Frontier Airlines EarlyReturns - F9 out of their minds...

So on my trip this week as I boarded on Sunday night I had the gate agent tell me that my bag would not fit in the overhead. It's the Victorinox 20" carry-on. She asked me to place it in the sizer and it fit, but she said it would need to be checked because it would not come out with me pulling hard on it. I told her the bins were much larger as I'd used it as a carry-on many times before. She maintained I had to check it ... and pay to check it! I asked her if the criteria was that it had to rattle like a bb in a boxcar in the sizer for it to go on board. She did not respond.

Then, when I came back last night, I walked right onto the aircraft and put the bag into the overhead, with enough room that someone was able to put their smaller laptop bag on top of it.

So is F9 just looking to make extra money by forcing people to check bags? I was not the only one being asked to pay the fee and check the bag. Then on the return nobody seemed to car as much larger bags that required being stowed sideways were allowed on board. Both flights were nearly full.

I will say that the attitude of the onboard staff has greatly improved since they seem to be recovering. When I flew a few months after the bankruptcy I could have sworn I was on AA with some old TWA FA's.

OMG, I think I know who this gate agent is! Was she a fat white trash looking gal?

I don't think this is a money issue. There is a lot of overhead space in the A319 but gate agents are watching because gate checks delay the flight. If they can catch an oversize bag before the pax gets on board, that saves time for the 10 pax waiting for the person to try to squeeze it in the overhead.

With all due respect, C17PSGR, did you read the OP's post??? Or did you just jump to conclusions? A 20" bag fits in the A319 overhead bin! Why was the agent questioning something that fit in the sizer and obviously would fit in the overhead bin??? Sounds like she single-handedly was trying to DELAY the boarding process!!!

I'm not sure what the driving force was behind it, but I got a refund out of the deal after making several phone calls. At first they wanted to give me a credit for future flights, but after some demands I finally got the money refunded on my card. Sure it was a business trip, so it wasn't my money; but it was the principle at that point.

I still think it was a money grab attempt. 4,000 more miles needed until I can try to book that nonexistent reward seat to Anchorage next summer.

With all due respect, C17PSGR, did you read the OP's post??? Or did you just jump to conclusions? A 20" bag fits in the A319 overhead bin! Why was the agent questioning something that fit in the sizer and obviously would fit in the overhead bin??? Sounds like she single-handedly was trying to DELAY the boarding process!!!

I did read the post ... and know it would fit. That doesn't mean its a money issue. Every occupation and company has some wackos - for example a US GA saw my toiletry bag a few days ago and challenged me on how I got my 2.5 ounce shaving cream travel size container through security and threatened to call TSA. All while I was sitting in the gate area and putting the plastic bag into my suitcase.

I did read the post ... and know it would fit. That doesn't mean its a money issue. Every occupation and company has some wackos - for example a US GA saw my toiletry bag a few days ago and challenged me on how I got my 2.5 ounce shaving cream travel size container through security and threatened to call TSA. All while I was sitting in the gate area and putting the plastic bag into my suitcase.

Exactly.

This was an obvious case of an overzealous agent. Even Frontier agreed with you.

This is meant to generate revenue from the bin hogs who bring their full size suitcase through security just to avoid paying the fees and force the people who follow the rules, pay the fees, or buy the more expensive Classic or Classic Plus tickets to gate check their bags.

If I choose to buy an economy ticket and take the time to pack light so that I can carry on, I shouldn't be forced to check my bag because Mr. Cheapo can't do the same.

Checko

Frontier is more liberal with carry on than most of the legacy carriers. However, I agree with Checko. People are trying to carry too many and too large items through security so they won't have to pay to check their bag. I know that Frontier management has told their employees to be on the lookout for people who are trying to carry on bags that should have been checked. Keep in mind that bags that normally fit in the bin won't fit on a full flight in bins that are stuffed with guitars, big rucksacks, carseats, refrigerators, sofas, etc.

People are trying to carry too many and too large items through security so they won't have to pay to check their bag. I know that Frontier management has told their employees to be on the lookout for people who are trying to carry on bags that should have been checked. Keep in mind that bags that normally fit in the bin won't fit on a full flight in bins that are stuffed with guitars, big rucksacks, carseats, refrigerators, sofas, etc.

This is the dark side of baggage fees (besides the fees themselves, that is). More stress for employees and customers alike. Still, fees appear to be here to stay.

This is the dark side of baggage fees (besides the fees themselves, that is). More stress for employees and customers alike. Still, fees appear to be here to stay.

Unfortunately, stress does not translate into additional revenue and their associated profits.

I'm not sure what the driving force was behind it, but I got a refund out of the deal after making several phone calls. At first they wanted to give me a credit for future flights, but after some demands I finally got the money refunded on my card. Sure it was a business trip, so it wasn't my money; but it was the principle at that point.

I still think it was a money grab attempt. 4,000 more miles needed until I can try to book that nonexistent reward seat to Anchorage next summer.

