Las Vegas - Wynn/Encore Upfront Comp Play Requirements

I have an upcoming trip to Encore, RFB in a resort room. This is based on past play (maybe 8-10 trips) at approximately $275/hand on BJ, Roulette, Craps.

I will not be taking my normal bankroll and am somewhat concerned about being "charged" at the end of my trip. I probably only have a bankroll to sustain one 4 hour session at $75 per hand and 4 additional 4 hour sessions at $25 per hand on blackjack.

I have heard "rumors" of people having their RFB pulled at trip end or mid trip due to NO PLAY, but never heard of this happening with low play.

For obvious reasons I don't want to simply ask a host this question.

Has anyone had any experience or read anywhere about a similar situation?

Most likely scenario is that you won't be comped on your next stay. About the only time I've heard of being charged is if you no show during a very busy time, or run up a huge FB bill without playing at all.

If your situation is temporary, call your host after the trip, tell him/her that you needed to do some "entertaining" with friends and that impacted your play. Let them know that you'll be back to your normal play on the next trip out. That should save your comp account. If he/she decides to screw you over, use this as an opportunity to start over fresh somewhere else.

Be sure to call or email your host afterward. 8-10 trips should get you some goodwill.

I would say, that they will probably not cover the 'usual' amount of F&B under your RFB. While I'm not particularly familiar with Wynncore RFB, a lot has to do with the amount of 'host interaction' with regard to removing/covering charges before settling your folio. In order for low/no play to work properly, you need to be @ a property that has a rather 'automated' system with regard to 'killing' charges before they hit your room folio. For example, at Harrah's Atlantic City, as long as you dine at the restaurants/bars covered by your LFB/RFB the charges automatically disappear and never hit your folio, except for tips. (a host doesn't have to get involved in 'covering' and/or removing charges)

Also, with regard to 'low' play, you might be better off just starting off playing at your 'regular level' since putting in the hours as you suggest @ $75 and $25 average bet instead of $275 is not going to allow you to use any excuses for why you didn't play enough (i.e. I didn't feel well, wasn't feeling lucky etc. etc.); instead you host is going to just see someone who spent 4+ hours a day gaming at a much reduced level. Me thinks, that gives a host a 'perfect' opportunity to apologize for not comping your F&B at the 'usual' level due to the reduced play for this visit.

While properties can't (or seldom will) take back free rooms/suites, marketing $, marketing credits to your account, RFB tends to be subjective, and with good reason. On the other end, this can also work to your advantage, when you have higher than normal F&B charges, but a host decides to cover the extra due to your consistent play as a loyal customer.

Good Luck!

thanks for the responses guys.

I have stayed 3 previous trips under RFB and had some large play with minimal comp usage (ie. been severly undercomped) on two trips, as well as being overcomped one trip.

I have also had significant "courtesy play" (as they call it) and losses at Wynn while staying off property which i have been told plays into the formula.

I had actually assumed my RFB was gone after a previous overcomped stay, but my host said that I had "plenty of leftover comps" from the courtesy play visits and prior undercomped trips.

Of course they have also told me comps don't carry over so who knows.

I may try to throw another $5K on my gambling budget so I can give at least a taste of normal play up front and continue if things go well---as suggested by baccarrat king. If I lose straight away it'll be obvious what happen, right? haha.

You don't state on this trip how long your stay will be.

What is your bankroll for the trip? or at least what was your bankroll for a 275 avg? and what is your bankroll for this trip for 4 hrs @ 75 and 4 hrs @ 25.

You don't state on this trip how long your stay will be.

What is your bankroll for the trip? or at least what was your bankroll for a 275 avg? and what is your bankroll for this trip for 4 hrs @ 75 and 4 hrs @ 25.

3 nights total stay in a resort room

total bankrol $7,500

4 hr session @ $75 bet, session bankroll $3,000
4 hr session @ $25 bet, session bankroll $1,000 times 4

previous bankrolls

4 hr session @ $275 bet, session bankroll $10,000

You don't state on this trip how long your stay will be.

What is your bankroll for the trip? or at least what was your bankroll for a 275 avg? and what is your bankroll for this trip for 4 hrs @ 75 and 4 hrs @ 25.

any advice from those with past experience, regardless of their bankrolls matching up, or betting pattern matching up would be appreciated.

my primary interest is in ANY person with ACTUAL experience, or who may have read on the forums of anyone with RFB experience at Wynn/Encore.

