El Al Matmid - Should LY have trusted her?

Today, a young Israeli woman showed up at the LY counter in BKK and asked to be flown home. She did not have the money to pay for the ticket but was able to provide identification showing that she lived on a Galilee kibbutz.

I do not know if she had flown LY to BKK or not -- in other words, if she was asking to change her return ticket or to get a new one. I do know the reason she was cutting her vacation short. She had developed a very bad leg infection, was in severe pain, had gotten emergency treatment in Thailand, but needed to have continuing treatment which she wanted to get at home.

LY refused to give her a ticket.

My daughter, who was in the airport, didn't know this woman but felt that if she was a member of a kibbutz about 40 kilometers from our own, she could be trusted. She took out her Amex and paid the $1557 for the ticket.

The young woman has not yet arrived in Israel but her mother called me to get details of how she can send the money to me (we agreed on an inter-kibbutz transfer in shekels).

My question: Do you think LY should have given her the ticket on credit? We are, after all, a small country and there are not too many places where she can hide. More than that, if she defaulted on the payment LY would only have been out the extra cost of putting someone in what would otherwise be an empty seat. On the other hand, LY stood to make a profit if she did pay.

My daughter, on the other hand, could not possibly make any money from having this woman fly LY and stood a risk of losing the entire amount.

In the end, there was no harm. The woman called her mother immediately after getting the ticket. The mother called me. As my daughter's Amex is attached to my own, I even come out somewhat ahead as I will get the HHonors points for the flight.

Still, I think that LY should have been the one to take the risk. How do you see it?

Kudos for your daughter helping the woman in distress. I wonder if she would have been so trustworthy if the woman lived in Tel Aviv and not on a nearby kibbutz.

I don't think LY is in a position to provide free travel to residents of Israel who are in need, and can't think of any other airline in the world who would do so either.

So, it's a good thing your daughter helped.

Dovster, I've enjoyed many many of your posts related to your travels and also other topics.

Your daughter is a good person and you raised her right. This is the sort of person I would like my son to be when he grows up.

I wonder if she would have been so trustworthy if the woman lived in Tel Aviv and not on a nearby kibbutz.

I don't know. I presume she would have made a judgment call.

On the other hand, LY, having this woman's national identity card number, and being a rather large organization, would have found it much easier to collect from her if she defaulted than my daughter would have.

There is another, very practical, reason why LY should have done it.

In 1965, I was serving in the American Army in Italy. My parents paid for a r/t ticket for me to come home on leave. The ticket was with Alitalia but when I got to the airport I found that I had to pay an airport tax to board.

I didn't have a cent with me and asked Alitalia for help. It refused. I went t the TWA desk, explained the situation, and one of its agent got me through the tax collector's line without paying.

In those days, tickets were transferable from one airline to another. Needless to say, I switched my return ticket to TWA and from then, until it eventually went out of business, I flew with them whenever possible.

I wonder how many future flights this young woman will take with airlines other than LY because of this.

Your daughter is a good person and you raised her right. This is the sort of person I would like my son to be when he grows up.

I am very proud of her today. As I told her mother (my ex), she "did a very stupid thing but sometimes the stupid thing to do is also the right thing to do."

Interesting story Dovster. Your daughter did a nice thing for just a random person. Good luck with getting that money back. They could fake you out, or they could really return it. Either way a nice act to do.

To answer your question, it may be the fact that she was in BKK and that. If she was in TLV, it would probably be a different story. But just be grateful that everyone is back home and you will hopefully get the money back soon.

Note: Dov posted the thread link in the DL lounge thread, otherwise I would not have been here.

Interesting story Dovster. Your daughter did a nice thing for just a random person. Good luck with getting that money back. They could fake you out, or they could really return it.

If they were planning on faking me out, they would not have called me. I now have their home telephone number.

Incidentally, the girl's mother was so happy that she kept telling me "Your daughter is an angel from the heavens". Having seen my daughter, more than once, when she is in a bad mood I have a different theological outlook about her. :D

Dov,
I've also enjoyed reading your posts over the years.

The usual thought is that, unless there's a gun to someone's head, that people won't do the right thing.

Experience teaches that. I see it almost every day.

However, there are always people who know what the right thing is and do it.Your daughter is such a person. So, perhaps, are the people who have a commitment to repay you.

You should be very proud of her. I hope that the indications pan out and that your daughter (and you) are repaid.

As for your perspective that your daughter may not always be a angel, is there any chance she knows my daughter, who is doing research in Turkey for her Phd? :D

TBF


If they were planning on faking me out, they would not have called me. I now have their home telephone number.

Incidentally, the girl's mother was so happy that she kept telling me "Your daughter is an angel from the heavens". Having seen my daughter, more than once, when she is in a bad mood I have a different theological outlook about her. :D

However, there are always people who know what the right thing is and do it.Your daughter is such a person. So, perhaps, are the people who have a commitment to repay you.

You should be very proud of her. I hope that the indications pan out and that your daughter (and you) are repaid.



The way I see it (and, I presume, the way my daughter saw it) is that there are two bad possibilities:

1. The first she paid for the ticket and the family cheats us out of $1557.

2. The second was that she did not pay for the ticket and a sick woman, in bad pain, is stuck in Bangkok until somebody can arrange for payment for her flight back home.

The second possibility is worse than the first one, so my daughter made the logical choice.

My daughter just arrived back in Israel and I got further (and more correct) information from her.

1. She had met this woman about a week earlier when they took a diving course together.

2. The woman had an operation on her leg a day or so before the flight. She was unable to keep the leg lowered for long periods and thus needed to be in a front cabin seat where she could fly with the leg raised.

3. She did have a return ticket on El Al for that flight but in Economy Class and would not have been able to use the ticket for that reason. She tried using her own credit card to pay for the upgrade but for some reason it was refused.

4. Her parents attempted to pay for the upgrade in Israel but LY would not allow it. (My daughter was standing next to her while she spoke to her parents on the phone.)

5. With 30 minutes left before check in was closed, my daughter put the ticket on her own credit card.

With this in mind, does it change the situation for you? Should LY have been willing to upgrade her "on credit" and take the risk that she would not have paid?

Now, I am no longer merely convinced that LY should have trusted this young woman -- I am furious that it did not upgrade her even if it knew for a 100% certainty that she would never pay.

I spoke with her mother moments ago. Upon arrival in TLV she was rushed to a hospital in the city and admitted for treatment. Her parents are on their way there now to see her.

I'm sorry, but in a small country like Israel -- especially when we are so dependent on each other during emergencies -- the national airline should have made certain that this ticketed passenger got on the plane, and in a seat which she would be able to use, no matter what.

El Al advertises that we should "fly blue and white" -- implying that we have an obligation to support an Israeli company. If it feels that way, it certainly should be willing to support an Israeli citizen who has an emergency medical problem.

