DiningBuzz! - certified organic - do you pay up?

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Is it worth your $$$ to pay more for certified organic foods...??

No pesticides used in produce, hormone/antibiotic free beef, I willingly pay for it. I can't realy claim anything in terms of "better" taste except for the organic beef that's grass-fed, that stuff is delicious (to me).

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just milk. nothing else. milk is purely a taste thing though.

Depends on country of origin, and how skeptical I am at the moment. Yes to *fresh* organic, no if it looks old or inferior. Organic dairy and meat--yes. "Natural", if all it lacks is certification, and the source is reliable, is often the best choice. Especially true for local produce/meat. No to farmed seafood.

Only for certain items that I cook simply so that the differences are readily apparent to the palate.

If you compare mass-produced eggs to "free-to-roam" eggs to "Organic, hand coddled, free-to-roam, blah blah" FRESH farm eggs, the differences are startling.

Same with organic whole chicken (or hen) versus mass-produced Foster Farms. Kosher chicken is a good substitute though.

Depends on the food item. Some foods carry the pesticides in them more than others. Peaches and strawberries have a really high pesticide load so it's worth it to me to by organic. I would not waste my money on an organic onion, otoh.

http://www.foodnews.org/fulllist

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Depends on country of origin, and how skeptical I am at the moment. Yes to *fresh* organic, no if it looks old or inferior. Organic dairy and meat--yes. "Natural", if all it lacks is certification, and the source is reliable, is often the best choice. Especially true for local produce/meat. No to farmed seafood.

Looks can be deceiving... Organic stuff will many times not look perfect but be far ahead in the nutritional content department when compared to the outside perfect Chernobyl Cherry.

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just milk. nothing else. milk is purely a taste thing though.

where do you stand on non-pasteurized dairy products...?

It depends on how much of a premium and what the product is. I have seen organic Gala apples cheaper than the regular Gala apples. When it comes to wine, biodynamic and organic wines in many cases do win against their rivals, but the price premium can be very high. In the case of wine, I think it has more to do with a reduction in yields than anything else.

Looks can be deceiving... Organic stuff will many times not look perfect but be far ahead in the nutritional content department when compared to the outside perfect Chernobyl Cherry.

I agree with that. I don't expect "perfection", but I trust my gut instinct. Kind of hard to explain, but if it puts me off, I won't buy it. On the other hand, if something is too perfect, I don't trust it either! :D

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where do you stand on non-pasteurized dairy products...?

I love non-pasteurized milk. When I visit family in Germany, its always high on my list of things to eat/drink. Unfortunately, it is impossible to find in most parts of the US.

where do you stand on non-pasteurized dairy products...?

Back in the 70's, I thought it was the way to go. Now with Mad Cow, hmmmm, not so sure. If I raised my own, sure I would use raw dairy products. I think we have lost a lot of our immunity with pasteurization. As for pasteurized juice--won't touch it--fresh or not at all.

My grasp of science would fill a thimble, but common sense tells me if something is subjected to heat or pressure, there are changes.

I hated when milk was homogenized, too. Took all the fun out of that first glass of milk with the cream on top!

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where do you stand on non-pasteurized dairy products...?

I love non-pasteurized milk. When I visit family in Germany, its always high on my list of things to eat/drink. Unfortunately, it is impossible to find in most parts of the US.

Is it even legal to sell non pasteurized milk & cheese in the USA...?

Is it even legal to sell non pasteurized milk & cheese in the USA...?


I had to look into this. Seems like it is in some states, and I love the concept of "cow shares". Looks current--

http://www.realmilk.com/happening.html

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Is it even legal to sell non pasteurized milk & cheese in the USA...?


I had to look into this. Seems like it is in some states, and I love the concept of "cow shares". Looks current--

http://www.realmilk.com/happening.html

thanks for the link...

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Is it worth your $$$ to pay more for certified organic foods...??

How do you feel about it?

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Is it worth your $$$ to pay more for certified organic foods...??

How do you feel about it?

I will pay more for organics... Gladly so.

It depends on the product.

