DiningBuzz! - "The 17% is a service charge, sir, it is not a tip."

Place: an old line San Francisco steakhouse called "Alfred's."

They actually have handouts explaining

(a) that the charge is subject to sales tax (making it more like 18.5%)

and

(b) that if you want to give something JUST to your waiter, you should tip in addition.

The waiter claimed he only got 45% of the service charge so we should tip him in addition. Haven't waiters always had to split their tips with bus boys and such?

This is a scam, and I don't like it. Really spoiled the dinner for me.

The point of the forced tip....oh sorry I mean "service charge" is that service is included so no need to tip.

I do not find it appealing to go to a place that begs in the way that you describe.

I am not a fan of this either -- I dislike restaurants and especially hotels which add the service charge and still expect an additional gratuity. I tend to tip more when not "boxed" in like this.....

This entire tip thing in the US really does go a little toooo far sometimes... :rolleyes:

since when do kitchen staff employees get tipped anyway?? that's absurd, they get paid a fair wage where servers get less than 1/2 of minimum wage. this is just the restaurant's way of paying the kitchen staff less...

Is this like a $35pp kind of place? More or less?

If it's $35pp...that's $5.95 per person. If he has 2 tables on 4 and everyone stays for 2 hours he is making $21 just from the service charge for those 2 hours. That means he's making $8/hr CA minimum wage (CA doesn't do tip wage from what I've read) + $11/hour just from service charge.
...do they do a surcharge for the mandatory health insurance too?

Get the Better Business Bureau involved?

since when do kitchen staff employees get tipped anyway?? that's absurd, they get paid a fair wage where servers get less than 1/2 of minimum wage. this is just the restaurant's way of paying the kitchen staff less...

Probably not kitchen staff, but the water refiller people. In CA they don't do tipped wage and minimum wage is $8/hr from what I found online. $8/hr for kitchen help isn't much, but I'd hope any good steak house pays kitchen staff above minimum wage.

17% is an odd number. I typically tip more than that, but autograt me and that's all you get.

Get the Better Business Bureau involved?

good idea... ^

17% seems customary for parties 6 and up. As for being dogged by the waiter for insufficient tip, this is crazy. He should be taking that up with management not complaining to the customers if he is getting screwed. How should the customer know the percent breakdown?

When I worked in a restaurant, the front of the house staff divvied the tips (host/ess, wait, bus) and the kitchen were paid their regular salary.

While I would be inclined to add a couple % to bring it close to 20%, I would probably complain to the manager about poor service.

Is this like a $35pp kind of place? More or less?

If it's $35pp...that's $5.95 per person. If he has 2 tables on 4 and everyone stays for 2 hours he is making $21 just from the service charge for those 2 hours. That means he's making $8/hr CA minimum wage (CA doesn't do tip wage from what I've read) + $11/hour just from service charge.
...do they do a surcharge for the mandatory health insurance too?

No, it's an $85 pp kind of place. No health insurance surcharge. However, this is the only restaurant I've been to in California that managed to make this "service charge" subject to sales tax!

health insurance surcharge..??? are you guys serious...? patrons are supposed to chip-in to pay for staff health insurance..???!!!!

:eek:

Thehealth insurance surcharge is vaguely related to an SF law that requires restaurants to provide insurance to employees. As part of a protest of this by some owners, some restaurants started putting a surcharge on the bill for what is allegedly their cost for insurance. Why this is any different than charging for butter is unclear.

I don’t like the idea of tipping at all. It isn’t the customer’s job to pay the staff, it is the employers.

All tipping does is create an entitlement which leads to many people in those jobs doing shoddy work and then demanding a tip. I’ll tip someone if the service deserves it. If the service is just ‘average’ then to bad, no tip for you.

Thehealth insurance surcharge is vaguely related to an SF law that requires restaurants to provide insurance to employees. As part of a protest of this by some owners, some restaurants started putting a surcharge on the bill for what is allegedly their cost for insurance. Why this is any different than charging for butter is unclear.

