JAL Mileage Bank - Is JAL racist? Please read my story....

Is Japan Airlines racist?
it was certainly my experience.
two months ago I flew Chicago - Bangkok on JAL and scored a first class seat.
I though it was really going to be something special. Boy, did I have a surprise coming. They pump up first class on their website as something really amazing, with so many little extra comforts from fresh cooked rice to your choice of bedding. Too bad I never got to experience much of any of it.
Checked in no problem at T5 Ohare and was escorted to their first class lounge.
its really just a more private subsection of their regular lounge. the food, the drinks and service are the same , just a little more privacy.
I boarded, got comfy in my seat and waited for the first class service to flow. Unfortunately there was not even a trickle.
no welcome, no offer of a drink, which should be customary, nothing. it seemed weird at the time and still does now remembering it.
oh well, I figured, maybe when we get airborne.
not a chance. it was stunning: I was absolutely ignored. and its not like it was full, maybe 5 total including me, in first class. its big and spacious so not easy to get lost in the crowd. but the stewardesses absolutely refused to acknowledge me or even look in my direction as they were bringing drinks, pajamas and snacks to the two women in front of me or the guy next to me. I started watching the Japanese guy next to me get served endlessly and the stewardess could not stop serving him. there was always one attendant sitting on the floor next to him while others constantly visited him with pjs, snacks, drinks, reading materials not to mention big smiles. he must have been the japanese Bill Gates or Mick Jagger with the treatment he was getting. But they were also constantly visiting the two older japanese women seated in front of me.
It was an hour and forty minutes into the flight before a stewardess even stopped by my seat to ask me if I need anything. I asked for a drink and she never came back. I finally got up to go get my own and then she got a little jumpy and said she would bring it to my seat. Inside I was reeling. the guy next to me had already received and changed into his pajamas, was enjoying his third drink , what looked like a nice meal and the company of a young eager flight attendant.
Was I invisible?, I kept asking myself. In their eyes, very much so.
I was really getting a bad feeling by now, total downer on the whole first class thing.
it plain just sucked. In all my 38 years of flying I've never been that poorly treated, even worse than on any Southwest flight, and we all know what that's like.
I finally asked for the head stewardess(she called herself the Purser) and she came by and just kind of looked at me. and so I told her, where's my service?, where's my food?, where's my PJs?
and can somebody show me how to work the bloody remote?
she was polite and only slightly helpful. as long as they're polite, I guess, anything goes with the gaijin.
Food finally arrives but the whole experience so far has left such a real bad taste in my mouth that the food just seems tasteless. Even after this conversation nothing improves, I have to ask the purser again and again for water,for a drink for my pjs, for a magazine. Most of the time I had get up go to their station and wait for her to notice me.
On JAL's website they extoll their sleeping service in first class: fresh sheets, and your choice of pillows. I slept that flight on no sheets and just that little pillow that's there when you sit down. I had to wear my jacket to stay warm.
and the next morning I watched them all busily serve breakfast to the passenger around me, really only three, and then disappear. still kind of groggy, I didn't realize we were due to land in an hour and when I got up to ask for some food she said too late. plane is landing soon, please return to your seat.
I was the only white guy up there, everybody else was Japanese. draw your own conclusions
the other legs of my trip weren't half as bad and the fourth leg, my trip home Narita-Chicago I was booked on AA first class. I'll take it anytime. they might not have all the frills and new furniture but at least they treat everybody the same. it does make a difference and it does make for a pleasant flight.
I tell you though, I was stunned and offended by the poor service I received on JAL, really it was no service at all. I've never experienced that level of discrimination before in my life.
It was a real eye opener , especially after what I had spent on tickets.
Is JAL racist? I'm not sure how else to describe the way I was treated.
My answer is yes, yes they are.
If you're thinking about flying with JAL and especially any of the higher classes, you may want to reconsider if you are not Japanese. for them, its a joy ride. For me, it sucked big time.
I would be very interested to hear if others have had a similar (bad) experience with JAL. please post.
thanks for reading.

I have flown JAL, but never in the front cabin. I found nothing wrong with their service. I have flown with a number of other Asian airlines in the front, and usually found their service far superior than their US counterparts. SQ and KE are my favorites.

Was there no call button on the remote? I'd have rung the bell a few minutes when no drinks have come. No need to get up again and again.

I'd certainly write a letter about your experience to the airline.

Is Japan Airlines racist?
it was certainly my experience.
two months ago I flew Chicago - Bangkok on JAL and scored a first class seat.
I though it was really going to be something special. Boy, did I have a surprise coming. They pump up first class on their website as something really amazing, with so many little extra comforts from fresh cooked rice to your choice of bedding. Too bad I never got to experience much of any of it.
Checked in no problem at T5 Ohare and was escorted to their first class lounge.
its really just a more private subsection of their regular lounge. the food, the drinks and service are the same , just a little more privacy.
I boarded, got comfy in my seat and waited for the first class service to flow. Unfortunately there was not even a trickle.
no welcome, no offer of a drink, which should be customary, nothing. it seemed weird at the time and still does now remembering it.
oh well, I figured, maybe when we get airborne.
not a chance. it was stunning: I was absolutely ignored. and its not like it was full, maybe 5 total including me, in first class. its big and spacious so not easy to get lost in the crowd. but the stewardesses absolutely refused to acknowledge me or even look in my direction as they were bringing drinks, pajamas and snacks to the two women in front of me or the guy next to me. I started watching the Japanese guy next to me get served endlessly and the stewardess could not stop serving him. there was always one attendant sitting on the floor next to him while others constantly visited him with pjs, snacks, drinks, reading materials not to mention big smiles. he must have been the japanese Bill Gates or Mick Jagger with the treatment he was getting. But they were also constantly visiting the two older japanese women seated in front of me.
It was an hour and forty minutes into the flight before a stewardess even stopped by my seat to ask me if I need anything. I asked for a drink and she never came back. I finally got up to go get my own and then she got a little jumpy and said she would bring it to my seat. Inside I was reeling. the guy next to me had already received and changed into his pajamas, was enjoying his third drink , what looked like a nice meal and the company of a young eager flight attendant.
Was I invisible?, I kept asking myself. In their eyes, very much so.
I was really getting a bad feeling by now, total downer on the whole first class thing.
it plain just sucked. In all my 38 years of lying I've never been that poorly treated, even worse than on any Southwest flight, and we all know what that's like.
I finally asked for the head stewardess(she called herself the Purser) and she came by and just kind of looked at me. and so I told her, where's my service?, where's my food?, where's my PJs?
and can somebody show me how to work the bloody remote?
she was polite and only slightly helpful. as long as they're polite, I guess, anything goes with the gaijin.
Food finally arrives but the whole experience so far has left such a real bad taste in my mouth that the food just seems tasteless. Even after this conversation nothing improves, I have to ask the purser again and again for water,for a drink for my pjs, for a magazine. Most of the time I had get up go to their station and wait for her to notice me.
On JAL's website they extoll their sleeping service in first class: fresh sheets, and your choice of pillows. I slept that flight on no sheets and just that little pillow that's there when you sit down. I had to wear my jacket to stay warm.
and the next morning I watched them all busily serve breakfast to the passenger around me, really only three, and then disappear. still kind of groggy, I didn't realize we were due to land in an hour and when I got up to ask for some food she said too late. plane is landing soon, please return to your seat.
I was the only white guy up there, everybody else was Japanese. draw your own conclusions
the other legs of my trip weren't half as bad and the fourth leg, my trip home Narita-Chicago I was booked on AA first class. I'll take it anytime. they might not have all the frills and new furniture but at least they treat everybody the same. it does make a difference and it does make for a pleasant flight.
I tell you though, I was stunned and offended by the poor service I received on JAL, really it was no service at all. I've never experienced that level of discrimination before in my life.
It was a real eye opener , especially after what I had spent on tickets.
Is JAL racist? I'm not sure how else to describe the way I was treated.
My answer is yes, yes they are.
If you're thinking about flying with JAL and especially any of the higher classes, you may want to reconsider if you are not Japanese. for them, its a joy ride. For me, it sucked big time.
I would be very interested to hear if others have had a similar (bad) experience with JAL. please post.
thanks for reading.

It sounds like you had an awful flight. I would definitely send a letter to JL.

For what it's worth, I've flown JL F a fair number of times over the past few years, and I've had nothing but perfect service. At times, I've felt the Japanese FAs actually went out of their way to make me, often the only caucasian, welcome.

Also, JL does not do a pre-departure drink while on the ground, even in F. That is standard, so don't let that part of the experience upset you.

Welcome to FlyerTalk pe3ep :),

I am moving this thread to its natural home within the FlyerTalk forum structure, the Japan Airlines forum. Thanks for your understanding.

Jouy31
TravelBuzz moderator

Just wondering - was it an award seat?

I ask as sometimes the flight attendants do know and the service and attitude sometimes equals the price of the taxes.

Your experience sounds quite familiar to me, even though I have only experineced this on ANA. Every time I fly with them in premium classes I get the full gaijin treatment.
Japanese pax around me are pampered whilst I am mainly ignored.
Consequence to me: I don't fly Japanese airlines anymore!

Talking to Japanese friends they thought it probably has something to do with poor English language skills of the crew members. I didn't buy that excuse though, as I have had numerous flights where I got treated badly compared to the Japanese pax.

I have never had a problem on any fare class with JAL.

It sounds like you had an awful flight. I would definitely send a letter to JL.

For what it's worth, I've flown JL F a fair number of times over the past few years, and I've had nothing but perfect service. At times, I've felt the Japanese FAs actually went out of their way to make me, often the only caucasian, welcome.

Also, JL does not do a pre-departure drink while on the ground, even in F. That is standard, so don't let that part of the experience upset you.

Caucasians -- more so European-Caucasian males -- on some Asian airlines are known for getting better service from flight crew than non-Asian and non-European Caucasian customers on those flights. Being a female and a non-Euro-Caucasian and/or non-Asian has often been an invitation to lesser service. Being non-Japanese has been an invitation to lesser service from Japanese airlines in some cases. Racism and sexism are rampant on some airlines still but there are also times when it's lack of confidence in language ability that results in poor service. It takes a keen eye to tell the difference in circumstances.

Sorry to hear about your bad experience!

fwiw, in the last couple of years I've traveled ORD-NRT-BKK on JAL in F and J on award tickets and never had anything less than excellent service. Lounge escorts, personal greeting from the purser (in F), personal greeting from my FA (in J), good food and wine, etc.

The last time I was was in F ORD-NRT I was the only W/M in the cabin and was treated just about the same as the big shots who seemed very familiar to the FA's. Maybe a little less personal conversation and chit chat, but I believe that's down to a language issue.

Seems like you may have had a really bad crew, or someone very, very important was on your flight and you suffered for it. In the future, keep in mind that the FA call button on JAL is really to call the FA's. It's not an emergency alert button that brings a scowling FA, like on AA or United! ;)

Hope your next flight works out a lot better!

Caucasians -- more so European-Caucasian males -- on some Asian airlines are known for getting better service from flight crew than non-Asian and non-European Caucasian customers on those flights. Being a female and a non-Euro-Caucasian and/or non-Asian has often been an invitation to lesser service. Being non-Japanese has been an invitation to lesser service from Japanese airlines in some cases. Racism and sexism are rampant on some airlines still but there are also times when it's lack of confidence in language ability that results in poor service. It takes a keen eye to tell the difference in circumstances.

I really do not believe that it is a language barrier on JAL....I hate to say it, but it is outright racism especially towards the non-caucasian group -- dark skinned people.

3 yrs ago, I flew JAL to HKG in J and my brother and I were completely ignored on the upper deck for the whole flight. I asked for an extra dessert after everything was done, and she just said no. It took forever to get our drinks and then some.

Since then, I have refused to fly JAL.

Sorry to hear about your experience.

I must say, I have had nothing but true excellent service on JAL on the 3 F flights I have taken with them (all awards). On all 3 flights I (one flight was me and a partner) were the only gaijin. Actually felt that I received better service in some ways than the japanese passengers. The FAs would spend much more time explaining (or trying to explain) the japanese food, drink and snack choices. In my opinion and based on my experience, the service standards on JAL are probably the highest in one world (perhaps only CX can compare, depending on the crew).

I've only had a couple opportunities to fly JAL in F, but on those occasions (on award tickets) the service was excellent. On my NRT-ORD flight I was the only person in F who was awake for most of the flight, and the FAs checked in frequently to see if there was anything I wanted.

As many of the posters have hinted, there are some people who have had rather bad experiences with JAL which could be either based around language barriers or ethnic/cultural issues.