It's also rather confusing over here in the UK, in that there's a number of different accreditations, particularly for animal products, and the Soil Association's organic mark is only one of them (and not necessarily what enables a supermarket to label it as organic).

Milk, I'll always get organic.

Meat, I don't buy that much, but tend to go for, at a minimum, 'Freedom Food' standard, particularly for beef and chicken (ditto for egg-based products). Pigs and sheep are harder to rear intensively anyway, so I'll usually base my decision on the quality of the end product - it's incredibly easy to tell the different between the kind of water-filled bacon that will shrink to half its size during cooking and leave a nasty residue, and the proper stuff.

Fresh fruit & veg, I'll judge based on the product and where I'm buying it from. If organic is better, I'll gladly stump up the extra cash.

UK: Organic food is just a tax on the gullible
09.aug.09
Sunday Times
Dominic Lawson

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/dominic_lawson/article6788644.ece
There are two reliable ways of telling if you have won an argument. The first is if your disputants switch from discussion of the facts to accusations about motives; the second, more obviously, is if they descend to mere abuse.


Alan Dangour, a nutritionist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, should therefore feel he has had an encouragingly uncomfortable week. He is the author of a peer-reviewed meta-study in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition that concluded, from 50 years of scientific evidence, that so-called "organic" food was no healthier than conventionally farmed products. By the end of last week Dangour felt as if he had been covered with the brown stuff the organic lobby holds most sacred. He revealed that he had received "hate mail" and was "taken aback" by the "abusive" language used.





Nutritional benefit seems an odd thing to dwell on, though. What about how the food tastes or what the impact of particular intensive farming practices is?

at least once a year, there is a new study reaffirming that organic food has no greater nutritional content than conventional. but honestly, these studies are akin to studies confirming there are no apples in oranges. the primary value in eating organic is avoiding pesticides and other chemicals.

sure, there are some people who insist that organic food is more nutritious. but then again, there are people who believe obama was born in kenya, that intelligent design is a valid theory, or that humans don't cause global warming.

at least once a year, there is a new study reaffirming that organic food has no greater nutritional content than conventional. but honestly, these studies are akin to studies confirming there are no apples in oranges. the primary value in eating organic is avoiding pesticides and other chemicals.

sure, there are some people who insist that organic food is more nutritious. but then again, there are people who believe obama was born in kenya, that intelligent design is a valid theory, or that humans don't cause global warming.
nail, you just got hit on the head. ^

Pigs and sheep are harder to rear intensively anyway,


...but that doesn't stop pigs in the US from being for the most part factory-farmed in conditions not far off from what they do for chickens.

...but that doesn't stop pigs in the US from being for the most part factory-farmed in conditions not far off from what they do for chickens.

Sow stalls? They've been made illegal here. It's a difficult choice to make, from a regulatory point of view. Few here disagree that it's the morally correct thing to do, but it's put British pig farmers at a huge disadvantage (and 2/3 of all pork consumed in the UK is reared in conditions that would be illegal here).

It also doesn't help that shoulder and belly cuts aren't at all popular here (back bacon is the most common form), so the value of these to farmers is minimal.

I suppose that one positive outcome of the various animal diseases that have hit the UK in the last couple of decades is that there is greater awareness of how intensive farming can exacerbate these problems - and some recent, high-profile publicity campaigns by celebrity chefs for better animal conditions. These have been incredibly successful, with sales of free-range chicken products rocketing - and some huge processed poultry and egg-based product concerns moving away from battery-farmed animals.

(A lot of it is education. A free range chicken is more expensive, of course, but if you know how to carve it properly, use all the meat, make stock from it, etc, you can get an awful lot more use and value for money from it.)

But again, it's often difficult to know what you're buying. I know that, for certain animals, being UK-reared is a guarantee of a certain standard of animal welfare, and that there are various marks that will demonstrate this (but the array of marks can get really confusing). Some distributors even deliberately try to fool you into thinking this, by labelling meat as 'UK packed', which, at a glance in a rushed whirl round the supermarket, would be enough.