Dovster, people (like your daughter) doing things for one another, is what makes Israel such a beautiful place to live. I see it all the time here and it's what makes me so proud to get to spend much of my time in the Holy Land.

But at the same time we've all seen what Israeli's will do to get something free so I would give LY some slack here considering the fact that for every real "Charity" case that comes their way, a lot more people show up just looking for pleasure at someone elses expense and willing to go as far as possible to accomplish that

My daughter just arrived back in Israel and I got further (and more correct) information from her....

I would probably do the same as your daughter, but not to person with problem with the leg, especially not a day after an operation, And that's not because i dont believe people with problem in the leg, simply because
its a very high risk for DVT even if the leg will be raised during the flight.

Anyway, The person in ELAL BKK should be executed!, From the people i know
in ELAL, all of them would help her.
Also in such situations its better to update ELAL a bit in advance, it always
helps! (from expirence, even twice!)
If your daugther took the details of the people in BKK, i am willing to chase
them!

Ebzed.

But at the same time we've all seen what Israeli's will do to get something free so I would give LY some slack here considering the fact that for every real "Charity" case that comes their way, a lot more people show up just looking for pleasure at someone elses expense and willing to go as far as possible to accomplish that

True enough, Israelis can be con artists par excellence. Still, this would have been a hard thing to fake -- and even harder to get away with it.

The woman, who arrived at BKK in a wheel chair, had undergone surgery in a Bangkok hospital and was discharged with a letter from her doctor stating that she was forbidden to fly without keeping her leg raised. This, of course, means she had to sit in the front cabin.

She was prepared to give up her flight completely and instead return to the Bangkok hospital. That should make anyone realize that she was not faking it.

In Israel, if you owe a debt, the person you owe it to can get a court order forbidding you to leave the country. El Al, more than most companies, should be aware of that. Besides, how many Israelis are prepared to never be allowed to get on an El Al flight because they didn't pay one time?

Having your mispar teudat zehut (national identity number) allows a company like El Al to find you very easily -- including getting your employer's name and address -- making it very simple for it to collect a debt directly from your salary.

Personally, I think that LY should have done the decent thing and given her an upgrade at no charge -- it really would have cost them pennies. If it did not want to do so, then at a very minimum it should have given it to her on credit.

Frankly, if I was in El Al management and read this thread, I would be extremely embarrassed that the company was prepared not to have this woman return to an Israeli hospital and that it let a comparative stranger (my daughter) take whatever financial risk was involved to help her get home.

If your daugther took the details of the people in BKK, i am willing to chase
them!

Ebzed.

Having met Ebzed, I would not want to be one of the BKK people he chases ;) :D

Honestly though - I agree with Ebzed that it's terrible and if he can do something about it, then absolutely!

Dovster - well done on the education programme!

I have to fully agree with you Dovster. I'm wondering whether the station manager was present when this happened. I also wonder if she or the parents tried to escalate it to the station manager. A few years ago I'd have never known to ask for the station manager.

I'm PMing you the station manager's the CEO's contact info so you can raise the issue. Since the money came from your pocket I'd say that you have as valid a claim to raise this as an issue as do her parents.

I'll be in BKK tomorrow on my way home and can speak with them if you provide me any details that would be needed.

I have to fully agree with you Dovster. I'm wondering whether the station manager was present when this happened. I also wonder if she or the parents tried to escalate it to the station manager. A few years ago I'd have never known to ask for the station manager.

I'm PMing you the station manager's the CEO's contact info so you can raise the issue. Since the money came from your pocket I'd say that you have as valid a claim to raise this as an issue as do her parents.
.

After reading this post, I called my daughter. She told me that the BKK station manager (whose name she remembered) was the person that they dealt with. She said that he was "very nice" and let this woman use his telephone to call her parents but insisted that someone had to pay for the upgrade and that it could not be done after she flew.

I don't know why the parents could not do it. Perhaps LY would not take their credit card number over the phone, perhaps (as kibbutz members) their credit limit was not high enough. It is even possible that they only have credit cards which are valid in Israel only. Whatever the reason may be, they were unable to make the payment and the station manager, in the end, took my daughter's credit card for the payment.

Dovster, you keep on insisting that ElAl as the carrier of Israel (no longer the national, but we all know they are, and they sell themselves as such), should have acted as Israelis (like your daughter ^ (who is what we used to call the pretty Israeli)).

This has nothing to do with us being Israelis. It has only to do with basic humanistic nature.

I understand that Israelis may trick you (aren't we all the pretty israelis, but if all of us are that pretty, how come there is such a havoc?), I understand that Israelis will use any loophole they can put their hands on (and god bless Delhaize and brussels airlines), and that the in general, the probability of such a "free" upgrade would lead to several more "free" upgrades is non-zero. At the same time, I do not understand this stupid behavior. Yep, Thailand is conceived as a third-world country were you could buy a letter from a "Doctor" that you are an elephant (if you are willing to pay enough), but at the same time, a quick call to the local hospital could have confirmed that this is not such a case.

In total, :td: LY ^ dovster & ex (for bringing up dovester junior) and of course ^^ dovster junior.

I would suggest you go public (haaretz?) with this.

It is because of this El Al behavior that I fly 'foreign" airlines when I fly to and from Israel. I live in Israel and have been Pl on El Al.
4 years ago, I was flying with the wife back from a vacation in Italy.I was in Y class. As they start the meal service,I see the stewardess giving special meals to certain "select" people in the cabin. I ask if I can have one. They said,no, the captain told us to give the extra Business class meals to these people.
They were army buddies etc,of the captains. I, at the time a PL on El Al,said,if you have extra meals and you are giving them out in coach,don't you think, that PL should get them before others.
It was "Protectzia" in the most basest way.
Imagine,you are seated and the person next to you in coach is getting this elegant (on an airline level ) meal,and you await a full 30 minutes to get your standard..
I can't get away from the feeling that if and when LY decides to do an "Op-Up" it will be for the buddies,not based on status..
Of course DOVSTER is right, that El Al has many ways to get the money here in Israel and they are lucky, that a good samaritan "bailed" them out.If the passenger would have been denied the upgrade and couldn't pay,and consequently,harm would have befallen her,besides being lambasted in the press here,more people would start flying the competition.

I just sent the following e-mail to LY CEO Haim Romano. (I am blanking out the names of the girls, the BKK station manager, and our kibbutzim.)

Dear Mr. Romano,

Yesterday, El Al in Bangkok was prepared to leave a young, injured, Israeli woman behind and she was only able to board the flight because a comparative stranger paid El Al to upgrade her to a seat which would not cause further damage to her leg.