This is the dark side of baggage fees (besides the fees themselves, that is). More stress for employees and customers alike. Still, fees appear to be here to stay.

Is there any airline left that doesn't charge bag fees? (Southwest). They have about an equal number of free seats to Anchorage next summer (zero -- they don't go to Anchorage). I have never been hassled about bags on Southwest, perhaps because there is no money in it, as well as they tend to be really really friendly.

Is there any airline left that doesn't charge bag fees? (Southwest). They have about an equal number of free seats to Anchorage next summer (zero -- they don't go to Anchorage). I have never been hassled about bags on Southwest, perhaps because there is no money in it, as well as they tend to be really really friendly.

You are entitled to your opinion, but the portion I bold portion is completely untrue.

There is a ton of money in bag fees. The profits of Frontier is completely attributed to it. Southwest knows they are leaving a ton of money on the table by not charging bag fees. Alaska started charging fees because they did not see any trends of passengers booking towards them because when they didn't charge fees.

Yes, it does engender some loyalty, however, most airlines don't charge bag fees to their most loyal customers, so it's a wash.

What is leftover? The majority of the people who look for the cheapest fare and cannot think beyond that point.

Checko

You are entitled to your opinion, but the portion I bold portion is completely untrue.



Sorry, I meant that I had not been hassled AT THE GATE about bags because at Southwest, the gate agents have very little interest in how big of a bag you are bringing on.

If you somehow got past security with a bag that clearly won't fit in the overhead -- one that doesn't even come close to going into the size box, then a Southwest agent probably is going to say let's gate check that one. But, for a 20 inch-er? The gate agent has no profit motive to try to check that one. If it "just barely fit" in the size box, why would a Southwest agent say that one is too big? Its a hassle for you (if you wanted to check it, you already would have unless it represents bag #3) and its a hassle for them (why confront a passenger and make him mad when the airline isn't going to collect more revenue for it?)

Yes, it is a classic economic question that some day will probably be studied in business schools -- does the additional revenue from bag fees outweigh the lost revenue from customers who go to the other airline that doesn't charge bag fees, as that revenue translates to the bottom line (net of the cost of collecting the bag fees vs. the cost of transporting both the passenger and his bags). The question is even more complex than that, because you have to factor in that F9 or UA serves some cities that WN airline doesn't, so F9 or UA has a lock on that market, at least in the short term, but then what happens long term if WN decides to enter that market?

Net price (including bag fees and change fees) is not the only factor, and it is true that bag fees are waived for elite status members at the legacy carriers including Frontier. But, since Frontier is an all coach airline like Southwest, one has to weigh whether the fare difference, if any, is worth it for Direct TV. Lots of factors go into that, like if you are going non-stop or connecting, how it will affect your status (A-list or Ascent/Summit), how often you go to a particular city and how well that city is served by WN, F9, UA and a host of other choices.

I look for the cheapest fare but I also feel that I think beyond that point. I ask myself if Frontier's coach seat is any better than Southwest's coach seat? (My answer to myself is NO). I ask myself if the bag fees, change fees and fare difference is worth it for Direct TV (free on classic or $5 on Economy) (My answer to myself is NO). I ask myself if 16 segments vs 20,000 miles is a better deal for me (I fly mostly 600-800 mile flights, so the answer is NO, only takes about 10,000 miles on WN for a free ticket). I ask myself if my ability to redeem free tickets is better on WN or F9. So far, its been better on WN. Of course, I can't redeem a WN RR to Anchorage, but from the OP, it doesn't sound like he holds much hope for that either.

Because of my particular flying situation, I can make A-list on WN but can't make Ascent on F9. That is because of point-to-point on WN vs. hub-and-spoke on F9. But, again, it depends on your situation. Open seating with A-list works better for me than assigned seating with no status on F9. Even when I had status on F9, I never seemed to have enough to get an open middle, which, in my opinion, is the "first class" of an all coach airline.

Also, the bag fees serve as a classic "barrier to entry" for me. Even if I could make Ascent, I have to pay the bag fees until I get there. And, even if I do get there, I still have to pay change fees.

YMMV.

Yes, it is a classic economic question that some day will probably be studied in business schools -- does the additional revenue from bag fees outweigh the lost revenue from customers who go to the other airline that doesn't charge bag fees, as that revenue translates to the bottom line (net of the cost of collecting the bag fees vs. the cost of transporting both the passenger and his bags).

Actually the question is a little different: "In the long run, does an airline make more money with bag fees or without them?"

This is not as easy to answer "Yes" as it seems. In the long run, market-clearing fare levels (exclusive of fees) will be a little lower. The fees incur direct costs to collect, administer, and as we see here, occasionally refund. The fees diminish the realized travel value for customers who would prefer to check bags but avoid doing so. And there are efficiency losses due to oversubscribed overhead bins, gate-checked bags, and arguments with customers, as seen in this thread.

