American Express Membership Rewards - Forfeiture of Amex MR points for late Pmt

Amex just issued this addendum to the MR points agrement effective Sept 2009.

"Effective for billing periods beginning in September 2009, forfeiture of Membership Rewards points for late payment will apply to your enrolled
credit Card accounts. Accordingly, paragraph 1 of the Point Forfeiture for Late Payment section of the Program Terms & Conditions is changed
to read:
1. If the amount due on any Linked charge Card account or the minimum amount due on any Linked credit Card account is not paid in full
within one month of the closing date on the billing statement for that Linked account, points accrued in the program for that Linked
account for that billing period will be forfeited."

Thoughts from the FT comunity.

That sounds very much like the current rule. What's the change?

That sounds very much like the current rule. What's the change?

+1

Previous discussion here...

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-express-membership-rewards/974102-point-forfeiture-late-payment.html

The change pertains to credit cards (such as Blue and some business cards) which may be linked to the same Membership Rewards account as a charge card.

Sounds to me like there will be no chance to reinstate the forfeited points, which there is now.

Just another reason to avoid this program.

I prefer real airline miles which, once put in you AAdvantage or whatever account, tend to stay there ... without this evaporation problem.

Sounds to me like there will be no chance to reinstate the forfeited points, which there is now.

No, the next paragraph explains...

For any Linked Card account for which points have been forfeited, once the Linked account returns to good standing, the forfeited points may be reinstated for a $29 fee for each month of points reinstated.

I prefer real airline miles which, once put in you AAdvantage or whatever account, tend to stay there ... without this evaporation problem.

Yeah, but my points don't evaporate since I actually pay my bills. And I can move my points to several different programs, not just one.

Just another reason to avoid this program.

I prefer real airline miles which, once put in you AAdvantage or whatever account, tend to stay there ... without this evaporation problem.

Until they expire from lack of activity, or in some cases (like Aeroplan) from time spent in your account regardless of activity...

Yeah, but my points don't evaporate since I actually pay my bills. And I can move my points to several different programs, not just one.

+1

That is exactly the value of the Membership Rewards program

Well, that and the 4:1 I get on my PLAT simply for buying stuff online at virtually any big-box store in the USA. Including TVs and high-dollar items at Best Buy, for which I can simply select "in store pickup" and go down and get 'em.

Oh, and there's the fact that MR's redemption rates for WN are close to WN's own Chase Visa - and WN Visa offers zero online bonus mall, point multipliers on grocery & gas, etc. while MR has both.

Oh, and also the fact that I can transfer MR to a crapload of airlines and hotel chains, in some cases at rates better than 1:1. Like Hilton Honors, which just gave me six free nights at a Cat 6 in London for an MR xfer.

Well, that and the 4:1 I get on my PLAT simply for buying stuff online at virtually any big-box store in the USA. Including TVs and high-dollar items at Best Buy, for which I can simply select "in store pickup" and go down and get 'em.

Like the points, not the retailers paritcipating though. I can save 10+ %virtually every time I do a little searching on the good ole' internet. I love Fatwallet...

Well, sure. If price is your only concern, you can usually get rock bottom at one of the retailers reselling goodies on Amazon.com, or off Ebay...but you have to consider the value of the points you're getting. If you're only saving a few bucks, the points are more than worth whatever savings you might get on an alternative outlet. Although I'll grant you, if your savings are more substantial - like $100 - it might make sense to go outside the bonus mall.

Personally, I think the store selection is awesome. In many cases it's stuff I'd have bought from the brick & mortar store anyway, and it's simply no big deal for me to mail order instead. Also saves me gas plus time running around looking for whatever, and I live in a VERY high sales tax state - 9.75%. I don't generally have to pay it on online purchases. [Yeah, I know I'm supposed to, but I also know I live in a state that advertises "no income tax," and yet I pay one on dividends and interest each year. So we'll call it even.]

Just wish they had a good camera store on there - Ritz does NOT count. They had B&H for a while, but it's been gone for a long time.