The last time I flew Garuda Executive Class DPS - SYD - the business class cabin was almost full (pretty unusual) as it was the start of the Idul Futri or Eid Holiday.

We noticed that the Indonesian pax were getting much better service than us Aussies. So much so they got breakfast - and we had to ask for a coffee, and that was all we got.

Far from impressed - normally the service was outstanding.

Adam

Language barrier?
Puhleaze, the FAs in F speak better English than half of America.
Cultural issues? That's always the excuse trotted out for very bad behaviour.
I don't buy it. I was in F , and I should've been at least given the basic F treatment, regardless of any poor English skills or 'Cultural Differences'.
I'll just repeat my opinion of my experience: JAL is racist.

Language barrier?
Puhleaze, the FAs in F speak better English than half of America.


That is simply not accurate. While the purser or lead FA may speak good English, the majority of the crew on most of my flights spoke limited English, and they were hesitant to say much more than "you're welcome..."

I'll just repeat my opinion of my experience: JAL is racist.

That's your opinion; others have had a much different experience. Based on my personal experience, which is quite a bit more than one flight, I disagree.

You registered here one day ago, posted your rant and got it off your chest. Those who chose to reply for the most part expressed their sympathy and shared their experiences. Like it or not, not everyone is going to agree with you.

Now, do you have anything else to offer?

I haven't ever had a bad experience flying JAL in any class, and have found their 1st class service to be supreme. On my most recent trip LAX-->NRT, I was the only Caucasian in F and the only female as well. I was treated as well as the other male Japanese passengers, even better if I consider that the FA brought me a number of additional beauty items for my amenity bag that the male pax weren't offered. I could never get to the bottom of my drink either as the FA was there to top it off. I received the jammies to change into as soon as I set foot in the cabin.

I do speak and read Japanese and so can communicate well with the FAs, so perhaps it is more of a language barrier? I don't generally have the impression that JAL FAs have a great deal of English capability. On my most recent return flight, there was an Australian gentleman in the F cabin as well who was having a lot of difficulty communicating what he wanted. The FAs were really trying hard to get it but it took a bit of time to get his idea across.

I haven't ever encountered any behavior on a JAL flight that I would consider to be racist. If anything, I felt that i was doted upon a bit, even more so once I spoke to them in Japanese.

English is an issue with JAL FAs. Frankly, it's a problem in general with the Japanese education system which is taught for testing, not for real world proficiency.

Second thing, there is nothing wrong with hitting the call button. Western folk often expect service staff to come and ask if there is anything else to be done. In reality people just hit the call button or aggressively get the servers attention with a SUMIMASEN!

That is not to say that you should have to do that in F, JAL's service standard should be higher than that of a neighborhood pub.

Be that as it may, have you contacted JAL about this? I'd be interested in hearing the response. (Although they ask for people not to post responses. :D )

Be polite, but firm. Maybe edit your message down to something a bit more concise. Bullet point list your service issue list.

https://rgst.jal.co.jp/cgi-bin/jal/goiken/goiken.cgi?phase=1&e=1

I don't know if JAL is racist or not, but my experience with them is very variable service. Sometimes good, but sometimes horrible, even sitting on long haul F. Although I can speak fluently Japanese, I always speak in English with them, so the language issue is not the case. If it were, it has nothing to do with the Japanese educational system, it is a JAL problem. BTW according to my experience, they generally have a good English speaker on every flight.
My recommendation is to do a formal claim IN THE FLIGHT, you have just to ask for their "comment card" (they have this pre-printed forms where you can send a customer feedback) to JAL. The good thing about the card is that if you submit it to the Purser (identifying the poor service FA or crew), they have to work longer after the flight. There is a debrief process where the crew has to address why the claim was received and do all the Japanese procedure of understanding the failure and how to improve it (kaizen).
Finally they have to write a full report to their HQ and you will get an answer.

So if they treat you bad or under the advertised level of promised service...make them work extra (this also applies to ANA):D

Second thing, there is nothing wrong with hitting the call button. Western folk often expect service staff to come and ask if there is anything else to be done. In reality people just hit the call button or aggressively get the servers attention with a SUMIMASEN!

This is a broader cultural thing which extends to restaurants, stores and other service settings in Japan. You have to get someone's attention before they will help you. One Japanese acquaintance of mine believes this is because of the lack of tipping: people will help you if you actively put the burden on them, but they will not actively seek to serve you.

Anyway, this is a sad story.

I have noticed spottier service on both JAL and ANA recently, and I think it may have a lot to do with the demoralizing effects of their respective labor restructurings, which have cut people's pay and made them generally miserable, even if they don't always display it in the cabin.

OP states every passenger around him was treated well while he was ignored. A flight attendant with half a brain knows there's a problem when one person has to keep getting up to ask for service. Unless proved otherwise, it's clear he was being discriminated against, and I would classify his experience as being at the receiving end of racism. 'm a little surprised that this isn't obvious to more people here.

Language barrier?
Puhleaze, the FAs in F speak better English than half of America.


As some of the other posters have also said, not so great. I flew three JAL flights in May. The FAs were beyond timid to use English. One of them struggled horribly to thank us for flying JAL in English.


Cultural issues? That's always the excuse trotted out for very bad behaviour.
I don't buy it.


I didn't say it was justified nor did I say it was good behavior. There are cultural differences in service behaviors between Japanese culture and ??? (your culture).

I would include some varieties of racism within the milieu of Japanese cultural behaviors. For instance, I am treated well because I am caucasian. Friends who are Korean or Chinese have indicated that the Japanese seemed to look down on them and expect them to know all the niceties of Japanese culture (whereas they act surprised that I can use chopsticks).


I was in F , and I should've been at least given the basic F treatment, regardless of any poor English skills or 'Cultural Differences'.
I'll just repeat my opinion of my experience: JAL is racist.

Yeah, that's sad. Why not write a letter rather than just complain here?
Some Japanese people might be racist, even some who work for international companies, but JAL itself does not have racist policies and will definitely do something if your letter does not come off as too crazy.

Why not write a letter rather than just complain here?
Some Japanese people might be racist, even some who work for international companies, but JAL itself does not have racist policies and will definitely do something if your letter does not come off as too crazy.

Yeah--they'll write you an apology letter back. Not worth the time, in my opinion.

Yeah--they'll write you an apology letter back. Not worth the time, in my opinion.

I think if you write it in the letter might get put in the file of the FAs in F, if they could be identified. Although I really wouldn't be surprised to get some form letter response that might have some weak apology.

I'd be inclined to go with racism here, although if you asked the FAs, it was probably something caused by unidentifiable "cultural differences" caused by some crappy tarento and monkey foreigner on TV or some culture training given by some JAL bucho who could barely say アイスピックイングリシュ.

It's stuff like this why I just refuse to speak English to the FAs. Usually I don't speak a word of English to them. That way any cultural misunderstandings just don't happen.

OP states every passenger around him was treated well while he was ignored. A flight attendant with half a brain knows there's a problem when one person has to keep getting up to ask for service. Unless proved otherwise, it's clear he was being discriminated against, and I would classify his experience as being at the receiving end of racism. 'm a little surprised that this isn't obvious to more people here.

I guess Im just a little slower to jump on the racism bandwagon here. There could be a million different factors going on here - perhaps for example the OP gave the FAs the impression that he wanted to sleep and not be disturbed. I dont think that the experiences here alone, given the possible cultural and language issues highlighted, necessarily point to racism. And even if there was some form of discrimination occuring here, clearly that is something to put towards the crew (or the FAs serving F that flight) rather than to JAL as a whole.

Reading through this thread, post after post points to the exemplary service received on JAL. My own experience, as I mentioned, has been superb on 3 different F flights in the past year (and I speak no Japanese at all).

Maybe the OP had bad luck, maybe there was some kind of misunderstanding, maybe there is more to the story, maybe the FAs did not handle the situation correctly and maybe even there was some discrimination on the part of the FA but in no way can this isolated experience brand JAL as racist.

OP did not like the first class lounge, OP did not like JAL does not serve welcome drink, and then ..............

Also, OP said ORD to BKK.
How was the flight from NRT to BKK?
Is that bad, too.
Is there any difference of services.

How about the return flight if you have already returned?
You did not like the first class lounge at NRT?
How was the service BKK- NRT?
How was the service NRT-ORD?

From your total experiences of all four flights including the lounge staffs, you feel JAL is the racist?

There could be a million different factors going on here - perhaps for example the OP gave the FAs the impression that he wanted to sleep and not be disturbed.

I don't buy that for even a New York minute.

Yeah--they'll write you an apology letter back. Not worth the time, in my opinion.

I would disagree. While the OP may not see much beyond an apology, on the back side, most Airlines require pursers to have a spotless record for a certain number of months. A bad complaint can mean a de facto temporary demotion.

Sorry to hear the OP had a bad time, but I agree with Rochel and a few others. I find the service top notch, but I also admit to speaking Japanese. So as soon as I board the plane I just start speaking it instead of English. I also usually carry a small book in Japanese when I board. Usually that gets the FA's attention when they see the Caucasian reading the Japanese book.

I even sit in the bulkhead Economy row and have had no problem asking the Biz FA for a drink or some snacks when she was in my vicinity. Or one time I was met at the exit gate by staff when I disembarked because they wanted to check my allergies to make sure the return special meal was acceptable. They go above board.

But I do think a lot of it comes down to language. If I'm speaking English I get good to excellent service from the Japanese FA's, I get mediocre to very good service from the Chinese ones. Conversely if speak Japanese I get great to excellent service from the Japanese FA's.

I've had similar experiences on AA because they treat employees and relatives of employees like they belong in F and the paying (cash or miles) public like they are intruders in the employee lounge. Not saying that explains what happened here, but it's not always what it seems.

I guess Im just a little slower to jump on the racism bandwagon here. There could be a million different factors going on here - perhaps for example the OP gave the FAs the impression that he wanted to sleep and not be disturbed.

OK, but here is a guy (OP) sitting there, trying not to look as hacked off as he really is; he has to get up repeatedly to ask for stuff, and the FA's, fully grown adults that they are, working in an international customer facing role, for an organization belonging to a country that has politeness and service down to a fine art, and they are somehow experiencing a cultural disconnect? Some things are self-evident; this is one of them.

If the FA "had the impression that the OP wanted not to be disturbed" it has to be addressed immediately after closing the door by asking directly to the passenger if he wants to sleep or going with full service. Any top airline in long haul F would ask if they see you kind of tired.

I think the language barrier could be an issue and I have seen situations like this happen on US based carrier too. I could see a Japanese passenger on a US carrier thinking that the FA's were racist because the chose to limit there interactions based on the language barrier. Most US carriers do have a FA or two who speak the language of the country being traveled to but they may not be working the class that the passenger is in. I have seen FA's who only speak english working the F cabin on a flight to Asia (UA, AA).

I'm not saying this is right or acceptable, but I could see it being an issue. Maybe it gets "Lost in Translation".

Wow, this is a very odd experience.:confused:
It is definitely not the norm for them in F. I would be quite unhappy if that happened to me!

I am not Japanese, and neither is my wife, and we have always had excellent service in their F. Mind you, we've always been on revenue tickets and have never flown with them on award tickets.

You could always write to them and explain your concerns, and perhaps they will be gracious and offer you something?

I've had similar experiences on AA because they treat employees and relatives of employees like they belong in F and the paying (cash or miles) public like they are intruders in the employee lounge. Not saying that explains what happened here, but it's not always what it seems.


That is a brilliant explanation of the AA attitude in F!
"intruders in the employee lounge"!
I love it.

Your experience sounds quite familiar to me, even though I have only experineced this on ANA. Every time I fly with them in premium classes I get the full gaijin treatment.
Japanese pax around me are pampered whilst I am mainly ignored.
Consequence to me: I don't fly Japanese airlines anymore.

Too bad, b/c even Lufty flies Japanese FAs in their First Class cabins between Germany and Japan - I know, because I made the mistake of flying LH F from Germany to Japan as opposed to go for ANA. Hence if your theory is Japanese FA intentionally mistreats you, then your theory should also apply to any other carriers who use Japanese FAs as well.

Unless proved otherwise, it's clear he was being discriminated against, and I would classify his experience as being at the receiving end of racism. 'm a little surprised that this isn't obvious to more people here.

It isn't obvious because it's a one sided story. I wasn't there. Plus, this story seems so much out of ordinary that it does raise some questions.

It isn't obvious because it's a one sided story. I wasn't there. Plus, this story seems so much out of ordinary that it does raise some questions.

I think OP and Mr. PhlyingRPh live in the same EARTH by accident as the location so they might have the same standard.