As a matter of economics, there are a few ways that baggage fees can succeed:

1) The customer is fooled and stays fooled, or
2) Bag-checking customers attribute a higher average value to their trips than do carry-on customers, by approximately the amount of the fees, or
3) The reduction in checked baggage results in sufficient reduction in fuel costs or sufficient increase in freight revenue.

I'm not sure any business school class will be equal to the task of evaluating this decision.

Southwest knows they are leaving a ton of money on the table by not charging bag fees.


I have been thinking about the above statement. Southwest isn't leaving any money on the table. They are leaving it in my pocket/bank account.

I have been thinking about the above statement. Southwest isn't leaving any money on the table. They are leaving it in my pocket/bank account.

True, but it isn't helping them make any money lately either.

I just find it funny how Southwest seems to come up in every Frontier thread. People still fly AA, UA, US, et. al. who don't allow anyone but their elites and first class passengers get around the baggage fees. At least Frontier gives people a choice when buying their ticket and some extra goodies for forking over the extra money.

Everyone seeems to assume that Southwest is always the cheapest, AND, they don't charge for baggage. I'm always comparing prices and have found that about 80% of the time Frontier is cheaper. In most cases, Frontier's Classic Plus fares are considerably cheaper than Southwest's Business Select fares and Frontier offers services that Southwest does not.

Everyone seeems to assume that Southwest is always the cheapest, AND, they don't charge for baggage. I'm always comparing prices and have found that about 80% of the time Frontier is cheaper. In most cases, Frontier's Classic Plus fares are considerably cheaper than Southwest's Business Select fares and Frontier offers services that Southwest does not.

Southwest is quite often not the cheapest, and other airlines sometimes beat Southwest even including bag fees when the tickets are purchased far in advance. Frontier beats Southwest on fares even more than other airlines do.

But remember that every Southwest ticket includes a free option to cancel or change the trip with no loss of the money you paid. That can be very important. To me, it's worth a 20% premium.

True, but it isn't helping them make any money lately either.

I just find it funny how Southwest seems to come up in every Frontier thread. People still fly AA, UA, US, et. al. who don't allow anyone but their elites and first class passengers get around the baggage fees. At least Frontier gives people a choice when buying their ticket and some extra goodies for forking over the extra money.

I think the difference is that both Frontier and Southwest are all coach airlines. With AA, UA and US, there is a small chance of upgrading to first class. However, my upgrade percentage was far better with NW. Even recently, I was able to upgrade using miles on a NW flight (Delta paint but "operated by NW"). Later on that trip, even offering up 15,000 miles to UA did not yield an upgrade.

While Direct TV is nice, I'm not sure I want to pay $5 for it. Granted, you can buy a CLASSIC fare, for $20 and get two free bags and Direct TV. I just never find that much good on TV to make it worth it.

Other goodies? You have to be elite to get the priority bag check line, but at that point, you don't have to buy a CLASSIC fare to get the two free bags.

Frontier has a few destinations that Southwest doesn't serve and if you need or want to go to these places, then Frontier does make sense. But, based on the OP, getting to these destinations on FF miles (esp. Mexico and Anchorage) appears to be difficult.


Everyone seeems to assume that Southwest is always the cheapest, AND, they don't charge for baggage. I'm always comparing prices and have found that about 80% of the time Frontier is cheaper. In most cases, Frontier's Classic Plus fares are considerably cheaper than Southwest's Business Select fares and Frontier offers services that Southwest does not.

WOW, that just is not my experience. However, I compare Wanna Get Away fares to Frontier Classic fares. Maybe on a last minute flight, this might be true, but on a 2 week or more plan ahead flight, I just rarely see that. However, I would never be one to discourage anyone from calling up WN's web site, F9's web site, UA's web site, Orbitz and anything else that will help you to make the most informed decision.

I'm still just not sure what those "other services" are. There is Direct TV and priority bag check (if you are elite). Frontier does fly non-stop from Denver to a few cities that WN either does not serve or does not serve non-stop. Frontier has assigned seating, WN open seating. If you know how to play the open seating game and you are non-status with both, I think you come out better with open seating. WN flies non-stop between other city pairs that Frontier either doesn't serve non-stop (have to connect in Denver) or city pairs where connecting in Denver is not practical (LAX-OAK, for example).


Southwest is quite often not the cheapest, and other airlines sometimes beat Southwest even including bag fees when the tickets are purchased far in advance. Frontier beats Southwest on fares even more than other airlines do.

But remember that every Southwest ticket includes a free option to cancel or change the trip with no loss of the money you paid. That can be very important. To me, it's worth a 20% premium.

I can say that on DEN-LAS, Southwest is almost always the cheapest. But, that is not to say that they are always the cheapest on other routes.

The other thing that I really like at Southwest, because of the no change fees, is that if the price of a ticket goes down (and this happens quite frequently), I get the money back, in the form of Ticketless Travel Funds. I have saved 100's this year alone because of this.