All Nippon Airways Mileage Club - NH or UA?

Hello,

I will traveling from the west coast to NRT 10-12 times per year beginning early next year in Biz class. I will be traveling on UA at least initially and am wondering which mileage program will be better for me in the long run. I want to be able to use my miles for tickets for my family to travel. Would you recommend using ANA's program or UAL's?

Things I am interested in....flexibility of using miles on various *A carriers around the world, potential comp upgrades to first, bonus miles for elite members, better lounges, that sort of thing. I have looked at the sites and UAL is fairly straightforward, but I can't understand ANA's with regards to elite benefits. any help will be welcome.

Thanks...I am also going to post this in UALs forum.

Hi sushi lover (I can relate),

I have been a member of the UA program for many years and like that accrued points do not expire unless there is zero activity over an 18 month period...

You will accrue miles from NH on your UA reward program, flying UA may give you extra rewards, but I'd prefer to be better served on NH ;-)

However, please don't fly UA - fly NH, after one flight you'll know what I mean - NH beat UA hands down in every way...

All miles from UA can be used across the *A network...

Happy flying.

Cheers,

AG. :-:

AG,

Thanks for the info, trust me, I would much rather ride on ANA, but currently I live in a city not served by ANA and dont really want to make a connection. Are you saying that UAL will get me more miles over time?

THanks.....

sushi

Ok....I broke the rules....let me try again....

What is starnet blocking on UAL?

How does elite status work? If I qualify for say 1K on UA in 2010, does that carry to 2011, so that all flights flown in 2011 get the 100% bonus miles? Do the C class and elite status bonus miles go towards reaching the next elite status?

oh...and what is global services level?

thanks....never used a FFP before, very confusing....many questions!

There are two separate issues here -- which airline to fly, and which airline to credit miles to.

ANA: better food, better service, don't like the seats.
UA: if you take the 747 ex-LAX you get the new business class seats which I find much better for sleeping (fully flat, not angled-flat) but of course you get UA service and UA food.

Either way 10-12 business class roundtrips will make you a United 1K if crediting miles to Mileage Plus. 1Ks get 6 'systemwide upgrades' per year which will get you from business to first class, confirmed at booking (subject to availability) or from coach to business from most fares except the very cheapest. In addition you should earn 8 confirmed domestic upgrades plus other 1K perks.

Now, if you fly United and credit to United and you're paying for 10-12 transpacs a year you probably make Global Services. Search the United forum for discussion, but priority on most things is above 1K.

The downside to crediting to United is, as noted above, 'Starnet blocking'. United is the only Star Alliance airline that doesn't actually let you book all award seats being offered by Star Alliance partner airlines. They 'block' various partners on various routes on various dates in a very non-transparent way. So for redemptions you pretty much want to stay away from United.

Are elite benefits more or less important to you than mileage redemptions?

I should also note that programs like bmi and Lufthansa Miles & More are more generous with mileage earning on premium class fares. Seriously consider (a) asking bmi for a status match and then (b) crediting to bmi. While flying the airline which appeals more to you -- United's hard product on the 747 or ANA's better soft product?

Of course if you're otherwise looking at the United 777 out of SFO or SEA, those haven't been upgradeed yet, you DEFINITELY want to stay away from those in business class, ANA is a no-brainer from SFO hands down...

What is starnet blocking on UAL?see my post above.

or.. this flyertalk thread has over 1700 posts on the subject :eek:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-mileage-plus/871142-washington-times-united-admits-starnet-blocking.html


How does elite status work? If I qualify for say 1K on UA in 2010, does that carry to 2011, so that all flights flown in 2011 get the 100% bonus miles? Yes, that's correct.

Do the C class and elite status bonus miles go towards reaching the next elite status?
Yes, paid C earns a 25% bonus towards (re-)qualification, although deep discount business class Z fares do not earn the bonus.. Elite status bonus does not count towards qualification.

oh...and what is global services level?


http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-mileage-plus/111089-united-global-services.html

Starnet blocking is what United Airlines does to minimize/eliminate awards that Mileage Plus members can use; basically, United has decided that it doesn't want to allow many *A awards on partner carriers and thus has directed its IT department to make many/most *A awards invisible to the UA reservations agents. Makes one wonder why UA has any "partners" at all. Now that I write that, makes one wonder why UA is allowed in the *A at all. Anyway, also see here (http://www.unitedstarnetblocking.com/).

