Southwest Rapid Rewards - Des Moines (DSM) seems a prime target for a LCC

I recently have had to book a number of individuals traveling to a meeting in Des Moines. From most US cities, the fares are very high, much higher than comparable cities that are served by some LCC such as Southwest or AirTran. AirTran flies to Moline, which is not too far away, and the fares there are much lower than DSM.

I just wonder if WN has seriously considered DSM, or are they now focused on expanding into the major cities like BOS, LGA, and DEN?

One of many that remain in the "hinterland" that WN seems to have turned its back on of late. I understand WN wanting to get into the largest markets finally, but to completely abandon the model that made them so successful doesn't make sense to me.

GSP is another market in need of rescue by an LCC. We were recently listed in the top 5 or 10 markets with the highest average airfare, and about 60% of our market uses ATL, CLT or other airports instead. Very sad.

Vanguard Airlines, used to fly a 737 between their hub in Kansas City and Des Moines. The flight was cheap and usually full when I took it. I would fly to Kansas City on Southwest and then connect with Vanguard. The Southwest ticket and the Vanguard ticket was always dramatically less than a TWA flight with a connection in St. Louis.

At the time I expected Southwest to buy or merge with Vanguard as it was a low coxt carrier that also only flew 737s into markets that Southwest didn't have. With their hub in Kansas City it made sense, which is probably why it never happened.

At any rate I could never understand why there isn't any LCC in Des Moines as any time I fly there the flights have always been full and the fares were usually farily high, an ideal situation for Southwest. It wouldn't surprise me to see Jet Blue adding DSM, but with Southwest ignoring it there might be some other reason the LCCs stay away. I can't see Moline being a better market than DSM, unless Moline is offering some sort of financial incentive to a new airline that DSM would not.

The other odd thing about Des Moines is it is difficult to find an unlimited mileage rental car. They all seem to have a 150 mile a day before a surcharge, and you don't even want to know about the drop charges if you dare take a rental car from Des Moines to anywhere else.

It's almost as if DSM is locked in a time capsule to the glory days of business travel when it was OK to buy full Y and F fares for normal business travel. It's a great city in dire need of Southwest flights.

GSP is another market in need of rescue by an LCC. We were recently listed in the top 5 or 10 markets with the highest average airfare, and about 60% of our market uses ATL, CLT or other airports instead. Very sad.

I was in GSP last week and I can't believe the number of unused gates at that airport. They could easily add two LCCs and not use up all those unused gates.

I use to fly Vanguard to DSM from MSP. My first trip there, the rental car cost me close to $500 because it didn't even occur to me to look and see if it was unlimited milage. My recollection is that the planes were pretty empty.

The other odd thing about Des Moines is it is difficult to find an unlimited mileage rental car. They all seem to have a 150 mile a day before a surcharge, and you don't even want to know about the drop charges if you dare take a rental car from Des Moines to anywhere else.

Interesting -- I've never seen National come up with anything but an "unlimited mileage" rental, so I ran off a couple rentals for DSM & sure enough they were limited to 250 miles on weekends, 1000 miles for a week. Overage is .28 per mile. :td:

National at Cedar Rapids, IA, offers unlimited mileage. Rentals are slightly cheaper than DSM on weekends but almost 50% higher during the week.

I'll have to watch out for that from now -- better to learn painlessly from someone else's example. :)

I used to put 600 miles on Thrifty & National rentals in a weekend driving from ORD/MDW to the St. Louis area to avoid sky-high NW fares to STL and normally would even have thought to worry about mileage limits with those companies.

Des Moines is the only place I have ever seen this, but it has been like that for years. I have no idea why. I only do Hotwire in Des Moines regardless of whether it is cheaper or not, because it is always unlimited milage.

I was in GSP last week and I can't believe the number of unused gates at that airport. They could easily add two LCCs and not use up all those unused gates.

I know! It's such a great facility to be so underused.

I have traveled to DSM for years from Southwest US, my company always books me into OMA and I drive. Car Rentals are less and fares are usually half. DSM has become a flyover for WN and others for years. 12 years ago WN had DSM targeted but then Morris air was bought and they got Boise instead.
WN has changed it's business model to look like nothing that built it. DSM will continue to be a high priced low load market with leagacies charging what they want. KCI, OMA and MSP get a lions share of the market due to fares, driving is an accepted practice. My boss lives 40 miles from DSM and he drives to MSP or OMA every trip!

I recently have had to book a number of individuals traveling to a meeting in Des Moines. From most US cities, the fares are very high, much higher than comparable cities that are served by some LCC such as Southwest or AirTran. AirTran flies to Moline, which is not too far away, and the fares there are much lower than DSM.

I just wonder if WN has seriously considered DSM, or are they now focused on expanding into the major cities like BOS, LGA, and DEN?

The last time WN added a similar city/metro of that size was 1994-1995, with Spokane, WA in 1994 and Omaha, NE in 1995.