XXXX XXXXX, of Kibbutz XXX, was vacationing in Thailand when she developed a very bad infection in her leg. After being operated on twice in a Bangkok hospital she was told she could return home for further treatment but that her leg had to remain raised during the flight. She arrived at the airport in a wheelchair and had a doctor's certificate requiring her to keep her foot elevated during the flight.

Naturally, this meant that she could not fly in Economy Class. She had a ticket for the 00:10 flight from BKK to TLV (21 Sept) but it was in Economy. She was told that the upgrade would cost her $1556. She tried to use her credit card but the debit was rejected. The station manager, XXX XXXX, allowed her to use his telephone to contact her parents but they were unable to arrange payment in time for the flight.

Mr. XXXX told her that she could not get the upgraded seat unless the fare was paid in advance.

As her doctor had warned her not to fly in an Economy seat, this young woman -- who was in quite a bit of pain -- was naturally very upset. The only thing that saved her was pure luck. My daughter, XXX, was in the airport waiting for her own flight on Royal Jordanian. XXX and XXXX did not know each other very well, having met just about a week earlier when they took the same diving course, but I am very happy that XXXX had the decency that El Al lacked and used her own American Express card to pay for the other girl's upgrade.

This is the only thing which allowed XXXX to fly back to Tel Aviv (where she was immediately hospitalized upon arrival.)

Quite frankly, if I had been in Mr. XXXX's position, I would have been extremely embarrassed to see one young kibbutznik (our family lives on Kibbutz XXXX) pay for another while a company as large as El Al refused to help.

Yes, I realize that El Al had no way to know if XXXX would pay them after arriving in Israel -- but, for that matter, neither did my daughter. Still, would it have cost El Al very much to allow this young woman to sit in what would otherwise be an empty seat? Was the savings to the company really worth the possibility of either stranding her in Thailand or having her fly in Economy and causing further, more serious, damage to her leg?

I would have thought that given the circumstances, El Al would have allowed XXXX a complementary upgrade (at least for the seat, if not the food service). Still, if that is very much against your policy you could have allowed her to fly home and pay after arrival. You and I are both aware that this girl could not have boarded El Al if you did not have her national identity card number and with it you would have no problem in finding her (if necessary) and collecting the additional fare from her.

As it turned out, there would have been no need for El Al to chase after its money, XXXX gave her mother my telephone number and while the plane was still in the air, her mother called me to let me know she would pay me today.

I would expect more consideration to an injured passenger even from an airline in a large country. To see it from El Al, which is the flag carrier of a small nation like Israel where we pride ourselves on helping each other in emergencies, is extremely disappointing.

I also have to say that it does not make good business sense. This story will unquestionably become well-known both on XXXX's kibbutz and my own. That does not present El Al in a very good light and will discourage others from flying it.

As I mentioned earlier, I am disappointed in El Al but, in all honesty, not at all surprised. I have come to expect excellent service from El Al in the air and extremely poor service on the ground. That is why, even though I am a Matmid member, I avoid flying on El Al. I am currently have Gold Medallion status with Delta, and between my Alitalia flight tomorrow to Malpensa and another in October to the States, I will be Platinum. It is incidents like these which have caused me to avoid El Al.

I hope, (perhaps it is better to say "I am hoping against hope") that you will take some steps to make this up to XXXX -- and, further, that before leaving El Al you will make a policy change to encourage a bit more humanity on the part of your ground and office staff.

Sincerely,

I just sent the following e-mail to LY CEO Haim Romano. (I am blanking out the names of the girls, the BKK station manager, and our kibbutzim.)


Great behaviour from your daughter. It is thanks to people like her that life is not totally miserable on earth. Too bad this kind of persons are so rare. BTW, there seems to be something very American in this reaction - and the story around your moving TWA experience makes me believe that you are American..........

Regarding El Al's cold and detached attitude, I must say it is no surprise. This is the usual way most El Al employees are behaving. As in society in general, there are also exceptional El Al crew members, but the usual attitude is the one illustrated by the BKK team. And this has not changed over the years. Joel Feldschuh, Amos Shapira, Haim Romano.....they all announced huge revolutions in El Al's attitude towards the customer...but, despite huge investments in advertising and "rebranding" operations, the reality has never changed.

This BKK story is a disgrace, and an article in some Israeli newspapers would be very welcome.

and the story around your moving TWA experience makes me believe that you are American..........

Guilty as charged. I was born in the States and made aliyah when I was 34.

My dad 14 years ago had a leg infection while he was working in Nigeria. He was flown KLM to Amsterdam and EL AL to TLV. EL AL gave him complimentary upgrade so he could lift his leg to business. I don't remember what KLM did.

4 years ago when his mom was on her death bed, EL AL charged my dad an enourmous fee like $800 to change a ticket in Romania so he can get to Israel to say goodbye. The sad thing that flight he boarded an hour later it was empty. Why did they charge him so much for the flight.

EL AL has changed and it seems not in a good way.

However to be fair, I am not sure how foreign airlines would have acted. A few months ago I bought a ticket for my mom to come and visit us. I had an urgent hospitalization and she needed to come to help us earlier. Northwest would not let us change the ticket, as it was not changeable.(Did not realize that at the time of booking) Their reply we take the integrity of our fare system very seriously and cannot assist you.

Your daugther did the right thing. This reminds me of Israel I miss. You should be a very proud parent.

Hopefully the girl feels better quickly.

Shana Tova and Gmar Hatima Tova

Erez

Guys,
EL-AL is a business, And as a business every unit (station) need to show its
earning money - So now one can come to EL-AL to argue regarding what
happened to EL-AL, As a business what they have done is looking very logical.
The seat could be sold at the station to someone at full price or as onboard
upgrade or given as an upgrade to gl/pl/tpl.

They (Station Managers) are been checked quite often regarding performance, If they are too easy on overweights/upgrades and etc.

Saying the above doesn't justify the behavior of the station manager and he
could act differently, I am not sure in what condition the lady arrived to the
airport and how the discussion started, But if she were calling EL-AL call center
i am sure they would arrange her something.
(In such situations with the right documents and insurance, you get either
business class upgrade, or they fix you 3 seats in economy)

Guys,
EL-AL is a business, And as a business every unit (station) need to show its
earning money - So now one can come to EL-AL to argue regarding what
happened to EL-AL, As a business what they have done is looking very logical.
The seat could be sold at the station to someone at full price or as onboard
upgrade or given as an upgrade to gl/pl/tpl.

They (Station Managers) are been checked quite often regarding performance, If they are too easy on overweights/upgrades and etc.


This is a major failing of much modern 'business management'. Nobody is interested in long term success because everything is based on short term targets. It is a familiar picture all over. However, those businesses which really are successful long term are the ones who regard long term customer satisfaction as their primary target. Once you have that in the bag the rest will follow (unless you make major management blunders). The problem is that in most places the management are not given a chance to prove the value of such long term investment if they do not hit short term targets.