One more note is ANA will expire your unused mileage and they charge very high fuel surcharges. An example I can show you is if you use ANA Miles for a *A flight from LAX-FRA I often had to pay upwards of $250-300 in bogus charges. Booking the same flight using AC miles was about $70. Asking United for that same flight "no availability".

Dunno if this post helps or just confuses you more. ANA recently lowered the bogus fuel / airport charges but still they are higher in my experience then AC or even US on *A "fuel and airport" charges.

Don't get me wrong there are other advantages to using ANA. It only took
me 90k miles for YVR-HKG in business on AC whereas AC via Aeroplan wanted 120k or 115k (can't remember precisely) for the same flight.

One more note is ANA will expire your unused mileage and they charge very high fuel surcharges. An example I can show you is if you use ANA Miles for a *A flight from LAX-FRA I often had to pay upwards of $250-300 in bogus charges. Booking the same flight using AC miles was about $70.
AFAIK fuel surchages are charged by the airline you fly on rather than by the FFP you belong to.

It only took me 90k miles for YVR-HKG in business on AC whereas AC via Aeroplan wanted 120k or 115k (can't remember precisely) for the same flight.
But you should also consider how many miles you can earn with each FFP for the route and class of travel you regularly use.

And you don't have to confine yourself to UA and ANA. You may want to take a look at the Star Alliance Forum for more information, especially this thread.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/star-alliance/325688-useful-reference-links.html

AFAIK fuel surchages are charged by the airline you fly on rather than by the FFP you belong to.



Nope.

Nope.N227UA is correct. E.g., NH will collect fuel surcharges in the hundreds of dollars for a LH 1st flight USA-FRA, UA will not.

What is all this starnet blocking business, anyway!

Cheers, AG :-:

Thanks for all the replies. It seems to me that if you are going to fly on one particular airline it is best to go with their FFP. I am anticipating flying on UAL at least for the next 2 years, so to me it makes sense to use UAL's FFP. Am I understanding it right that that is the only way to get the elite bonus miles of up to 100%? That would mean a lot of extra miles in my case. Also it seems they offer some confirmed upgrades on top of using miles to upgrade. If I switch to flying ANA in the future, I can reevaluate the FFP. My main concern is UAL's ability to exsist long enough to use the miles, but I guess I will take that chance.

Looked at the starnet blocking thing...that is crazy they are getting away with that. Maybe if enough people make some noise about it they will change.

thanks again

Thanks for all the replies. It seems to me that if you are going to fly on one particular airline it is best to go with their FFP. I am anticipating flying on UAL at least for the next 2 years, so to me it makes sense to use UAL's FFP. Am I understanding it right that that is the only way to get the elite bonus miles of up to 100%? That would mean a lot of extra miles in my case. Also it seems they offer some confirmed upgrades on top of using miles to upgrade. If I switch to flying ANA in the future, I can reevaluate the FFP. My main concern is UAL's ability to exsist long enough to use the miles, but I guess I will take that chance.

Looked at the starnet blocking thing...that is crazy they are getting away with that. Maybe if enough people make some noise about it they will change.

thanks again

UAL's FFP might be a better program than ANA's on the mile earning amount and partners. Also the SWU UG and CR1s. Regarding *net blocking, it might be the negative point (not for me since I usually use miles to UG...flying more than 200,000 BIS I expect to stay home during my free time).

ANA might not have the *net issue, but reedeeming a flight with them will cost you hundreds of USD. As for UA they only charge airport taxes.

Also think about the flexibility of MP vs ANA's, at MP you can redeem for anybody, but ANA has a policy that you can redeem only to relatives (I don't remember if it is 2nd or 3rd layer).

Please forgive me, but what is SWU and CR1?

Thanks.

Please forgive me, but what is SWU and CR1?

Thanks.