Oddly enough, I have my own sort of protest. I would choose not to eat at those places. If enough people chose to do so, then the owners wouldn't have to worry at all about paying for the insurance for their staff.

Mike

I don’t like the idea of tipping at all. It isn’t the customer’s job to pay the staff, it is the employers.

All tipping does is create an entitlement which leads to many people in those jobs doing shoddy work and then demanding a tip. I’ll tip someone if the service deserves it. If the service is just ‘average’ then to bad, no tip for you.

I don't think tipping creates any such entitlement - I think it actually encourages better service. My experience is that wait staff service is better in tipping cultures than it is in non or lower tipping cultures. This is not universally true (Japan is a notable exception) but it's been my experience more often than not.

I was under the impression TIPS was actually an acronym for:

To
Insure (although I think it should be ensure but hey, that screws it up right?)
Proper
Service

So I agree with just not going there...it's crazy to have a serving professional to solicit further tip. What's the point? You get crappy service and you still get hosed for 17%?

Glad I moved out of SF, that would drive me nuts to see owners of these places charging for the health care bill...it called the cost of doing business. Move the darn place to Daly City if you're that annoyed.

Did the server mention the service charge before the OP ordered, or did it just appear on the bill? I would probably have left before ordering if it was mentioned first. Either way, I would have told the manager why I would not be returning, and that dissatisfied customers don't suffer in silence.

This entire tip thing in the US really does go a little toooo far sometimes... :rolleyes:

Not to start a big fight (though I might), I am convinced that I receive better service in restaurants in the US because of our culture of tipping if and only the service is good. Servers in the US will hustle and be friendly for because their wages are directly related to the service that they provide. I travel to Europe twice a year (Italy, France, Germany, Switzerland, etc) and the Caribbean once a year. I have eaten at a wide range of restaurants in those countries and I have found the service to be, more often than not, stiff or brusque. I believe that waiters in Europe do not fawn over me because they are already getting a decent wage and do not need more scraps from me.

Do you want to be fawned over? I find it unseemly. I like the Euro model a lot better. Bring me food, bring me beer. No need to fake smile and be all over me while i'm eating.

Did the server mention the service charge before the OP ordered, or did it just appear on the bill? I would probably have left before ordering if it was mentioned first. Either way, I would have told the manager why I would not be returning, and that dissatisfied customers don't suffer in silence.

Yes, I knew about the service charge beforehand and although I don't like that approach, others in my party were really looking forward to this place so we went regardless.

I did NOT know that I was going to have to listen to begging afterwards. Most US restaurants that add a service charge also sneak in a blank "tip" line on the charge card receipt, but I've not seen it pushed beyond that before.

UGH!!! The whole "service charge" thing is like the damned "fuel surcharge"... If it is an expense related to providing the service, then they should role it INTO the price...

If it is unrelated to providing the good/service, and is indeed instead of a "TIP" then it should be OPTIONAL...

Any restaurant that has a required "service charge" for providing SERVICE then pretty much forfeit the right to expect any kind of significant TIP on top of it...

Do you want to be fawned over? I find it unseemly. I like the Euro model a lot better. Bring me food, bring me beer. No need to fake smile and be all over me while i'm eating.

It's not about being fawned over, it's about getting efficient and knowledgable service.

it's about getting efficient and knowledgable service.Which I find to be more lacking in the US then elsewhere.

It's not about being fawned over, it's about getting efficient and knowledgable service.

Bingo! ^


Which I find to be more lacking in the US then elsewhere.

Not my experience at all. Then again, YMMV.

Probably not kitchen staff, but the water refiller people. In CA they don't do tipped wage and minimum wage is $8/hr from what I found online. $8/hr for kitchen help isn't much, but I'd hope any good steak house pays kitchen staff above minimum wage.