The one real downside, IMO? You can't use coupon codes in conjunction with BonusPointsMall.com. Although there are tales here on FT of people doing that and getting the 4:1 (3:1 for Gold, 2:1, etc.)

Well, sure. If price is your only concern, you can usually get rock bottom at one of the retailers reselling goodies on Amazon.com, or off Ebay...but you have to consider the value of the points you're getting. If you're only saving a few bucks, the points are more than worth whatever savings you might get on an alternative outlet. Although I'll grant you, if your savings are more substantial - like $100 - it might make sense to go outside the bonus mall.


I have to disagree with you here. You're talking about a % cost increase. So if you're paying 10% extra for points you are doing so no matter the number of points involved. If you're paying extra you should be sure that you're actually getting the value for the points. I wouldn't pay 10% extra solely for the points, whether it was 40 or 40,000. Either way it is real money and there are generally more affordable ways to get those points.

Not sure I understand your contention (and I realize we're getting seriously OT here, so I'll write one more post, then try to find a thread that discusses BPM specifically)....

Certainly there are examples where you can score better deals using vendors that are outside BPM on any number of things. There's not one thing wrong with using cost as a motivator when looking at virtually any purchase, although I do think it can limit your options vis a vis loyalty programs in general.

For example. Buying hotel rooms through Priceline is the cheapest option, but you get no loyalty program points or bonuses you can redeem for upgrades or freebies. Whereas if you go the loyalty program route, you get a lot more say over your circumstances - which hotel you can stay in, most importantly. You do wind up paying for the privilege - but who's to say you won't wind up paying in other ways? What if the hotel Priceline assigns you requires a lengthy, expensive commute to activities you want to do on your stay, or it's loud and the room is in poor condition? If you're a Hilton Diamond, for example, and you call down to complain about some issue, Hilton WILL fix the problem. This service is worth something, even if it's only a good night's sleep and having a great time on your vacation.

If cost is the only motivator, then you're really having a different discussion than someone talking about the value of loyalty programs. Shopping on Priceline for a hotel for a vacation is well and good, but if you're forced by work circumstance, say, to stay at a certain Hilton in Philly - well, you'd be a fool not to join HHonors and start racking up those points to get free stuff. I think this is something of the same principle.

Where MR is so valuable for me personally, is when I'm going to buy something anyway and there's not that much price variability. Take electronics, for example - JR.com, Best Buy, TigerDirect.com, CompUSA.com, all compete for price points for certain hot items. Why shouldn't I buy from Best Buy, JR or Tiger and garner multiple MR if I'm going to get the same price as I would at some non-BPM vendor?

Let's use another circumstance-based example. Say that for my business I need a computer with components A, B, C, D and for those reasons it doesn't make sense for me to buy used. If I need a Dell computer, and I'm going to buy it anyway, I'd be dumb not to go through BPM and score 4:1 as opposed to simply calling Dell's 800 number.

Even if it weren't the case that I needed a specific item I couldn't obtain elsewhere more cheaply, I can't think of many vendors that routinely beat the likes of BestBuy.com, Target.com, Walmart.com, price-wise - with the exception of Amazon.com. [Amazon is usually my main option when I can't find something at a competitive price from a BPM vendor - but I'm a member of AMZ's Vine Voices program, so I get free stuff for reviewing their products. Wish I could tell others how to join VV, but it's generally invite-only, based on the number of 'helpful' votes your reviews receive.]

I guess I'm curious what other stores folks would have to see added for them to think BPM is a good deal. Granted, they could do with more grocery and drugstore items, as well as camera shops, in my world, but I think they're pretty well covered when considering availability of general merchandise.

You do have to be choosey. The break point for me personally is about 5%, where if I'm paying 5% more to use BPM than I would using a non-BPM vendor, I'll start looking for other options - Hilton and Delta also have online bonus malls featuring different vendors, as do many others (use insanely valuable tool www.evreward.com to calculate options for a particular vendor.)

