B747 Crew Sleeping Quarters
Feb 23, 2011, 2:11 pm
#16
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Feb 23, 2011, 2:23 pm
#17
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Feb 23, 2011, 2:25 pm
#18
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Feb 23, 2011, 2:26 pm
#19
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I really don't understand the big deal. How do most people feel when they get off a long flight, and they've had a seat all the way?
Feb 23, 2011, 2:30 pm
#20
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There are only 4 seats, but 7 or 8 crew on a break at one time, so if the seats are all in use, the only place to be is on a bunk. But that does not guarantee sleep.
I really don't understand the big deal. How do most people feel when they get off a long flight, and they've had a seat all the way?
I really don't understand the big deal. How do most people feel when they get off a long flight, and they've had a seat all the way?
Simply a question, framed, as I re-read it again in a perfectly reasonable manner.Thank you for your factual response - it is genuinely informative, and I appreciate it.
Feb 23, 2011, 2:41 pm
#21
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Also, just because the longest BA flight (which I think is longer than 12hours due to the SIN flight and also the one that stops through South America), does not mean that crew are not maxed-out and need some sleep. They may also by doing eg LHR-JFK-LHR in one shift. Also, crew work at ~8000ft pressure altitude with very low humidity, which makes you more tired (and is why you feel tired and dehydrated after a flight).
From a passenger perspective, I would much rather they had 40winks and were nice and friendly when I woke up, than stay awake and be a right grouchbag.
It is likely that EASA mentions it somewhere. Someone else may be able to give a better answer than me, but its all in CAP371 (a manual thicker than the bible), and there is no definitive answer (so the below examples are not prescriptive, otherwise it wouldn't be a thick bible and have a team in crew rostering doing the maths), eg:
Report is 06.30 (local) and operating 2 sectors, up to maximum of 13hrs 15mins. This can be increased by two hours ex UK and three hours ex overseas at captains discretion.
But if report is at 09.00 (local) this changes to 14hrs 15mins with the same extensions.
Report is 05.30am you can only do 11hrs 15mins with the same extensions.
The maximum you can work is 15hrs on a single sector reporting between 08.00 and 12.59pm with two hour extension ex UK and 3 ex overseas at captains discretion. Anything additional would have to be positioning duties which do not form part of flying duty period but count towards your on duty hours and subsequent rest.
Last edited by globalste; Feb 23, 2011 at 2:47 pm
Feb 23, 2011, 2:50 pm
#22
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A 12-hour flight does not mean the crew is just working 12 hours...
But to clarify what Globalste has written, flight time limitations are quite different when there are 'heavy crewed' with in-flight relief, in case some people are wondering how they can operate the likes of SIN within the given limits. (By the way which version of CAP 371 are you looking at, because the figures are different in the version I have but mine may be out of date.)
And the bible has more pages than CAP 371 or EU-OPS Subpart Q (and as an aside, their limits are quite different).
But to clarify what Globalste has written, flight time limitations are quite different when there are 'heavy crewed' with in-flight relief, in case some people are wondering how they can operate the likes of SIN within the given limits. (By the way which version of CAP 371 are you looking at, because the figures are different in the version I have but mine may be out of date.)
And the bible has more pages than CAP 371 or EU-OPS Subpart Q (and as an aside, their limits are quite different).
Last edited by LTN Phobia; Feb 23, 2011 at 3:08 pm
Feb 23, 2011, 3:02 pm
#23
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12hours flight does not equal 12hour shift. A 12 hour flight is highly likely to be a 14hour shift.
Also, just because the longest BA flight (which I think is longer than 12hours due to the SIN flight and also the one that stops through South America), does not mean that crew are not maxed-out and need some sleep. They may also by doing eg LHR-JFK-LHR in one shift. Also, crew work at ~8000ft pressure altitude with very low humidity, which makes you more tired (and is why you feel tired and dehydrated after a flight).
From a passenger perspective, I would much rather they had 40winks and were nice and friendly when I woke up, than stay awake and be a right grouchbag.
It is likely that EASA mentions it somewhere. Someone else may be able to give a better answer than me, but its all in CAP371 (a manual thicker than the bible), and there is no definitive answer (so the below examples are not prescriptive, otherwise it wouldn't be a thick bible and have a team in crew rostering doing the maths), eg:
Report is 06.30 (local) and operating 2 sectors, up to maximum of 13hrs 15mins. This can be increased by two hours ex UK and three hours ex overseas at captains discretion.
But if report is at 09.00 (local) this changes to 14hrs 15mins with the same extensions.
Report is 05.30am you can only do 11hrs 15mins with the same extensions.
The maximum you can work is 15hrs on a single sector reporting between 08.00 and 12.59pm with two hour extension ex UK and 3 ex overseas at captains discretion. Anything additional would have to be positioning duties which do not form part of flying duty period but count towards your on duty hours and subsequent rest.
Also, just because the longest BA flight (which I think is longer than 12hours due to the SIN flight and also the one that stops through South America), does not mean that crew are not maxed-out and need some sleep. They may also by doing eg LHR-JFK-LHR in one shift. Also, crew work at ~8000ft pressure altitude with very low humidity, which makes you more tired (and is why you feel tired and dehydrated after a flight).