17% is an odd number. I typically tip more than that, but autograt me and that's all you get.

ah, but it does include the kitchen staff. directly from their dinner menu...
Choice of Dessert

"A 17% taxable service charge will be added to your bill. This allows for a fair distribution to non-management employees between the service staff (tipped employees) and the kitchen staff (non-tipped employees). This distribution shows the entire staff how appreciated they are.
Any additional tips will stay directly with your server.
Thank you for your understanding and patronage.
The Petri Family "

I was under the impression TIPS was actually an acronym for:

Nah - that's bogus etymology.

Not my experience at all. Then again, YMMV.

Agreed. I find servers at the good restaurants in the U.S. to be very helpful and knowledgeable, definitely more so than many other foreign countries (particularly Europe).

...Glad I moved out of SF, that would drive me nuts to see owners of these places charging for the health care bill...it called the cost of doing business...First time that I saw this in SF was in a place where the service was rather ordinary and we were querulous about it, to say the least.

Our companions, who were local, said that the proprietor of this restaurant had been an outspoken opponent of the measure and had placed it on the bills in order to continually call attention to its absurdities.

Therefore, my response was to deduct it from whatever I had thought the waitstaff was worth that evening and think no more about it.

The waiter claimed he only got 45% of the service charge so we should tip him in addition.
:rolleyes:

This is a scam, and I don't like it. Really spoiled the dinner for me.
I agree with you 100%. Is there any legal recourse if you refuse to pay the full 17%?

Thehealth insurance surcharge is vaguely related to an SF law that requires restaurants to provide insurance to employees. As part of a protest of this by some owners, some restaurants started putting a surcharge on the bill for what is allegedly their cost for insurance. Why this is any different than charging for butter is unclear.

Dining in San Francisco I saw this a few times a surcharge called 'healthy san francisco surcharge' it was 7 or 8% I believe...:rolleyes:

First time that I saw this in SF was in a place where the service was rather ordinary and we were querulous about it, to say the least.

Our companions, who were local, said that the proprietor of this restaurant had been an outspoken opponent of the measure and had placed it on the bills in order to continually call attention to its absurdities.

Therefore, my response was to deduct it from whatever I had thought the waitstaff was worth that evening and think no more about it.

I ate at 4 places, 3 of them had this surcharge....I don't think it is just 1 or two owners or anything now, seems to be adopted by all/most.

All restaurants in Bermuda have this "service" charge and it shows at many restaurants in my opinion (ie. poor service since the employees don't have to work for a tip).

The ultimate cheek was a jar for tips by the till of a self-service cafeteria in Budapest.
Last month I received particularly bad service from a waiter in Las Vegas, so I left two one-cent coins as a tip.

I ate at 4 places, 3 of them had this surcharge....I don't think it is just 1 or two owners or anything now, seems to be adopted by all/most.

Nope, this health insurance surcharge is far from universal in SF. In fact, I haven't run into it once yet, knock on wood.

Nope, this health insurance surcharge is far from universal in SF. In fact, I haven't run into it once yet, knock on wood.

Book a few places on opentable....I seem to have hit the motherlode. :D

I was under the impression TIPS was actually an acronym for:

To
Insure (although I think it should be ensure but hey, that screws it up right?)
Proper
Service



The implication being that w/o a tip you should expect improper (ie, crappy) service?

Perhaps the food and hotel service industry should post signage indicating that the price/rate you are paying is for the product, not the service, hence the employee wages, etc, are not funded from what you as a customer is paying ??

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Nope, this health insurance surcharge is far from universal in SF. In fact, I haven't run into it once yet, knock on wood.

Book a few places on opentable....I seem to have hit the motherlode. :D

is the surcharge legal...?

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is the surcharge legal...?

I don't know, I paid it however :rolleyes:

I expect it is legal if properly disclosed in advance. There is probably no obligation even to have the amount of the charge correlate with the cost of the health insurance.

Walking to another restaurant, even if you had an opentable reservation, is also legal. It's rare that I do this, but common that I never return to a restaurant that plays tricks like Alfred's did or adds BS surcharges.

