on a public forum accuse someone of a particular crime ie fraud
I did not accuse anyone of anything. I merely stated that falsifying a foreign government ID number in order to obtain services could be considered fraud. (And in fact, even the website that most people use to emit such a false CPF number clearly states that use is not for such purposes.) It is unimportant what business transaction the number is to be used for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3544quebec
...you claim is illegal you have provided no information as to what law is being transgressed.
I am not a Brazilian lawyer and hence not able to quote chapter and verse off the top of my head, but am advised by several who are that this is indeed breaking Brazilian law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3544quebec
which is the more unethical and immoral?
Of course, breaking the law, as one does when using a false government issued ID number for a business transaction with a company governed by that same government's laws.
Too bad there are some out there who believe that there own personal convenience trumps all and are proud to trumpet this on a public forum.
This is commonly called fraud, . Just because an issue wasn't made of it in your case doesn't mean that is not fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VidaNaPraia
I did not accuse anyone of anything. I merely stated that falsifying a foreign government ID number in order to obtain services could be considered fraud.
I clearly misinterpreted the first statement to be more than saying something could be considered fraud
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VidaNaPraia
I am not a Brazilian lawyer and hence not able to quote chapter and verse off the top of my head, but am advised by several who are that this is indeed breaking Brazilian law.
Ok, if we ever get something more definitive than that, I'd be happy to discuss whether or not it is breaking the law and if so if it is or is not moral. In the absence of any actual facts on the matter I'll just go back to posting to the topic of this thread: discount fares on Brasilian airlines
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Too bad there are some out there who believe that there own personal convenience trumps all and are proud to trumpet this on a public forum.
Can you point to where this was trumpeted. My recollection is that you requested information about whether discount fares could be booked by non-Brasilians and I provided that information following which you decided to accuse me of a criminal act and acting immorally .
Too bad there are some out there who believe that their own beliefs and moral perspective is the only valid and acceptable approach and trumpet there own opinions/beliefs as fact.
I'll leave it to the readers of these postings each to decide for her/himself the morality of the situation vs. the conveneince. I imagine most would have better sense than to commit such a fraudulent act, even in the absence of the specifically cited Brazilian law code.
CPF was developed as a control number to be used between each FEDERAL taxpayer and the Receita Federal. It was not conceived to be used as a general ID number, which is as it is used today. If you don't pay federal taxes for a number of years, your CPF will be inactivated and, as far as I know will be forfeited after a number of years inactive. It is not the equivalent of the US Social Security number, which acompanies a person from craddle to grave. For americans, the nearest correspondent would be a TIN (taxpayer id number) and which may or may not be the same as the SSI.
Business, other than financial (banks), originally were not allowed to demand to know your CPF but, as so many laws in Brazil, this one has been distorted and now CPF has a general use, not based on law, but on convenience, to the point that exempt persons fill a "tax exempt declaration" each year so that their CPFs do not get inactivated.
So, airlines and most business in Brazil that demand to know your CPF do not have the legal authority to do it; they just want to assign a unique ID to you. If you give them online your own created CPF, it is my understanding (but IANAL) that you are not commiting a crime, but assigning an ID to you and, perhaps, breaching a contract which was unilaterally imposed on you.
As the business asks you for a number (the CPF) that they are not entitled to demand, and you give a number (invented by you) that they interpret as the CPF, we have the traditional Brazilian 'jeitinho'. Deception? Yes. Fraud (civil) or crime? To me, No!
(The last paragraph supposes that you have not printed a fake CPF card to present if asked - this will be document fraud - nor will try to defraud payment)
Thanks NPF for filling in the blanks and providing some actual facts- much of what you said I suspected but as I didn't have the knowledge I didn't feel it appropriate to present my beliefs as fact.
It didn't seem to me any more immoral or illegal than when I have to fabricate a cell phone number for a website that requires one for no good reason (and I don't have a cell phone) or when on aa.com I need to Americanize my Australian postal code in order to get my credit card accepted for payment. Certainly deceptions but deceptions done solely to enable me to complete a transaction and with no other benefit gained by me or harm done to the vendor and not breaking any Ts+Cs restricting purchase based on nationality/residency.
One question I have is whether companies/organisations have real-time access to a database of CPFs and the names that they are attached to.
The reason I ask is that some websites actually do reject my fabricated CPF eg if trying to register for a conference in Brasil some require CPF and name to enter the registration site but recognise either that my CPF is not valid or that it is not a valid CPF/name combination.
One question I have is whether companies/organisations have real-time access to a database of CPFs and the names that they are attached to.
The reason I ask is that some websites actually do reject my fabricated CPF eg if trying to register for a conference in Brasil some require CPF and name to enter the registration site but recognise either that my CPF is not valid or that it is not a valid CPF/name combination.
Bending to a de facto usage of CPFs as universal Brazilian IDs (but without any change to the law) the Receita Federal has introduced a web page in which you can check name vs CPF (and if it is active/inactive/cancelled):
But I doubt that someone could match (automatically) the name and CPF you give to them, as every difference in how the name was written would invalidate the CPF. If you are generating a new CPF for each occasion, I would think more plausible that you have used a bad CPF (one generated by an incorrect algorithm).
What is interesting is that, when the CPF was introduced (1970's, if I remember correctly), it was considered a highly confidential number - I remember ads advising you to treat your CPF number with care; to not disclose it to strangers. Today, it's used everywhere: TAM's FF program gives points to a program named Multiplus, which uses your CPF for your number; my supermarket, which has a discount card, uses CPF to identify its patrons.
I'm always a little bewildered by the non-chalance with which we, Brazilians (including government officers) decide that some laws are to be respected while with others, well, you don't need to bother with them
If you don't pay federal taxes for a number of years, your CPF will be inactivated and, as far as I know will be forfeited after a number of years inactive.
You do not any longer forfeit your CPF number. They are now merely reactivating the original CPF number, even after quite a few years inactive. (We just experienced this recently, so info is very current.)
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Originally Posted by NPF
It is not the equivalent of the US Social Security number, which acompanies a person from craddle to grave.
So yes, it is more like a SS#.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NPF
....we have the traditional Brazilian 'jeitinho'. Deception? Yes. Fraud (civil) or crime? To me, No!
To me, yes, the jeitinho is often fraud or subversion of the law of some sort. Sadly, Brazilians seem to be able to overlook this quite easily and consider it a fact of life in Brazil, and also to try it on in other countries. Consequently. I have seen a large number of Brazilians get into serious trouble in the U.S. over such issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NPF
(The last paragraph supposes that you have not printed a fake CPF card to present if asked - this will be document fraud
Note: The government is NOT, in fact, issuing actual cards anymore.
Originally Posted by NPF
If you don't pay federal taxes for a number of years, your CPF will be inactivated and, as far as I know will be forfeited after a number of years inactive.
You do not any longer forfeit your CPF number. They are now merely reactivating the original CPF number, even after quite a few years inactive. (We just experienced this recently, so info is very current.)
oh cr*p... I just got a CPF last time I was in Brazil, but as I don't think I'll be living there anytime soon...how do I keep it activated? My local consulate?
Quote:
Note: The government is NOT, in fact, issuing actual cards anymore.
Yea what's up with that? They printed mine on a tiny scrap of paper (that I had to laminate myself). Now if I show it to people, they either laugh in my face/express confusion that it's not on a blue credit card looking thing
When these deals come up, can they be booked with an Aussie Amex and no CPF? We need some GOL flights in Sept so it would seem we have to wait for one of these deals to run in August.
