Diners Club Club Rewards - 1,095 points per 1,000 AA miles?

I've searched for "handling fee" but came up empty.

Frequent AA poster, I am afraid I am new to the DC program: I've signed up because with CitiGold the annual fee is waived and FTers pointed out that the card provides primary rental car insurance.

I got a newsletter linking to this article (http://www.smartertravel.com/travel-advice/american-express-diners-cards-change-reward-programs.html)stating that Diners is about to devalue points by 17%, so I went to transfer my 8k points to AA.

All the marketing material says 1:1 redemption ratio, yet when I follow the various links to do the transfer (and end up at https://www.citibank.com/dinersus/jsp/clubrewards/catalog/english/certificate_list.jsp?category=c50a9ad0&subcategory=fc79feb6), I am charged 1,095 DC points per 1,000 AA miles, a 1% devaluation.

Am I doing something wrong or is the program advertised in what it looks like to me a fraudulent way through customer deceit?

Puzzled :confused:

Is your Diners Club card based in the USA ?

If it is then yes it appears that you are correct. DC in the USA charges a "handling fee" of 95 points per 1000 points transferred.

https://www.citibank.com/dinersus/jsp/clubrewards/catalog/english/cart.jsp

I hadn't realized this was the case, as I am a Canadian based DC cardholder, and the Canadian program doesn't charge a handling fee when transferring points to airline miles.

I hope they aren't planning to devalue points in the DC Canadian program, as we already have to transfer 1,250 DC points to get 1,000 flyer miles.

This is not new. Diners, in common with American Express Membership Rewards, adds a fee when transferring points to miles. The fee is to recover the Federal excise tax on air travel, and can be paid in money ($0.95/1000) or with points (95/1000). Inasmuch as the points are worth more than $0.01 each I always pay with money.

The link in your post seems to have changed, but I found the article here...

http://www.smartertravel.com/travel-advice/american-express-diners-cards-change-reward-programs.html?id=3523927

Mr Perkins writes...

Diners has devalued its points-to-miles program: you now need 1.2 Diners points for each mile in a partner line's program, a devaluation of about 17 percent.

...but does not explain the source of this information. It seems incorrect to say "has devalued" because the 1:1 transfers are still available.

This is not new. Diners, in common with American Express Membership Rewards, adds a fee when transferring points to miles. Thank you.

I feel violated; how utterly deceiving--disgusting. The fact that they even try to blame others for their deceit (taxes are a cost of doing business like electricity and insurance) is even more revolting.

the 1:1 transfers are still available.Uh, as I've just found out this transfer is not available: the only transfer available is 1:0.91.

Thanks for confirming the suspicion of consumer fraud; that card now goes permanently to the travel emergency folder, to be used for nothing more than rent a cars.

This is the official link still posted by Diners Club with their points to miles conversion rates: https://www.citibank.com/dinersus/jsp/clubrewards/catalog/english/certificate_list.jsp?category=c50a9ad0&subcategory=fc79feb6

I've had the card for over 15 years, my memory is kind of fuzzy so I can't tell you if points to mile conversions have always incurred a 95 cent per 1K point conversion but I can say that it has been that way for at least several years.

Still a great card to have in my opinion.

I wonder if Mr. Perkins is confusing the Canadian DC program with the program for US based DC cardholers ? The list of partner airlines that he cites sounds very much like the list we Canadians can convert points to, not the much larger list of transfer options that US based DC cardholders have ?

I wonder if Mr. Perkins is confusing the Canadian DC program with the program for US based DC cardholers ?

I think you're right, aside from listing AirTran which is not a partner in either country.

Perkins' list (9):

Diners' current list of partners—AirTran, American, British Airways, Delta, El Al, Eva Airways, Mexicana, SAS, and Thai

Canadian partners (9):
Alaska, American, British Airways, Delta, El Al, Eva, Mexicana, SAS, Thai

USA partners (18) :
Air Canada, Alaska, American, British Airways, Delta, El Al, Eva, Fontier, Hawaiian, Iceland, Korean, Mexicana, Midwest, SAS, South African, Southwest, Thai, Virgin Atlantic plus Amtrak

I have asked Diners Club by email and will report when they reply.

...but does not explain the source of this information. It seems incorrect to say "has devalued" because the 1:1 transfers are still available.

Typical shoddy journalism ( with apologies to the few good journalists there may be out there ) ! Why let research and facts get in the way of making up a story about the big bad corporation sticking it to the consumer.

To the OP, I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to transfer my DC points. In the past DC has provided ample notice of changes to their program. When United and Continental ceased to be redemption partners for Canadian cardholders a few years back I believe they gave us a couple of months notice. If ( and at this point it seems like a BIG IF ) there is a devaluation coming DC should provide us with lots of warning.

I've searched for "handling fee" but came up empty.

All the marketing material says 1:1 redemption ratio, yet when I follow the various links to do the transfer (and end up at https://www.citibank.com/dinersus/jsp/clubrewards/catalog/english/certificate_list.jsp?category=c50a9ad0&subcategory=fc79feb6), I am charged 1,095 DC points per 1,000 AA miles, a 1% devaluation.