First time that I saw this in SF was in a place where the service was rather ordinary and we were querulous about it, to say the least.

Our companions, who were local, said that the proprietor of this restaurant had been an outspoken opponent of the measure and had placed it on the bills in order to continually call attention to its absurdities.

Therefore, my response was to deduct it from whatever I had thought the waitstaff was worth that evening and think no more about it.

I don't own my own business, so I am not aware nor will judge the nuance of the "health insurance" fee on any SF bill; it would just really annoy me.

And I agree with you monitor that if a restaurant wants to protest and add this as a way to make it public your response seems completely reasonable when reviewing the bill.

And for those who commented on the TIPS acronym, I agree someone along the way just added some combinations together and made a fun little bar story. Personally in Europe I have experienced great service (and not so great), but the same goes for here in the US as well so to think that tipping actually drives better service, it is just not the case. And to top it off, when I go out with my friends in the industry, they still tip 20% for awful service and make excuses. That really annoys me 'cause I look like the one whose being unreasonable when I want to leave 10% or less.

That means he's making $8/hr CA minimum wage
In CA they don't do tipped wage and minimum wage is $8/hr from what I found online.
The minimum wage in San Francisco is $9.79.

In reading this thread, I have identified or remembered around five reasons:
1. Not to visit SF and CA to some degree.
2. Just how backwards this progressive city and state is.
3. What is in store for the rest of us as these practices are held up as an example of what works and how things should be.

to waiter - "sorry, i don't run the place, and you don't have to work here"

dingo, it helps to summarize with "we're screwed"

i would prefer 10% service charges at US hotels though, instead of tipping. while tipping is spreading, its still mainly a US thing.

I was under the impression TIPS was actually an acronym for:

To
Insure (although I think it should be ensure but hey, that screws it up right?)
Proper
Service



Good lord, that is completely not correct. See http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/tip.asp for details.

Which I find to be more lacking in the US then [sic] elsewhere.

It's obviously just my experience (YMMV), but I find service in the US to generally be more efficient and accurate than in places like Italy, France, Spain, Uruguay and Argentina. Some countries are much more efficient, such as Japan and Germany, though I've had bad experiences in each (just as I have in the US). I'm also sure that some of what I consider to be "inefficiency," such as not dropping a check until the patron specifically asks for it, may simply be a cultural norm in other countries.

I have no idea if my differing experiences can be attributed to a tipping culture but my sense, at least here in SF, is that wait staff in the better restaurants are very highly paid compared to the same jobs overseas and therefore attract longer-term and higher quality employees. The high level of pay can be attributed to the fact that the staff gets 15-20% of every check dropped on a table.

I was under the impression TIPS was actually an acronym for:

To
Insure (although I think it should be ensure but hey, that screws it up right?)
Proper
Service


HAH! what propaganda. thats extortion.

Personally in Europe I have experienced great service (and not so great), but the same goes for here in the US as well so to think that tipping actually drives better service, it is just not the case.
+1

In addition to expecting establishments to pay their workers wages, I also expect them to train and motivate their employees to give excellent service.

Maybe it is asking too much in general, but I feel that at least the top places here in Europe do so. And it is in their interest as well.

This is a scam, and I don't like it.

I wouldn't like it either but how does a disclosed-in-advance charge amount to a "scam?"

If you know that your meal will cost 17% more, then it's easy to calculate the true cost. Good policy? Perhaps not. But it doesn't sound like a "scam" to me.

Add me to the (growing) list of people who don't think service is generally better here in the US where tipping is rampant.

I think part of the problem is that it has gotten so common - even mandated in many cases - that many servers just assume up front that they're going to get the 15-20% regardless of how lousy the service is. Another poster even mentioned that his/her colleagues often give a full 20% even when they get bad service. With that mentality, how can one really believe a 15-20% tip is going to get you "better" service?