BTW where was her travel insurance company? The brother of a friend was in a motorbike accident while in Thailand. The insurance company paid for two operations and then booked him businesss class back to Israel for further treatment.

BTW where was her travel insurance company?

She had travel insurance and showed it to the BKK Station Manager, but he said she had to pay first and the insurance would reimburse her later.

She had travel insurance and showed it to the BKK Station Manager, but he said she had to pay first and the insurance would reimburse her later.

Having it is nice, but why weren't they actively managing the situation? I assume she was in touch with them during the hospitalization period. They typically have emergency numbers for these types of situations.

When she and her parents were unsuccessful in making the payment for the ticket, did either of them contact the insurance company to deal with the situation?

When she and her parents were unsuccessful in making the payment for the ticket, did either of them contact the insurance company to deal with the situation?

I don't know -- and I am in Italy for the next 10 days and won't be able to find out.

First I need to add my kudoos to you and your daughter. I can honestly say I do not know if I would have offered my credit card.

I can understand El Al from a business point of view not offering a freebie. BUT, what I can not understand and what in my opinion is way beyond is their refusal to take the parent's credit card. They had the daughters and they had the parents on the phone offering their number. Surely between the two cards they could have found the funds. If they couldn't use the Israeli card overseas ( which I don't get) they should have had someone at ElAl Israel put the card through.

That why I avoid El Al if possible to TLV

That why I avoid El Al if possible to TLV
If i had to avoid every US airline company on problems they made me, I would
probably need to raise wings and fly myself.
I am not saying EL-AL is the best company, As a TPL i had also incidents
with them, but understanding how things works, no one is perfect.

Dovster gave us the information we know, Kudos to his daughter for what
she did, But i am sure we are missing here something..., What was the problem
with the leg? how did the insurance company doctor approved a regular flight
after an operation?, What was the initial talks between her and the station
manager and so on...
I wont run to judge things very fast, The end result is bad for EL-AL, but
we are missing some parameters that might explain things for good or for bad.

If she were calling EL-AL in advance, they would make sure she will have
access to lounge, and that a golf-car will take her to and from the plane,
and try to find her the best solution on the flight.

Dovster gave us the information we know, Kudos to his daughter for what
she did, But i am sure we are missing here something..., What was the problem
with the leg? how did the insurance company doctor approved a regular flight
after an operation?

I think the word "operation" may be misleadling. It conjures up mental pictures of her being under a general anasthesia while a team of doctors tries to cure a major underlying problem.

That was not the case here. She had. as I said earlier, a leg infection. She was treated twice at the Bangkok hospital but each was a minor operation, done with a local anasthesia, in which (I understand) the doctor simply tried to relieve her pain and reduce the swelling by draining some of the pus. The cause of the infection was not addressed (except, possibly, by giving her antibiotics) and was, instead, left for doctors in Israel to work on.

Insurance companies love nothing better than to refuse claims and I don't believe that one of their own doctors approved anything -- and I suspect that this girl still has a big fight ahead of her to get reimbursed.

(Shortly after I moved to Israel, someone ran a red light and smashed into my car. The other driver admitted to the police that he was at fault. His insurance company never denied their responsibility but it took them over 6 months to actually give me a check -- and then only when I walked past the president's secretary and into his office when he was meeting with two other people.)

I am completely, 100%, certain that the woman was not faking anything. Why do I say this? The price of the upgrade represents a fortune for a young kibbutznik. As a single woman, without much seniority, she would get less than 1000 shekels each month in actual cash. Indeed, on most kibbutzim her parents, as a couple, would get roughly 3000 shekels monthly.

Yet the girl was willing to pay roughly 6000 shekels for the upgrade. My daughter risked that amount to pay for her. Her parents tried to pay and although they could not for technical reasons, were thrilled that my daughter did and immediately repaid the loan.

The girl would not have offered to pay if this had been a scam. My daughter had to be well aware of her situation to allow it to be put on her Amex. The parents had to be convinced that the situation required it.

I had a discussion with the station manager about this last night. He thanked me for the printout of the thread, said he wanted to make sure that others at the station read it, and said that complaints like this are positive for him and LY as it helps them to improve and address issues. Between that discussion and reading Dovster's comments today I see the situation a bit differently. The brother of a friend was in Thailand in a motorbike accident a few months or a year ago. He had two operations I think and eventually was flown home in business class on RJ by the insurance company. Based on what I currently understand about this situation, I think that LY BKK acted properly in this case.



It doesn't sound that there was any medical reason that the leg needed to be elevated or couldn't be bent.
The hospital documents don't seem to have stated that the leg couldn't be bent or needed to be elevated.
The insurance company didn't see the need to take care of a business class seat to avoid the leg from being bent or ensure that it be elevated.
The girl's credit card declined payment for the upgrade.
The LY BKK station is not able to process credit card payments over the phone. This is common for many businesses.*
The girl was offered a bulkhead preferred seat which would have provided her with more legroom and ensured nobody reclined back onto her leg but she declined and only wanted a business seat.



At the end of the day it seems that we have a case of a passenger who was having some pain and wanted to upgrade their seat. She didn't have the funds to do so, was unable to organize them, and was denied the upgrade by the airline until the funds were made available.



* Not all TG stations have online access to their FFQ program. This means that while I can perhaps request on the spot upgrades on points from some stations I can't from others. What I do in this case is call an open call center somewhere and have them do it. I assume the LY call center in Israel was closed but perhaps the parents could have called a call center in the UK or US to try to process the payment. Hindsight is 20/20 and not sure I'd have thought of this in the heat of the moment.

Not unsurprisngly, I disagree with Yosithezet on this.

To start with, while I have no idea of what is written on the hospital's paper, this girl was told to keep her foot elevated. There is no conflict here -- I have nothing written from the hospital in Safed that I must walk every few hours during a long flight, but the hemotologist there made certain that in view of my quadruple bypass last year it is crucial that I do so.

Secondly, she was not looking for a freebie. She was willing to pay. When her own credit card did not accept the debit, her parents made the offer, It is not their fault that LY in BKK was not set up to take the charge on the phone, Indeed, BKK could have told her to pay through the TLV office. They could even have put her daughter on the flight and insisted that the parents pick her up at TLV and pay on the spot.

My ex spilled boiling water on her foot about 2 months ago, and had to keep her foot elevated (most of the time) for over a month. She was in extreme agony whenever she lowered it -- she certainly would not have been able to sit on a BKK-TLV flight in Y, even if she was given a seat with more legroom.

Lastly, let's not foget the fact that this flight was about to take off with an empty Biz seat. In the very worst situation, LY would not have lost a cent by allowing this girl to sit there even if she wound up cheating them out of the payment.

On the other hand, it stood to make over $1500 extra if she did pay upon arrival.

