Amtrak Guest Rewards - Seeking other opinions on NYC to Montreal service

My wife and I just finished a RT from NYC to Montreal on Amtrak, and we both were very disappointed with the experience.

Perhaps European rail travel and even the NE corridor have spoiled us... but the trek to Montreal paled in comparison.

Slow, stop and go travel, restrooms were not maintained (it is an 11 hour trip), poorly maintained equipment, bumpy rails, etc.

Was our experience just the luck of the draw, or have others been under-impressed by the service on this route?

I was going to transfer some orphaned miles from Continental to Amtrak and try some other non-NE Corridor travel by train, but I'm not sure I want to do that now.

Your experience is fairly typical for the Adirondack route. It has also been subject to increased border delays as of late (in both directions). Being the only train in the Amtrak system that takes double-digit hours to traverse its route and yet still has just coach seating, the Adirondack's service is uniquely lackluster, on top of the routine delays. In the fall months, Amtrak often equips the train with a spacious, historic dome car, but that's only a handful of days each year.

I'd say that the vast majority of other Amtrak trips that long would offer a better service experience. Your best bet would be to redeem your points for overnight First Class sleeping car travel on the long-distance routes (5 of which serve NYP). As has been discussed on many other threads, it's a very good value for point redemption (especially if you bring the wife, since the redemption levels are the same for one passenger or two). The accommodations, while compact and not lavish, can be quite comfortable, and your ticket includes meals in the dining car. It's usually a very novel experience for anyone new to it. I hope this helps!

Mr travelmad478 and I took Amtrak from NY-Montreal this past February. I am a very frequent rider on the NEC, and didn't find anything particularly disappointing about the Montreal trip. It was extremely slow, but it's not like that was a surprise, since the schedule spells it out pretty clearly. No problems at all with the equipment--seats were the usual Regional-type, and I didn't notice anything objectionable about the bathrooms.

Was our experience just the luck of the draw, or have others been under-impressed by the service on this route?

From my experience, the Adirondack and the Vermonter are constantly duking it out over which one can provide the worst and slowest service in the Amtrak system, so it's not just you.

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Was our experience just the luck of the draw, or have others been under-impressed by the service on this route?

From my experience, the Adirondack and the Vermonter are constantly duking it out over which one can provide the worst and slowest service in the Amtrak system, so it's not just you.

The Vermonter is slow, but I actually like the service. The coaches I've seen are always reasonably clean, and the 2-1 Club seating in Business Class is superb (the Adirondack desperately needs this option). The crews are also generally friendly IME.

the Toronto-Montreal Via Rail trains travel at the similar distance of NY-Montreal route of 360 miles, but the Canadians do it better at 5 hours one way and they're trying to make it within 3 hours in the next decade.. maybe the Americans are still trying to beat the train system of USSR? I heard that in the 1980s the Japanese can travel 360 miles in 2 hours... oh well, that was 30 years ago before The Simpsons.

To survive on NY-Montreal Amtrak's 11 hours, I guess one has to dial back the clock by reading a book from pre-1900s on the train ride.. so that one will appreciate how fast the train is actually going when compares to those rode by Teddy Roosevelt.

the Toronto-Montreal Via Rail trains travel at the similar distance of NY-Montreal route of 360 miles, but the Canadians do it better at 5 hours one way and they're trying to make it within 3 hours in the next decade.. maybe the Americans are still trying to beat the train system of USSR?Are you implying that Montreal-Toronto/Montreal-NYC have comparable passenger demand, which would make upgrading the tracks on the latter an economically wise/feasible decision?

we've done it several times....i agree....it has gone downhill.

lovely ride, but when the bathrooms are GROSS, filthy and stinky, and the crew in the lounge make snide remarks about people of different ethnic backgrounds and count the days, minutes and hours til retirement, I too agree that something must give.

beats driving though...i just wish they'd improve somehow. the thing was close to full every time......

Another option is taking the Ethan Allen Express to Rutland and renting a car to drive the rest of the way to Canada.

I wouldn't hesitiate to transfer miles from Continental. I love sleeper service.

While not a perfect solution or improvement, this train within the past month or so was supposed to receive some Amfleet II long distance coaches. These are the type of coach used for the overnight services that provide greater seat pitch and both a foot and calf rest. It's still 2 & 2 seating, but it is much better than the corridor Amfleet coaches.

Note: You only get the better coach if you are going to Montreal. If you're riding a shorter distance, then you'll still see the regular corridor coaches, as Amtrak only has enough of the better coaches to put 2 on each train.

As for business class, my understanding remains that US Customs has shot that idea down. They like the idea of having a full cafe car to carry out their inspections.

I wish the Canadian can take over Amtrak on this route.. most of the track north of Albany is owned by Canadians.. and Via Rail is just much more comfort than our Amtrak.