When comparing service in the US to service I've seen elsewhere (UK, France, Italy, South Korea, Singapore), I have found that the servers in those other locations do every bit as well on the whole as their US counteparts on the things that matter to me -- like explaining the options when I need help, getting my order right, etc. The main things I don't see in those other countries are things I don't want anyway -- like the fake friendly attitudes you get at some places of some servers who act like they want to become your best friend. If that's what tipping leads to, I can certainly do without it....

I think the main disconnect is that some here are viewing the warm fuzzies as "better service." I don't.

Add me to the (growing) list of people who don't think service is generally better here in the US where tipping is rampant.

I think part of the problem is that it has gotten so common - even mandated in many cases - that many servers just assume up front that they're going to get the 15-20% regardless of how lousy the service is.
<snip>
When comparing service in the US to service I've seen elsewhere (UK, France, Italy, South Korea, Singapore), I have found that the servers in those other locations do every bit as well on the whole as their US counteparts on the things that matter to me -- like explaining the options when I need help, getting my order right, etc.
I couldn't agree with you more. It seems that in the US (my native country and to which i return a couple of times each year), most servers I encounter now believe that they are entitled to somewhere between 15-20% of the bill just for showing up to work. Tipping has become less and less effective as an incentivising mechanism (if it ever was) and more of an entitlement.

I have no problem leaving a very generous tip if so deserved and a very miserly tip if so deserved, exactly as was done to me for the years in high school and college when I was a waiter.

This is going to morph into another one of those threads on tipping! Ok though.

I am not one who assumes that 15% is the starting point. I have been known to go as high as 40% for truly exceptional service on a multiple $100 tab and as low as 5% for terrible service. I expect my servers to make sure my order is received correctly both by me and the kitchen. That may not be fair, but I am not placing my order with the cook/chef so I have to hold the person accountable with whom I have the interaction. In the US, I expect all diners to get their food very close to the same time. I am one who will not eat if my wife has not received her meal and I view letting my food get cold sitting in front of me as an offense for which the server is responsible. I have had some great dinners at high end establishments during which my server (often the bartender as I like sitting at the bar) has 'bought' me a drink. I make sure to 1. Add that value back to the tab when calculating the tip; 2. Include about 50% of the cost of that drink as a tip; 3. Increase the % by a little more as a thank you for the gesture. In the end, it may end up being a not so free drink but I'm ok with that.

I accept a mandatory tip only in Europe, and I decide whether to add a little more or not based on the service which I expect to be quite different than that which I receive in the US...I don't hold them to what I hold servers in the US.

If I found a place that I enjoy going to that added a mandatory tip, I would cease enjoying going there. I think it is ridiculous.

I wouldn't like it either but how does a disclosed-in-advance charge amount to a "scam?"

If you know that your meal will cost 17% more, then it's easy to calculate the true cost. Good policy? Perhaps not. But it doesn't sound like a "scam" to me.

The scam referred to was not this charge, but the begging for tips in addition by the waiter. Please re-read my original post. Advance apologies if I did not make that clear enough for you but most posters on this thread seem to have gotten it.

Anyone begging for a tip is just liable to get no tip... but an explanation from me.

It is not for me to make up for their low wages or policies of their boss. To me, the tip is meant to reward service. I start at 15%... and will move it up or down based on service. I am not tough to please... but do expect my order as placed and my beverages to be refreshed often.

I do not care if you have the menu memorized... I do not care for conversation... just take my order efficiently and deliever it correctly.

since when do kitchen staff employees get tipped anyway?? that's absurd, they get paid a fair wage where servers get less than 1/2 of minimum wage.This is not true in all states. Some states, including California (where the OP's incident took place) do not allow tips to 'count' toward minimum wage.

From The California Department of Industrial Relations website (http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_minimumwage.htm):

Q. I work in a restaurant as a waitperson. Can my employer use my tips as a credit toward its obligation to pay me the minimum wage?