From a passenger perspective, I would much rather they had 40winks and were nice and friendly when I woke up, than stay awake and be a right grouchbag.
It is likely that EASA mentions it somewhere. Someone else may be able to give a better answer than me, but its all in CAP371 (a manual thicker than the bible), and there is no definitive answer (so the below examples are not prescriptive, otherwise it wouldn't be a thick bible and have a team in crew rostering doing the maths), eg:
Report is 06.30 (local) and operating 2 sectors, up to maximum of 13hrs 15mins. This can be increased by two hours ex UK and three hours ex overseas at captains discretion.
But if report is at 09.00 (local) this changes to 14hrs 15mins with the same extensions.
Report is 05.30am you can only do 11hrs 15mins with the same extensions.
The maximum you can work is 15hrs on a single sector reporting between 08.00 and 12.59pm with two hour extension ex UK and 3 ex overseas at captains discretion. Anything additional would have to be positioning duties which do not form part of flying duty period but count towards your on duty hours and subsequent rest.
True story ^
Feb 23, 2011, 3:53 pm
#24
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May I add that as a passenger Im very interested and intrigued with CC & pilot shift patterns. it is fascinating especially if you work in an office all day!!
Are there fixed patterns ie; long haul and are the rotas within that category roughly the same length?
PS. do any commercial airliners have a three person flight deck anymore?
Are there fixed patterns ie; long haul and are the rotas within that category roughly the same length?
PS. do any commercial airliners have a three person flight deck anymore?
Feb 23, 2011, 4:23 pm
#25
Join Date: Feb 2010
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Yes, we do have some routes that operate with 3 pilots (aka "heavy" crew).
In regards to bunks, rest and whether "normal" (ground based*) people think we need them or not: There are duties where bunks enable the crew to operate the whole way to destination, as opposed to stopping on the way to change crew. Sometimes, we don't strictly need bunks, but they're available on the aircraft we're operating that day. Sometimes we get a short break, sometimes longer.
Whether people agree with crew having bunks or not is by the by. Trust me, on some routes, it's tempting to curl up in the bunks from the word go and stay there the whole flight...
*by ground based I mean anyone who doesn't work on an aircraft in "action".
In regards to bunks, rest and whether "normal" (ground based*) people think we need them or not: There are duties where bunks enable the crew to operate the whole way to destination, as opposed to stopping on the way to change crew. Sometimes, we don't strictly need bunks, but they're available on the aircraft we're operating that day. Sometimes we get a short break, sometimes longer.
Whether people agree with crew having bunks or not is by the by. Trust me, on some routes, it's tempting to curl up in the bunks from the word go and stay there the whole flight...
*by ground based I mean anyone who doesn't work on an aircraft in "action".
Feb 23, 2011, 4:28 pm
#26
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Yes, we do have some routes that operate with 3 pilots (aka "heavy" crew).
In regards to bunks, rest and whether "normal" (ground based*) people think we need them or not: There are duties where bunks enable the crew to operate the whole way to destination, as opposed to stopping on the way to change crew. Sometimes, we don't strictly need bunks, but they're available on the aircraft we're operating that day. Sometimes we get a short break, sometimes longer.
Whether people agree with crew having bunks or not is by the by. Trust me, on some routes, it's tempting to curl up in the bunks from the word go and stay there the whole flight...
*by ground based I mean anyone who doesn't work on an aircraft in "action".
In regards to bunks, rest and whether "normal" (ground based*) people think we need them or not: There are duties where bunks enable the crew to operate the whole way to destination, as opposed to stopping on the way to change crew. Sometimes, we don't strictly need bunks, but they're available on the aircraft we're operating that day. Sometimes we get a short break, sometimes longer.
Whether people agree with crew having bunks or not is by the by. Trust me, on some routes, it's tempting to curl up in the bunks from the word go and stay there the whole flight...
*by ground based I mean anyone who doesn't work on an aircraft in "action".
Last edited by sweeper20; Feb 23, 2011 at 5:02 pm
Feb 23, 2011, 5:57 pm
#27
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Has anyone thought that the fact that beds are present might simply be due to the physical limitations of the space? Trying to get 8 seats into the area above the cabin in the tail seems like it would probably be impossible. Beds make much more sense because you can stack them on top of each other.
In terms of the A380 for example, for Qantas and SQ the crew rest area is in the cargo hold. In order to minimise the amount of floor area used (and therefore maximise the amount of cargo carrying space) it makes sense to provide a vertical arrangement, stacking beds on top of each other again.
As others have said, crew do not just work for the duration of the flight. For normal crew, they have to check in, attend the safety briefing and then perform their duties on the aircraft. For managers, they have to check in, catch up on mails, prepare the safety briefing, prepare the crew assignments and pre-flight paperwork, give the safety briefing, lead the crew on to the aircraft, greet the passengers, conduct the service, and then see all of the passengers off the aircraft, hand over to the ground crew, gather up the crew and then it's on the bus to the hotel, wait until everyone has their room assignments and then they can hit the sack. If there are ground issues, crew may have to work much longer than their rostered hours, helping passengers, serving during any delay etc. It is not just the sector time, there is a whole lot more involved.