While not a perfect solution or improvement, this train within the past month or so was supposed to receive some Amfleet II long distance coaches. These are the type of coach used for the overnight services that provide greater seat pitch and both a foot and calf rest. It's still 2 & 2 seating, but it is much better than the corridor Amfleet coaches.

Note: You only get the better coach if you are going to Montreal. If you're riding a shorter distance, then you'll still see the regular corridor coaches, as Amtrak only has enough of the better coaches to put 2 on each train.

As for business class, my understanding remains that US Customs has shot that idea down. They like the idea of having a full cafe car to carry out their inspections.

We did have the seats with the foot and calf rests. And yes, US Customs was making good use of the cafe car.

Going up, the temperature in the car was almost unbearably cold. Coming back, it was like a sauna.

I didn't complain going up, but another couple we met from another car had. Their car went from freezing to sauna when the conductor turned off the A/C. When they complained about the sauna, the conductor told them they had a choice... too cold or too hot... there was only two settings.

When I complained on the way back, I was told the conductor had pushed the reset button for the A/C a few times, and that was all. No "I'm sorry for the inconvenience."

While the NEC is not the smoothest ride, I was amazed at just how bad the vibration and swaying of the car was. It made working on my laptop almost impossible.

I was surprised that, for an 11 hour trip, the food service/selection was not upgraded beyond what you get on the NEC "commuter" route. Didn't even have decaf coffee available on the way up.

We were told on the way up that the frequent stops between stations were due to the fact that there were no safety signals over portions of the route and that the engineer would get authorization by radio to progress a certain distance, and then he had to stop until he was authorized for the next increment. On the way back, we were told that some of the stops were so that the conductors could go ahead of the train to change the track switches. Then the train would advance and they would have to stop and change the switch back.

So, yes, if you try to set your mind back a number of decades, perhaps it all fits.

We took ViaRail from RT from Montreal to Quebec, and the difference was like night and day. One has to wonder about the impression that this sorry Amtrak service leaves with Canadians coming to the States.

Ironically, the book I brought to read was "Atlas Shrugged" which was written in the 50's and one of the protagonists owns a (collapsing) railroad.

I know that on the NEC, there are cleaners en-route. I take it such a thing doesn't exist on the the Adirondack?

Being the only train in the Amtrak system that takes double-digit hours to traverse its route and yet still has just coach seating, the Adirondack's service is uniquely lackluster, on top of the routine delays.

By coach only, do you mean lacking a business class car or no sleeper/diner? The Carolinian runs New York to Charlotte in just over 13 hours and the Palmetto does New York-Savannah in almost 15 hours, but they have business class.

By coach only, do you mean lacking a business class car or no sleeper/diner? The Carolinian runs New York to Charlotte in just over 13 hours and the Palmetto does New York-Savannah in almost 15 hours, but they have business class.

No business class. No sleepers (but it's not an overnight train). Standard NEC cafe car.

By coach only, do you mean lacking a business class car or no sleeper/diner? I'm confused. What else could coach only mean?

I know that on the NEC, there are cleaners en-route. I take it such a thing doesn't exist on the the Adirondack?

No, that's an expiremental program on the NEC implimented by Emmett Fremaux VP of Marketing and Product Management. So far the program exists only on the NEC to my knowledge.

I have taken plenty of Amtrak trains- mostly around the Northeast (both NE Corridor and elsewhere) but also in Oregon, Wisconsin, North Carolina and more (such as Boston to Birmingham, NYC-Charlotte) and more.

The Adirondack is the SLOWEST train I have ever taken. The average speed is probably around the top speed of the NYC subway, at best. It is not a typical Amtrak train. Plus the equipment seemed old.

Don't write off Amtrak just because of the Adirondack. Other trains are much faster and have better service (business class, etc.). The long distance trains are really nice- the Viewliner sleeping cars are great, and the Coast Starlight was gorgeous.

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i rode the train twice in the last few years.. both with unbearable bathrooms.. it smells worst than those portable johns.. it really feels like a third world and i doubt female passengers would sit on those dirty/smelly toilets.. best advise is to wait for the stops at Albany and Plattsburg NY to go to the station bathroom.

The Adirondack is the SLOWEST train I have ever taken. The average speed is probably around the top speed of the NYC subway, at best. It is not a typical Amtrak train. Plus the equipment seemed old.

Again, avoid the Vermonter again. I've had it take 7 hours to go from WRJ, VT to Hartford, CT (I was supposed to go to New Haven that day, but bailed at Hartford since the train was running so late). I'd write it off as a one-off, but every time I've ridden that train it was several hours behind schedule. Nothing like taking 7+ hours to do a drive that takes just a couple of hours...