Maybe part of it is just training yourself into how to recognise good quality meat. Maybe getting into the habit of using a proper butcher, or local farm shop (if available, and you have time). Maybe using an online shop which makes these clearly labelled (ocado.com is good for this). I don't know. But for me, it's not as simple as saying organic/non-organic, far from it.

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UK: Organic food is just a tax on the gullible
09.aug.09
Sunday Times
Dominic Lawson

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/dominic_lawson/article6788644.ece
There are two reliable ways of telling if you have won an argument. The first is if your disputants switch from discussion of the facts to accusations about motives; the second, more obviously, is if they descend to mere abuse.


Alan Dangour, a nutritionist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, should therefore feel he has had an encouragingly uncomfortable week. He is the author of a peer-reviewed meta-study in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition that concluded, from 50 years of scientific evidence, that so-called "organic" food was no healthier than conventionally farmed products. By the end of last week Dangour felt as if he had been covered with the brown stuff the organic lobby holds most sacred. He revealed that he had received "hate mail" and was "taken aback" by the "abusive" language used.





Thanks for posting this...

I generally don't seek out organic. I will buy it if it looks like it will be better tasting than the non-organic equivalent. However, I usually avoid buying certain organic products that often come with bugs: broccoli and any leafy vegetables.

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I generally don't seek out organic. I will buy it if it looks like it will be better tasting than the non-organic equivalent. However, I usually avoid buying certain organic products that often come with bugs: broccoli and any leafy vegetables.

bugs can be washed out.....

I have mixed feelings on the issue. A lot of me wants to believe it taste better and is better for me (avoids chemicals), but I also have a lot of trust in modern science and appreciate the benefits that provides. As a whole, I will pay more for a few items every grocery run, but don't go out of my way to purchase them

Back in the 70's, I thought it was the way to go. Now with Mad Cow, hmmmm, not so sure. If I raised my own, sure I would use raw dairy products. I think we have lost a lot of our immunity with pasteurization. !

Pasteurization doesn't kill the prions that are believed to cause BSE; only incineration will. Pasteurization does kill the tuberculosis bacterium and hoof-and-mouth (wrongfully called foot and mouth) virus among other things.

UK: Organic food is just a tax on the gullible
09.aug.09
Sunday Times
Dominic Lawson

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/dominic_lawson/article6788644.ece.





And the counter to that: (this si a snippet from the middle. much more in the link)

So let’s pull back the curtain, shall we?

Media Coverage: Though the study looked at only 8 different nutrients and concluded there was no evidence of a difference in nutrient quality between organically- and conventionally-produced foodstuffs, it went on to say that there were other reasons to buy organic food. Headline writers like tension so all the headlines were some variation on “organic foods not really better for you” or worse yet, “the organic foods hoax”.

What is the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine? The London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine is a respected college within the University of London, so all would seem to be on the up and up. But, this is the same school that published a hateful and not at all scientifically-rigorous study blaming fat people for global warming. I’d love to get into the problems with this study but that’s another post.

Who Funded the Study? The study was commissioned by the UK’s Food Standards Agency. The agency is an independent part of government set up by Parliament in response to food contamination issues and the resulting lack of consumer confidence. The FSA is supposed to serve consumers, and it does in many cases, but like our very own USDA and FDA, the agency can be influenced by the food industry. Their slogan says it all: “safer food, better business.” And a quick look at the profiles of FSA staffers reveals more than a few food industry folk.

http://civileats.com/2009/08/27/desperate-food-industry-tries-to-tar-michael-pollan-and-organic-produce/#more-4799

Ahhh, organic food. I love the smell of pseudo-science in the morning.....

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bugs can be washed out.....

Not out of broccoli. They can be washed out of most greens but my last head of organic romaine lettuce was crawling with what looked like thousands of small insects. I'd rather just buy the non-organic at that point.

at least once a year, there is a new study reaffirming that organic food has no greater nutritional content than conventional. but honestly, these studies are akin to studies confirming there are no apples in oranges. the primary value in eating organic is avoiding pesticides and other chemicals.

sure, there are some people who insist that organic food is more nutritious. but then again, there are people who believe obama was born in kenya, that intelligent design is a valid theory, or that humans don't cause global warming.