[5% may seem high to some, but again, I personally live in a state with a very high sales tax - so I'm 9.75% ahead already simply by buying something online.]

I don't think this or any program is the panacea for every personality. If you're really thrift-minded and find cost dictates your spending decisions more often than not, and you don't mind the occasional inconveniences that philosophy entails - you're probably better off going with a cash-back credit card in the first place. Which makes me wonder why we're having this conversation on the American Express message board :D

In cases where you are going to buy something anyways at the same price it absolutely makes sense to get the points for the transaction.

In cases where you are paying extra for the luxury it rarely does, IMO. A very simple example is paying taxes with your CC. That generally costs 2-3% extra over the true cost of the transaction. That means you'd be paying 2-3 cents per mile, a rate that I am contending is too much. You've stated that your threshold is 5%, a number that I think is even worse. You've also stated that you're actively committing tax fraud, but that's a different issue. ;)

I'm not saying that the points are only worth a penny each, at which point I would be better off with a cash-back card. I'm saying that I wouldn't invest more than a penny to buy a point as the ROI value isn't there for me.

The discussion about Priceline v. direct booking for hotels is an interesting one though not entirely related to the above since status comes into play along with points. Still, I've switched the vast majority of my personal hotel bookings to opaque booking solutions. It is rather easy to have a VERY good idea of what hotel you'll end up in and the cost savings I've realized just this year are sufficient to make up for any other benefits I might have received for having status or earning lots of points to redeem for my next trip. Don't get me wrong, I'll still collect points at the hotels when I am there on a stay that accrues them, but for my personal stay profile the hotel loyalty programs do not make financial sense.

... 2-3 cents per mile, a rate that I am contending is too much. You've stated that your threshold is 5%, a number that I think is even worse.

Bonus Points Mall awards Platinum cardholders three extra points per dollar. A 5% premium would value the points at $0.017 each, which is defensible.

As with all things, it pays to shop around. Sometimes, BPM is the best option, but most of the time I find better deals via airline sites, fatwallet, and now, Bing.

Also, note the T&C for BPM: you CANNOT use any other promotion or coupon.

This is not true with some other shopping portals... pays to read the T&C. For example, lately, Bing has been pretty generous with cashback at some stores. I've made a few purchases lately where I stacked free shipping, 10% off and item-specific rebates and coupons along with 10-12% cash back. That's a whole lot better than BPM - where if I used the 10% off coupon I'd have received NO points!

So, on this last purchase, got new sunglasses: $130 retail, on sale + 10% off + free shipping... paid $94, then got $9.40 back from bing as well. On BPM, I would have paid $94 with no points, or about $105 with about 400 points (free shipping worked either way).

Personally, I don't think that 400 points is worth $20.

On BPM, I would have paid $94 with no points, or about $105 with about 400 points (free shipping worked either way).


Actually, you would have received only 282 points (94 x 3) from Bonus Points Mall. The first point per dollar is the base point you earn for using your credit card, and has nothing whatsoever to do with using any specific shopping portal.

mia, you know I worship the ground you, er, post on ;) but as of now PLAT earns 4:1. They've been monkeying with the rate on and off over the last year or so; the 4:1 ratio was only to have lasted thru last year's Christmas season, but lately it seems they've decided to keep it on. I haven't seen anything in PLAT literature lately to indicate there's some end date to it, but of course that's a possibility since BPM T&C indicate that they can change any aspect of the program without notice.

I actually ran some quick math before I wrote the post last night. [For comparison purposes, I used aspects of cashback cards I could find here (http://www.creditcardguide.com/cashback.html).] In a few different scenarios, cashback is clearly as good or a better option than MR - particularly for gas and groceries, which earn you 5% in many cashback programs. However, for purchases outside gas, grocery, & everyday spend, MR can be a better option, especially if you have a fair amount of discretionary income or if you patronize certain programs with superior exchange rates for goods & services.