I would try and start out at $100/hand instead of $75 and bump it to $200 on occasion. This should at least get you rated high enough ($125/hand) to keep the room comp going. If you hit a bad run early then take a long break and you can then play the "not feeling lucky" card.

any advice from those with past experience, regardless of their bankrolls matching up, or betting pattern matching up would be appreciated.

my primary interest is in ANY person with ACTUAL experience, or who may have read on the forums of anyone with RFB experience at Wynn/Encore.

Comps as science vs art

Science

3 nights in a resort room on a weekday is about 120 per night

3 nights in a resort room on a weekend is maybe 180 per night.

FB can vary greatly depending on whether you are eating at Alex or Red 8, so I am going to take that out of the equation.

You have to think whether or not you should be trying to play for comps if you have that limited bankroll.

Since most people are talking about per hand, then I'll do very rough back of the envelope calculations by hand.

Using optimistic numbers.
$225 per hand. 80 hands an hour. 4 hours a day. = 72,000
expected loss of .5% = 360 dollars
Give you a comp of 1/3 of that amount $120.

So you are looking at $225 per hand for 4 hours a day to start looking at a Wynn resort room.

Art
Where are you in your comp cycle? A casino will over comp you earlier in the curve to entice you and keep your play. A casino will try to get you to increase your play and betting levels and give you the same level of comps. The Wynn is more old school in terms of comps. They are not the MGM / Harrah's this is what the computer says.

All that being said. It used to be at the Wynn that you needed to be at $225 / hand to get a room. I don't know how this number has changed with the slowdown in the Vegas economy.

Your ROR for BJ at least is quite high for your session bankroll. Maybe 30%.

All that being said. It used to be at the Wynn that you needed to be at $225 / hand to get a room. I don't know how this number has changed with the slowdown in the Vegas economy.

I think you can get a resort room with as low as a $150 average for 4 hours a day. I managed to get one with a $180 on my first trip there. They will however nickle and dime you on the hours at that range.

Anyhow, sorry Beeejay for not having any personal experience to offer. I do agree with baccarat_king that it's probably better to have a high average for less hours than a low average for more hours (even though stretching your bankroll limits is not a good idea). Another alternative or additionally, if your play is low, take it easy on the F&B (order a less expensive bottle of wine?)

I think you can get a resort room with as low as a $150 average for 4 hours a day. I managed to get one with a $180 on my first trip there. They will however nickle and dime you on the hours at that range.

Anyhow, sorry Beeejay for not having any personal experience to offer. I do agree with baccarat_king that it's probably better to have a high average for less hours than a low average for more hours (even though stretching your bankroll limits is not a good idea). Another alternative or additionally, if your play is low, take it easy on the F&B (order a less expensive bottle of wine?)

seconded. If you are in the 150 - 199 range, I have known hosts to be more persnickety about avg per hand and time played when asking for comps

seconded. If you are in the 150 - 199 range, I have known hosts to be more persnickety about avg per hand and time played when asking for comps

I'd also say that you are getting upfront comps of a room now are for 3 - 4 free nights for Sunday - Thursday rooms vs. the weekend at a 150 dollar Avg bet range.

I'd also say that you are getting upfront comps of a room now are for 3 - 4 free nights for Sunday - Thursday rooms vs. the weekend at a 150 dollar Avg bet range.

In my experience, there's really no difference whether it's the weekend or the weekday. I believe that the casino rate is the same as well. At least at the Wynn/Encore.

I have a question for all the experts here: does it matter what games you play?
I play pai-gow poker and sometimes blackjack. Do they comp the same whether you play 4 hours on pai-gow poker or blackjack (assuming $100 per hand)?

I have a question for all the experts here: does it matter what games you play?
I play pai-gow poker and sometimes blackjack. Do they comp the same whether you play 4 hours on pai-gow poker or blackjack (assuming $100 per hand)?

Yes it makes a difference. It's all about EV or expected value or with the house edge expected loss.

The longer you play...the more you should lose in terms of the laws of very very big numbers and averages.

PaiGow IN GENERAL (IF YOU ONLY BANK) has a lower house edge than blackjack. PaiGow also has less hands played per hour so you are not cycling as much money through the casino in a given amount of time. And since the house edge is lower then the comps will be lower.