Nashville, TN 31 2,172,400 1986
Greenville, SC 37 1,815,900 no service
Buffalo, NY 53 1,367,000 2000
Little Rock, AR 57 1,202,800 1984
Albany, NY 58 1,194,500 2000
Tulsa, OK 61 1,128,600 ?
Ft. Myers, FL 64 1,053,900 2005
Tucson, AZ 68 987,300 1994
Harlingen, TX 72 933,300 1975
Spokane, WA 73 927,500 1994
Des Moines 74 913,500 no service
Omaha, NE 77 873,300 1995
El Paso, TX 89 764,900 1976
Jackson, MS 90 754,500 1997
Reno, NV 105 612,600 1990
Boise, ID 111 592,700 1994
Corpus Christi, TX 128 465,700 1976
Amarillo, TX 131 428,000 1978
Lubbock, TX 146 346,400 1976
Odessa-Midland 151 321,500 1976

I went by DMA size, which is households not population, but the ranking includes encompassing counties in the area; e.g. Cape May County (Wildwood, NJ) is associated with Philadelphia, PA.

I'm assuming WN feels obliged to still service those bottom of the barrel markets (90 and below) because if it was to pull out, they'd suffer bad PR, esp with those small TX cities, which help founded WN's model. At this point with their new business model, WN probably doesn't want to start service to any market below 40, unless it offers some destinational attraction - I'm thinking Ft. Myers FL with the beaches.. or is close to another major metro.

GSP makes a lot of sense however as its above 40 and nearby Columbia, SC and Augusta, GA have no LCC service either so people from those metros can drive to GSP, which is a further boost, but WN is ignoring it, for its eyes are on ATL or CLT possibly.

However, what's surprising to me is that some of the small markets have very good service. There are 3 WN nonstop flights between Boise and Spokane. Is there are a lot of business activity between those 2 cities?

Interesting -- I've never seen National come up with anything but an "unlimited mileage" rental, so I ran off a couple rentals for DSM & sure enough they were limited to 250 miles on weekends, 1000 miles for a week. Overage is .28 per mile. :td:



I'll go you one better on this one, our corporate rate with all the rental car companies always give us unlimited mileage, except in Des Moines. I was always amazed that somehow all the car rental companies in Des Moines were able to get in their national contracts an exemption to have a mileage cap, and anywhere else in the country we get unlimited miles. I have first hand experience with Hertz and National at DSM.

We don't have a surcharge for rentals in the NYC metro, which surprises me, but we don't get unlimited miles in Des Moines on our national, no make that international contract. That is some serious clout, or the people in Des Moines have some serious negotiators.

GSP makes a lot of sense however as its above 40 and nearby Columbia, SC and Augusta, GA have no LCC service either so people from those metros can drive to GSP, which is a further boost, but WN is ignoring it, for its eyes are on ATL or CLT possibly.

On top of that, GSP svc probably would actually tap into at least a portion of those very same markets (ATL, CLT), plus most of Western N. Carolina (AVL area) in addition to those mentioned above. The possible catchment area here is huge.

On top of that, GSP svc probably would actually tap into at least a portion of those very same markets (ATL, CLT), plus most of Western N. Carolina (AVL area) in addition to those mentioned above. The possible catchment area here is huge.

Agreed.

Western N. Carolina (AVL) is already included in the Greenville-Spartanburg Asheville Anderson DMA numbers to make it 37. All the same DMA. If Southwest were to advertise on a Greenville network TV station, it reaches the Asheville homes.

Agreed.

Western N. Carolina (AVL) is included in the Greenville-Spartanburg Asheville Anderson DMA numbers. All the same DMA. If Southwest were to advertise on a Greenville network TV station, it reaches the Asheville homes.

As well as NE Georgia.

Agreed, I can't understand why WN doesn't move on GSP. It would help fill their huge gap in the Southeast, and would give them access to the GSP/AVL/CLT/CAE markets, as well as the outer edge of the ATL market.

I predict that GSP will receive WN service within the next 2 years. They have expanded greatly in the last couple years and I assume that the major markets (BOS/LGA/MSP) took priority. Given the reduction of mainline flying to GSP by DL and others, GSP really is ripe for the picking for WN.

On top of that, GSP svc probably would actually tap into at least a portion of those very same markets (ATL, CLT), plus most of Western N. Carolina (AVL area) in addition to those mentioned above. The possible catchment area here is huge.

That is just horribly twisted reasoning. It makes as much sense as Albany and Hartford/Springfield as alternates for JFK.

GSP doesn't have opportunity because of ATL traffic: its growth is inhibited because of the relative proximity of ATL traffic. ATL can support 16 DL non-stops a day to LaGuardia, plus 10x to EWR, 6x to JFK and 5x to White Plains. BOS gets DL 11x daily + AirTran 5x. No sane business person is going to waste 100+ miles of driving each way to catch 1 or 2 or 3 daily frequencies from GSP when service frequencies from ATL are so great.

Leisure travelers might be lured with significantly cheaper fares, but ATL already has a competent LCC with over sixty destinations (one smart enough to figure out how to sell & serve international destinations);). Besides, as another poster noted, Southwest got it more than ten years ago: if they're going to grow they need to put on the big boy pants and serve high-volume destinations. Southwest is doing this successfully in PHL, DEN and SFO.