I'm most familiar with the programs that lend themselves to my particular area, which is why I'm using Hilton and WN in the examples below; since much of MR is dependent upon the vendors and programs participating and the earnings/redemption rates, it's quite possible another hotel program or airline would "cost" much more or not be a good deal. However, it's also possible there could be a better deal redeeming with another brand, which is why I'm saying MR's benefits vary according to how you use the card to earn and for which chains you redeem the points. Of course, I'm completely open to other points of view on these issues, since I'm as interested in a good deal as the next FT'er and it's entirely possible there's some aspect of all this that simply hasn't occurred to me yet ;)

For starters, let's focus on a hypothetical budget of $4000 per month [not including mortgage, which is un-payable by any CC I've been able to find.] If you spend $1000 on gas and grocery, PLAT = 2000 MR [2:1 on g & g, a relatively new program feature], vs. $50 cashback at the most generous rate on g & g, 5%. The rest of your budget is discretionary - say you spend $2000 on BPM. This earns you 8K points on PLAT for a running total of 10K, while cashback is up to $70. This leaves $1000 left over for misc items like paying the lawn service, for which you'll only earn 1:1 on PLAT - leaving your final total PLAT 11,000 to cashback at $80.

Do this two months in a row and you'll earn enough points to score a lower end room at Hilton, around 20,000 points, or using cashback you'll have $160, which is enough to purchase a better room outright. But this is before you consider the HH exchange rate, which is 1:1.3 for Hilton. You'll actually earn 30-some thousand points, or enough for a night at a Cat 4 Hilton - and for which you'd pay about that same $160. You'd basically break even. Sure, cashback is going to have a much lower annual fee, but the additional services you get from PLAT are worth something too - I personally enjoy the DL lounge access, among other benefits.

However, the key to MR is banking earnings on larger purchases over time, since MR points don't expire. Say you're going to spend $1000 on a specific Panasonic TV you can either buy locally at Radio Shack using cashback or online at Bestbuy.com using PLAT. You'd be (much) better off using PLAT: 4000 MR vs. $10 cashback. Do this six times; you either get a free Cat 4 room at Hilton or $60, about 30% what the room would cost. Yep, you could spend $60 at Priceline and get something decent, but probably not in a comparable area or with the same benefits, and Priceline is limited to U.S. properties. HHonors has no such restrictions. Also, HHonors counts award stays toward VIP tier qualifiers; with Priceline you get bupkus.

Also, for some specific programs, MR's redemption options make it an outstanding deal. Take WN: the MR exchange rate is 1500 = 1 RR. It takes 16 RR to earn a free ticket with no geographical restrictions, or $6000 in spend on BPM at 4:1. The same ticket, let's say LGA-LAX, might cost $400 normally. You'd have to spend a whopping $40,000 on a 1% cashback card to "earn" the $400 it would cost to buy that ticket. Even if you were earning the max 5% on your cashback, buying only gas and groceries, you'd still spend $8000 - 25% more - to earn back the money to buy that same ticket.

I'll agree that paying taxes using a CC, and anything else that charges a fee for the "privilege" of CC use, is a terrible deal.

It makes sense for me to use MR - whereas I certainly agree it's not a program that will work as well for everyone, or maybe even most people. Actually, where I part ways with most Flyertalkers is my relative lack of enthusiasm for the SPG program - I'll agree it's very generous with great availability, etc., but the MR transfer ratio is awful - 1:3 - and there are no online malls or category multipliers available. If I were doing a lot of hotel stays at Sheraton, it'd be another story, but as I rack up most of my points using CC spend, it's not the best deal for me.

Should we start another thread called something like "economics of MR"? Seems that there's some interest in discussing this topic and we're hardly being fair to the folks who want to read about the forfeiture of MR points.

When American Express says "2x" they mean "one more point per dollar". Likewise, when they say "4x" they means "three more points per dollar".

When you shop at the Bonus Points Mall you receive one point per dollar for paying with the card, and three points per dollar for buying through the portal. This is a total of four points per dollar, but only three can be attributed to the mall because you would earn the first point merely by paying with the card.