For the sake of completeness, I'll go ahead and post this. Last year I actually took the time to calculate the average speed of every route Amtrak runs, according to the current timetable at the time (Spring/Summer '08). The Vermonter, when compared to some of the other services, isn't as slow (timetable-wise: again, this doesn't take delays into account) as one might think, but the Adirondack does pull up the rear, that's for sure.

Note that the speeds listed (especially for the Acela) are much lower than the top speeds the trains reach during their runs. These are AVERAGE speeds, including dwell time at station stops (except where noted):


Adirondack: 34 MPH
Lake Shore Limited Boston Stub: 36 MPH
Cardinal (Culpeper-CHI only; essentially not counting high speed NEC and NS trackage): 37 MPH
NEC (New Haven-Springfield): 37 MPH
Texas Eagle (entire run CHI-LAX, including long SAS layover): 39 MPH
Coast Starlight: 39 MPH
Vermonter (St. Albans-NYP ONLY): 39 MPH
Cascades (Vancouver-Seattle): 40 MPH
Cardinal: 40 MPH
Wolverine: 40 MPH
Blue Water: 40 MPH
Texas Eagle (CHI-San Antonio only): 40 MPH
NEC Overnight: 41 MPH
Sunset Limited (NOL-LAX): 41 MPH
Maple Leaf (counting customs layover): 42 MPH
Capitol Corridor (Oakland-Auburn): 42 MPH
Capitol Corridor (San Jose-Sacramento): 43 MPH
Capitol Limited: 43 MPH
Pere Marquette: 44 MPH
California Zephyr: 45 MPH
Ethan Allen Express: 45 MPH
NEC (Newport News-Richmond): 45 MPH
NEC (Washington-Newport News): 46 MPH
Pennsylvanian: 46 MPH
Silver Star: 46 MPH
Crescent: 47 MPH
City of New Orleans: 47 MPH
Texas Eagle (San Antonio to LAX only): 47 MPH
Hoosier State: 48 MPH
Downeaster: 48 MPH
Empire Builder (CHI-SEA): 48 MPH
Pacific Surfliner (San Diego-LAX): 48 MPH
Empire Builder (CHI-PDX): 49 MPH
Heartland Flyer: 49 MPH
Auto Train: 49 MPH
Vermonter (entire run): 49 MPH
Cascades (SEA-Eugene): 50 MPH
San Joaquins (Oakland-Bakersfield): 50 MPH
Silver Meteor: 50 MPH
Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI): 50 MPH
Ann Rutledge: 50 MPH
Empire Service (NYP-Niagara Falls): 51 MPH
Southwest Chief: 52 MPH
Average NEC Regional (BOS-NPN): 52 MPH
Carolinian: 54 MPH
San Joaquins (Sacramento-Bakersfield): 54 MPH
Palmetto: 56 MPH
Average NEC Regional (BOS-WAS): 58 MPH
Hiawatha: 58 MPH
Empire Service (NYP-ALB): 60 mph
Keystone: 63 MPH
Lincoln Service: 66 MPH
Average Acela (BOS-WAS): 69 MPH

Rafi

For the sake of completeness, I'll go ahead and post this. Last year I actually took the time to calculate the average speed of every route Amtrak runs, according to the current timetable at the time (Spring/Summer '08).

Bravo for the research... We are an undeveloped country in Train Speed term.
We need someone like Sir Richard Branson to revamp the Amtrak system or else let sovereign wealth funds invest in Amtrak..

For the sake of completeness, I'll go ahead and post this. Last year I actually took the time to calculate the average speed of every route Amtrak runs, according to the current timetable at the time (Spring/Summer '08). The Vermonter, when compared to some of the other services, isn't as slow (timetable-wise: again, this doesn't take delays into account) as one might think, but the Adirondack does pull up the rear, that's for sure.


I wish we had access to decent delay statistics (Edit: we do have basic statistics at http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/Page/OTP_Route_List&cid=1202243059386 Apparently the Vermonter is doing much better since my last trip in November '07). The folks over at the White River Junction, VT station do like to frequently mention that the Vermonter and Sunset Limited constantly duke it out to see which one is the most-delayed train in the Amtrak system...

Again, avoid the Vermonter again.

Why the attack?

I have taken the Vermonter and thought that it was faster than the Adirondack, which the research above shows.

The NARP website also has info about train speeds on certain corridors- unfortunately have generally declined since the 1950s, except on the Northeast Corridor.

Average Acela (BOS-WAS): 69 MPH


That's slower than the traffic on I-95. :D

That's slower than the traffic on I-95. :DDo you understand the concept of average? :p

Do you understand the concept of average? :p

I was talking average (with only a slight exaggeration) :)

That's slower than the traffic on I-95. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdMzvaihRZw

Only if you're happy to break the law the whole way (which, admittedly, most people, including me, are!).