OK, but here is a guy (OP) sitting there, trying not to look as hacked off as he really is; he has to get up repeatedly to ask for stuff, and the FA's, fully grown adults that they are, working in an international customer facing role, for an organization belonging to a country that has politeness and service down to a fine art, and they are somehow experiencing a cultural disconnect? Some things are self-evident; this is one of them.

Self evident? Ultimately, we have the OP posting his version of events in one of his first ever FT posts versus 3 pages of gaijin praising the service standards of JAL in F (minus a few comments on language barriers). This is very far self evident in my opinion.

I've never traveled in F but I have flown in C a number of times and this story is so far outside the norm of the quality of the service in C or Y that I've experienced that I just don't believe it happened as the OP is telling it.

My husband and I (both caucasian) have flown JAL many times, in all three classes, and have always received very good service. F from HNL to NRT a few months back was wonderful.

Self evident? Ultimately, we have the OP posting his version of events in one of his first ever FT posts versus 3 pages of gaijin praising the service standards of JAL in F (minus a few comments on language barriers). This is very far self evident in my opinion.

In my opinion, JAL FA can be slightly more stand off ish at times compared to say ANA. This sentiment has been shared by many other people on FT. However, that's certainly not the same level of quasi discrimination that the OP suggests - I have a little bit of difficulty buying the story at face value. My mother is a 2nd generation Japanese and she considers herself a gaijin and she has always been treated very well when flying JAL. She remarked that on a NRT-JFK evening flight which she flew a F class award by herself, where the same flight would then do JFK-GRU, the FA came by and chatted with her and asked whether she was heading to Brazil (obviously because the FA figured out there is a lot of gaijin like Japanese 2nd and 3rd generation in Brazil, the largest concentration outside of Japan). I mean, if they systematically discriminate against gaijins, it would seem the last thing they would do is come by and chat unless they are genuinely interested.

Japanese are known to be fairly "exclusive" at times but their gracious hospitality towards guests is also well known. You can possibly argue that Japanese are racist towards gaijing living in Japan, that wouldn't be a hard argument to make but as far as airline treatment of pax is concerned, it would definitely be quite unheard of, the type of treatment received by the OP. Then again, I wasn't there. In my experience, I have never experienced anything but very good to excellent service on JAL, while excellent to outstanding on ANA and I am a gaijing too.

I saw this yesterday and wasn't going to bother posting, but I find the posts questioning the op's veracity a bit untoward. I'm a gaijin--a dark skinned gaijin. I've flown JAL a few times--maybe 12 or 15 flights total in J and F over the past 5 years. On every flight, it's seemed obvious that Japanese passengers received more attentive service than I did. The worst was a flight in first class from LAX to NRT. It was really difficult to get the FA's attention for simple things like a refill of water. I wrote it off to being on an award ticket and discomfort with language. Generally, I'm not particularly bothered by less attentive service. I don't necessarily want or need a huge amount of attention, but that flight was particularly egregious. I took the time to write a letter complaining, something I've very rarely done.

Too bad, b/c even Lufty flies Japanese FAs in their First Class cabins between Germany and Japan - I know, because I made the mistake of flying LH F from Germany to Japan as opposed to go for ANA. Hence if your theory is Japanese FA intentionally mistreats you, then your theory should also apply to any other carriers who use Japanese FAs as well.

Lufthansa doesn't just have Japanese FA in their First cabin but in all cabins to Japan. Let's settle that you can fly all the JAL or NH you want, and I won't.
I now travel either on LH,BA,SQ or CX.

I saw this yesterday and wasn't going to bother posting, but I find the posts questioning the op's veracity a bit untoward.

Who is questioning the veracity of the OP's story? :confused:

I'm a gaijin--a dark skinned gaijin. I've flown JAL a few times--maybe 12 or 15 flights total in J and F over the past 5 years. On every flight, it's seemed obvious that Japanese passengers received more attentive service than I did.

I am sorry, when I sit in a J or F cabin, I certainly do not actively survey the cabin or the FAs and try to compare their level of attentiveness towards other pax vs. me. That just seems weird. Why do you care so much about how others are treated vs. you? :confused: Was there something negative about the service you received in particular that prompted you to notice your different treatment vs. other pax?

The worst was a flight in first class from LAX to NRT. It was really difficult to get the FA's attention for simple things like a refill of water. I wrote it off to being on an award ticket and discomfort with language.

Did you use the FA call button or was that malfunctioning? Or did they ignore your call button entirely? Do you think that lesser service is due to somekind of racism or could it be simply the FA was not as professional as some other peers?

Generally, I'm not particularly bothered by less attentive service. I don't necessarily want or need a huge amount of attention, but that flight was particularly egregious. I took the time to write a letter complaining, something I've very rarely done.

So you are saying it's an one off incident. Then, doesn't that disproves somekind of systematic ill treatement of gaijins in general on JAL since you weren't bothered enough to complain in your 11 to 14 other JAL flights? How does that support the OP's one off incident then since he/she appeared to be "mis-treated" on a single flight as well and that subsequents flights weren't as bad. If so, does everytime a UA or AA or DL flight has a less than attentive FA makes you think about racism too due to your skin tone?

Lufthansa doesn't just have Japanese FA in their First cabin but in all cabins to Japan. Let's settle that you can fly all the JAL or NH you want, and I won't.
I now travel either on LH,BA,SQ or CX.

I think Korean carriers are the most "exclusive" of non-Korean premium passengers, maybe then followed by Japanese.

The Chaebol and Keiretsu execs are, however, an extremely loyal customer group who clock up huge mileage and normally also have a co-branded airline credit card. So its quite obvious they get preferential treatment over the odd non-national.

That said, I personally have never had a bad experience with JAL. It used to be my main airline in the 1990s and I still value them highly. Probably one of the reasons I majored in Japanese ;)

Who is questioning the veracity of the OP's story? :confused: ?
You can read the posts before mine and come to your own conclusion but when someone writes they don't believe the events happened as set out by the OP, that's questioning veracity.



I am sorry, when I sit in a J or F cabin, I certainly do not actively survey the cabin or the FAs and try to compare their level of attentiveness towards other pax vs. me. That just seems weird. Why do you care so much about how others are treated vs. you? :confused: Was there something negative about the service you received in particular that prompted you to notice your different treatment vs. other pax?

I don't think I wrote that I surveyed anyone. Rather, I wrote that it was obvious to me that Japanese passengers received better treatment. On any flight, I can see the passengers around me. I can see whom the FAs visit. I can see whom they don't. And I know how the FAs treat me. Do I care? Only when I don't get what I want with reasonable promptness. That's what led to my letter in the one incident.



Did you use the FA call button? ?

Yes.

Do you think that lesser service is due to somekind of racism or could it be simply the FA was not as professional as some other peers? ?

I don't know. As I wrote in my post, I have put this down to discomfort with language and, in the one instance, travelling on an award ticket. I would not, and did not, accuse JAL as a whole of racism. I shared my admittedly anecdotal information about differing treatment of passengers. If I believed the entire airline were racist, I wouldn't continue to fly it.




So you are saying it's an one off incident. Then, doesn't that disproves somekind of systematic ill treatement of gaijins in general on JAL since you weren't bothered enough to complain in your 11 to 14 other JAL flights? How does that support the OP's one off incident then since he/she appeared to be "mis-treated" on a single flight as well and that subsequents flights weren't as bad. If so, does everytime a UA or AA or DL flight has a less than attentive FA makes you think about racism too due to your skin tone?

If you read my post, you'll see I did not describe a single incident. I described a pattern with one particularly bad flight involved. I'm not trying to support a conclusion of racism, and the word racism doesn't appear in my post. I can imagine other reasons for the differing treatment including language, as I mentioned above, or a sense that western passengers are less demanding or less comfortable with overly solicitous service. My objection was to people, in my reading, attacking the OP's description of events as inaccurate because they didn't like his/her conclusion of racism.

I spend 80% of my time in Japan and 20% in the US. I am an American married to a Japanese. First, I can't comment if the original poster experienced discrimination or incompetent service. But both are wrong for premium on a Japanese airline.

First an aside... how was the OP dressed? Japanese have certain stereotypes about neatness and Americans and other Westerners. Japanese, especially people in Tokyo, even wear ties and sport jackets on the weekends. If OP was in a premium cabin in jeans, t-shirt and had bare feet, I can see FA's feeling not so good about it.

Now for the more macro situation. Discrimination is legal in Japan. Yes, it's unconstitutional but not illegal. There are no laws against it. In housing, health clubs, restaurants, hotels, they can just shake their head no if you are a foreigner and THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. A person who meticulously blogs about this is Arudo Debito.

Japanese often will not swim in the same pool or hot spring as Western people. I was prohibited from joining a health club because I am a foreigner on the outskirts of Kobe and they even handed me a letter in both languages explaining that I couldn't join because I was a foreignger.

Being married to a Japanese woman, I have seen with her and her peers significant negative attitudes towards other Asians. Older Japanese often feel that "gaijin" are "dirty" (hence not wanting to swim with them).

My wife can not take my Western name in Japan without having her family history record obliterated. And without her family history she may not get a job as they check to see if you are the "right type of person."

This gets into the secret caste system (look up burakumin on the internet) where people whose families came from butchers or leather workers were considered unclean. Their descendents today still are encouraged to live in certain neighborhoods in Osaka and Kobe (but are encouraged to assimilate in Tokyo)- this is a topic that is NEVER brought up in pubic with Japanese people although the New York Times wrote about it recently.

OK - back to the OP. You may have or have not been the recipient of discrimination. My point is that it is endemic to the culture but international staff of JAL and ANA should have it trained out of them.

What to do? In the future, keep in mind the worst penalty for all Japanese is public embarrassment. CALL THEM ON IT WHILE IT IS HAPPENING- loud enough so the next person can hear but in a nice voice.

"Excuse me- I am wondering if there is a reason why I do not seem to be getting the service that others are getting on this flight. I realize I don't speak Japanese but is this because I am a foreign customer? They will turn 15 shades of color, walk away and then the most senior person will come back and start taking care of you I suspect.

I was on ANA C full fare one way once- bought through United's site as it was $2000 cheaper-although it was still a $4000 one way ticket to NY. I was told -not asked that the Japanese meal wouldn't be available to me and had to have a Western meal. I was the only one told this. So I said, "is that because I am the United customer today?" She turned fifteen shades of color left in a huff and then a senior person said I could have whatever meal I want and the crew would have to change their selections but not me as a customer.......damn right......

fly both Japanese airlines a lot- overall it is a privilege compared to US airlines. Remember being a FA is the highest honor a Japanese woman can have-it is more respected in society than her being a doctor (literally). The total opposite to the role in the US. For the most part, Japanese airlines are amazing. But, sometimes the culture intrudes..........Your weapon is to not lose your cool but let them know they are putting themselves in an "embarrassing situaiton" that hurts how others perceive their professionalism.

I'm surprised that so many people have said JL (and other Japanese airlines) FAs generally have poor English skills. I would never have thought that.

As I don't know Japanese, I think I would avoid those carriers unless they were the only option. It's just difficult to communicate anything, whether its service in the air or on the ground.

fly both Japanese airlines a lot- overall it is a privilege compared to US airlines. Remember being a FA is the highest honor a Japanese woman can have-it is more respected in society than her being a doctor (literally). The total opposite to the role in the US. For the most part, Japanese airlines are amazing. But, sometimes the culture intrudes..........Your weapon is to not lose your cool but let them know they are putting themselves in an "embarrassing situaiton" that hurts how others perceive their professionalism.

Interesting advice. Thanks for sharing your experience in Japan.

.

Great Post - thanks for taking your time to write about your experiences in Japan.

What to do? In the future, keep in mind the worst penalty for all Japanese is public embarrassment. CALL THEM ON IT WHILE IT IS HAPPENING- loud enough so the next person can hear but in a nice voice.

"Excuse me- I am wondering if there is a reason why I do not seem to be getting the service that others are getting on this flight. I realize I don't speak Japanese but is this because I am a foreign customer? They will turn 15 shades of color, walk away and then the most senior person will come back and start taking care of you I suspect.

Really interesting post peloton. ^

I would have thought that the OP having to get up a couple of times to ask for things would have resulted in significant embarrassment and shame for the FA's.

I would not call Japan specifically discrimininating, all of Asia loves hierarchy and a divide between insiders and outsiders.

It doesn't matter if you happen to be in China, Indonesia, Japan or Thailand or on the respective airlines, the philosophy remains the same. Better to become one of the insiders then. ;)

Japanese often will not swim in the same pool or hot spring as Western people.