... earn enough points to score a lower end room at Hilton, around 20,000 points...

Converting to Hilton HHonors points is not a persuasive way to illustrate the strength of Membership Rewards. In your example, $1,000 monthly spend on groceries and gasoline would generate MR 2,000 and convert to HH 2,600. If you were to use the Hilton HHonors American Express credit card for those same purchases you would earn HH 6,000, plus you would earn 6 points per dollar on some of the items that you have consigned to the miscellaneous category.

Earn 6 HHonors bonus points for every eligible dollar you spend at Hilton Family hotels, and at grocery stores, drugstores, gas stations, wireless and home phone, internet, cable, and satellite TV service providers. Earn 3 HHonors bonus points for every eligible dollar charged everywhere else

http://www201.americanexpress.com/getthecard/learn-about/Hilton-HHonors

If you value HHonors redemptions you might look at using the HHonors credit card for the 6 point categories, and continue to use the Platinum card for Bonus Point Mall shopping. The link above leads to the free HHonors card, but there is also an enhanced version...

http://www201.americanexpress.com/getthecard/learn-about/Hilton-HHonors-Surpass

Yep, you could spend $60 at Priceline and get something decent, but probably not in a comparable area or with the same benefits, and Priceline is limited to U.S. properties.This is simply not true. It is not all that hard to know with a very high probabilty what the PL properties are in a given zone/level for major cities. And they absolutely operate outside the USA.

I'll agree that paying taxes using a CC, and anything else that charges a fee for the "privilege" of CC use, is a terrible deal.But this is exactly what you said you were doing originally. You said that you would pay more out of your pocket (up to 5%) for the luxury of collecting the bonus points through the BPM rather than paying a lower total cost.

And, as noted, using hotel transfers as a valuation for MR points is a horrible idea. Both HH and SPG transfer rates are miserable. The airline transfers represent a much more reasonable method of price shopping.

Actually, you would have received only 282 points (94 x 3) from Bonus Points Mall. The first point per dollar is the base point you earn for using your credit card, and has nothing whatsoever to do with using any specific shopping portal.

Good point - although to look at it another way, add the 94 points to my savings going via Bing :)

Thanks, mia. I actually do have the Hilton card and my spending pattern is exactly what you suggest. My first draft of the above post included HH Amex math as well, but I didn't want you folks to have to read ten pages of calculations ;)

My favorite trick: Buying Visa or Amex gift cards at Walgreens for 6:1 on Surpass, then using them through Hilton's HHonors online mall to score 12:1 or so....

This is simply not true. It is not all that hard to know with a very high probabilty what the PL properties are in a given zone/level for major cities.

Yep, I've looked at BetterBidding.com also. What I actually said was, "you can't spend $60 and get something that's comparable to a Cat 4 Hilton in many cases," and I stand by that - a quick check of the forums at BetterBidding.com confirms that statement. You'll find capacity particularly tough if want to book a room during an in-demand period, like a property near the site of a popular music festival, and your only option will be staying at a less desirable property or more out of the way area, for which you'll then need to pay transportation costs. This can be formidable in cities like Atlanta or Los Angeles, which are sprawling and have few public transit options.

Using an elite program, you'll likely have several properties to choose from. If you have to spend more money on a desirable booking if no awards exist, you'll earn a multiplier on the money you spend, like 6:1, and you'll be able to redeem those points later for another deeply discounted or free booking.

And they absolutely operate outside the USA.

So why does the booking page at Priceline.com ask for as its three options to find you a room, a hotel, a city, or a U.S. address? [Edit: My bad, I don't use Priceline much and I see where you can actually select landmarks such as, say, Eiffel Tower. But I think that "U.S. Address" business could confuse a lot of people with no in-depth knowledge of the website.]

Clearly, I'm no expert on discount room brokers, since I'm on here defending elite status. I'm sure there are plenty of options for non-U.S. discount bookings, but again - I think there's a good case for staying with the elite programs. You don't want to, your business, but I don't think those of us who do should be told such programs are necessarily a worse way to conduct our affairs.