A. No. An employer may not use an employee's tips as a credit toward its obligation to pay the minimum wage.

If I found a place that I enjoy going to that added a mandatory tip, I would cease enjoying going there. I think it is ridiculous.

+1.

Tip is some sort of "hidden" and -sometimes- mandatory cost everywhere with little or no value for your money (YMMV).

As someone who usually starts the tip at 20%, it's usually a loss for the server when there's an imposed gratuity. :(

Most of the places I hang out in have no such nonsense. I take care of people who take care of me.

I know this is a US thing. I tip according to the custom of the country I'm in.

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since when do kitchen staff employees get tipped anyway?? that's absurd, they get paid a fair wage where servers get less than 1/2 of minimum wage.This is not true in all states. Some states, including California (where the OP's incident took place) do not allow tips to 'count' toward minimum wage.

From The California Department of Industrial Relations website (http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_minimumwage.htm):

Q. I work in a restaurant as a waitperson. Can my employer use my tips as a credit toward its obligation to pay me the minimum wage?

A. No. An employer may not use an employee's tips as a credit toward its obligation to pay the minimum wage.

thanks for posting this..... been wondering how tips worked with minimum wage situations

I'm usually in canada, but most of the time I go out there is fine print on the menu that says "15% charge will be added to groups of 6 or more". A few restaurants add this to all billls, but mostly it is reserved for large groups.

As long as the service is good I don't mind restaurants doing this, but i can see why people would object. Receiving a tip is not a right, it's a reward for a job well done.


Side note: We were in SF recently and noticed this health care "tax". Apparently you could support the wait staff and order bread, if you ordered bread (maybe before it was free?), you would be charged 50cents and that money would go to the health care insurance.

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thanks for posting this..... been wondering how tips worked with minimum wage situationsBe careful, though...as with many things in the USA, it varies state by state.

Some states (e.g., Minnesota, California) don't allow an employer to count tips toward minimum wage. In those states, a waitperson (or other 'tipped' employee) will earn full minimum wage plus tips.

However, some states allow a reduction in minimum wage for tipped employees, often with the caveat that the employer must cover the difference between the 'full' minimum wage and the 'tipped' minimum wage if the employee does not earn enough tips. For instance, Maine allows tipped employees to be paid one-half the 'full' minimum wage, but "if this rate plus tips does not average at least the minimum wage, the employer must pay the difference". Oklahoma's law is similar.

I hate places like this. Especially if the service is crap. You still end up paying the "service charge" Not only will i be pissed off with service charges, I will walk out without ordering if I know before I ordered, and if I only find out when the bill comes, I will not give a cent more than what is on the bill. I'm not responsible for paying for people's salary. If they don't feel like they get paid enough or they don't like their job, they can go get another one. Also, in many countries, the services are much much better, and they don't tip in those countries. Two places that come to mind - in my personal experience is Japan, and Spain. Why can people in those countries serve with such great services when they know they won't even get a tip? But in North America, they serve badly and they still expect to get a tip? There is something wrong with the attitude i think

That surcharge is ridiculous. If that crawled its way into my bill, I wouldn't tip at all. And no, you don't get tipped for just doing your job. I normally start around the 10-15% mark depending on the price range of the place (more at higher end places) and go up or down from there. I expect you to be knowledgeable about the menu, my order placed properly, my food delivered hot, my water glass topped up without my asking, and prompt service when I ask for it. It's not too much to ask.

If a service charge is added to my bill, there will be no tip.

A server in Vegas did the begging in April. He kept saying it is not a tip. The three of us in the room all three shook our heads no.

If a service charge is added to my bill, there will be no tip.

A server in Vegas did the begging in April. He kept saying it is not a tip. The three of us in the room all three shook our heads no.

Was this for room service? I would have called hotel management to complain.

Not in Vegas but I was actually at a hotel once that made you initial the tip line if you left anything as they wanted the servers to make sure the customers acknowledged they were giving extra as the service charge was included already. ^

If a service charge is added to my bill, there will be no tip.