Oh how I wish this were true! Clear out the facility, have it to myself...

What to do? In the future, keep in mind the worst penalty for all Japanese is public embarrassment. CALL THEM ON IT WHILE IT IS HAPPENING- loud enough so the next person can hear but in a nice voice.

"Excuse me- I am wondering if there is a reason why I do not seem to be getting the service that others are getting on this flight. I realize I don't speak Japanese but is this because I am a foreign customer? They will turn 15 shades of color, walk away and then the most senior person will come back and start taking care of you I suspect.



I think this is awesome advice. When I was in Japan in May, we used this technique a number of times. Since the Japanese consider being shamed the worst possible experience, the key is to ensure that you make a scene by complaining.

Non-refundable shinkansen ticket? Complain loud enough that you didn't understand because of language so that regular customers can hear it and watch the cookie crumble.

Non-refundable shinkansen ticket? Complain loud enough that you didn't understand because of language so that regular customers can hear it and watch the cookie crumble.
This is exactly with this kind of attitude that some Japanese will keep seeing foreigners as a nuisance. If you booked not refundable Shinkansen tickets you have nobody to blame for but yourself. Shame on you for this kind of attitude :td:

I think this is awesome advice. When I was in Japan in May, we used this technique a number of times. Since the Japanese consider being shamed the worst possible experience, the key is to ensure that you make a scene by complaining.

Non-refundable shinkansen ticket? Complain loud enough that you didn't understand because of language so that regular customers can hear it and watch the cookie crumble.

Creating a scene and causing disharmony in Japan is exactly the type of thing that perpetuates the stereotype of the un-refined, loud, obnoxious ugly-gaijin. The shame is on the gaijin in this type of situation.:td:

Remember being a FA is the highest honor a Japanese woman can have-it is more respected in society than her being a doctor (literally).

You've got to be kidding?!

I certainly have never come across this declaration from any Japanese friends, news stories or cultural studies during my years living there. I agree that being a FA is not considered a bad job in Japan - as well as many parts of Asia - and perhaps even maintains some level of glamour. But while young girls may fantasize about being a FA one day, I'd highly doubt that the typical parents would, upon learning their teenage daughter would like to become a doctor when she grows up, disapprove and try to talk her into becoming a FA instead...

You've got to be kidding?!

I certainly have never come across this declaration from any Japanese friends, news stories or cultural studies during my years living there. I'd be interested to understand how you came to this preposterous conclusion.

I wouldn't say it's the highest honor but it's a job many girls want. There was an article in the New York Times recently saying that being a hostess is in the top 15 of jobs girls want so I'd guess flight attendant is in the top 10. What a good way to meet a salaryman with a good job and become a housewife (definitely applies if he is in first or business class)!

I don't advocate speaking out when you're not following the rules but, if you're being treated differently, it's totally acceptable. I once was at a Jusco in Itami and I had bought some groceries. It was in the evening, so fairly busy. The cashier doesn't say a word, just points at the price when everything is done. I told him I didn't have my contacts in so I couldn't read. The cashier points at the price again. I just walked over to the customer service desk and complained about that (I didn't buy the food or anything).

There are no laws against it. In housing, health clubs, restaurants, hotels, they can just shake their head no if you are a foreigner and THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.
Technically hotels can't discriminate as it is against the law. The hard part is finding someone to enforce it or suing them yourself. I also believe doctors have similar restrictions.

You've got to be kidding?!

I certainly have never come across this declaration from any Japanese friends, news stories or cultural studies during my years living there. I agree that being a FA is not considered a bad job in Japan - as well as many parts of Asia - and perhaps even maintain some level of glamour. But while young girls may fantasize about being a FA one day, I'd highly doubt that the typical parents would, upon learning their teenage daughter would like to become a doctor when she grows up, disapprove and try to talk her into becoming a FA instead...

Well, in peloton's Japan, a foreigner will clear out a pool or onsen, so it must a be different place from the one you and I are familiar with.

Back to the JL question, personally, I have not had anything as egregious as what happened to the OP, but I do think that JL FAs tend to be more "hands off" and not as forthcoming with things. I did notice that they would serve Japanese first in some instances (with, for example, the sleep suits, or the drinks) but they would eventually get to me. Not a big deal, but definitely noticeable. I can see how somebody may be miffed at this and view it as racist.

Their English generally stinks also, except perhaps for one of them out of the whole contingent, so I do think there is an element of scaredy-cat in their behavior, not necessarily racism.

I wouldn't say it's the highest honor but it's a job many girls want. There was an article in the New York Times recently saying that being a hostess is in the top 15 of jobs girls want so I'd guess flight attendant is in the top 10. What a good way to meet a salaryman with a good job and become a housewife (definitely applies if he is in first or business class)!


Yes, many girls the world over, not just in Japan, dream about being a FA, but there is a big difference between a young girl's (possibly passing) fantasy and the most respected job in society for females.

BTW, I read the same interesting NYT article, whose main point is that the attractiveness of a hostess job currently is due to the financial crisis and lack of other gainful employment opportunities in general.

As for the appeal of a FA's job in finding a rich husband, well, that is a very retro and age-old appeal, isn't it? (I know someone who found his FA wife on China Airlines while he was flying F for work and being served by her, back in the late 70's!) I think even to date, there is some element of this in the glamour of the job, especially for Asian carriers such as SQ. But, again, I wouldn't go as far as saying this makes the job the most respected in Japan, even as tradition-bound as the country still is.

You've got to be kidding?!

I certainly have never come across this declaration from any Japanese friends, news stories or cultural studies during my years living there. I agree that being a FA is not considered a bad job in Japan - as well as many parts of Asia - and perhaps even maintains some level of glamour. But while young girls may fantasize about being a FA one day, I'd highly doubt that the typical parents would, upon learning their teenage daughter would like to become a doctor when she grows up, disapprove and try to talk her into becoming a FA instead...

Totally agree. I have been living in Tokyo for 10 years and can assure you that every parent will go for the doctor career over the FA.

Also discrimination might exist but not at the degree mentioned, I have a pretty normal life in Japan (started as graduate student, now high management exec). Usually what Japanese dislike (we see it as discrimination) is avoid trouble, i.e. real estate agents say that gaijins tend to be noisier, do not follow the recycle rules, make parties, etc. Some foreigners will rent a property intended for 4 people to live but actually you see 10 people living there (this is a no-no with Japanese).They don't need your business, so they just will tell you that certain properties are Japanese only.

If you follow the rules, life is ok in Japan.

Going back to the JL issue, agree with making a scene onboard and make them understand (and let other passengers know) that the FA is not doing her job properly. Under Japanese codes, other passengers will feel uncomfortable enjoying FC service if the "gaijin" passenger is not treated well. So the FA has to correct the mistake, otherwise might receive a massive chain reaction claim.

This is exactly with this kind of attitude that some Japanese will keep seeing foreigners as a nuisance. If you booked not refundable Shinkansen tickets you have nobody to blame for but yourself. Shame on you for this kind of attitude :td:

Wrong, in kansai, Japanese people do this all the time. And I didn't book it. My brother who speaks zero japanese bought it at the train station because the machine was kind of confusing. (remember this is hyogo ken, not foreigner friendly tokyo).

Creating a scene and causing disharmony in Japan is exactly the type of thing that perpetuates the stereotype of the un-refined, loud, obnoxious ugly-gaijin. The shame is on the gaijin in this type of situation.:td:

funny. my japanese friend was the one who escalated it. You must be a foreigner?

Oh how I wish this were true! Clear out the facility, have it to myself...

You wish... ;) More likely than not, you will be told that you can't use the facility at all.

funny. my japanese friend was the one who escalated it. You must be a foreigner?

Well, I don't know your Japanese friend, and I don't know enough about the circumstance that caused him or her to throw a tantrum - surely not a typical or acceptable behavior by Japanese standards - at that time and place. In any case, I don't understand why you said that I must be a foreigner. It is not about me, but about the behavior of your, hmmm, friend.

I agree that being a FA is not considered a bad job in Japan - as well as many parts of Asia - and perhaps even maintains some level of glamour. But while young girls may fantasize about being a FA one day, I'd highly doubt that the typical parents would, upon learning their teenage daughter would like to become a doctor when she grows up, disapprove and try to talk her into becoming a FA instead...

I guess you don't understand the Japanese culture well enough then. Many young women are not expected to hold very meanigful jobs until their marriage. Being a doctor is mostly a man's job, as such not many parents would actually aspire their daughters growing up to be doctors. That said, there is no shortage of female doctors opening clinic or making house calls, though, their career choice may or may not create some tension with their family ('s expectations) or even disapproved by peers. After all, many young women are expected to quit their job once they got married, at least those girls who are considered upright and "good" as opposed those young women who have 5 different colors in their hair, doesn't dress properly and etc. In Japan, occupation still has a very strong gender bias. FA is still primarily a female job and among the career choices for women, it is one of the more glamorous job and also pays very well, even relative to jobs held by men. The salaries of female FA could be higher than the average earning of a man, which is actually difficult to accomplish considering most of the high paying jobs are held by men.

Technically hotels can't discriminate as it is against the law. The hard part is finding someone to enforce it or suing them yourself. I also believe doctors have similar restrictions.

While there is no national laws against discrimination, some Japanese metropolis such as Tokyo and Osaka do have some local anti-discrimination laws re: contract, employement and etc., not just re: nationality/race, on other things as well. City governments of major cities in Asia have quite a bit of say in how they manage things, unlike Europe and North America. The rule regarding foreigner is not so much a question of legal or not vs. how companies can get away with it and everyone is doing it. Therefore, the overall protection and recourse for foreigner is still fairly weak but in big cities, you do have more recourse if you want to pursue it however.

Totally agree. I have been living in Tokyo for 10 years and can assure you that every parent will go for the doctor career over the FA.

You realize Japan doesn't just consist of Tokyo just as New York is not representative of the United States, right?


Going back to the JL issue, agree with making a scene onboard and make them understand (and let other passengers know) that the FA is not doing her job properly. Under Japanese codes, other passengers will feel uncomfortable enjoying FC service if the "gaijin" passenger is not treated well. So the FA has to correct the mistake, otherwise might receive a massive chain reaction claim.

If it has to come down to that, which is unfortunate, you must do what you need to do. My sister flew ANA full fare C class between NRT-TPE a few months ago, given that ANA and JAL publishes their menu in advance, she knew she wanted the Western meal choice as opposed to the Japanese meal. She informed the FA upon entering the cabin. When they started serving meals, some white caucassian gaijing man started to make noise and the FA came over to her and asked her a favor. "There is a passenger who refuses to eat Japanese meal, he said he can only eat the Western menu. Can you please do us a favor and take the Japaense meal in exchange for your Western selection." For which, she replied yes and happy to help, even though she strongly preferred the Western selection. Subsequently, the FA came back over and over to apologize and made sure she was alright. My sister wasn't too happy about not getting her preferred meal choice and I supppose she could have refused the FA's request for help. The FA pleaded with her perhaps because she is a woman whereas the business class cabin is virtually all men. Just beware though, your "complaint" may come at the expense of another pax's comfort.

You wish... ;) More likely than not, you will be told that you can't use the facility at all.

Meaning that more likely than not I would be told that I can't use the facility, or of the subset of facilities that don't accept foreigners, I would be told I can't use it as opposed to using it and clearing out the facility?

I think this is awesome advice. When I was in Japan in May, we used this technique a number of times. Since the Japanese consider being shamed the worst possible experience, the key is to ensure that you make a scene by complaining.

Non-refundable shinkansen ticket? Complain loud enough that you didn't understand because of language so that regular customers can hear it and watch the cookie crumble.

In the (multiple) cases of foreigners "making a scene", or getting visibly angry, raising voices, or having a tantrum, the foreigner only ends up being looked upon by others around as a complete imbicile.
It will be you who will be shamed, not the target of the criticism.
Making a "ruckus" is not the way to get anything done in Japan.

The technique is to stay COOL AND CALM, do not raise your voice, but get the message across that you are not happy with the service, etc. Ask to see a senior person. Be direct but always POLITE.
Staying cool and collected will get you results, believe it. We have employed the technique for years and it works. The only place where it has not worked is at the Park Hyatt in Tokyo, but this hotel is hardly "Japanese" by most standards.

Well, I don't know your Japanese friend, and I don't know enough about the circumstance that caused him or her to throw a tantrum - surely not a typical or acceptable behavior by Japanese standards - at that time and place. In any case, I don't understand why you said that I must be a foreigner. It is not about me, but about the behavior of your, hmmm, friend.

