I was wondering if anyone could help me with the answer to this.
Mrs Boffin and I were downgraded from First to Club World on a flight from St Lucia to London the other day.
We had booked the flight with 150k Avios, a companion ticket and had paid £1073 in taxes.
As 'a gesture of goodwill' we were each given a pre-paid card with £500 on it in St. Lucia
I phoned up BA to enquire about getting the difference in Avios (25k) back and was told the matter would be "dealt with"
Yesterday I received a receipt for £400.80, which states that "... in accordance with the terms and conditions applicable to your booking there is no Avios refund against your tickets(s)"
I appreciate that BA has currently given us back £327.80 more than we paid for the tickets, but can anyone explain:
i) What T&Cs mean BA do not give me back the Avios?
ii) What would the basis of the £400.80 calculation be?
iii) Under Article 10 of EU Regulation 261/2004 am I not entitled to 75% of the price of the ticket?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boffin
I appreciate that BA has currently given us back £327.80 more than we paid for the tickets, but can anyone explain:
i) What T&Cs mean BA do not give me back the Avios?
ii) What would the basis of the £400.80 calculation be?
iii) Under Article 10 of EU Regulation 261/2004 am I not entitled to 75% of the price of the ticket?
So, have got this right? You paid £1073, 150k Avios and a 241 voucher. You got back £1400, no Avios and no voucher. So net expenditure was 150K Avios, the voucher and £327 subsidy from BA, in return for First one way (presumably) and CW the other? Incidentally, did they offer to fly you in First the next day or some other route such as via MIA? Not that it makes a difference.
Now I have to say this looks quite a good deal to me. But yes, strictly speaking I guess you should have got three quarters of the ticket back, which suggest the net expenditure should have been £268 from you, 37.5 Avios, and a notional 25% of a voucher. So it could be argued you swapped the voucher and 113k Avios for £600. It guess it's your view if that is fair or not, but if you don't think it's a good deal then keep pressing BA. The relevant bit of the regulations does say "ticket", but I imagine their lawyers may try to suggest that was pro-rata and split your expenditure into 2 sections, though again it doesn't say that in the regs.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave
...so it could be argued you swapped the voucher and 113k Avios for £600. It guess it's your view if that is fair or not, but if you don't think it's a good deal then keep pressing BA.
Not sure I kept up with the maths there, but 113k and a 241 are worth MUCH more than £600 (IMHO of course)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedVee
Not sure I kept up with the maths there, but 113k and a 241 are worth MUCH more than £600 (IMHO of course)
What about on top of an already flown F and a CW return.
Also how much something is worth is not the same thing as the value of something. Worth can be subjective whereas the cash value of something can be completely different.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HIDDY
Ah the old EU Regulations debate again....when will they ever make them easy for the general travelling public to understand.
Easy, they wont
cs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boffin
Thanks RedVee. I'll take a look
Here's my third post. Six years already! - I'm more of a reader than a writer, but how time flies
Congratulations on your third post
out of interest, despite the downgrade on the return flight, how was your holiday ?
Can i assume that the downgrade was as a result of an equipment change from 4 class 772 to 3 class ? or was F overbooked ?
cs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chistery
So are reward flights likely to be downgraded first, as they are seen as the lowest refund in compensation terms?
Well we have had 2 similar stories in short succession have we not? In reality I suspect they are protecting "paid for" and status passengers first. So I guess the next in line are the 2-4-1 redemptions, which may not always be a good idea but it can't be easy to come up with "fair" rules in this area.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedVee
Not sure I kept up with the maths there, but 113k and a 241 are worth MUCH more than £600 (IMHO of course)
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsmeitisss
What about on top of an already flown F and a CW return.
The question about compensation for downgrade is not dependent on how worthy the OPs case is, or what you might think is morally appropriate. So whether they have already flown one leg in F or not the legislation is clear they are due 75% of the ticket price. Had they paid in cash this would have been in the region of £3990 and £7770 (the current top and bottom prices including taxes etc for a First return to UVF). Whilst the 75% figure seems to be quite unfair on the airlines, let's not forget this legislation is intended to ensure we as customers are not put in the position of being involuntarily downgraded in the first place. If it were at no cost to the airline, what impetus is there for them to improve?
Wording in the legislation already defines "free" tickets as those not available to the general public, and does not include reward tickets.
BA have currently offered the OP £1400 in total and no miles back, wheras if it had been a paid for ticket the minimum would have been £3990.
The one grey area, as people on the other thread have pointed out, is how to place a value on the 241 - e,g, how can you have a refund of 75% - (maybe issue it back as a one way rather than return to reflect the fact it is 50% used?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsmeitisss
Also how much something is worth is not the same thing as the value of something. Worth can be subjective whereas the cash value of something can be completely different.
Don't disagree - but it is hard to come up with a way of spending 113k miles and 241 that offers worse value than what the OP has been offered - unless you forgo the 241 and convert the rest to hotel points
On a more general point, I have scoured the Exec Club T&Cs and can't find anything that says miles will not be recredited (then again involuntary downgrade is not covered at all)- only if the member cancels within 24 hours. Nor is there anything on a couple of miles redeption tickets I'm holding currently. So when they say terms and conditions applicable to your booking what are they referring to?
The question about compensation for downgrade is not dependent on how worthy the OPs case is, or what you might think is morally appropriate. So whether they have already flown one leg in F or not the legislation is clear they are due 75% of the ticket price. Had they paid in cash this would have been in the region of £3990 and £7770 (the current top and bottom prices including taxes etc for a First return to UVF). Whilst the 75% figure seems to be quite unfair on the airlines, let's not forget this legislation is intended to ensure we as customers are not put in the position of being involuntarily downgraded in the first place. If it were at no cost to the airline, what impetus is there for them to improve?
Wording in the legislation already defines "free" tickets as those not available to the general public, and does not include reward tickets.
BA have currently offered the OP £1400 in total and no miles back, wheras if it had been a paid for ticket the minimum would have been £3990.
The one grey area, as people on the other thread have pointed out, is how to place a value on the 241 - e,g, how can you have a refund of 75% - (maybe issue it back as a one way rather than return to reflect the fact it is 50% used?)
Frequent flyer award tickets are specifically covered under the legislation so for a booking made with miles for base fare and cash for taxes and "charges" , a 75% refund is clearly due
I don't see a 2-4-1 as a grey area ; it appears to me as being not covered by the regulation , so other than a refund of any tax/charges difference beyond that would seem to be goodwill.
The free ticket on a 2-4-1 provides a companion ticket in same class of travel as the main award ticket so once that has been compensated that would seem reasonable to me
To know for certain would involve trying to make a claim on the 2-4-1 and see whether it is ruled to be exempt or not
I would suggest that the OP writes to BA requiring that they provide a 75% reimbursement of miles in accordance with EU261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Noble
I don't see a 2-4-1 as a grey area .....[snip] To know for certain would involve trying to make a claim on the 2-4-1 and see whether it is ruled to be exempt or not
Ah, but when is a reward ticket not a reward ticket? Is one booked with miles/avios different to one booked with a voucher? Each of them has a cost of accrual (i.e. they are not really free). A UK BA 241 on a premium Amex could be costed at the £150 card fee plus, say £200 - the average rate a cashback card might pay on the £10k spend needed to trigger it - making about £350. Or the same 2% on the fee free version but with 20k spend would be £400.
You are right though, unless someone makes a successful claim this is uncertain.
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