SWU: systemwide upgrade (you get 6 when reaching 1K + 2 additional when hitting 150k EQM)
CR1: confirmed region 1 upgrade (you get 2 when flying 10k EQM in a quarter to a max of 8/year)

I should also note that programs like bmi and Lufthansa Miles & More are more generous with mileage earning on premium class fares. Seriously consider (a) asking bmi for a status match and then (b) crediting to bmi.


While I agree that bmi has good mileage earning / burning on premium fares, their mileage program operations are a mess. Members on the bmi forum regularly report flights not being credited, awards not being ticketed, and a general lack of competence among phone agents. It's a shame that operational issues are dragging down an otherwise decent mileage program. :td:

If the OP is flying 10-12 intl trips/yr, I doubt he/she has time to chase down flight credits.... which makes bmi a less feasible option.

AG,

Thanks for the info, trust me, I would much rather ride on ANA, but currently I live in a city not served by ANA and dont really want to make a connection. Are you saying that UAL will get me more miles over time?

THanks.....

sushi

Me too, but NH now sells UA codeshares or their flights outright on their own site, in one ticket. Go to www.anaskyweb.com, enter your cities, and see.

The premium paid for the extra domestic leg in Y are _very_ good and beat what .bomb is offering. J, regrettably, aren't that good.

ANA Diamond members (equivalent of UA 1K) do get more in my opinion. Not only do you get upgrade points (JFK-NRT is 8 points for Y to C, you receive min. 40 for diamond, and an additional 2 for each additional 10,000 premium points earned, no limit), but you also recieve 125% bonus miles, not 100%. Additionally, you receive vouchers for use for free hotel nights, cash shopping vouchers, and your miles don't expire until 3 years after you lose diamond status, if you lose it. You get priority awards, and can even book ANY flight even if there aren't awards available (for a fee of extra miles, of course :) ) Plus, as previously stated, ANA doesn't do starnet blocking, and ANA miles are more valuable than those that would be earned on, for example, UA.

Lounges, on both you'd be *G so you would always have whatever gold lounge you wanted to use. But I don't think many would argue that RCC is better than NH's lounges.

Even if you have to "slum it" in economy, NH automatically gives you premium economy, which is an actual better, separate seat and compartment, compared to UA which just adds a few inches more between the same seats.

Overall the only thing united has is their new business class seats. lie-flat instead of angled lie-flat. everything else, IMO, is better with NH.

Thanks for all the replies.....it seems to me that since I will be riding on UAL exclusively to start with, it makes sense to use M+. It seems that all the elite bonus miles only come when actually riding on the carrier themselves. My understanding is even if you book a ANA flight as a UAL codeshare, you still would not get the bonus miles. (even if you could, I dont think I will have control of how the flights are booked, so odds are they would be booked as the actual flight) So even if i was ANA elite, if I rode on UAL, i would not get the 100% or whatever it is bonus miles. If I end up moving to an ANA city, I can switch over if it makes more sense at that point.

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i would say ANA program has better redemption value . each itinarary allows 4 stopovers , it's pretty good if you burn your miles into intra-asia tour.

For the 4 stopovers mentioned above I think you might mean only if flying an all-ANA metal trip?

For the 4 stopovers mentioned above I think you might mean only if flying an all-ANA metal trip?

4 stopovers allowed even when you fly partner airlines.

One thing I need to point out is that if you use UA mile for the partner award ticket, you can not change the date once the trip starts. Date change if using ANA mile is free.

ANA Diamond members (equivalent of UA 1K) do get more in my opinion. Not only do you get upgrade points (JFK-NRT is 8 points for Y to C, you receive min. 40 for diamond, and an additional 2 for each additional 10,000 premium points earned, no limit), but you also recieve 125% bonus miles, not 100%. Additionally, you receive vouchers for use for free hotel nights, cash shopping vouchers, and your miles don't expire until 3 years after you lose diamond status, if you lose it. You get priority awards, and can even book ANY flight even if there aren't awards available (for a fee of extra miles, of course :) ) Plus, as previously stated, ANA doesn't do starnet blocking, and ANA miles are more valuable than those that would be earned on, for example, UA.