For a 13 hour flight this could be around 16 hours or so, I don't think that many people would expect to work for that length of time without a break.
It is quite likely that it could be 8 or so hours before crew actually get a break, then it's 2 hours or so and they are up again.
In terms of the A380 for example, for Qantas and SQ the crew rest area is in the cargo hold. In order to minimise the amount of floor area used (and therefore maximise the amount of cargo carrying space) it makes sense to provide a vertical arrangement, stacking beds on top of each other again.
As others have said, crew do not just work for the duration of the flight. For normal crew, they have to check in, attend the safety briefing and then perform their duties on the aircraft. For managers, they have to check in, catch up on mails, prepare the safety briefing, prepare the crew assignments and pre-flight paperwork, give the safety briefing, lead the crew on to the aircraft, greet the passengers, conduct the service, and then see all of the passengers off the aircraft, hand over to the ground crew, gather up the crew and then it's on the bus to the hotel, wait until everyone has their room assignments and then they can hit the sack. If there are ground issues, crew may have to work much longer than their rostered hours, helping passengers, serving during any delay etc. It is not just the sector time, there is a whole lot more involved.
For a 13 hour flight this could be around 16 hours or so, I don't think that many people would expect to work for that length of time without a break.
It is quite likely that it could be 8 or so hours before crew actually get a break, then it's 2 hours or so and they are up again.
Feb 23, 2011, 6:20 pm
#28
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but to infer that cabin crews work in some unique situation (ie they are the only ones of the all working folk to have long hours) is a little silly. By that logic, a surgeon should be napping several times a day, as his/her job is pretty important - they can be working long hours (some sugeries can go for 8+ hours of very intense concentration) they might work all day and be on call all night, etc. But as we know, nap time is certainly not the norm in hospitals.
Has anyone thought that the fact that beds are present might simply be due to the physical limitations of the space? Trying to get 8 seats into the area above the cabin in the tail seems like it would probably be impossible. Beds make much more sense because you can stack them on top of each other.
Feb 23, 2011, 6:22 pm
#29
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Has anyone thought that the fact that beds are present might simply be due to the physical limitations of the space? Trying to get 8 seats into the area above the cabin in the tail seems like it would probably be impossible. Beds make much more sense because you can stack them on top of each other.
In terms of the A380 for example, for Qantas and SQ the crew rest area is in the cargo hold. In order to minimise the amount of floor area used (and therefore maximise the amount of cargo carrying space) it makes sense to provide a vertical arrangement, stacking beds on top of each other again.
As others have said, crew do not just work for the duration of the flight. For normal crew, they have to check in, attend the safety briefing and then perform their duties on the aircraft. For managers, they have to check in, catch up on mails, prepare the safety briefing, prepare the crew assignments and pre-flight paperwork, give the safety briefing, lead the crew on to the aircraft, greet the passengers, conduct the service, and then see all of the passengers off the aircraft, hand over to the ground crew, gather up the crew and then it's on the bus to the hotel, wait until everyone has their room assignments and then they can hit the sack. If there are ground issues, crew may have to work much longer than their rostered hours, helping passengers, serving during any delay etc. It is not just the sector time, there is a whole lot more involved.
For a 13 hour flight this could be around 16 hours or so, I don't think that many people would expect to work for that length of time without a break.
It is quite likely that it could be 8 or so hours before crew actually get a break, then it's 2 hours or so and they are up again.
In terms of the A380 for example, for Qantas and SQ the crew rest area is in the cargo hold. In order to minimise the amount of floor area used (and therefore maximise the amount of cargo carrying space) it makes sense to provide a vertical arrangement, stacking beds on top of each other again.
As others have said, crew do not just work for the duration of the flight. For normal crew, they have to check in, attend the safety briefing and then perform their duties on the aircraft. For managers, they have to check in, catch up on mails, prepare the safety briefing, prepare the crew assignments and pre-flight paperwork, give the safety briefing, lead the crew on to the aircraft, greet the passengers, conduct the service, and then see all of the passengers off the aircraft, hand over to the ground crew, gather up the crew and then it's on the bus to the hotel, wait until everyone has their room assignments and then they can hit the sack. If there are ground issues, crew may have to work much longer than their rostered hours, helping passengers, serving during any delay etc. It is not just the sector time, there is a whole lot more involved.
For a 13 hour flight this could be around 16 hours or so, I don't think that many people would expect to work for that length of time without a break.
It is quite likely that it could be 8 or so hours before crew actually get a break, then it's 2 hours or so and they are up again.
Feb 23, 2011, 6:24 pm
#30
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No doubt thats true, but try to explain that to the one patient that has died and his family...I'm sure they don't really care how many others he/she saved. Thats kind of a silly comparison if you are the one killed. "Sorry your Dad is dead, but really it could have been worse, I could have been a tired pilot and killed many more people. That should make you feel better."