001 pre-clears US immigration and customs,and arrives in JFK as a domestic flight.Not so with BA003,but if you are considering an all avios redemption,this is a nice option.All business class 32 seats,good service.

aceman

for me, option 3 wins, why blow all your avios in one go?

HOWEVER!


once you get to 80k avios with the lloyds card, apply for the BA fee paying amex card and get another 20k avios sign up bonus, then fly first class instead!

After you've spent £10k you get a 241 companion voucher so you could take someone with you for no additional avios (just extra taxes etc)

nux

I would not use this as a baseline for comparison if you would not pay this normally, and because during sales it could be closer to £1500.

The Lloyds upgrade voucher I believe must be used through avios.com, can only upgrade from ET to CE, WT to WTP or WTP to CW.
A long distance euro flight upgrading to ET to CE may save a similar amount of avios, as you effectively save 50% going ET-CE rather than 25% going WTP-CW.

Around 1p is generally a good baseline. Make sure you include the avios you would earn in either a full revenue ticket or UuA ticket.

Booking on a single ticket would trigger APD for the longhaul journey, so it would wipe out a lot of the savings by using EI.

If you include the avios earnt on the revenue ticket, the avios value will fall much closer to 1p.

I assume he is talking about the Lloyds voucher, which has quite a few conditions including that it cannot be used for CW to F.

Raffles

You cannot put a BA and AB reward on the same ticket or it triggers long haul business class Air Passenger Duty which adds £130 or so to the tax.

AB is fine, I did NYC to Berlin twice last year, once with the new fully flat seat. Its not CW but its hugely cheaper. Remember that the return is overnight so you'll be asleep anyway!

If going from London, I would second the city flight out purely for the experience, as long as it isn't too far out of the way. Do the one that does immigration in Shannon.

DSA

Thank you for the responses so far, which I need to read again and think about, however:

The key T&Cs of the Lloyds Avios Upgrade Voucher are as follows:

5. Only bookings paid for using full Avios are eligible to be upgraded using the voucher. Avios and Money bookings and bookings paid for fully in cash are excluded.

6. The upgrade voucher will be valid for 12 months from the date of issue. Your booking must be made within the 12 month period, after which time the voucher will expire and will not be replaced or extended.

7. Upgrade vouchers can be used to upgrade either 2 one way flights or 1 return journey booked on a British Airways main line service. British Airways codeshare flights are excluded. Flights from London City airport are excluded.

8. Using an upgrade voucher enables customers to upgrade their booking by one cabin class. Customers can upgrade a booking to the class above as follows:
from Euro Traveller to Club Europe;
from World Traveller to World Traveller Plus; or
from World Traveller Plus to Club World.

Bookings cannot be upgraded to a First Class Cabin.

9. Airline taxes, fees and charges or Reward Flight Saver (RFS) cost if applicable must be paid on all tickets booked. Customers who upgrade their journey using the upgrade voucher will have to pay the increase in airline taxes, fees and charges or increased RFS cost applicable to the cabin that the customer upgrades to.

For option 3 a flight booked in WT+ (Blue membership level) earns 4323 (LHR-JFK), presumably per direction. In addition the costs of £1005.85 would earn 1257 Avios at the 1.25 rate. Therefore this option costs 10097 Avios net. Assuming a CW fare was available at £1500 this would value 1 Avios at 4.89p. But you do have to spend over a £1000 for the ticket in the first place, which is not an insignificant sum.

As noted by others adding the UK leg onto the same ticket would negate a lot of the savings in terms of charges, and I don't think in this case you would easily be rebooked, but what are the implications of missing the connection - would you forfeit the Avios and cash paid? Even arranging to arrive the night before may not be enough security as there could be weather delays etc. outside the traveller's control.

oscietra

DSA I really enjoyed your post - it reminded me of my first few forays into mileage collecting when all of a sudden I realised I has a decent stash which I could actually do something useful with!

I'd recommend you read this thread, which had a very similar question and received some good answers:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...-cw-cwlcy.html

You can mix cabins, so could outbound in Club and back in Premium Economy, or vice versa, if you were taking some time to reach 80k.

On this route you should consider

- 787 from Newark
- BA's 36 seat A318 "Private Jet" service from JFK to London City CWLCY
- upper deck 747 Club World
- day flights exUS to maximise the service experience on board
- BA's subsidiary www.flyopenskies.com 757 from JFK to Paris (where you may have fewer charges not sure. Note this uses the "older" club world flat bed).

Make sure you schedule your flights to leave plenty of time for the full lounge/spa experience at JFK and LHR T5.

If you can, this might be an opportunity to sample F as you're almost there - see if you can pick up any tips to earn quickly the extra avios needed on flyertalk. Shouldn't be too hard.

Too many choices to say what I'd do in your situation, but assuming you'd be restricted to J/80,000 avios I'd probably stick to JFK departures for the better lounges and spa, and choose an early evening 747 flight which wasn't a "sleeper service" so you get to be awake on board for some of the trip OR opt for CWLCY into London City which departs a little later and take advantage of the pre-flight dining.

In bound, I'd recommend you try LHR T5 for the spa and lounges, and get on a 787 to Newark, or if you didn't fly on the 747 Upper Deck outbound, then try for it in the inbound.

Considerably more fun if you could stretch to F on the inbound, so you get to sample the Concorde Room, and lounge surf the F and Galleries lounges on the same visit as well as sampling the food and service on board while you're awake to enjoy it:

Swiss Tony

Indeed, and that's why using Avios to upgrade from WT+ to Club World is generally seen as the best way to get value.

If you're comparing like for like, in the above scenario you spend 10,000 avios (because you get 10,000 back) and pay £1,000 for the WT+ ticket. For a straight redemption, you pay £500 in taxes anyway but lay out eight times the number of miles.

The thing that's missing throughout however is the woeful award availability. I looked at trying to get to a conference next month and there's nothing at all that comes close to being useful. This makes the comparisons even harder - it's all well and good saving up the miles but if you can' be flexible with your dates then you risk being disappointed anyway.

tangey

As a variation on this, Aer Lingus Dublin->JFK. Will cost the 80K plus around £80. Spending 20K more avios (i.e. the same as flying from LHR), but getting you direct to JFK.

Frenske

Don't forget that you still earn Avios and Tier points on the paid ticket when upgrading. In that light using avios to upgrade (WT+->CW) look even better than using Avios for CW directly.