Lounges, on both you'd be *G so you would always have whatever gold lounge you wanted to use. But I don't think many would argue that RCC is better than NH's lounges.

Even if you have to "slum it" in economy, NH automatically gives you premium economy, which is an actual better, separate seat and compartment, compared to UA which just adds a few inches more between the same seats.

Overall the only thing united has is their new business class seats. lie-flat instead of angled lie-flat. everything else, IMO, is better with NH.

Please show all facts not just what seems better. See below ANA's fine print on Economy booking classes mile earning. UA gives you 100% of miles regardless of booking class...

Economy class
(Normal fare, Eco-Wari Premium, Premium Light fare)
Y, E
100%

Economy class
(Eco-Wari fare/PEX fare)
B, S, M, K, L, W, G, H
70%

Economy class
(Inclusive Tour fare)
T
50%


* Please note that fares with a booking class of O, I, R, X or N are ineligible for mileage accrual.

mileage and they charge very high fuel surcharges. An example I can show you is if you use ANA Miles for a *A flight from LAX-FRA I often had to pay upwards of $250-300 in bogus charges. Booking the same flight using AC miles was about $70. Asking United for that same flight "no availability".
.

fuel surcharge page
http://www.ana.co.jp/wws/wws/fuel/index_e.html

fuel surcharge page
http://www.ana.co.jp/wws/wws/fuel/index_e.html

For award tkts UA only charges airport tax, no fuel charge. It makes NH miles even less valuable

I think if you are riding in C, or F, NH has far better service. If you are riding in F, NH has a slightly nicer seat. In all other ways, UA wins for you - nonstops, RDMs, more generous terms on redemption, no expiration, etc.

One think I would offer about *net blocking -- I almost always get the dates and trips I want on UA, sometimes on partners, as long as I'm reasonably flexible about routing. So for example I wanted 3 C seats right around Christmas between IAD and VIE (this was in early october). MP couldn't get me three seats (in any class) on the OS nonstop but offered several choices and dates connecting in MUC or FRA. I don't actually know if OS even had three seats open on any flights on my preferred dates, but I suspect not. [I stopped checking the ANA tool a while ago when I realized I simply saved time by calling UA to check on redemption options].

So in a nutshell don't worry about the blocking.

For award tkts UA only charges airport tax, no fuel charge. It makes NH miles even less valuable

actually, I'm not sure if that is accurate.
I just got a YYZ-ORD-NRT-HKG-SIN, flying on UA, NH twice and SQ
all in J/C class

None of the airlines charge me anything for fuel surcharges. Just airport taxes. Maybe if you are flying out of NRT using the ANA miles. Not sure. This whole industry is so full of mystery anyways

The one airline that is really bad is actually Air Canada and that is one reason why even though I am based in YYZ I didnt fly direct from YYZ-NRT. They are very expensive and their fuel surcharges are very high. Right now, the YYZ to NRT fuel surcharge is over $200. And yes, you have to pay that in your reward tix!

actually, I'm not sure if that is accurate.
I just got a YYZ-ORD-NRT-HKG-SIN, flying on UA, NH twice and SQ
all in J/C class

None of the airlines charge me anything for fuel surcharges. Just airport taxes. Maybe if you are flying out of NRT using the ANA miles. Not sure. This whole industry is so full of mystery anyways

The one airline that is really bad is actually Air Canada and that is one reason why even though I am based in YYZ I didnt fly direct from YYZ-NRT. They are very expensive and their fuel surcharges are very high. Right now, the YYZ to NRT fuel surcharge is over $200. And yes, you have to pay that in your reward tix!

Did you use your AC miles? If you use UA miles, there is no fuel surcharge. If you use NH miles you get charged almost discount fare. I flew with my family from NRT-BKK on NH using NH miles and actually I saved 10%. I could have bought the tkts on a discount travel agent and get a couple of nights in BKK included. After that I graduated from NH program and now only use UA. *net block might exist but I also found out that some flexible itinerary will get you where you want.

Did you use your AC miles? If you use UA miles, there is no fuel surcharge. If you use NH miles you get charged almost discount fare. I flew with my family from NRT-BKK on NH using NH miles and actually I saved 10%. I could have bought the tkts on a discount travel agent and get a couple of nights in BKK included. After that I graduated from NH program and now only use UA. *net block might exist but I also found out that some flexible itinerary will get you where you want.