In short, it was given a business offer where it had the possibility (I would say strong probability) of making a profit with no risk of a loss. Instead of doing this, it allowed my daughter to take the risk of a loss, while she had no possibility at all of making the profit.

In every possible way, LY handled this very badly,

I assume the LY call center in Israel was closed but perhaps the parents could have called a call center in the UK or US to try to process the payment. Hindsight is 20/20 and not sure I'd have thought of this in the heat of the moment.

FY: EL-AL call center operate 24/7 excluding Yom Kippur.

Thanks for bringing the other side Yosithezet!

Yalla, Shana Tova Ve Gmar-Hatima Tova!

If i had to avoid every US airline company on problems they made me, I would
probably need to raise wings and fly myself.
I am not saying EL-AL is the best company, As a TPL i had also incidents
with them, but understanding how things works, no one is perfect.

Dovster gave us the information we know, Kudos to his daughter for what
she did, But i am sure we are missing here something..., What was the problem
with the leg? how did the insurance company doctor approved a regular flight
after an operation?, What was the initial talks between her and the station
manager and so on...
I wont run to judge things very fast, The end result is bad for EL-AL, but
we are missing some parameters that might explain things for good or for bad.

If she were calling EL-AL in advance, they would make sure she will have
access to lounge, and that a golf-car will take her to and from the plane,
and try to find her the best solution on the flight.

You may disagree, and yes the worst airline in the US is (Un)American Airlines who partnered with El Al, however just sharing my experiences: LY Staff is rude and not accomodating, tend to depart and arrive late, my last trip, from EWR to TLV, LY was scheduled to leave 45 minutes before my CO flight, and it was scheduled to land in TLV, about 45 minutes after I finished Immigrations and Customs at Ben Gurion.

Gmar Chatimah Tovah for all, שנה טובה!!!!!!!!!!!!!
שנה של בריאות
שנה של אושר
שנה של אהבה
שנה של הגשמה
שנה של הצלחה
שנה של כל טוב...!!!!!

I understand that Israelis will use any loophole they can put their hands on (and god bless Delhaize and brussels airlines),

Can anybody explain what this is all about?

You may disagree, and yes the worst airline in the US is (Un)American Airlines who partnered with El Al, however just sharing my experiences: LY Staff is rude and not accomodating

I've always found the El Al cabin crews to be excellent. If its corporate offices matched their professionalism, LY wold probably be my airline of choice.

Frankly, I think the core of the problem here is the Israeli fear of being a "frier" (sucker). The same Israeli who will go up against a Syrian tank armed only with his M-16 and a hand grenade quakes at te thought of someone telling him he was a frier.

Look at this situation: The BKK station chief knew that if the plane took off with that Biz seat empty, LY would not make a penny off of it. If he put this young woman in the seat, there was a strong probability that LY would gain $1500+. That probability could have been increased to 99% if they had taken her passport as security and the parents would have had to pay either while the flight was in the air, or at the airport, before she could get it back and re-enter the country.

Even if she had nothing at all wrong with her leg and had made up the entire story, it wouldn't matter: LY stood to gain by giving her the Biz seat and could not lose anything by refusing.

So why not do it? Because of that tiny chance that she would not pay. Maybe she had hidden away a second passport or a biomatric card which would get her into the country. Maybe it wasn't really her parents on the phone, trying to pay, maybe it was some accomplices. The BKK Station Chief didn't feel like he could take that chance, because someone might say he was a frier.

It was, in his opinion, much better for LY to be certain of not getting the payment for the Biz seat by having it empty than for him to risk being seen as a frier if she sat in it and LY didn't get paid.

There is no other possible reason to refuse to put a woman who is offering to pay, and says she is injured, in a Biz seat which will otherwise go empty.

(BTW, my daughter was not a friereet. The woman's parents have already repaid the charge.)

Can anybody explain what this is all about?

I doubt so very much.

The BKK Station Chief didn't feel like he could take that chance, because someone might say he was a frier.

It was, in his opinion, much better for LY to be certain of not getting the payment for the Biz seat by having it empty than for him to risk being seen as a frier if she sat in it and LY didn't get paid.

There is no other possible reason to refuse to put a woman who is offering to pay, and says she is injured, in a Biz seat which will otherwise go empty.



With all due respect, have you come to this conclusion after having spoken to the station chief or did you just make this up?

The process you suggest, with taking the passport and whatnot, sounds like a major headache over an upgrade to a business class ticket. And should they arrive at TLV and she wasn't able to pay, it would be even more of a headache. Why would anyone voluntarily put themselves through this? According to what we know about the hospital documents and insurance company's assessment, there was no emergency situation here. It is a case of a girl that wanted to upgrade her seat to be more comfortable and wasn't able to come up with the funds herself until your daughter, who is a very good person, ponied up for her. Should she have been trusted to be good for the money? Not in my opinion. On what basis do you think she should have been trusted?

Had there been an emergency situation. Had the hospital documents been addressed to the airline and requesting that for medical reasons she be given a seat where she can keep her leg raised, I'd see the situation differently.

Why don't you contact the station chief and ask him if his main concern was not being a 'friar'? Remember this is the same station chief that helped hundreds of Israelis stranded in Thailand during the airport closure last year. I doubt that being a 'friar' had a lot to do with the decision made.

With all due respect, have you come to this conclusion after having spoken to the station chief or did you just make this up?.

No, I haven't spoken with the station chief. I am saying this based on 30 years experience living in Israel.

As I mentioned earlier my daughter said the station chief was "very nice". You pointed out that "this is the same station chief that helped hundreds of Israelis stranded in Thailand during the airport closure last year."

He does not sound like an uncaring person. Yet he was insistent on her paying in advance even when her prents tried to pay but were not allowed because of the BKK station's rules.

He had very little reason to suspect that they would try not to pay. He had several different ways (as mentioned in this thread) to get them to pay. The seat, empty, was valueless. With her in it, the odds were excellent that LY would collect over $1500 for it.

The only reason I can see for a caring person, who has demonstrated his helpfulnes during the closure, not to take the minor risk of LY getting paid was fear of being thought of as a frier.

No, I haven't spoken with the station chief. I am saying this based on 30 years experience living in Israel.

As I mentioned earlier my daughter said the station chief was "very nice". You pointed out that "this is the same station chief that helped hundreds of Israelis stranded in Thailand during the airport closure last year."

He does not sound like an uncaring person. Yet he was insistent on her paying in advance even when her prents tried to pay but were not allowed because of the BKK station's rules.

He had very little reason to suspect that they would try not to pay. He had several different ways (as mentioned in this thread) to get them to pay. The seat, empty, was valueless. With her in it, the odds were excellent that LY would collect over $1500 for it.

The only reason I can see for a caring person, who has demonstrated his helpfulnes during the closure, not to take the minor risk of LY getting paid was fear of being thought of as a frier.