:

1
1095 : 1000 is a 9% devaluation by points, 5% by fees if you value miles at 2c.

Also charging a 6% fee can be a 6% or a 3% devaluation for the Amex as well.

2
I thought DC is no longer offered in the US?
I closed mine 2 years ago and have not reapplied as I was told that it is closed to new members.

3.
DC often has 2:1 or 1.5 :1 for BA

The link in the OP is broken.
DC (US) has charged this fee since at least early 2002.

Something is up with this whole thread.

The link in the OP is broken.See http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/12315327-post3.htmlSomething is up with this whole thread.And what that might be, oh you ESP-equipped person?

I've been a cardmember for ~2 years. I have read the material that came with my card; none talked about a 1,095 points for 1,000 miles conversion (1:0.91 ratio), but 1,000 miles per 1,000 points.

This is my first redemption so I just found out about the "at least since early 2002" fee that is so piss-poorly disclosed to new customers.

And this economy and the mortgage situation probably makes me super-sensitive about scams and customer fraud.

All the marketing material says 1:1 redemption ratio, yet when I follow the various links to do the transfer (and end up at https://www.citibank.com/dinersus/jsp/clubrewards/catalog/english/certificate_list.jsp?category=c50a9ad0&subcategory=fc79feb6), I am charged 1,095 DC points per 1,000 AA miles, a 1% devaluation.

Am I doing something wrong or is the program advertised in what it looks like to me a fraudulent way through customer deceit?

Puzzled :confused:When I follow that link and select AA miles I get the option to pay for the handling fee with either 95 points or 95 cents, as I have for many years. I always choose to pay 95 cents.

I feel violated; how utterly deceiving--disgusting.

Yes, indeed, Mr Perkin's information is incorrect. Citi says "...we do not have any changes recently regarding the redemption ratio of Diners Club rewards program."

See http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/12315327-post3.htmlAnd what that might be, oh you ESP-equipped person?

I've been a cardmember for ~2 years. I have read the material that came with my card; none talked about a 1,095 points for 1,000 miles conversion (1:0.91 ratio), but 1,000 miles per 1,000 points.

This is my first redemption so I just found out about the "at least since early 2002" fee that is so piss-poorly disclosed to new customers.

And this economy and the mortgage situation probably makes me super-sensitive about scams and customer fraud.

Several years ago, DC added a 95 cent fee (or 95 point fee) per 1000 miles redeemed. While I have NO idea what was said (or not said) to new applicants, DC gave existing cardholders more than adequate notice and explanation of the change. While I didn't particularly like the change, I decided that the DC was still worth it.

I believe that the various surcharges that rental car companies add for accruing airline mileage are much more difficult to find and never fully explained anywhere.

Furthermore, airlines have started adding fees for redeeming miles. Some charge $25 just for redeeming an award ticket, while they still advertise "free" award travel at xx,xxx miles.

Thanks for confirming the suspicion of consumer fraud;

Where's the fraud? :confused:

Thanks for confirming the suspicion of consumer fraud; that card now goes permanently to the travel emergency folder, to be used for nothing more than rent a cars.

I hate to sound unsympathetic, but you are sounding a bit over the top with this "consumer fraud" thing.

The handling fee is clearly spelled out in the T and C's on the dinersclubus.com website;

REDEMPTION REQUIREMENTS
Frequent Flyer Rewards: Points must be redeemed in 1,000-point increments (except as otherwise specifically provided in the current Club Rewards Online Catalog). Miles-To-Points: Miles must be exchanged in 10,000-mile increments with a maximum of 50,000 miles per calendar year. Expedited Frequent Flyer Reward and Guest Point Redemptions: $35.00 or 2,500 points. Frequent Flyer Reward Handling Fee: $0.95 or 95 points for each 1,000 points redeemed. Points-To-Cash: Points must be redeemed in 15,000-point increments.

Handling charges and fees have become a fact of life in the points and miles redeeming game. If you aren't prepared for them you are destined to be disappointed.

The Terms & Conditions are clear.

My biggest disappointment with DC was when UA dropped out of the program. Other than that, the card has served me well.

All the marketing material says 1:1 redemption ratio, yet when I follow the various links to do the transfer (and end up at https://www.citibank.com/dinersus/jsp/clubrewards/catalog/english/certificate_list.jsp?category=c50a9ad0&subcategory=fc79feb6), I am charged 1,095 DC points per 1,000 AA miles, a 1% devaluation.

Am I doing something wrong
Yes, you are doing something wrong.

It is a 1:1 redemoption rate plus a US$0.95 (ie, 95 cent) handling fee per 1000 points transferred to Frequent Programs, with the option of paying 95 points instead of 95 cents.

But that's only the option, and IMHO, it's an option not even worth considering, unless you value miles at no more than 1c each.

The way I redeem miles for international business class only, my AA miles are worth much more than 2c even, so no way in the world would I ever consider paying 95 points (which is worth several dollars to me), instead of just 95 cents.