No tantrum was involved by me or my friend. It was a coordinated action that merely involved us asking for a refund of 1200Y for an express fee that wasn't used. I went and asked first and he said "no", so my friend came by and asked again repeating the same talking points about my brother not knowing any Japanese. The employee initially tried to claim a no refund policy, but it turns out there is a refunds policy. Seconds later, we got our refund less 200Y which he couldn't refund.

I note you didn't answer my question about being foreign or not to Japan but only indicated you don't understand why I insinuate this. Simply put, your first comment and this one sound like you're pontificating about Japanese culture but don't know it very well. (Cf. the flight attendant thing -- it's not just popular like it is elsewhere, it's super popular even to the point of general illogic -- when I was there in 2004, I met a HS student who wanted to do that and still wants to that -- had it explained by a friend).

Yes, Japanese people are, by and large, quiet, but they are not exclusively so. Further, Kansai is a louder area renowned for Japanese who complain and barter in stores (and famous comedians).

(Cf. the flight attendant thing -- it's not just popular like it is elsewhere, it's super popular even to the point of general illogic -- when I was there in 2004, I met a HS student who wanted to do that and still wants to that -- had it explained by a friend).

Just because it is "super popular" doesn't mean it is highly regarded. Hostessing is also "popular", and it isn't exactly the most "honorable" of professions, even if it pays well.

Why wouldn't it be popular? Free travel, see the world, glamorous (at least from the outside), and maybe meet some rich dude to marry?

In the (multiple) cases of foreigners "making a scene", or getting visibly angry, raising voices, or having a tantrum, the foreigner only ends up being looked upon by others around as a complete imbicile.
It will be you who will be shamed, not the target of the criticism.
Making a "ruckus" is not the way to get anything done in Japan.

The technique is to stay COOL AND CALM, do not raise your voice, but get the message across that you are not happy with the service, etc. Ask to see a senior person. Be direct but always POLITE.
Staying cool and collected will get you results, believe it. We have employed the technique for years and it works. The only place where it has not worked is at the Park Hyatt in Tokyo, but this hotel is hardly "Japanese" by most standards.

Park Hyatt hilton? that's not Japan.




I do agree with you that calm and polite is the best opening strategy and usually gets results. I'm quite certain however that it does not always work.

So the question is what do you do then?

The question of whether raising a scene works is whose position seems preposterous to the customers nearby.


It seems like I've been dramatically misunderstood here... see my immediately prior post for a description of the situation before you assume anything about tantrums.
First off, we were not angry. Second, my friend is not a foreigner (though I am). Third, I'll take his advice over yours.

Whether you look like a retarded foreigner and are subject to criticism depends on a number of factors. First, if you can't speak the language, you'll always take the heat. Second, if you are just angry, you will always take it. Third, if you violate Japanese taboos.

Just because it is "super popular" doesn't mean it is highly regarded. Hostessing is also "popular", and it isn't exactly the most "honorable" of professions, even if it pays well.

Why wouldn't it be popular? Free travel, see the world, glamorous (at least from the outside), and maybe meet some rich dude to marry?

a valid point. But being a FA is both highly regarded and more popular than in the West (or at least it was 5 years ago).

I'm a gaijin--a dark skinned gaijin. I've flown JAL a few times--maybe 12 or 15 flights total in J and F over the past 5 years. On every flight, it's seemed obvious that Japanese passengers received more attentive service than I did.

This will be just one data point, but I flew int'l C on JAL and was treated very well -- very pleasant FA's and GA's; the main FA and I had a great conversation about my travels and hers as an FA.

Oh yes -- I'm dark-skinned, in my late 20's but look young enough to be carded all the time, and don't speak Japanese. I am, though, OW Emerald and was dressed shirt-and-tie on board. Make of it what you will.

I am sorry, when I sit in a J or F cabin, I certainly do not actively survey the cabin or the FAs and try to compare their level of attentiveness towards other pax vs. me. That just seems weird. Why do you care so much about how others are treated vs. you? :confused: Was there something negative about the service you received in particular that prompted you to notice your different treatment vs. other pax?

Personal experience may have something to do with it, especially personal experience as (a) a minority and (b) an "out of place" minority. Have I ever been treated 'differently' in a negative way by an FA? No. Do I survey the F cabin and note that, 9 times out of 10, that I am the only black person and/or the only person under 30? Every single time. Do I need to do this? No -- I've been in premium classes enough to not be concerned about anything. Actually, being, er... 'unique' tends to get me more attention, in a good way, from FAs.

You realize Japan doesn't just consist of Tokyo just as New York is not representative of the United States, right?

I was hoping to get a better answer from you, now I am feeling sorry for you, just assuming things. BTW, before Tokyo, I lived in Kyoto, Kobe, Fukuoka, Morioka and Sapporo. Between 6month to a year, each place...

About "your" meal story on ANA, should I assume that there was only 1 western meal??? Since your sister requested it at boarding, they could have locked it for her and offer the rest of the western meals to the rest of the passengers. Or more likely, you can't get your choice if you have a lower status than the rest of the passengers. There is a procedure in ANA, where the best customers, get their first choice. BTW a NRT-TPE flight is a regional short flight, no very representative on catering. It is not a full service route.

I was hoping to get a better answer from you, now I am feeling sorry for you, just assuming things. BTW, before Tokyo, I lived in Kyoto, Kobe, Fukuoka, Morioka and Sapporo. Between 6month to a year, each place...

This is what you said and I quote:

Totally agree. I have been living in Tokyo for 10 years and can assure you that every parent will go for the doctor career over the FA.

You could have said: I have been living in Tokyo and other places in Japan for 10 years. It would have been far more accurate as an English sentence. Otherwise, please don't accuse others of not being able to read your mind if you are obviously unclear.

About "your" meal story on ANA, should I assume that there was only 1 western meal??? Since your sister requested it at boarding, they could have locked it for her and offer the rest of the western meals to the rest of the passengers. Or more likely, you can't get your choice if you have a lower status than the rest of the passengers. There is a procedure in ANA, where the best customers, get their first choice. BTW a NRT-TPE flight is a regional short flight, no very representative on catering. It is not a full service route.

I don't know. Whatever the reason is, it's not important. My point is, sure you can be loud and complain and you may get what you want. However, if a FA tells you a meal choice is unavailable, which can happen on any airlines, it doesn't necessarily mean you are being discriminated against. And complaining may get what you want, sure, except it may come at the expense of another pax's comfort. When I fly First or Business, usually long-haul transcontinental within North America, I have often volunteered to change meal with pax whose preference can't be accomodated. The last one was an AC SEA-YYZ flight in Business class. The pax was a UA MP elite, who had somekind of Kosher or vegetarian preference as part of his profile. The cabin had only 3 rows and I was sitting in row 2 right across from him. He was mad that AC did not pick up his dietary requirements in his MP profile. I volunteered to give him my fruit plate selection for the bagel and smoked salmon that AC was serving. The AC purser also ended up giving him some buy on board food items from Y for free I think.

I just think it's uncourteous to force another pax to give up his/her meal preference just so because you complain loud enough and wanted to share my sister's story as a FYI, nothing more.

Park Hyatt hilton? that's not Japan.

Flyingfox wrote "Park Hyatt in Tokyo", not Park Hyatt Hilton. What is a "Park Hyatt Hilton" anyways? Like a Toyota Camry Honda?

Personal experience may have something to do with it, especially personal experience as (a) a minority and (b) an "out of place" minority. Have I ever been treated 'differently' in a negative way by an FA? No. Do I survey the F cabin and note that, 9 times out of 10, that I am the only black person and/or the only person under 30? Every single time. Do I need to do this? No -- I've been in premium classes enough to not be concerned about anything. Actually, being, er... 'unique' tends to get me more attention, in a good way, from FAs.

In that sense, I can understand. I still remember as a 21 year old flying Qantas First class from LAX to SYD on my own many years ago, I distinctivley remember the male QF FA checking and checking my boarding pass (discretely) several times. ;)

I really do not believe that it is a language barrier on JAL....I hate to say it, but it is outright racism especially towards the non-caucasian group -- dark skinned people.

3 yrs ago, I flew JAL to HKG in J and my brother and I were completely ignored on the upper deck for the whole flight. I asked for an extra dessert after everything was done, and she just said no. It took forever to get our drinks and then some.

Since then, I have refused to fly JAL.

Flew J on JAL (award ticket!) a year ago. I'm a brown/non-white guy like yourself. The flight attendants went out of their way to take care of me. The English skills weren't the greatest, but I experienced top notch service, maybe better than my neighbors. My experience, however, might have been positively influenced by the Japanese language book I was reading for they asked me if I knew Japanese. I was a little concerned that I would be treated worse because of my race; fortunately that did not happen on the JAL flights I took.

As for the OP, sorry to hear about your experiences. Being treated unfairly because of your race, whether only perceived or real, is a sad thing to experience.

OP did not like the first class lounge, OP did not like JAL does not serve welcome drink, and then ..............

Trust me, if you have been to JL lounge on ORD, you won't like it either. It is really basic, F on the right and C on the left, F and C serve the exact same thing, no real food either. No showers, bathrooms share by both F and C side people. The only difference between F and C is C has a TV, whereas F has none. It is an enclosed room, so no view either. I was there in the evening for the OZ flight, OZ use this lounge on ORD. The only thing I can say somewhat nice about JL F lounge is there is "one" massage chair, usually when people sit in there, they never want to get up, hence no chance to try it out. If you have been there, you would so much appreciate UA IFL.

Also, OP said ORD to BKK.
How was the flight from NRT to BKK?
Is that bad, too.
Is there any difference of services.

How about the return flight if you have already returned?
You did not like the first class lounge at NRT?
How was the service BKK- NRT?
How was the service NRT-ORD?

From your total experiences of all four flights including the lounge staffs, you feel JAL is the racist?


It is very obvious you didn't even read the entire post by OP. OP had mentioned about rest of its flight in the original post. Read before you judge people.

Just wondering - was it an award seat?

I ask as sometimes the flight attendants do know and the service and attitude sometimes equals the price of the taxes.

Which means the service should be even better. The amount of money spent to get enough miles for an award F seat is mind boggling.

Also, the grammar of the OP grammar sucks, are you 5?

Flew J on JAL (award ticket!) a year ago. I'm a brown/non-white guy like yourself. The flight attendants went out of their way to take care of me. The English skills weren't the greatest, but I experienced top notch service, maybe better than my neighbors. My experience, however, might have been positively influenced by the Japanese language book I was reading for they asked me if I knew Japanese. I was a little concerned that I would be treated worse because of my race; fortunately that did not happen on the JAL flights I took.

As for the OP, sorry to hear about your experiences. Being treated unfairly because of your race, whether only perceived or real, is a sad thing to experience.

Japanese women's attitude towards foreign men can be very complex. I am not surprised you were treated especially well, while in anaggie's case, not so well. There is no shortage of Japanese women marrying foreigners in Japan, including dark skin black men. Likewise, many young Japanese women also like to work for non-Japanese companies because they believe they will be treated better and more equally as opposed to being treated like short-term employees who will soon marry off in a Japanese company. While the discussion of this thread is about some alledged racism on JAL, in Japan, gender-based discrimination against women is perhaps a far bigger issue. Japanese women are neither blind or unedcuated, they can see and they aren't necessarily "submissive" in the way media like to portray them to be. The inequality against women are so bad and their feelings ignored by Japanese men that there is a whole industry of women manga called Yaoi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaoi

This has existed in the 1970's and is essentially a manga for women only and it is almost always exclusively about same-sex love stories between young men. Now, it isn't because Japanese women all have somekind of gay male fetish - that ain't the case - rather, it's a women manga because its readers can actually temporarily escape the confinement of expectations by the society, which is really a cage imposed on women only. Yaoi really is a product of severe gender inequality in Japan. What this says also is that many Japanese women would rather love foreign husbands who would treat them more like equals, even if the society as whole views certain races quite lowly. Then again, it depends on who you run into and this isn't a 2 X 2 = 4 question. Hence, both you and anaggie could both be right - just ran into two completely different FAs and experiences.

Someone said wearing a suit & tie - aside from the fact that is totally unnecessary and uncomfortable thing to do on a long-haul flight and I tend to think those who do that as non-frequent traveller or on award ticket :D It doesn't hurt to look official though. Japan is a suit happy country, especially if you are a man. Foreigner who wears proper suits will probably regarded as business travelers, therefore, treated with just a little more respect than usual. If you want to trade your own comfort for a maybe, go for it, I never recall any Japanese person actually wearing a suit on a 12~14 hour flight in First Class, whether it's JAL or ANA, it would look ridiculous IMO but YMMV.