If you don't just bank, then the combined edge is around 1.2% according to the Wizard of Odds.

from before:

"Using optimistic numbers.
$225 per hand. 80 hands an hour. 4 hours a day. = 72,000
expected loss of .5% = 360 dollars
Give you a comp of 1/3 of that amount $120.

So you are looking at $225 per hand for 4 hours a day to start looking at a Wynn resort room."

PaiGow IN GENERAL has a lower house edge than blackjack. PaiGow also has less hands played per hour so you are not cycling as much money through the casino in a given amount of time. And since the house edge is lower then the comps will be lower.



I think Pai Gow Poker has a higher house edge, around 3% with the commission vs ~0.5% for average BJ rules.

I'm blocked from Wizard of Odds to double check those percentages.

if you only bank...then it should be < .20%...but that was my assumption which was not clearly stated. Apologies.

From WoO:

"If the player were to use the Optimal single house way against the Trump Plaza house way then the house edge as the banker would be -0.19% and as the player would be 2.60%, for an average of 1.20%."

So I guess it depends on how you play. I should have not assumed just banker.

--

Still even with 1.2% PaiGow edge, you've got to think that Paigow is going to be < 40 hands an hour.

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On the Strip, BJ house edge ranges from .19 to 1.9% depending on the property, game, and minimum.

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So it's a toss up unless you give us more data on how you play and where you play.

:)

I don't mean to take this thread to far off track, but can a single player bank every hand in Pai Gow, or even every other hand in Vegas?

For some reason I thought the Banker Button moved around the table, so someone playing a single hand could only bank every 12th hand. I seems that due to the low house advantage they would limit how often you were allowed to bank.

#1 I'm not sure about Vegas, because its a slow game and I'm not there to slow game in Vegas, but in general I think if you are going heads up that you can bank every other hand.

#2 You could jump in and out for a little bit if one or two other players are playing to get more bank opportunities.

#3 Its not my game. Its only there if I've got a long time to wait for everyone else to finish gaming

I've heard people say that it does make a difference in the type of game you play. But I'm not so sure how much difference there is. You may be able to benefit more from "discretionary comps" if you play a game with higher house edge. But at the end of the day I think you're still dealing with $ avg/hand + hours (of course games like Roulette and Baccarat are calculated differently than BJ)

A lot of people play multiple games in any given trip with different averages. say you played 10 hours of Pai Gow at $100 average, 10 hours of BJ at $100 average, and 20 hours playing four card poker at $200 average. A simple calculation would be a $150 average. Will hosts really care that you played 20 hours of four card poker in addition to the 20 hours at a lower hose edge game rather than a guy who simply played 40 hours at Pai gow? Would a host care that you played BJ (a much faster paced game) at $200 average rather than $230 at Pai Gow (a much slower paced game)? It makes sense that it makes a difference, but I'm thinking that it is after you meet a certain threshold (and after you have established a history) that the game you play(that is based on $ avg/hand) start to matter.

Yes, different games have different comp rates. And even within a game they can rate you "hard" or "soft" and give you a different comp rate. PGP has one of the lowest comp rates.

QL

Yes, different games have different comp rates. And even within a game they can rate you "hard" or "soft" and give you a different comp rate. PGP has one of the lowest comp rates.

QL

That's intersting. Can you give an example of how you can be rated "hard" or "soft" within a game? I suppose if you make more proposition bets you get rated hard or something?

That's intersting. Can you give an example of how you can be rated "hard" or "soft" within a game? I suppose if you make more proposition bets you get rated hard or something?

Hey mikeef, you thinkin' what I'm thinkin'? ;) OK, I won't go there :D

Here's what I was told by the head-honcho host @ the Venetian, about craps ratings there:
There are two different ways craps is rated. If you're playing mostly pass/don't pass, or come bets with odds, you're a "soft" player. The formula used to calculate comps takes into account the lower house edge of those bets.

If you play the other bets (place/buy, field, hardways, etc.), you're a "hard" player. Your comps will be based on another formula.

And by "formula" I simply mean the EVL from which comps derived.