So what you are doing wrong is looking at the points option as if it were the only option. That, in turn, comes out to looking like the handling fee is 1%. But if you pay the 95 cents instead of the 95 points, then:

If you value miles at 2c each, the handling fee is effectively 0.5%.

If you value miles at 3c each, the handling fee is effectively 0.33%.

If you value mles at 4c each, the handling fee is effectively 0.25%.

If you value miles at 5c each (not unreasonable if you restrict your use miles to only expensive situations like int'l business class in the peak periods), the handling fee is effectively 0.2%.

Meanwhile, this is only for frequent flyer programs (airlines). You can transfer to hotel programs with no handling fee. (I'm not sure about rail programs, ie Amtrak.)

Also, the fee is only on the points transferred, not on the miles you get in the transfer. This is very important, becausethat Diners Club runs period promos periodically for transferring out (5k bonus for transferring some minimum number points to AA miles, 50% bonus on transferring to BA, etc), and in those cases, there is no additional handling fee for the bonus. Thus in those case, as a percentage, the handling fee is even less!

AMEX Membership Rewards has a similar handling fee. And, until the very recent arrival of Chase's Sapphire, these have been the only two "transfer to a variety of airline and hotel programs" card programs, so I'm not sure why you assumed they might not act a little differently than whatever else you had used before.

Oh, and on the supposed 17% devluation: I think you misunderstood what it applies to in two ways! It applies to the Tailored Travel program (and in Canada), not the transferring points to miles (in the US)! ANd it's been discussed on FT already:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/diners-club-club-rewards/816407-canadians-1-cr-point-0-017-travel.html

So you're rushing to transfer out 8K points to AA miles, just because you misunderstood an article about a change in Canada to something having nothing to do with transfering to AA miles??? :confused:

Meanwhile, this is only for frequent flyer programs (airlines). You can transfer to hotel programs with no handling fee. (I'm not sure about rail programs, ie Amtrak.)


I think you mean "e.g.", not "ie", but for what its worth, I transferred several thousand Club Rewards points to Amtrak Guest Rewards with no handling fee whatsoever in March 2008. Nothing seems to have changed in terms and conditions since then.

Amtrak is not an airline, so its points are not subject to the US Excise Tax on FF miles, therefore DC does not collect what it doesn't pay! Likewise, DC transfers to hotel-loyalty programs are fee-free :) !

I dislike the fee, but it was already there when I joined DC. I knew it & decided to tolerate it.

I think Amex fee is much less then 95 cents per 1k.

...DC does not collect what it doesn't pay!

Ah, but Diners does assess the fee on transfers to foreign based airlines, even though the excise tax evidently does not apply. American Express does not assess its fee on transfers to foreign carriers. Merrill+ VISA, Chase Rewards Plus VISA and Chase Amazon VISA do not assess the fee on transfers to BA. Starwood Preferred Guest does not assess the fee on transfers to any airline.

It's a decision by Citi to pass this cost to customers. I think it's worthwhile to have the flexibility, but I fully understand those who disagree.

I think Amex fee is much less then 95 cents per 1k.

American Express charges an excise tax offset fee of $0.0006 per point, with a maximum fee of $99 , that's $0.60 per thousand, USA-based airlines only.

Oops, Mia, I stand corrected! :o I wonder why DC charges it for BA miles :confused: . I always understood it as an excise tax offset fee.
In any case, it makes both DC & Amex look like pikers--like "treating" a friend to dinner in a restaurant but paying only the menu price & requiring him/her to pay the sales tax himself :eek: !

I think you mean "e.g.", not "ie"
I did mean "ie", because while in theory it's Rail Programs (plural), in actuality there is not only just one Rail Program (singular) that Diners transfers to, but AFAIK there is only one Rail Program (singular) in the whole world (ie, a frequent-something programi where you both earn and redeem on standalone rail tickets).

("Standalone" is key, because some airlines let you use miles or earn miles on codeshares with rail lines, but AFAIK in those case only in connection with a flight.)

Having said that, I just realized that Diners doesn't even classify it as a Rail Program! It classifies it as a Frequent Guest Program (all the others of which are hotel programs). They do have a section for "Car & Rail Gift Cards", but (a) that's not points, and (b) I'm not sure how to use gift cards from Avis or Budget (the only two companies listed there) on rail travel! :)

...AFAIK there is only one Rail Program (singular) in the whole world (ie, a frequent-something programi where you both earn and redeem on standalone rail tickets).

Look north...

http://www.viarail.ca/en/useful-info/via-preference-reward-program

Shopping portal...

https://eboutique.viapreference.com/?lang=en

This site indicates that many European rail systems have similar programs...

http://www.railteam.co.uk//Frequent-travellers/Exclusive-Benefits


...but no credit card mentioned.

This site indicates that many European rail systems have similar programs...

http://www.railteam.co.uk//Frequent-travellers/Exclusive-Benefits

Thanks. Although they have to work on their links. :) While the link for EuroStar, for example, clearly talks about a points program, the link for SBB, which RailTeam implies has a points program with tiers, links to a site for travel cards, with no mention of a points program or achieving a tier.