Dovster

I must say I side with yosithezet on this one. I don't think frier comes in to it. I think that overall the station chief acted correctly and I am almost sure that had there been any documentation requiring this lady to have her leg upright for the flight he would have made sure she was in business.

It's not a question of him bring a frier, it's about following some common sense rules, not just protocol.

Can anybody explain what this is all about?

This is kinda OT, but Delhaize (a belgian supermarket chain) and Brussels airlines had an agreement:

700 miles on Brussels = 5 Euro voucher to do shopping in Delhaize
(this worked both ways - voucher for miles, miles for voucher).

One day, a promotion!
1 voucher = 2100 miles, 700 miles = 1 voucher.

When I discussed this with Belgians they felt that something was wrong.
When I discussed this with Israelis, the question was "so how much money did you make?".

As Israelis, we are after loopholes. We are actually, what milage runners are to airlines - give us more in exchange for less, as much as possible. The run after mistake fares is so Israeli in nature (I will not be surprised to learn that there is a travel agency just for mistake fares, called IsraTravellers, or something like that).

I just wanted to throw in my own $0.02 I think that what the station manager did was right. Granted, we are a small country and we are all friendly etc. but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who try to take advantage and the whole "sucker" mentality does exist. But in this instance, the station manager works for a company that scrutinizes every upgrade etc. If an auditor looked at the flight manifest and saw that passenger X was seated in J even though they were holding a T-class ticket, there would be questions to answer. Being that LY recently had to deal with employees stealing from the duty free on board as well as check-in agents taking bribes at JFK to be upgraded, the station manager was smart not to just give the passenger a seat in business class. There are too many holes in this story as to why the parents didn't call LY in advance and try to upgrade her ticket via the call center or why she didn't have a valid credit card while she was in Thailand for emergencies.

Dovster, it was nice what your daughter did and that is the true essence of us living in a Jewish country where we are all hospitable and friendly but what if the girl didn't actually have the means to pay back El Al once they got to Israel? The station manager would most likely be reprimanded and the company would have to hire a lawyer to get the money due to them. The "sucker" mentality does not fit in to this scenario at all and the station manager's first priority is to be loyal to the airline while making us think that they are loyal to the passengers.

but what if the girl didn't actually have the means to pay back El Al once they got to Israel?

Let's look at that again:

1. At the worst, LY would not have collected any money for that Biz seat. However, if it flew empty it still would not have gotten anything for it.

2. Yes, LY would have had to put a lawyer on it but in Israel lawyers' fees are added to the debt. It is not easy here to escape paying a large corportation.

Now, let's look at what would have happened if my daughter had not agreed to pay (or if she had not been there):

1. This girl would have refused to board the flight and have been stuck in Thailand.

2. If she did not, she would have been in even more severe pain for the entire trip and very possibly have further damaged her leg.

In balancing the risks, it seems to me that not letting her board has a much larger negative side than letting her do so.

Let's look at that again:

1. At the worst, LY would not have collected any money for that Biz seat. However, if it flew empty it still would not have gotten anything for it.

2. Yes, LY would have had to put a lawyer on it but in Israel lawyers' fees are added to the debt. It is not easy here to escape paying a large corportation.

Now, let's look at what would have happened if my daughter had not agreed to pay (or if she had not been there):

1. This girl would have refused to board the flight and have been stuck in Thailand.

2. If she did not, she would have been in even more severe pain for the entire trip and very possibly have further damaged her leg.

In balancing the risks, it seems to me that not letting her board has a much larger negative side than letting her do so.
Although I am not neccesarily agreeing w/ him, the SM was evidently in a very difficult position.
However, the cons which you have mentioned do not affect the SM. Ethically, they do, however, from his POV, he stood to potentially get in trouble. He may have been looking after himself; w/out considering the passenger.
GC''T to everyone.

... and I am almost sure that had there been any documentation requiring this lady to have her leg upright for the flight he would have made sure she was in business.

It's not a question of him bring a frier, it's about following some common sense rules, not just protocol.

The point is precisely here: sometimes, decisions makers have to act in situations when all the usual or "needed" conditions are not met. If simply following the rules was enough, managers would not even be needed... They are supposed to take decisions in any "unusual" circumstances.

In this case, even if the letter from the Thai hospital was not clear enough, or even if there was no letter from the Israeli insurance - and I don't think it is easy to get such a letter in such a short period of time while in the Far East...... - the station manager should have acted differently. I feel it is shameful - for him personally and for El Al - that he accepted that another passenger, totally unconnected to the injured girl, pay those 1500 $.

But this is the average attitude one can expect from El Al. And btw, why should El Al even try to improve and to develop a friendlier attitude? Most LY frequent flyers participating to this discussion are of the opinion that the El Al officer in BKK acted "correctly".

The point is precisely here: sometimes, decisions makers have to act in situations when all the usual or "needed" conditions are not met. If simply following the rules was enough, managers would not even be needed... They are supposed to take decisions in any "unusual" circumstances.

In this case, even if the letter from the Thai hospital was not clear enough, or even if there was no letter from the Israeli insurance - and I don't think it is easy to get such a letter in such a short period of time while in the Far East...... - the station manager should have acted differently. I feel it is shameful - for him personally and for El Al - that he accepted that another passenger, totally unconnected to the injured girl, pay those 1500 $.

But this is the average attitude one can expect from El Al. And btw, why should El Al even try to improve and to develop a friendlier attitude? Most LY frequent flyers participating to this discussion are of the opinion that the El Al officer in BKK acted "correctly".

Well, I don't consider myself a typical Israeli. I was born in England and lived and worked abroad (in several countries) for a big chunk of my life and in fact still work for a foreign company (in a senior managerial position). It is true that managers are there to make decisions when needed and sometimes in unfamilliar territory. This manager made a decision which he considered correct at the time. I make decisions every day which I try to get right and mostly I believe I do. I think the BKK manager acted within reason and under the circumstances probably correctly. As I said in my previous post I was talking about the manager acting with common sense, not within the rules. In any case, an employee of a company, however senior, on the one hand and an individual acting on her own accord on the other hand, have very different prerogatives and it's not reasonable to compare the two.

Even if the letter from the Thai hospital was not clear enough, or even if there was no letter from the Israeli insurance - and I don't think it is easy to get such a letter in such a short period of time while in the Far East......

Israeli Insurance send any letter in less than 1 hour no matter where you are,
They will even make sure you get it to your hotel room if you cannot get out.
And they will usually talk with the Hospital and make sure EL-AL will be updated on the situation - They need to minimize risks, Otherwise they will
pay much more 8-)
I was moved from Economy to First from LA to TLV in such a situation,
And i didnt had any operation or treatment on my leg (And yes, It was a leg
problem...)

I think the main problem here, that we all "expect" above and beyond from
each person in EL-AL..., Do you want to tell me Thai/LH/AF or anyone else
would treat her differently ?