A server in Vegas did the begging in April. He kept saying it is not a tip. The three of us in the room all three shook our heads no.

Hustling for tips in the USA has been taken to an art form.... :rolleyes:

It's obviously just my experience (YMMV), but I find service in the US to generally be more efficient and accurate than in places like Italy, France, Spain, Uruguay and Argentina.

Obvious and then not obvious .. It's just the thing you want. It's a cultural difference, I personally feel offended if somebody is efficient. If he brings me the bill without having asked for it. It cries "LEAVE we have other guests!" After paying the bill, I generally stay for about 30 minutes on my table. In the US I would never dare to..
It's just a feeling about time - in Europe, we have a lot of it, in the US or in NYC people just don't and ask for efficency - <but IMHO eating is not about efficency. I want t i m e on my own, digest, rest, stay, look, talk, having an other espresso, chat with the waiter, make jokes, talk about other customers, become a regular and beeing treated like this. The waiter brings me my favorite drink to finish and then again, I finally ask for the bill. 15 minutes passed. still no bill. I finally get it and leave. After 30 new minutes.
This is europe in a really good place with good waiters.

I know, my american friends would get bored by this. I LOVE it.

Thehealth insurance surcharge is vaguely related to an SF law that requires restaurants to provide insurance to employees. As part of a protest of this by some owners, some restaurants started putting a surcharge on the bill for what is allegedly their cost for insurance. Why this is any different than charging for butter is unclear.

Stop dining out. I'd simply go to the grocery store, order something from the deli and take it back to my hotel room. Simple solution. Yes, I'd prefer a nice dinner out , but, someone has to send them back a clear message that the customer is not the one to charge back their business expenses to.

Hustling for tips in the USA has been taken to an art form.... :rolleyes:

AGREED!!

So...I guess I missed it, then.

Is the service charge a tip or not and does it depend if it is a restaurant or a room service situation in a hotel?

I never tip room service waitstaff because of the service charge that I am not given the choice to handle on my own. I'll tip if I want to tip, dang it.

Isn't the important issue the total cost of the meal? If the 17% surcharge was offset by 17% cheaper food relative to comparable restaurants in SF, I wouldn't be too upset. On the other hand, if food and drinks were the same price as similar restaurants before the 17%, then I would be miffed. I guess the issue is whether the meal was a decent value no matter how the bill was divided up.

If the above was something I couldn't answer, I would be reluctant to return. This may be especially difficult for tourists to determine, and tourists are unlikely to return anyway. I bet this is more common in restaurants that attract tourists and are not too concerned about repeat business.

If the above was something I couldn't answer, I would be reluctant to return. This may be especially difficult for tourists to determine, and tourists are unlikely to return anyway. I bet this is more common in restaurants that attract tourists and are not too concerned about repeat business.

It probably is - and most tourists wouldn't do the research to find out what are some good locally recommended restaurants.

If a service charge is added to my bill, there will be no tip.

A server in Vegas did the begging in April. He kept saying it is not a tip. The three of us in the room all three shook our heads no.

When I have an "imposed gratuity", er a service charge, I will make a point to circle the line on the sales slip where the imposed gratuity is itemized. I then either write in a zero or put a dash across the line where it asks for an additional tip.

If I receive absolutely exceptional service, I might add an additional tip, but in most cases I make a point to circle the line with the imposed gratuity on the sales slip and leave nothing additional.

When it comes to tipping, I tip based on the service. I start at 15% and then go up or down based on the service. I've been known to leave no tip or a couple of pennies for crap service, but I've tipped as high as 40% for absolutely fantastic service.

If I'm familiar with a specific states wage laws, I will sometimes take that into account when tipping.

I also hate the tip jars that are popping up everywhere that never used to exist. It's often setup in a way where they want you to tip your change or toss a $1 bill in before you even receive what you ordered since most of these tip jars are at the cash register.

I will not leave a tip in one of these tip jars unless I am surprised with above and beyond service.