That is just horribly twisted reasoning. It makes as much sense as Albany and Hartford/Springfield as alternates for JFK.

GSP doesn't have opportunity because of ATL traffic: its growth is inhibited because of the relative proximity of ATL traffic. ATL can support 16 DL non-stops a day to LaGuardia, plus 10x to EWR, 6x to JFK and 5x to White Plains. BOS gets DL 11x daily + AirTran 5x. No sane business person is going to waste 100+ miles of driving each way to catch 1 or 2 or 3 daily frequencies from GSP when service frequencies from ATL are so great.

Leisure travelers might be lured with significantly cheaper fares, but ATL already has a competent LCC with over sixty destinations (one smart enough to figure out how to sell & serve international destinations);). Besides, as another poster noted, Southwest got it more than ten years ago: if they're going to grow they need to put on the big boy pants and serve high-volume destinations. Southwest is doing this successfully in PHL, DEN and SFO.
As I've said ad nauseum, I totally get what WN is currently doing. BUT.... I happen to believe they're big enough and smart enough to still follow the model that got them where they are now, where opportunities exist. I mean, they can "walk and chew gum at the same time", can't they? BTW - if ATL already has such great LCC service, why do people keep saying WN in ATL is a no-brainer?

People have already demonstrated they'll drive to GSP for low fares (Independence Air had its own "effect" when they served here, and all airlines had large pax increases), and G4, while a totally different animal, has continued to add flights and destinations.

Agreed, I can't understand why WN doesn't move on GSP. It would help fill their huge gap in the Southeast, and would give them access to the GSP/AVL/CLT/CAE markets, as well as the outer edge of the ATL market.

I predict that GSP will receive WN service within the next 2 years. They have expanded greatly in the last couple years and I assume that the major markets (BOS/LGA/MSP) took priority. Given the reduction of mainline flying to GSP by DL and others, GSP really is ripe for the picking for WN.

Eureka! Someone else gets it!! ;-)

WN's is no longer the leader in low fares. Competitive - yes. Sometimes the lowest - yes. But their fares are no longer such that people will drive long distances to fly them. There is a reason that WN's business model has changed, and their fare structure is a big part of that reason.

That is just horribly twisted reasoning. It makes as much sense as Albany and Hartford/Springfield as alternates for JFK.

GSP doesn't have opportunity because of ATL traffic: its growth is inhibited because of the relative proximity of ATL traffic. ATL can support 16 DL non-stops a day to LaGuardia, plus 10x to EWR, 6x to JFK and 5x to White Plains. BOS gets DL 11x daily + AirTran 5x. No sane business person is going to waste 100+ miles of driving each way to catch 1 or 2 or 3 daily frequencies from GSP when service frequencies from ATL are so great.

Leisure travelers might be lured with significantly cheaper fares, but ATL already has a competent LCC with over sixty destinations (one smart enough to figure out how to sell & serve international destinations);). Besides, as another poster noted, Southwest got it more than ten years ago: if they're going to grow they need to put on the big boy pants and serve high-volume destinations. Southwest is doing this successfully in PHL, DEN and SFO.

I think a lot has to do with connections too, or atleast WN is carefully scrutinizing that now moreso when choosing airports in markets below 15. WN likes to maximize the offerings, many flights and that works well with connections.

Possibly with GSP, one issue might be the Florida flights, which route along the East coast. My hunch is WN might think they are quite content with BWI, PHL (for ppl coming from MHT and PVD) and RDU as the connections to all the Florida flights from the East coast, and doesn't want/need GSP badly to connect to Florida, to make GSP an alternate connection city to all the Florida destination cities.

So without that, one would really only have to market GSP on the population of the greater metro and even adjacent areas alone, and the flights to BWI(northeast, OH) and MDW. Still, I think the population and the lack of competition warrants it, even if connections can't be maximized out of GSP.

Point on PHL: Southwest retracted service in PHL, particurly by dropping the nonstop PHL-CMH Ohio sector and I'm unconvinced they'll offer new services like PHL-BOS. So, its off to BWI because BWI is a focus city and has the connections.

Perhaps B6 AirTran or JetBlue, it would be different for GSP. Based on the East Coast, B6 could do just 2-4 flight outbound from GSP and be content. Perhaps 2x GSP-JFK, and 2 flights: GSP-BWI-BOS.

Another point: the Southeast is different. Basically, a 2 hour-100 mile drive in the Southeast is about the same hassle as a 50-mile drive in the Northeast, in quite some areas. Primarily in the Northeast, we have tolls and congestion that make driving to airports like JFK unfavorable even when its listed as within 100 miles. Even the trek from Philly to BWI is unfavorable, except for the saving grace of Amtrak being right at BWI's door.

Also I'm sure WN knew of Albany, NY's adjacency to the NY metro area, and ditto with wealthy Fairfield Co., CT to Hartford. For Albany, they must have figured they could get potential passengers from the Kingston/Poughkeepsie Mid-Hudson Valley area (granted its not much, but its part of NY's metro)