Yeah I am on Aeroplan (AC)

Carl....

Thanks for the reply. It seems to me that MP is the best option since I will be flying on UA metal at least initially. The nonstop situation is the most important to me...I will be gone enough that I dont want to have to make a connection and be away from the family that much more!

I am curious as to the benefits at MP, I will likely be a 1K within about 6 months. Since I will always be in Biz class, what are the benefits to 1K other than the SWU, which I guess I can use to upgrade to First occasionally. Wont I already have access to the lounges and the priority this and priority that?? I will rarely if ever be checking bags, so that is not important to me. I will probably OLCI most of the time and I never really seem to have a long line in NRT for security.

anyway...thanks again for the help!

I am curious as to the benefits at MP, I will likely be a 1K within about 6 months. Since I will always be in Biz class, what are the benefits to 1K other than the SWU, which I guess I can use to upgrade to First occasionally. Wont I already have access to the lounges and the priority this and priority that?? I will rarely if ever be checking bags, so that is not important to me. I will probably OLCI most of the time and I never really seem to have a long line in NRT for security.

anyway...thanks again for the help!

So to me, the F seat always wins and I upgrade if I have SWUs or miles to spare (and I have been fortunate enough to have plenty of miles when needed).

The SWUs mean 6 legs guaranteed in F (if you plan in advance).

If you can buy all UA tickets on a UA MP visa you get double miles for each dollar spent, meaning that between the bonuses and miles you are flying you should have hundreds of thousands of RDMs to play with.

When in F on UA you get:

Great flat bed/seat.

Occasional fantastic service, usually ok service, sometimes lame service.

Much better lounges to access (IMO) -- NH F lounges are very nice with very nice service -- and if you are on later afternoon flights on UA out of NRT the NH F lounge is often completely empty.

With your spend I would not be surprised if you got GS (12 transpacs in C, perhaps 5k each for 60k spend could get you there -- easily if you are paying much more than that per RT -- a similar level of spend has done it for me in the past.) And then you get better upgrade and reward ticket acces and the GS agents which have always been great for me.

I realize that upgrading with miles (to F or otherwise) is semi-sacreligious on FT [Standard mantra: "Save all miles for partner *A awards, then complain when you can't get them"] but to me it is totally worth it.

But then, I also use my wife's amex points to upgrade NH C seats to NH F at 45k per segment, so I must be crazy.

-C

Carl,


Thanks again for the good info. I wont be buying the tix, so no miles on that end, but I plan on using the SWUs to upgrade on the way back to the states and i will want to sleep. (I will be on the 777 so no flat bed for awhile in C) I have spent enough time in F (ex-UAL employee) to know that I like it there more than C, not sure I want to use miles to get it, but I will see how the miles rack up and decide then.

thanks again...take care

From the perspective of someone who flies a lot of TPAC and is mostly interested in flying C for as little money as possible, UA is currently a much better choice than NH for two reasons.

1) The C class hard product is much better on UA (except SFO-NRT on the 777s).

2) The mileage program is much better on UA. As an example, assuming I fly 150k on discount economy this year. On UA, this gets me 300k miles (enough for 5 RT upgrades) plus with the DEQM program 12 SWUs (enough for 6 RT upgrades.). The same mileage on NH would get me 2006k miles (70% credit on discount economy) and 40 premium points. This is only enough for 6.5 RT UGs versus 11 on UA. On top of that you can't use the NH UGs on discount economy.

The situation may be different for people who buy mostly business class tickets at their companies expense, but if you are paying for your own tix or your company only pays for Economy, there is no difference.... UA is much, much better.

but I plan on using the SWUs to upgrade on the way back to the states and i will want to sleep. (I will be on the 777 so no flat bed for awhile in C) I have spent enough time in F (ex-UAL employee) to know that I like it there more than C, not sure I want to use miles to get it, but I will see how the miles rack up and decide then.

thanks again...take care

Remember that you can't upgrade to F on a Z fare....