Today, I received a reply to my letter to Haim Romano (which appears above). It was not from him but from someone else at LY, whose name I am deleting (as well as the name of the young woman who had the problem).

I am reposting here both the letter I received and my response:


Thank you for your email to El Al’s President, Mr. Haim Romano, who has asked me to reply to you on his behalf.

After reading the contents of your email I would like to assure you that El Al's first and foremost concern is the safety and well-being of its passengers and we were very sorry to hear of the medical problems that XXXX XXXXX experienced.

In such cases as you describe medical insurance covers all expenses and makes arrangements before a passenger arrives to the airport. El Al staff in Bangkok was not informed in advance that XXXX had an infection or was hospitalized. When she arrived to Bangkok Airport our staff immediately assisted her and offered her a preferred seat which has extra legroom. However, the passenger insisted to sit in business class.

XXXX's parents agreed to pay for the upgrade. However, the credit card was declined and I am sure that they very much appreciated your daughter's assistance.

Each day El Al staff at Bangkok Airport faces situations when passengers have to return home on a stretcher or need wheelchair assistance. Many of these passengers request upgrades without payment and our staff have assisted and paid in the past but the money was never returned.

I am quoting the statement from 'flyertalk'
"I don't think LY is in a position to provide free travel to residents of Israel who are in need, and can't think of any other airline in the world who would do so either".

I very much regret the impression that you have received and I hope that you will reconsider your decision to avoid choosing El Al in the future.

I would like to take this opportunity to wish you and your family, 'chag sameach'.

Yours sincerely,

XXXX XXX
Supervisor-Customer Care

Hi XXXX,

Thank you for your response to my letter to Haim Romano.

I have to admit, however, that I find it difficult to believe that I find the following difficult to believe:

"Each day El Al staff at Bangkok Airport faces situations when passengers have to return home on a stretcher or need wheelchair assistance. Many of these passengers request upgrades without payment and our staff have assisted and paid in the past but the money was never returned."

My first reaction to that is that if, indeed, the "money was never returned" in all of these cases then El Al needs to fire its entire Collections Department and restaff it with some more competent people. After all, debt collection is far from an unknown skill in Israel and there are courts which deal specifically with that.

I then thought that perhaps you had simply worded it too strongly and did not mean to say that the money was "never" returned but rather that it was not returned in some cases. If that is true, it would seem to me that El Al has still come out ahead -- because all of these upgrades were given on seats which would have otherwise flown empty. Those people who did pay represent additional revenues which the company received.

There also seems to be a conflict between what you wrote and what the Bangkok Station Manager told Yosithezet. You said that the parents'credit card was rejected. The Station Manager said that his station does not accept credit cards over the phone.

A distraught parent, especially one who does not travel much, might not have realized that he could make the payment through El Al's call center in Tel Aviv, but I have to wonder why the Station Manager, who is a professional with much more experience in this area, did not suggest that to the parents.

(The parents, as I noted on FlyerTalk, proved very honest and repaid the debt immediately.)

I don't know if you have any children, but if you do, and one should find himself in a situation similar to that which this young woman faced, would you really be satisfied in the way that El Al handled it? How would you feel if someone like my daughter had not offered to help out a comparative stranger and your child was faced with the choice of not returning home or ignoring her doctor's orders to keep her foot elevated?

(Yes, I realize that El Al offered her a preferred seat with more legroom, but I have often had such seats and while I am very glad to get them, they in no way allow a passenger to elevate his leg.)

Still, I want to thank you again for replying to my letter and I also wish you a very happy holiday.

Best,

I think ELAL's response is right - I suspect that indeed many people "try it on".

I actually knew personally someone who could walk excellently but when he arrived at the airport he walked with a stick, showed his Israeli disability card and somehow always managed to get an upgrade, sometimes including for other members of his family - not someone I like in particular but ther you go.

It's really difficult for ELAL to decide who is honest and who is not and I don't accept your logic about ELAL being ahead even if they lost out some of the time.

In my past I worked as a lawyer in a firm that were specialists in debt collection (just to give you an idea - they had hundreds of thousands of hotza'a lapoal files) - it is (a) not as easy as you make it sound; and (b) not always worthwhile as you cannot always collect all the related costs so you end up collecting but leaving most of it with your lawyer. Nice for the lawyer but bad for the person / company owed money.

Whilst Israel provides all kinds of tools for collecting debts through the legal system it really doesn't work as you would make it sound. Ask me if you like about "Ihud Tikim" and I'll explain how people can get away with paying virtually nothing for years on end, especially kibutznikim that get 300 shekels a month.

Israeli Insurance send any letter in less than 1 hour no matter where you are,
They will even make sure you get it to your hotel room if you cannot get out.
And they will usually talk with the Hospital and make sure EL-AL will be updated on the situation -


Now that's very interesting. I think I did not realize how many similar cases as the one of this girl happen regularly...... there are SO MANY young Israelis doing "wild" activities in the Far East. This explains I guess the insurances' experience in dealing with that kind of situations.

Given the specific circumstances, I still believe that the BKK officer could have acted differently, but I would not qualify his behaviour as totally arbitrary anymore.




Dovster - It is already a "miracle" that you got an ANSWER from El Al. I did not have this chance on a past occasion - and more famous people than me neither - but I believe that the ongoing discussion on this forum is the reason why they decided to send you a letter.

BTW, the content of the letter remains typically El Al, for all the reasons you have mentioned in your reply. Also, given all the circumstances of the case, I feel that in order to encourage you to actually "reconsider your decision to avoid choosing El Al in the future", they could have included a voucher to use on your next El Al flight... This voucher could have been of a small amount, but it would have been a question of principle, to show some consideration to you...



& indeed, shana tova to everyone :-) !

Dovster did you include with your letter, a copy of this thread, or is Haim Romano (or his worker) hooked onto this thread?

If yes, come on be sports! JOIN IN!!!

Dovster did you include with your letter, a copy of this thread, or is Haim Romano (or his worker) hooked onto this thread?

If yes, come on be sports! JOIN IN!!!

That quote was in the printed copy of the thread that was passed to the SM.

That said, I'd be surprised if they weren't also monitoring the thread. It'd be great if they joined Continental, Starwood, Hyatt, Plaza Athenee and so many other companies and had an official representative participating on FlyerTalk.

I do know the reason she was cutting her vacation short. She had developed a very bad leg infection, was in severe pain, had gotten emergency treatment in Thailand, but needed to have continuing treatment which she wanted to get at home.

LY refused to give her a ticket.