Edit: I did recall seeing one person wearing a suit and he was in C, likely a Japanese government employee or official. Even though he wasn't flying F, he had the right to disembark along with F pax. The FAs went to get him and he was received by a bunch of greeters once the cabin door is opened.

This is what you said and I quote:



You could have said: I have been living in Tokyo and other places in Japan for 10 years. It would have been far more accurate as an English sentence. Otherwise, please don't accuse others of not being able to read your mind if you are obviously unclear.

Wrong again with your assumptions. Before Tokyo I lived in other countries (before that I lived in Japan in several cities), so it is correct that I have been living in Tokyo for 10 years. Obviously as you don't know enough about Japan, 90% of the int'l FA positions are in Tokyo and so do the candidates come from (either Tokyo family or migrated to the city when young and grew up there), the rest (of the FAs) for statistical purposes do not count. Countryside as you can call all other places out of Tokyo does not represent the universe.

It is very obvious you didn't even read the entire post by OP. OP had mentioned about rest of its flight in the original post. Read before you judge people.

I am sorry I missed it.

Interesting to note that pe3ep has disappeared... Four posts in two days and away he went!

My guess is that there was a lot more to the story.

Interesting to note that pe3ep has disappeared... Four posts in two days and away he went!

My guess is that there was a lot more to the story.

I agree with you...he had his say and then p'd off. Shame.

To add my two cents to the issue, I recently flew JFK-NRT, NRT-BKK, BKK-NRT all JL First (well, NRT-BKK return was Jalways), and all three segments were superb. I had excellent crew, who couldn't do enough to help every passenger, regardless of ethnic origin. The food was truly delicious (some of the best I've had on many long-haul flights of late), it was beautifully presented and mid-flight snacks brought shortly after I requested them. PJs were offered, and when I went to change, the crew leapt into the lavatory before me, and flipped a lever, allowing a panel to drop to the floor from the wall which was covered in leather, permitting me to change on a non-urine stained bathroom floor - what a nice touch. On my NRT-BKK leg, I noted the purser had a brooch of gold grapes, signalling that she was a sommelier. We had a long chat after lunch and she told me about the courses she was taking and her ambition to become one of Asia's few, female masters of wine. Her English language skills impressive, as were her French and Italian. Her knowledge of wine was exceptional. So, you can see, the list of positive experiences I had on JAL First were many - in fact, I can't really think of a negative!

I am always curious about the lives of cabin crew, so have a small chat with them early on in the flight. They are usually very responsive and we interact well, and my bonus tends to be excellent service levels. I have also seen people board aircraft, throw bags on their seats, have a face that looks like thunder, and take out all their aggression on the cabin crew for some odd reason. They certainly don't do much to endear themselves to the crew, and then moan when they leave the plane that the experience was crap. Flying is very much a two way street - courtesies and politeness are met and often returned ten-fold when extended in an appropriate fashion.

Flying is very much a two way street - courtesies and politeness are met and often returned ten-fold when extended in an appropriate fashion.

Agreed... Flying NRT-BKK-NRT in J later this month (second trip this year) and I'm looking forward to the usual excellent service. Hopefully there will be an equipment swap and I'll get the new seat both ways!

I am always curious about the lives of cabin crew, so have a small chat with them early on in the flight. They are usually very responsive and we interact well, and my bonus tends to be excellent service levels. I have also seen people board aircraft, throw bags on their seats, have a face that looks like thunder, and take out all their aggression on the cabin crew for some odd reason. They certainly don't do much to endear themselves to the crew, and then moan when they leave the plane that the experience was crap. Flying is very much a two way street - courtesies and politeness are met and often returned ten-fold when extended in an appropriate fashion.

Agreed, that's why I make an extra effort to be courteous to other passengers and the crew on the plane, and even on the ground whenever I can. I definitely adopt a proactive attitude about this and it makes your own flying experience better too, it really does.

Incidentally, with the report of some significant decline in ANA premium cabin service, I will likely fly JAL First next time. I haven't yet been to their new F Suite so hopefully, I can add another positive review for their newest product.

see below

Whether you look like a retarded foreigner and are subject to criticism depends on a number of factors.

Classy comment..........:rolleyes:

The advice in my post was not meant for you, it was meant for others reading this - you apparently fancy yourself to know everything about Japanese culture anyway.

I think I will refrain from further commentary.

As for the OP, sorry to hear about your experiences. Being treated unfairly because of your race, whether only perceived or real, is a sad thing to experience.


Agreed. Sadly, discrimination happens all the time, especially some places in US and in Europe for non-whites. I dont mean to sound uncompassionate, but if what you claimed really happened in JL, at least now, you've had taste of discrimination and experienced what many people go through on dailly basis.

I suggest you write them a letter and explained what happened. For paying passenger, or even for an award ticket, F class should be something special.

nevermind...

a valid point. But being a FA is both highly regarded and super popular (or at least it was 5 years ago).

Prove it. Japan being Japan, somebody somewhere has run a survey or a poll on the most popular and/or most highly regarded occupations for women. Japanese text OK.

http://www.tjf.or.jp/clicknippon/en/jcn/t19jcn_e.html

Flight attendant is #18 among junior high school girls and #15 among senior high school girls. "Grand hostess" (i.e. uniformed airport ground staff) is #17 among senior high school girls.

http://www.tjf.or.jp/clicknippon/en/jcn/t19jcn_e.html

Flight attendant is #18 among junior high school girls and #15 among senior high school girls. "Grand hostess" (i.e. uniformed airport ground staff) is #17 among senior high school girls.

Domo domo young Jedi of Kojimachi-ku. I guess it qualifies as "popular", but I wouldn't say it is "super popular". Any findings on how respected or highly regarded the different professions are? It will save you from buying us the trimmings during the Mabon Festival next week.

A 2005 magazine survey of adult women in Japanese (http://allabout.co.jp/career/popularjob/closeup/CU20060118A/index.htm) gives the following ranking of popularity in broader categories:

1) Advertising/PR
2) Bookkeeping
3) Marketing
4) Translating/interpreting
5) Secretary
6) Wedding planner
7) Corporate services/HR
8) Film production
9) Airline cabin/ground staff
10) Decorator

" Is Japan Airlines racist?
it was certainly my experience.
two months ago I flew Chicago - Bangkok on JAL and scored a first class seat...."


not sure but i have a feeling that your .."scoring a first class seat ..." may have a strong influence on the service you received.

the japanese are masters of details like this ....be it a brand name ...the aura of having the "real deal " ...ie of paying for the first class seat ....so i do agree with DAVISTEV on this.

however its a no no as far as i am concerned to be treated like tis....i have seen some presumably well travelled but not well mannered Japs behaving very very badly when they get anything remotely less than what they expect...on other airlines...esp asian airlines .

will not rule out racism ...but then i have heard so much from asian friends and their MANY incidents of EURO and US airlines FAs -[ also QANTAS] giving virtually habitually racist service to NON white passengers esp to those they deem less travelled .....this on top of their average service to begin with.......

its a sad state of affairs.

I couldn't have had a more opposite experience from you on my JAL F flight (an award w/ AA miles, btw) yesterday from NRT-LAX.

I landed in NRT to discover there was a serious issue with my ticket due to an AA mess up - JL met my flight from DPS and walked me from the remote terminal to the lounge. Two separate agents in the First Class Lounge spent almost four hours working with me to resolve it including walking with me three separate times to AA (twice to the AC, once to ticketing) until the problem was fully resolved. When we expressed that we had hoped to go into Narita City to the Muji store, they plotted out for us instead how to go over to Terminal 1 to to the Muji-to-go (even calling to make sure they had what we needed before we left), walking us over to immigration, and drawing us maps - and printing out train schedules and maps to the Narita City store in case we didn't find what we needed there.

When we got back, they came and checked on me a couple of times in the lounge with my friend (who was flying business) to make sure we had everything we needed to be comfortable. (These were the nice ladies in the lavender suits, not the lounge attendants).

My flight was spectacular in terms of service. I felt like the crew doted on me and attended to my every need (without me needing to ask for anything) - in fact, I'm usually a pretty low maintenance passenger but the three attendants who worked our cabin absolutely fussed over me - suggesting I try different wines, offering me seconds on caviar, cocktail snacks, cheese, etc., bringing me things and checking on me throughout the flight. They wanted to know where I had come from and what I had done on my vacation, etc. I never had to ask for anything - things were suggested or presented before I could even think to want them.

I was the only westerner in First and I'm a Caucasian female in my mid-30s. I was dressed casually but smartly (pressed skirt, linen blouse, nice leather sandals). There were six Japanese in First also, four men, two women. My personal impression was that I had the best service - they seemed to spend more time at my seat than any other. My impression of JAL yesterday after this (and it was not my first time in JAL F or the Narita facilities) is that it is my new favorite carrier.

Let's get back to coming up with stories about the op (who has long since departed) rather than critiquing each other (a fault for which I bear much guilt here).

Maybe the dude just snuck up to first class rather than paying? That could explain exceptionally poor service, because the FAs would being thinking ...?

Let's get back to coming up with stories about the op (who has long since departed) rather than critiquing each other (a fault for which I bear much guilt here).

Maybe the dude just snuck up to first class rather than paying? That could explain exceptionally poor service, because the FAs would being thinking ...?

Seems you havent yet mastered the art of quitting while behind have you?:rolleyes:

mike

I have flown both JAL and ANA, not first class, but I certainly feel like I have had a much better experience since I both speak and look Japanese (but I'm not). I can't at all vouch for what happened to the OP, but the last time I flew JAL was 3 years ago...

Recently I've flown with ANA, and it looks like they're really short staffing their flights. I can't imagine being treated the way you did, but if I felt ignored I would have piped up at the very beginning.

Recently I've flown with ANA, and it looks like they're really short staffing their flights. I can't imagine being treated the way you did, but if I felt ignored I would have piped up at the very beginning.

They are indeed short staffing their flights, and I believe JAL is in a similar situation though I haven't flown with them lately. The cabin service is taking a long time and I expect it will be even slower once they start charging for things. It's still better than, say, United or American.

Remember being a FA is the highest honor a Japanese woman can have-it is more respected in society than her being a doctor (literally). The total opposite to the role in the US. For the most part, Japanese airlines are amazing. But, sometimes the culture intrudes..........Your weapon is to not lose your cool but let them know they are putting themselves in an "embarrassing situaiton" that hurts how others perceive their professionalism.

I wouldn't go that far.

Most very upper class Japanese females would not consider being a cabin crew member as being in 'the right' occupation. It is more of what is perceived to be a 'glamour' job for lower middle to middle class girls. A few rebellious upper class ones do it for travelling and fun, but it is certainly not such a coveted job among them.

They are definitely not considered on the same level as being a doctor or a lawyer. They are 'different' - you can be ugly as sin and become a doctor or a lawyer, but you can't become a cabin crew member. So, the attraction of the job is at a different level.

However, if you are a middle class man and marry a cabin crew member, you'd be deemed to be 'doing well' - it's a widely held idea (rightly or wrongly) that CCs are attractive, and at least have a little bit of brain, and good as looking after people.

Part of the attraction of being a cabin crew member for girls in Japan is the possibility of marrying well. There are quite a few ex-cabin crew members who married F passengers that they met on board (not your average F pax on award tickets - they are directors of very large companies etc), and also pilots (airline captains on a jet are occupationally/status-wise on a par, generally speaking, with doctors and lawyers in Japan).

So, it really is not seen to be 'above being a doctor' and it's not really a 'respected' job per se. It's just that many girls want to become one.

Asia’s largest airline by sales, posted the biggest quarterly loss in at least six years as companies slashed business travel.

Japan Air had a loss of 99 billion yen ($1 billion) in the three months ended June 30, compared with a loss of 3.4 billion yen in the same period last business year ...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azE2ikfwuaTo

Hoping this will make you feel better ... it sure made me feel good after my last lousy trip in C on July 27 NRT-LAX when they packed first class with free business upgrades (all Japanese) to the point that they cut down on the service and food. They did not serve all they promised online during dinner and they ran out of western breakfast in the morning. And they claimed that it was too late to serve from the ala-carta menu. It took another hour for us to land!!! So basically, I went to bed hungry and landed at LAX hungry after a first-class flight!!! :td: :td: :td:

Cheers!

Asia’s largest airline by sales, posted the biggest quarterly loss in at least six years as companies slashed business travel.