Penn & Teller recently did a show on Organic food on their Bullsh*t program.. blind taste tests (or mislabeled). They labeled half of a banana as organic and the other half as normal, people would claim pieces of the 'organic' banana tasted better.

For me its knowing that I can avoid pesticides etc. Also down here if you shop seasonal and organic you can feed 1 person veggies and fruit and milk for a week for about 20 aussie dollars. Which is great as I HATE buying pre packaged stuff and ending up throwing half of it out because I dont eat it before it goes frot.

There seems to be some misconceptions about what 'organic' is and isn't (it's not all about taste, for instance), and certainly the industry has helped with the confusion.

Here's an example of the difference between organic/non-organic beef. I've chopped it down a bit from a Time story (link below).

The Tale of Two Cattle
ORGANIC (1% of all cattle)

Diet: Grass
That's the normal diet for cattle. Their rumen, a digestive organ, can break down grasses we'd find inedible

Supplements: None
No drugs, no hormones, no additives. That's not ironclad for organic beef — some companies might use antimicrobials — but generally the animals are supplement-free

Environmental Impact: Living with the Land
Cattle move around the land, ensuring that the grass has time to recover between feedings. Grass doesn't need chemical fertilizer to grow and its presence helps prevent soil erosion. There's no need to clean up manure — with low cattle density, the waste just fertilizes the land

Human Impact: The Omega Effect
According to research from the University of California, grass-fed beef is higher in beta-carotene, vitamin E and omega-3 fatty acids than conventional beef

CONVENTIONAL (99% of all cattle)
The vast majority of all American cattle start off on open ranges, ...and are shifted after a few months to the tight quarters of an industrial feedlot, to be fattened up ...

Diet: Grass and corn
...at the feedlot, they're switched to a heavily corn-based diet, which makes them gain weight faster but also makes them get sick more easily

Supplements: Chemicals
In part to help them survive the crowded conditions of feedlots, where infections can spread fast, conventional cattle are given antibiotics in their feed, and sometimes growth hormones, bloods and fats

Environmental Impact: Waste
A 1,000-head feedlot produces up to 280 tons of manure a week ... All that feed corn requires millions of tons of fertilizer and, ultimately, a lot of petroleum

Human Impact: Fat Attack
Feeding corn to cattle ... doesn't just get them fatter faster; it also changes the quality of the beef. Corn ... can result in beef that is higher in fat — helping to fuel the obesity epidemic

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1917458-1,00.html

Why would I pay extra for something that, by the definition of "organic", contains Carbon? :confused:

:D

Not out of broccoli. They can be washed out of most greens but my last head of organic romaine lettuce was crawling with what looked like thousands of small insects. I'd rather just buy the non-organic at that point.

Lettuce is not hard to wash properly.... use a small amount of Bleach is a large container of water and after a few minutes all the bugs will go away.... rinse the lettuce in fresh water again (twice) and you will have amazing and organic lettuce..... its well worth it.

There seems to be some misconceptions about what 'organic' is and isn't (it's not all about taste, for instance), and certainly the industry has helped with the confusion.

Here's an example of the difference between organic/non-organic beef. I've chopped it down a bit from a Time story (link below).

The Tale of Two Cattle
ORGANIC (1% of all cattle)

Diet: Grass
That's the normal diet for cattle. Their rumen, a digestive organ, can break down grasses we'd find inedible

Supplements: None
No drugs, no hormones, no additives. That's not ironclad for organic beef — some companies might use antimicrobials — but generally the animals are supplement-free

Environmental Impact: Living with the Land
Cattle move around the land, ensuring that the grass has time to recover between feedings. Grass doesn't need chemical fertilizer to grow and its presence helps prevent soil erosion. There's no need to clean up manure — with low cattle density, the waste just fertilizes the land

Human Impact: The Omega Effect
According to research from the University of California, grass-fed beef is higher in beta-carotene, vitamin E and omega-3 fatty acids than conventional beef

CONVENTIONAL (99% of all cattle)
The vast majority of all American cattle start off on open ranges, ...and are shifted after a few months to the tight quarters of an industrial feedlot, to be fattened up ...