I agree that your daughter did a very nice thing , but I no, do not think that LY had any obligation to the pax . You mentioned that the girl needed to return due to a medical problem/injury , so if I were one of the airline staff my question to her would be :

"Have you talked to the issuer of your travel insurance policy?"

and I suspect that the answer would be

"I didnt take out a travel insurance policy"

I find it very interesting on these forums ( not just LY but all the different airlines ) how often people seem to expect/hope that airlines will 'look after' ( ie cover ) them for something that they should have taken travel insurance for . Airlines are business and it is not their role to act as an unpaid insurance for travellers .

A number of years ago my nephew foolishly declined to take travel insurance for a visit to Scotland to see his sister - while there , through no fault of his own he was beaten up and in fact nearly died , his return had to be delayed by several weeks and , as the new departure date was at a time when flights were very full it cost him ( or more accurately , his mother ) a great deal of money to change his ticket , if he had taken a travel insurance policy not only would the airline change fees have been taken care of , but due to his condition he would almost certainly have been sent back to New Zealand in business class at the insurance companies cost . Unfortunately he chose not to pay for insurance , and he certainly paid for his lack of commonsense.

That quote was in the printed copy of the thread that was passed to the SM.


Do you really think that the station manager would pass on a copy of the thread to Chaim Romao?
After all he may get himself into trouble

You mentioned that the girl needed to return due to a medical problem/injury , so if I were one of the airline staff my question to her would be :

"Have you talked to the issuer of your travel insurance policy?"

and I suspect that the answer would be

"I didnt take out a travel insurance policy"

Perhaps you missed this post.

She had travel insurance and showed it to the BKK Station Manager, but he said she had to pay first and the insurance would reimburse her later.

Do you really think that the station manager would pass on a copy of the thread to Chaim Romao?
After all he may get himself into trouble

If the SM felt that he did the right thing then why would be be worried about getting into trouble? I am not sure that he'd pass it to Chain Romano but likely he'd have passed it to his direct superior along with his side of the story. It is common sense to preempt your manager asking you about some controversial decision you took by talking to them and explaining why you made the decision before they hear about it from other sources.

I have been a manager in a few organizations. I became a manager because my superiors felt that they could rely upon me to make decisions based upon company policies and procedures. They also felt that they could rely upon me to know when to make judgment calls for decisions which may fall outside of or be in conflict with the policies and procedures. They felt that decisions I'd make would be dependable and explainable. I doubt that any airline would promote someone to a position of SM without feeling they can rely upon their judgment.

Perhaps you missed this post.
.

You are quite right , I did , my apologies .

I think the main problem here, that we all "expect" above and beyond from
each person in EL-AL..., Do you want to tell me Thai/LH/AF or anyone else
would treat her differently ?

I can't comment on the airlines you mentioned as I have little experience with them but let me tell you a story about Delta.

Delta offers "bereavement" rates to people who have had a death in the family and want to go to the funeral.

The rules are:

1. The fare must be bought from a travel agent or on the telephone with Delta; it can not be purchased online.

2. It must be an economy class ticket.

3. You must send them a copy of the death certificate.

When my mother passed away, I got online to find the fastest itinerary to FLL. It was on Delta, but the only seats available were in Business Elite. I took one and headed straight to the airport.

On my ATL-FLL segment, the woman sitting next to me told me that Delta has been known to change the fare to "bereavement" even after the itinerary began. I contacted Delta and they waived the fact that I bought it online and, as there were no Economy seats available, waived the requirement that it be in Coach. They only asked me to send a copy of the death certificate.

They then refunded $490 of my $3100 r/t fare.

In the case of the young woman in BKK, LY refused to bend the rules even when it would not have cost it any money and it might have made a $1500 profit. Delta waived the rules even though it cost it $490.

I was only a Silver Medallion at the time. I am now Gold, am in the middle of a trip to Italy flown on DL's partner, Alitalia, and will be flying a TLV-ATL-FLL-BOS-DCA-ATL-TLV itinerary in October which will bring me to Platinum Medallion.

After this incident, I would only fly LY if there were no other reasonable choice. Which airline do you think benefitted from its behavior in emergency situations?







BTW, the content of the letter remains typically El Al, for all the reasons you have mentioned in your reply. Also, given all the circumstances of the case, I feel that in order to encourage you to actually "reconsider your decision to avoid choosing El Al in the future", they could have included a voucher to use on your next El Al flight... This voucher could have been of a small amount, but it would have been a question of principle, to show some consideration to you... !

I don't think that I deserve anything from LY for this -- I was only a bit player. My daughter put the charge on her Amex, which is attached to my account, and hence I was billed for it.

The woman's parents called me to arrange payment to me while her flight was still on its way from BKK.

I do think that LY should:

1. Refund (in cash) the $41 extra they paid because LY changed the dollar price to baht and then charged my daughter''s American-issued Amex in that currency.

2. Give the father, the mother, and the daughter each $100 vouchers, which are non-transferable, and for use only on LY flights. This would go a bit towards easing the hard feelings they undoubtedly have towards LY and might make them future passengers instead of Israelis seeking a foreign airline.


Dovster did you include with your letter, a copy of this thread, or is Haim Romano (or his worker) hooked onto this thread?

No, I did not mention this thread or FT. To my mind, and perhaps I am wrong, it would be a form of blackmail: "Give me what I want or I will spread the story all over the internet."

LY should have done the right thing simply because it was the right thing -- and with no consideration to what I might or might not post.

I agree that your daughter did a very nice thing , but I no, do not think that LY had any obligation to the pax .

El Al was faced with a ticketed passenger who was unable to take her Economy seat without being in great(er) pain and risking further damaging her leg. I think it had an obligation to do everything possible to get her into Business Class.

It is not as if it had no reasonable options. BKK could have told the parents to pay throught the TLV Call Center. It did not.

It couild have contacted the kibbutz and asked if they would guarantee the payment. (As a kibbutznik, I can tell you that the bookeeping department would have verified the situation with the parents and then gave LY the guarantee). LY did not do this.

Instead, with 30 minutes left before takeoff, it allowed another young woman, who had a very casual acquaintance with the passenger, to take the risk on herself.

As a business what they have done is looking very logical.
The seat could be sold at the station to someone at full price or as onboard
upgrade or given as an upgrade to gl/pl/tpl.

ebzed, my daughter is spending the weekend on the kibbutz and we talked about this whole situation. Apparently LY could not sell the seat nor did it feel like giving it out as an upgrade -- the young woman was one of only three people in Biz Class. All the other seats were empty for the entire flight.

Thirty minutes before check in closed (which is when my daughter paid for the ticket), the BKK Station Manager had to be very well aware that these seats were not going to be filled. Still, he refused to either upgrade this woman without charge (and give her Economy Class service) or to take a chance that her parents would pay (as they wanted to, but BKK refused to take their credit card over the phone).

The woman, incidentally, was treated in a Tel Aviv hospital after landing, has since been released, but even today is still getting the leg treated by Kupat Holim in Kiryat Shemona.