But this is exactly what you said you were doing originally. You said that you would pay more out of your pocket (up to 5%) for the luxury of collecting the bonus points through the BPM rather than paying a lower total cost.

Ah, I get what you're saying. To be perfectly clear, I rarely pay a 5% premium for using BPM - like very rarely, maybe five or six times per year, for spend totaling maybe $500, so my 5% totals about $25. For the most part, though, BPM has vendors that mostly cover what I need. I buy cat treats & paper towels from Drugstore.com (free ship over $50, lower prices than my local A&P); camping gear from REI (exact same selection and prices as my local store, in-store pickup is free so no shipping costs); electronics and software from Apple and Best Buy (also same selection, same in-store pickup)...but I don't think that'll interest most folks.

Even if I did it more often, there are hidden costs involved with going the route you're outlining that I think in many cases wind up costing more than 5% on purchases. Parking, internet, breakfast at hotel properties - free in many cases by becoming an elite. Parking alone can easily top $100 over a few days at many big-city hotels, so I'm recouping part of my 5% there.

Let's use an airline scenario. Sure, airlines have sales all the time and if you're lucky, you can find a discount fare LGA - LAX, to use that example again, for only a couple hundred bucks. But that ticket will only be good for certain dates, will likely involve a Saturday stay, etc. What if you need to fly next week, because of a death in your family? Good luck scoring that fare for under $1000 or so on a legacy or even under $700 on WN. Using MR, you'd have a few different options to get a flight - for the same cost in points as you'd spend to get that ticket for a date six months from now, or what works out to be a substantial discount in spending, no matter how you slice it. Hello, remainder of the 5%.

[DL does charge fees for last-minute award bookings and for changing an award ticket, but you'd pay a lot more for doing those things on a paid itinerary.] It could be that you personally never have occasion to travel at the last minute, but many people do.

Another example might be Frontier Airlines, which transfers from MR 1:1 - but offers award tickets for 20,000 points. It's a great option for travel out West, particularly if you like DEN. You'd spend $5000 on BPM to get those points - or again, you'd spend $40,000 on a 1% cashback card to "earn" $400 to buy your ticket outright.

Getting your ticket [much] faster and for spending [vastly] less money means you're paying less in opportunity costs. It could easily take the average person over a year to rack up $40,000 on a credit card. What if I needed that ticket quickly and for something specific? By using MR, I'd get 8 free tickets for that $40,000 spend on the 1% cashback card. Think there's any chance I might have given in and paid cash for one of those tickets at full-fare in that year's time because I needed to get somewhere due to some deadline, or just for vacation?

Some airlines aren't a great deal: AA, for example, has no direct path from MR at all, and running your points through Best Western results in a devaluation. US, UA are similarly bad. CO and DL are both 1:1, tho, and at least a couple of times a year you earn a dramatic 30% bonus for transferring points from MR>Skymiles. I've been known to stockpile them during such periods.

Again, also, relative program value depends on your personal travel and spend profile. If you have a large family and occasion to spend $2 or $3K on gas or grocery a month, you should get a card that gives 5% back on those purchases. Also, I can certainly see how folks living in a, say, AA or US hub wouldn't see much value in MR.

And, as noted, using hotel transfers as a valuation for MR points is a horrible idea. Both HH and SPG transfer rates are miserable. The airline transfers represent a much more reasonable method of price shopping.

??? HH is not "terrible" at all. It's 1:1.3, which means you get 30% more HHonors points for your MR, not 30% less. Perhaps you misread what I wrote.

camping gear from REI (exact same selection and prices as my local store, in-store pickup is free so no shipping costs); Try SierraTradingPost. They may or may not be in BPMs but their prices are generally much better than REI, at least in my experience, plus they have lots of coupon codes and shipping is generally dirt cheap. You might be getting the same price at REI.com versus your local store but that doesn't mean it is the best price on the product you need. Plus, you're still paying tax and gas to go do that pickup at REI.