As for me, I'll still relax on the train and arrive into WUS refreshed rather than battle the traffic and side streets. So what if I get there 15 minutes later--I'm happier! (Not to mention he would have won if the producers had bought a ticket leaving at a better time...)

I wish the Canadian can take over Amtrak on this route.. most of the track north of Albany is owned by Canadians.. and Via Rail is just much more comfort than our Amtrak.

Are you kidding? The Canadians are free to run their own train to New York, but don't. But if they "took over" the route, you would have zero trains, as they do not even contribute to Amtrak's service. So, even their side of the operation is funded by US residents.

The Adirondack is a scenic route, perhaps the best on Amtrak east of the Rockies. It's slow, and there are the inefficient customs delays. Knowing that, and adjusting for it, it can be a decent trip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdMzvaihRZw

Only if you're happy to break the law the whole way (which, admittedly, most people, including me, are!).

As for me, I'll still relax on the train and arrive into WUS refreshed rather than battle the traffic and side streets. So what if I get there 15 minutes later--I'm happier! (Not to mention he would have won if the producers had bought a ticket leaving at a better time...)

No... I'll remove the tongue from my cheek and agree that I prefer to ride the train and get some work done along the way.

Other drivers look at me oddly when they see me working on my laptop as I drive (tongue back in cheek)

"The main thing is to improve the track and rehab it, so that trains going up there can go 79 miles an hour," said Carol Breen, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Transportation.

The Adirondack passenger train runs daily from New York City to Montreal and makes Essex County stops in Ticonderoga, Port Henry, Westport and sometimes Port Kent, according to Amtrak's Web site. Currently, the average speed on the route is 30 mph including all stops, Breen said. The trip takes 10 hours now, with eight of those hours between Albany and Montreal.

Breen said the improvements would save time, but that there were no estimates as to how much.

http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/508257.html?nav=5008

"The main thing is to improve the track and rehab it, so that trains going up there can go 79 miles an hour," said Carol Breen, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Transportation.

The Adirondack passenger train runs daily from New York City to Montreal and makes Essex County stops in Ticonderoga, Port Henry, Westport and sometimes Port Kent, according to Amtrak's Web site. Currently, the average speed on the route is 30 mph including all stops, Breen said. The trip takes 10 hours now, with eight of those hours between Albany and Montreal.

Breen said the improvements would save time, but that there were no estimates as to how much.

http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/508257.html?nav=5008What sort of ridership levels do they anticipate on this route to warrant the track upgrades?

What sort of ridership levels do they anticipate on this route to warrant the track upgrades?

Last year saw a bit over 112,000 riders on the Adirondack, but that includes people who only rode south of Albany. If they could knock a hour off the run time, that would probably help a bit, as would getting more long distance coaches on this train. It's also not helpful that they can't fill more than 2 coaches with passengers crossing the border.

And speaking of the border, that's part of what makes the time keeping on this train so bad, as there is about 2 hours of padding in the schedule just to deal with customs. That's something that the article failed to account for when they did their calculations.

This problem however could be solved if they go ahead with a plan currently under consideration that would see the train rerouted to Lucien L'Allier instead of Gare Centrale. If that plan goes through, Customs would be shifted to the train station instead of being done at the border. That would enable Amtrak to adjust the schedules and remove all that padding currently added for customs.

This problem however could be solved if they go ahead with a plan currently under consideration that would see the train rerouted to Lucien L'Allier instead of Gare Centrale. If that plan goes through, Customs would be shifted to the train station instead of being done at the border. That would enable Amtrak to adjust the schedules and remove all that padding currently added for customs.

I'm not too familiar with the Montreal train stations. What is there to prevent customs from happening at Gare Centrale? (Obviously the intermediate stop at St. Lambert would have to be discontinued, but surely that's not the only factor)

Secondly, would the Customs check at Luicien L'Allier include a pre-clearance check for U-S bound passengers?

I'm not too familiar with the Montreal train stations. What is there to prevent customs from happening at Gare Centrale? (Obviously the intermediate stop at St. Lambert would have to be discontinued, but surely that's not the only factor)

Secondly, would the Customs check at Luicien L'Allier include a pre-clearance check for U-S bound passengers?

I believe, but I'm far from positive, that the issue is that Gare Centrale is simply too busy and too small to allow them to setup a fenced off platform for customs use. I also think that the route to Luicien is faster with better track.

And pre-clearance is part of the plan being talked about. Of course that also requires cooperation from US Customs.

Amtrak started running its "Great Dome" car, which has an upper level with windows on all sides and overhead, on its Adirondack Route from Albany to Montreal on Oct. 1. It will run until Nov. 10, north on Thursdays, Saturdays and Mondays and south on Fridays, Sundays and Tuesdays. All passengers are welcome in the car, and seating is on a first-come, first-served basis.

http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/509012.html?nav=5017