Japan Air had a loss of 99 billion yen ($1 billion) in the three months ended June 30, compared with a loss of 3.4 billion yen in the same period last business year ...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azE2ikfwuaTo

Hoping this will make you feel better ... it sure made me feel good after my last lousy trip in C on July 27 NRT-LAX when they packed first class with free business upgrades (all Japanese) to the point that they cut down on the service and food. They did not serve all they promised online during dinner and they ran out of western breakfast in the morning. And they claimed that it was too late to serve from the ala-carta menu. It took another hour for us to land!!! So basically, I went to bed hungry and landed at LAX hungry after a first-class flight!!! :td: :td: :td:

Cheers!

Sorry to hear that your flight didn't go as well as you expected. Were you in C or F? You said your trip was in C but you mentioned F service. Were you one of the lucky ones who got upgraded? There are a lot of people upgrading to C using the super discounted miles and that might explain why there are some/more F upgrades.

What do you mean by not serving everything they promised online during dinner? For the ala-carta menu, I believe the last order is around 1.5 hours before landing so it was actually too late to place your order an order before landing. Did they offer you the option of having one of those prepackaged sandwich or something? I know it's not as fancy as the items on the ala-carta menu, but I would have asked for one of those instead if I am really hungry (all they have to do is to bring it to you :p)

I wouldn't go that far.

Most very upper class Japanese females would not consider being a cabin crew member as being in 'the right' occupation. It is more of what is perceived to be a 'glamour' job for lower middle to middle class girls. A few rebellious upper class ones do it for travelling and fun, but it is certainly not such a coveted job among them.

They are definitely not considered on the same level as being a doctor or a lawyer. They are 'different' - you can be ugly as sin and become a doctor or a lawyer, but you can't become a cabin crew member. So, the attraction of the job is at a different level.

However, if you are a middle class man and marry a cabin crew member, you'd be deemed to be 'doing well' - it's a widely held idea (rightly or wrongly) that CCs are attractive, and at least have a little bit of brain, and good as looking after people.

Part of the attraction of being a cabin crew member for girls in Japan is the possibility of marrying well. There are quite a few ex-cabin crew members who married F passengers that they met on board (not your average F pax on award tickets - they are directors of very large companies etc), and also pilots (airline captains on a jet are occupationally/status-wise on a par, generally speaking, with doctors and lawyers in Japan).

So, it really is not seen to be 'above being a doctor' and it's not really a 'respected' job per se. It's just that many girls want to become one.


:td:

Sorry to read such a presumptuous post, making generalizations and judging people on their social class, intelligence and motivation... Lame !

Sorry to hear that your flight didn't go as well as you expected. Were you in C or F? You said your trip was in C but you mentioned F service. Were you one of the lucky ones who got upgraded? There are a lot of people upgrading to C using the super discounted miles and that might explain why there are some/more F upgrades.

What do you mean by not serving everything they promised online during dinner? For the ala-carta menu, I believe the last order is around 1.5 hours before landing so it was actually too late to place your order an order before landing. Did they offer you the option of having one of those prepackaged sandwich or something? I know it's not as fancy as the items on the ala-carta menu, but I would have asked for one of those instead if I am really hungry (all they have to do is to bring it to you :p)

Thank you JALPak for your concern. I usually do not complain, but in this case I must, as the service was below par and shabby at best. I have flown on JL in first-class in the past and know very well how good it can be.

I am sorry as I get the letters (C, F, J, etc.) mixed up … I flew business LAX-NRT-BKK and again upon return BKK-NRT. I saved the best for last, my ticket for the NRT-LAX leg of the trip was in first-class ... what did I know! They upgraded at least 9 people from business to first class and fully packed the first-class cabin which would been fine if they maintained the level of service but they failed to do so.

What I meant by they did not serve everything they promised online is the menu items online or on the paper menu given to me by FAs. They hurried me through dinner and all of the sudden they served deserts!!! What happened to all the appetizers mentioned in the menu, especially my favorite, the well-cocked eggplant??? For breakfast, they served me some meso soup, steamed rice, steamed vegetables and some nasty gelatin stuff after telling me that they ran out western breakfast! Economy class most likely had better breakfast than this. The FAs did not offer me any prepackaged sandwich or anything else after declining my ala-carte request. I really went to bed hungry and left the plane hungry. It did not kill me but this was horrible for first class cabin or any other service tier by an airline that prides itself as one of the best in the world.

Thank you again you've been very helpful on this thread.

Thank you JALPak for your concern. I usually do not complain, but in this case I must, as the service was below par and shabby at best. I have flown on JL in first-class in the past and know very well how good it can be.

I am sorry as I get the letters (C, F, J, etc.) mixed up … I flew business LAX-NRT-BKK and again upon return BKK-NRT. I saved the best for last, my ticket for the NRT-LAX leg of the trip was in first-class ... what did I know! They upgraded at least 9 people from business to first class and fully packed the first-class cabin which would been fine if they maintained the level of service but they failed to do so.

What I meant by they did not serve everything they promised online is the menu items online or on the paper menu given to me by FAs. They hurried me through dinner and all of the sudden they served deserts!!! What happened to all the appetizers mentioned in the menu, especially my favorite, the well-cocked eggplant??? For breakfast, they served me some meso soup, steamed rice, steamed vegetables and some nasty gelatin stuff after telling me that they ran out western breakfast! Economy class most likely had better breakfast than this. The FAs did not offer me any prepackaged sandwich or anything else after declining my ala-carte request. I really went to bed hungry and left the plane hungry. It did not kill me but this was horrible for first class cabin or any other service tier by an airline that prides itself as one of the best in the world.

Thank you again you've been very helpful on this thread.

You did not get your eggplant!?!? All of the appetizers came inside the same box as in the picture shown on their menu page (http://www.jal.co.jp/cgi-bin/jal/inflight/inter/search_svc.cgi?dep_tmp=nrt&arr_tmp=lax&class_tmp=f&month=8&dep=nrt&arr=lax&seatclass=f&x=36&y=8). It is really odd if the eggplant was missing and even odder if the cabin attendant forgot/skipped one of the appetizer boxes. Either way this is unacceptable. Especially with the breakfast situation, you should definitely be offered the meal choice before any of the op up passengers from C (I would say this applies even if you are on an award ticket because at least you paid for it using miles unlike the op ups who got the F service for free).

I would suggest writing JAL a complain letter but as others have suggested already, another (and possibly better) way to handle this is to confront them right the way, e.g. ask the cabin attendant "where is my eggplant?", "how come I am served AFTER the op up passengers?".

But on the bright side, they won't be having 9+ op ups if your fly in F to LAX after Oct 25 since there will only be 8 seats :D So hopefully this is a one-time incident and won't happen to you or anyone again.

Not to me- have you been rude to them in the first place?

I must have been the most cheapstake in the C cabin in NRT-AMS (sidepoint: in the flyeco 773ER) and walking thru the F cabin with shorts and sllippers and holding a bag of waterlogged shoes and shirt. (at least i wasnt wearing them as i managed to have a 3 minute shower before final call....)
and to make it worse they all knew (or eventually knew) i was on an award ticket AND does not speak japanese.

but to be honest that was one of the best flight i've had in terms of hospitality. Now I have to look for some comment forms cuz i'm lazy. (Note I was on BA and CX before this flight. while CX was nice, it was kind of too well-nurtured and I kind of prefer the JL style more.)

:td:

Sorry to read such a presumptuous post, making generalizations and judging people on their social class, intelligence and motivation... Lame !

My post has nothing to do with judging. That's how things are there - there is no 'classless society' or 'regardless of how you look' in Japan - yet, in any case.

It's not that I agree with how things are done in Japan, but they do have a different culture from most Western ones.

For you to mistake a statement of how things are in Japan as 'judgement' is rather unfortunate.
I also made no reference to intelligence levels of any occupation. It's you who appear to have read more into my post than what it is supposed to be.

I would certainly not make judgement about the Japanese CC's intelligence level in a negative way, having quite a few of them as personal friends (as well as Japanese doctors and lawyers - and yes I have to admit that I do not know any unattractive Japanese CCs whereas I do know a lot of unattractive girls in other professions - that's just nature). Even your negative perception about 'marrying well' etc is inappropriate. There is nothing negative attached to this in Japan - it is what many girls do aspire to do (there is even a special name for this, and it has no negative connotation).

I think Korean carriers are the most "exclusive" of non-Korean premium passengers, maybe then followed by Japanese.

The Chaebol and Keiretsu execs are, however, an extremely loyal customer group who clock up huge mileage and normally also have a co-branded airline credit card. So its quite obvious they get preferential treatment over the odd non-national.


Amen!

It clearly depends a lot on the particular FAs, as with many airlines. I flew JAL (J-Air) between two small domestic airlines, and I was probably the only foreigner the FA saw all week, so despite her weak english (the typical takeoff/landing announcements sounded like they were being read off of katakana) the service was great.

My gosh. I've only received great service on JAL.

Flying them from NRT-PEK and SHA-HND next month. Can hardly wait.

I'm also a resident foreigner in Japan, American but with Asian background. It tends to confuse a lot of people, but I haven't experienced serious and official racism yet.

Not to me- have you been rude to them in the first place?

I am never rude to the travel industry personnel or any one else for that matter because I know better ...

Here is the response I received back with 3000 bonus miles as a good will gesture ... should I accept?

Dear Mr. Kalboz:

I'm sorry we did not provide the quality first class service you expect and we want to deliver. Our goal is to provide a gracious service that is pleasing to the most discriminating customer, and I am concerned that we disappointed you.

Because we want your travel experience in our premium cabins to be truly something special, we do our best to cater our entree selections so that we can serve each customer the entree they prefer. To do so, we determine which entrees are selected most often, and provision accordingly. Sometimes, however, on any given flight, customer preferences may deviate from the usual and expected choices and unfortunately, you may not receive your first choice. We do try to keep these occasions to an absolute minimum with frequent assessments of customer preference trends and the consistent application of specific inflight techniques for soliciting meal requests. As you may have noticed, on even numbered flights we take entree selections from the front of the aircraft to the back and on odd numbered flights, from the back to the front -- however, I realize the selections may have been impacted by the additional customers in first class, yet we generally cater to a full cabin regardless of how many customers have confirmed reservations.

From your description of what occurred on your flight, it appears that our policies and procedures didn't serve you well on this occasion. Again, I apologize for your disappointment. I've alerted our Managing Director of Food and Beverage service to ensure that our catering and airport personnel are in full compliance with our provisioning guidelines and procedures. We'll do our best not to let you down again!

While we can appreciate your request for an adjustment, we must respectfully decline. We have a greater investment per customer in our first class cabin because we allocate more space for each customer than we do in coach. The privacy and comfort associated to the extra room are the most significant differences when traveling first class. Although the other components are important, space is clearly the highest cost element of the total package.

As a gesture of goodwill, I have added 3,000 bonus miles to your account. This adjustment will be reflected in your account very soon.

Mr. Kalboz, we value your long-standing loyalty and support and are eager to continue the relationship we have enjoyed over the years. Please be assured we are all working hard to provide the high quality service you have every right to expect when traveling with us.

Sincerely,

Xxxxxxxx X. Xxxxxxx
Customer Relations

Delta will undoubtedly ensure proper levels of cultural sensitivity within JAL.

Delta will undoubtedly ensure proper levels of cultural sensitivity within JAL.

Yea! Least Common Denominator! Let's treat everybody like crap!

Delta will undoubtedly ensure proper levels of cultural sensitivity within JAL.

Delta??? Why Delta? I thought we are talking about JAL and its FC service here. :confused: Did we change the subject and I missed it?

Yea! Least Common Denominator! Let's treat everybody like crap!

:D :D :D

I think Korean carriers are the most "exclusive" of non-Korean premium passengers, maybe then followed by Japanese. Interesting you should say that - I have no experience of JAL front cabins, but my (Caucasian) family and I flew a KE longhaul this summer in J and were definitely treated as second-class citizens by the all-female cabin staff. Korean males were fawned over, my son and I got perfunctory service, and my wife was virtually ignored for 10+ hours. I don't know if it was shyness, language skills (although there was definitely a language barrier), or cultural bias, but I would not opt to fly Korean Air again.

Delta??? Why Delta? I thought we are talking about JAL and its FC service here. :confused: Did we change the subject and I missed it?



:D :D :D

3000 miles is a joke! If space is the most important component, then they should delete all FC F&B and amenity offerings in their website and ads and stick to space.
Good luck with JAL and hope that a new investor could put that airline on track (at least financially).

Delta??? Why Delta? I thought we are talking about JAL and its FC service here. :confused: Did we change the subject and I missed it?

Reference to the fact that Delta and American are in talks to invest in JAL, reported first in Japanese media and now in the Wall Street Journal.