Even if I did it more often, there are hidden costs involved with going the route you're outlining that I think in many cases wind up costing more than 5% on purchases. Parking, internet, breakfast at hotel properties - free in many cases by becoming an elite. Parking alone can easily top $100 over a few days at many big-city hotels, so I'm recouping part of my 5% there.Which hotels have you stayed at lately that offer free parking for elites? That is one I've never seen. When I am choosing the property I tend to book into the HGI/Hampton/Courtyard/4Points level properties more than the full service ones so breakfast and internet are always free. And when that doesn't happen I don't pay the $25 at the hotel for breakfast. That isn't really a savings for me at all.

Let's use an airline scenario. Sure, airlines have sales all the time and if you're lucky, you can find a discount fare LGA - LAX, to use that example again, for only a couple hundred bucks. But that ticket will only be good for certain dates, will likely involve a Saturday stay, etc. What if you need to fly next week, because of a death in your family? Good luck scoring that fare for under $1000 or so on a legacy or even under $700 on WN. Using MR, you'd have a few different options to get a flight - for the same cost in points as you'd spend to get that ticket for a date six months from now, or what works out to be a substantial discount in spending, no matter how you slice it. Hello, remainder of the 5%.This is, again, simply untrue. Assuming NYC-LAX (no need to artificially limit it to LGA) there are fares available for purchase right now for a departure tomorrow and return on Monday for <$900 on non-stop flights and for ~$600 if one is willing to connect and fly on US Air. And the chances of scoring a reward ticket on those flights is tremendously low. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that MR can get you that ticket. Maybe for 50,000 (or 60,000 on DL) points but that is nowhere close to a 5% value of the points; it is less than 2%, and that is before you consider the excise tax to transfer the points and the other fees to issue the ticket. If I save 5% on $12,500 in spend by not putting it through BPM then I actually have over $600 sitting in my pocket. I can spend that on any flight and at any time. It is a toss-up there at best as to whether BPM is a good investment there.

Also, the change fees on a last minute purchase are generally very low or nil since they are full fare tickets; the change fees on reward flights are still there. Yes, I occasionally have to buy last minute tickets and points is rarely the best way to do so from NYC.

You'd spend $5000 on BPM to get those points - or again, you'd spend $40,000 on a 1% cashback card to "earn" $400 to buy your ticket outright. Why is the 1% value being considered here? I've never suggested that the 1% cash back is where the value is. I'm suggesting that by not spending the money in the first place - in this case $250 not spent by not overpaying 5% to use BPM - is where the value is.

Getting your ticket [much] faster and for spending [vastly] less money means you're paying less in opportunity costs. It could easily take the average person over a year to rack up $40,000 on a credit card. What if I needed that ticket quickly and for something specific? I'd probably pay a whole lot more than 5% of $400, or $20, to book a paid ticket on F9 or virtually any other airline. I think we're talking past each other here. I also think that your math doesn't make much sense. And I REALLY think that the expectation that most folks put $40K annually on a CC is way too high.

??? HH is not "terrible" at all. It's 1:1.3, which means you get 30% more HHonors points for your MR, not 30% less. Perhaps you misread what I wrote.
HH is a terrible use of MR points because if you intend to redeem for HH you should earn those points directly through one of their cards, not transfer from MR. You're "losing" a lot of points because of your choice to earn in MR and then transfer to HH, on the order of a 70% devaluation, I believe.

...HH is not "terrible" at all. It's 1:1.3, which means you get 30% more HHonors points for your MR, not 30% less.

30% more points doesn't tell us anything about value.

If you can spend $1,000 on your Hilton HHonors card and receive HH 6,000 points, how is it good value to spend $1,000 on your Platinum Card, transfer to Hilton, and receive only HH 1,300 points? It's better value to buy HHonors points for $0.01 each than to transfer Membership Rewards points to Hilton because the MR points are worth more than $0.013 each.