Diet: Grass and corn
...at the feedlot, they're switched to a heavily corn-based diet, which makes them gain weight faster but also makes them get sick more easily

Supplements: Chemicals
In part to help them survive the crowded conditions of feedlots, where infections can spread fast, conventional cattle are given antibiotics in their feed, and sometimes growth hormones, bloods and fats

Environmental Impact: Waste
A 1,000-head feedlot produces up to 280 tons of manure a week ... All that feed corn requires millions of tons of fertilizer and, ultimately, a lot of petroleum

Human Impact: Fat Attack
Feeding corn to cattle ... doesn't just get them fatter faster; it also changes the quality of the beef. Corn ... can result in beef that is higher in fat — helping to fuel the obesity epidemic

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1917458-1,00.html

The case for Beef is very clear cut... but this above post sums it all up quite nicely... ^ ^ ^

Not out of broccoli. They can be washed out of most greens but my last head of organic romaine lettuce was crawling with what looked like thousands of small insects. I'd rather just buy the non-organic at that point.

Just spray the vegetables with Raid and shake off dead insects. :D

The case for Beef is very clear cut... but this above post sums it all up quite nicely... ^ ^ ^

Gaucho, being a gaucho and all, what are your thoughts on the taste of corn fed beef? Does it have a distinct flavor for you?

Having mostly corn/grain fed beef up here, I find that grass-fed is distinct. Not necessarily better or worse, but different. Sometimes I like a nice fatty piece of corn-fed beef, and sometimes I like a leaner grass-fed cut.

Your thoughts?

Gaucho, being a gaucho and all, what are your thoughts on the taste of corn fed beef? Does it have a distinct flavor for you?

Having mostly corn/grain fed beef up here, I find that grass-fed is distinct. Not necessarily better or worse, but different. Sometimes I like a nice fatty piece of corn-fed beef, and sometimes I like a leaner grass-fed cut.

Your thoughts?

Not Gaucho, but I really like grass-fed beef for steaks, both for texture and flavor. I don't care for it for for burgers, as the texture is IMO off when ground, at least to the level of doneness that I like. It's likely a matter of being leaner - I don't care for ground buffalo, either.

For me its knowing that I can avoid pesticides etc. Also down here if you shop seasonal and organic you can feed 1 person veggies and fruit and milk for a week for about 20 aussie dollars. Which is great as I HATE buying pre packaged stuff and ending up throwing half of it out because I dont eat it before it goes frot.

Indeed, you avoid pesticides. You get rat droppings and bugs (live or dead) instead. And I suspect the key word in your money-saving argument is "seasonal" rather than "organic."

Time for me to stop commenting, as to continue would probably verge this thread over to Omni-land.

Lettuce is not hard to wash properly.... use a small amount of Bleach is a large container of water and after a few minutes all the bugs will go away.... rinse the lettuce in fresh water again (twice) and you will have amazing and organic lettuce..... its well worth it.

Well, I suspect the "amazing" part will depend entirely on the grower and not necessarily on the fact that the lettuce is organic. I've had some "amazing" non-organic fruits and veggies that required only a single wash rather than a bleach soak followed by two rinses. Not that I'm entirely opposed to organic, but I'm much more concerned about the flavor of the product and I have not found that organic necessarily means better flavor.

Indeed, you avoid pesticides. You get rat droppings and bugs (live or dead) instead. And I suspect the key word in your money-saving argument is "seasonal" rather than "organic."

Time for me to stop commenting, as to continue would probably verge this thread over to Omni-land.

Maybe seasonal is the key word. However to eat season in Tasmania its much easier to go organic. But then again I'm about to embark on a growing my own food adventure again....lets see if the carrots survive this year!

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the animal dropping argument is just so funny... :rolleyes:

Indeed, you avoid pesticides. You get rat droppings and bugs (live or dead) instead. And I suspect the key word in your money-saving argument is "seasonal" rather than "organic."