As you may have noticed, on even numbered flights we take entree selections from the front of the aircraft to the back and on odd numbered flights, from the back to the front



This is the first I've ever heard that JAL has a FEBO protocol for meal choices. Can anyone confirm?

im aware that some japanese FA do have problems communicating in english and that may hamper communications.

bearing that, jal, ana and other japanese carriers are not immune to cost cutting and this is quite obvious on some flights. ie, it affects the service you get on some flights.

on a recent jal sin-kul flight in J, it was strictly only 1 drink and that was only pre-flight only and even then, im pretty sure it was influenced by my japanese.

what the op experienced isn't only pertinent to jal but also to other carriers where the FAs may show preferentiel treatment towards other pax of other nationalities.

I have seen it on SQ, UA, QF, AF. It really depends on the crew.

Quite common but it doesn't mean its ok.

This is the first I've ever heard that JAL has a FEBO protocol for meal choices. Can anyone confirm?

Not sure about this in F cabin. Haven't see this recently in Y and C. I remember they used to served first meal from the front and second from the back on my LAX-NRT flight LOOONG time ago (before JAS merger) but they have stopped doing so and has always served from the front, at least on flights I am on.

bearing that, jal, ana and other japanese carriers are not immune to cost cutting and this is quite obvious on some flights. ie, it affects the service you get on some flights.


Yes, they have been cutting tiny things. Things you won't notice if you are not a FF of JAL. For example, on my HKG-NRT/KIX, HND-HKG flights in Y in July, they serve your meal right after take off. No more rice cracker with drink. At first I thought it's because HKG-KIX is a shorter flight, but I noticed the same thing when I flew HND-HKG and my usual HKG-NRT route two weeks later.

The weird part is I flew NRT-HKG a week before my HKG-KIX flight and rice crackers were served with drink before the main meal...I think they might be only serving this for longer flights now...

so...

NRT-HKG: serve rice cracker
HKG-KIX, HND-HKG, HKG-NRT: no rice cracker

But the good thing is, if you ask the cabin attendant, they will be happy to give you the rice crackers at any time...

Has anyone seen the same thing or just my crew forgot to serve them?

Reference to the fact that Delta and American are in talks to invest in JAL, reported first in Japanese media and now in the Wall Street Journal.

Thanks for the update ... now I see their point

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/15/business/global/15air.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

3000 miles is a joke! If space is the most important component, then they should delete all FC F&B and amenity offerings in their website and ads and stick to space.
Good luck with JAL and hope that a new investor could put that airline on track (at least financially).

I asked them to reconsider and their response that I got today is basically no further compensation:

Dear Mr. Kalboz:

Thank you for your most recent message. I am truly sorry. It seems that we have failed to effectively explain our position and procedures about the situation you reported, and apologize once again for what happened.

While we know you question the generosity of our offer, it was intended as a gesture of goodwill. Mr. Kalboz, I'm not eager to disappoint you again; however, we can't agree to further compensation.

On a more positive note, I recently flew JFK-NRT in C on an award ticket and had a great experience - as both a woman and a person of color I received the same level of service as the other passengers as far as I could tell. I was dressed fairly casually (dark jeans, nice blouse) but made a point of being friendly to the flight attendants who reciprocated (in perfectly adequate English). Usually I fly AA and the difference in the level of service was eye-opening. I'll definitely experiment more with other one-world airlines from now on. So there are definitely contrasting experiences to that of the person who started this thread...

Not sure if its racism per-se, but I always see favoritism towards asian customers. The only time I saw them fawning on a gaijin in F class was when it was George Lucas!

No issues at all on my recent
ITM-HND Domestic First
NRT-HKG Business

Staff were extremely polite and I certainly did not notice any shyness in communication. Overall was very impressed with JAL.

I did note that a number of passengers on the ITM-HND flight received gifts at the end of the flight (what I can only assume was some of the remaining wine or shochu) - although equally I would expect JAL policy is to favour its own FFers rather than those of another oneworld provider in this regard (and I'm sure QF does the same thing)

Had absolutely spotless service on ICN-NRT and NRT-LHR J-class few days ago. Noticed slight cost cutting measures (they switched the rice cracker vendor and no longer the very nice black colored packets) however main meals and light meals/snacks were superb and the portions as generous as before. As for the racism part, heck on the 2 NRT-LHR runs I have done, there is at least one FA in J who is Caucasian or even better, Japanese-Caucasian who speaks both languages. My GF who was travelling with me had her first JL Biz experience, and she was highly satisfied, and she is considering jumping ship from CX to JL Mileage Bank.

I'm a Hong Kong Chinese and never experienced any sort of racism onboard any JAL flight, and I don't speak a lick of Japanese. All I do is say Hi to the FAs when I board and be as pleasant as possible. Do note there are language barriers as some of the FAs speak basic English only, so try to be easy on the FAs, explain things in simple English, don't recite something from a Shakespeare play to them and expect a very upbeat response.

i speak zero japanese and look nothing like an asian, just went y from nrt-sin, some of the best service i have had. i slept through the dinner service and when the fa saw me awake she brought over my dinner, 3 hours after everyone else ate.

I flew NRT LHR landing yesterday in J and have to say the service was excellent.

If only the seats were as good as BA in Club.

Japanese in general and JAL flight attendants usually fawn over the gaijin. That being said, I'm not much on JAL because the current crop of FAs are mostly robotic air heads. Used to be a lot better in the old days.

It is discrimination, plain and simple and very common on JL. My two F experiences on JL were poor. While they did not ignore me to the extent they ignored you, they only provided a basic level of service (more business class standard). I assume some of it is language, but I found them a little rude, they went out of their way not to have contact with me. Very sad. I now fly only AA F to NRT or CX through HKG. I have do fly J now JFK-NRT it is J only, as they treat everyone the same and service overall is very cold, distant and mechanical. Is Japan Airlines racist?
it was certainly my experience.
two months ago I flew Chicago - Bangkok on JAL and scored a first class seat.
I though it was really going to be something special. Boy, did I have a surprise coming. They pump up first class on their website as something really amazing, with so many little extra comforts from fresh cooked rice to your choice of bedding. Too bad I never got to experience much of any of it.
Checked in no problem at T5 Ohare and was escorted to their first class lounge.
its really just a more private subsection of their regular lounge. the food, the drinks and service are the same , just a little more privacy.
I boarded, got comfy in my seat and waited for the first class service to flow. Unfortunately there was not even a trickle.
no welcome, no offer of a drink, which should be customary, nothing. it seemed weird at the time and still does now remembering it.
oh well, I figured, maybe when we get airborne.
not a chance. it was stunning: I was absolutely ignored. and its not like it was full, maybe 5 total including me, in first class. its big and spacious so not easy to get lost in the crowd. but the stewardesses absolutely refused to acknowledge me or even look in my direction as they were bringing drinks, pajamas and snacks to the two women in front of me or the guy next to me. I started watching the Japanese guy next to me get served endlessly and the stewardess could not stop serving him. there was always one attendant sitting on the floor next to him while others constantly visited him with pjs, snacks, drinks, reading materials not to mention big smiles. he must have been the japanese Bill Gates or Mick Jagger with the treatment he was getting. But they were also constantly visiting the two older japanese women seated in front of me.
It was an hour and forty minutes into the flight before a stewardess even stopped by my seat to ask me if I need anything. I asked for a drink and she never came back. I finally got up to go get my own and then she got a little jumpy and said she would bring it to my seat. Inside I was reeling. the guy next to me had already received and changed into his pajamas, was enjoying his third drink , what looked like a nice meal and the company of a young eager flight attendant.
Was I invisible?, I kept asking myself. In their eyes, very much so.
I was really getting a bad feeling by now, total downer on the whole first class thing.
it plain just sucked. In all my 38 years of flying I've never been that poorly treated, even worse than on any Southwest flight, and we all know what that's like.
I finally asked for the head stewardess(she called herself the Purser) and she came by and just kind of looked at me. and so I told her, where's my service?, where's my food?, where's my PJs?
and can somebody show me how to work the bloody remote?
she was polite and only slightly helpful. as long as they're polite, I guess, anything goes with the gaijin.
Food finally arrives but the whole experience so far has left such a real bad taste in my mouth that the food just seems tasteless. Even after this conversation nothing improves, I have to ask the purser again and again for water,for a drink for my pjs, for a magazine. Most of the time I had get up go to their station and wait for her to notice me.
On JAL's website they extoll their sleeping service in first class: fresh sheets, and your choice of pillows. I slept that flight on no sheets and just that little pillow that's there when you sit down. I had to wear my jacket to stay warm.
and the next morning I watched them all busily serve breakfast to the passenger around me, really only three, and then disappear. still kind of groggy, I didn't realize we were due to land in an hour and when I got up to ask for some food she said too late. plane is landing soon, please return to your seat.
I was the only white guy up there, everybody else was Japanese. draw your own conclusions
the other legs of my trip weren't half as bad and the fourth leg, my trip home Narita-Chicago I was booked on AA first class. I'll take it anytime. they might not have all the frills and new furniture but at least they treat everybody the same. it does make a difference and it does make for a pleasant flight.
I tell you though, I was stunned and offended by the poor service I received on JAL, really it was no service at all. I've never experienced that level of discrimination before in my life.
It was a real eye opener , especially after what I had spent on tickets.
Is JAL racist? I'm not sure how else to describe the way I was treated.
My answer is yes, yes they are.
If you're thinking about flying with JAL and especially any of the higher classes, you may want to reconsider if you are not Japanese. for them, its a joy ride. For me, it sucked big time.
I would be very interested to hear if others have had a similar (bad) experience with JAL. please post.
thanks for reading.

As a loyal CX customer I recently took a JL flight TPE-NRT-SFO in C to see what other OW airlines had to offer. They were full fare J tickets and my wife and I both have OW status.

I was a little disappointed by the four flights but racism was absolutely, positively not an issue. I think the problem with JAL for international travellers is that they are a little too Japan-centric but they are a Japanese airline after all.

For me the three biggest problems were seats, IFE and language ability of FAs. Seats and IFE are WAY behind carriers like CX.

The language ability of FAs was a big problem for my wife because she does not speak English and only the TPE-NRT segments had FAs that could speak Chinese at all. I got poked in the arm every two hours to translate for my increasingly frustrated wife.

I tried to make small talk with some of the FAs but their English level was just not good enough to talk about anything except inflight necessities. I asked one girl about how well they were doing on that route with paid tickets vs award pax. She tried her best and looked a little embarrassed but had no clue what I was talking about.

Service is inconsistent and FAs do not seem very good at noticing simple things such as empty water glasses. I really miss those preflight drinks on CX. However, if you call and ask for something explicitly the service is quick and efficient.

Some more positive points - food was very good and JL did a surprisingly good job to make us feel special as OW members. I had a personal welcome on 3/4 flights and we seemed to get our meal orders before most other pax.

At no point did I feel inferior to any other pax, in fact we seemed to get slightly better treatment due to status. Unfortunately while they have some good prices ex-TPE they are in a totally different league to CX and I don't think I would use them again. Sorry, JAL :(

The language ability of FAs was a big problem for my wife because she does not speak English and only the TPE-NRT segments had FAs that could speak Chinese at all. I got poked in the arm every two hours to translate for my increasingly frustrated wife.

NRT-SFO should have chinese speaking cabin attendants on board. They have a slightly bigger name tag telling you where they are from.

It is discrimination, plain and simple and very common on JL. My two F experiences on JL were poor. While they did not ignore me to the extent they ignored you, they only provided a basic level of service (more business class standard). I assume some of it is language, but I found them a little rude, they went out of their way not to have contact with me. Very sad. I now fly only AA F to NRT or CX through HKG. I have do fly J now JFK-NRT it is J only, as they treat everyone the same and service overall is very cold, distant and mechanical.

I think its a cultural misunderstanding. For some Japanese or Asians are somewhat reluctant to speak to foreigners due to language barriers, as the western culture tends to include alot of unrelated chit chat into everyday speech as an icebreaker or friendly gestures, and it complicates the conversation for them. If you're a New Yorker, you would certainly make references of how the Yankees are doing in your everyday speech, which means nothing to anyone outside of NYC.

Try and observe how the Japanese paxs speak to the FAs (especially the males). Usually its a polite, straightforward command or phrase without anything else. Remember Japanese/Asian culture is rather submissive or passive and it can be considered rude to be overly talkative, especially when in a service industry like an airline.

I've had similar experiences on AA because they treat employees and relatives of employees like they belong in F and the paying (cash or miles) public like they are intruders in the employee lounge.

I've seen that on UA as well.