Time for me to stop commenting, as to continue would probably verge this thread over to Omni-land.

Hey Richard,

I am curious about this. And hope you feel you can have the discussion without it becoming a matter for Omni.

IMU, all is likely to have bugs and rat droppings simply because you can't expect to put it on a truck, take it to a warehouse, put it in stores and rats and bugs to never get into it along the way. It doesn't matter if the food is organic or not. You can find stories all over the place about rat dropping found in grocery store produce sections, restaurants, warehouses, etc. So why do you feel organic food is perhaps more susceptible to rat droppings? It seems to me we all have to wash our food carefully ...and while we can wash out bugs and droppings, we can't get pesticides out of those that have high loads of it.

How does your understanding vary from this?

Hey Richard,

I am curious about this. And hope you feel you can have the discussion without it becoming a matter for Omni.

IMU, all is likely to have bugs and rat droppings simply because you can't expect to put it on a truck, take it to a warehouse, put it in stores and rats and bugs to never get into it along the way. It doesn't matter if the food is organic or not. You can find stories all over the place about rat dropping found in grocery store produce sections, restaurants, warehouses, etc. So why do you feel organic food is perhaps more susceptible to rat droppings? It seems to me we all have to wash our food carefully ...and while we can wash out bugs and droppings, we can't get pesticides out of those that have high loads of it.

How does your understanding vary from this?

AMEN !!!!! ^

I love non-pasteurized milk. When I visit family in Germany, its always high on my list of things to eat/drink. Unfortunately, it is impossible to find in most parts of the US.

I know about the cheese fight between the US and France but that you even don't have non-pasteurized milk in US? I have never recognized this.. I will pay attention on this in 10 days when I'm back.

I know about the cheese fight between the US and France but that you even don't have non-pasteurized milk in US? I have never recognized this.. I will pay attention on this in 10 days when I'm back.

Must depends on where in the US. In my part of California, I've seen what claims to be raw unpasteurized milk available on the shelves of a few of the more expensive gourmet supermarkets around here (including Whole Foods, which is a national chain.)

Personally, it would be lost on me; I don't even dislike UHT over regular (and prefer the much longer life in the fridge.)

On the unpasteurized thing, it does seem to vary but what's allowed in each state. I can, for example, get unpasteurized orange juice in California, but cannot get it in many other states.

Depends on the food item. Some foods carry the pesticides in them more than others. Peaches and strawberries have a really high pesticide load so it's worth it to me to by organic. I would not waste my money on an organic onion, otoh.

http://www.foodnews.org/fulllist

Nice link, thanks!

Another reason to 'pay up' for organic is to support farmers and businesses that practicing organic (and presumably) more sustainable methods of farming.

If you believe buying organic supports small farmers (at least in the U.S.), you might want to read this:

http://www.slate.com/id/2138176/

As one small family farmer in Connecticut told me recently, "Almost all the organic food in this country comes out of California. And five or six big California farms dominate the whole industry." There's a widespread misperception in this country—one that organic growers, no matter how giant, happily encourage—that "organic" means "small family farmer." That hasn't been the case for years, certainly not since 1990, when the Department of Agriculture drew up its official guidelines for organic food.

Organic, or conventional is just like HFCS or HFCS-free.

There is no way to tell if some product is organic or not, just the same as there is no way to tell if HFCS has been used instead of "natural" sugar, by just analyzing the food item.

The difference is that products using organic procedures, or cane sugar, are more expensive and tend to be of higher quality.
As such, the label "organic" or "HFCS-free" can be taken as an indicator that we are buying better products, although that has nothing to do with the actual use of special procedures during production.

That's why there is now a "buy local" food movement in many cities. Real food grown by real people where you can visit the farm if you wish and see the conditions. Some really excellent quality food; not cheap, but not exorbinant, and not grown by giant corporations (not that it is bad, except they tend to optimize profit instead of food quality or sustainability). But the "buy local" movement can never be more than a niche in the food supply, so it is mainly a way for the elite to buy high-quality gourmet food and salve their consciences (me included).