Some personal data:
- Playing at the MGM properties, I was told the odds are not rated. I played pass/come bets with full odds, constantly, with some tips thrown in for measure. My average bet was rated anywhere from $225-285/hr, which is more than I actually bet (that is, if all points are loaded, my pass line plus all come bets, using quarters, would only come out to 6x25 for the come bets on the points, 1x25 for the pass line bet, and 1x25 for the come bet which will replace a number that hits. That's a $200 bet. But all numbers aren't filled most of the time, and my average bet is decidedly lower. Pit bosses have been rating me higher, boosting my average bet amount or the time played. Result? RFB.

- Playing at the Venetian/Palazzo, where they count my odds, using the same method of playing, I was rated at $475/hr. This covered a Rialto suite, and 300 bucks in food. Not RFB.


So anyway, yeah, even though they're counting odds at the Venetian/Palazzo, you need a higher average bet/length of play. I believe BaccaratKing has mentioned this several times, and uses $250 for most table games, and $350 for craps, for RFB. I certainly didn't get RFB, and if you calculate what my average bet was for each night I stayed, it'd be $430/hr. Perhas the Rialto suite was the limiting factor?

Hope this has been informative.

Ah, one more thing: the host also said that they use different formulas/EVL for different games. $250/hr at blackjack isn't the same as it is on roulette, etc.

This is only for the Venetian/Palazzo. Not sure what other places do.

So anyway, yeah, even though they're counting odds at the Venetian/Palazzo, you need a higher average bet/length of play. I believe BaccaratKing has mentioned this several times, and uses $250 for most table games, and $350 for craps, for RFB. I certainly didn't get RFB, and if you calculate what my average bet was for each night I stayed, it'd be $430/hr. Perhas the Rialto suite was the limiting factor?

Hope this has been informative.

Thanks for the info gentlemanloser. How many trips have you been playing at that average at the Venetian? My experience is that it often takes several trips to fully establish yourself at the place where they start bringing you in RFB. So it's possible that you simply need more trips playing at that average or like you said, the Rialto suite is probably a limiting factor. Maybe you can ask if you can get RFB staying at the regular resort suite.

That was my first time out. It was actually surprising. I called ahead of time, and left a message for casino marketing. Then fifty billion hosts started calling me, e-mailing me, etc. Finally settled on one who spoke sensibly and was very patient with my questions.

She comped a Rialto suite up front for me, bumped me up to Gold card status on my arrival, etc. Looking back, I'm sure the Rialto is what sucked away some of my comps, and I'm sure that had I not gambled anything at all I'd have been stuck with the tab.

I'm currently booked under a mailed offer, and in speaking with the marketing person, I was told that it's not dependant upon maintain my historical level of play (despite what it says on the mailer). If I don't gamble, though, it will affect future offers.

Anyway, I saw your blog somehow-- it was linked somewhere, but now I can't find it. I've enjoyed reading it! Looks like you're pretty well versed in the areas of high living.

I'm currently booked under a mailed offer, and in speaking with the marketing person, I was told that it's not dependant upon maintain my historical level of play (despite what it says on the mailer). If I don't gamble, though, it will affect future offers.

Venetian mailed offers are based on historical play though you don't have to play a lot to get them. If you play table games you'll get the standard free nights and free credits. If you play slots/VP, you'll get invited to tournaments. And if you play both you'll get both types of offers. The more you play however, the more offers you will receive.

Yes, different games have different comp rates. And even within a game they can rate you "hard" or "soft" and give you a different comp rate. PGP has one of the lowest comp rates.

QL

That's intersting. Can you give an example of how you can be rated "hard" or "soft" within a game? I suppose if you make more proposition bets you get rated hard or something?

Yeah, the prop bets will help you feel more love with regard to your rating.

Just make sure you also throw in a number of 'hopping bets!' --- they also love those... and don't forget, the 'hopping buffalo,' among other prop bets. ;)

Here's what I was told by the head-honcho host @ the Venetian, about craps ratings there:
There are two different ways craps is rated. If you're playing mostly pass/don't pass, or come bets with odds, you're a "soft" player.

Venetian is notorious for this. I've even heard from players there that they consider 6/8 place to be "soft".


So anyway, yeah, even though they're counting odds at the Venetian/Palazzo, you need a higher average bet/length of play. I believe BaccaratKing has mentioned this several times, and uses $250 for most table games, and $350 for craps, for RFB. I certainly didn't get RFB, and if you calculate what my average bet was for each night I stayed, it'd be $430/hr. Perhas the Rialto suite was the limiting factor?

It could be; I didn't start getting suite RFBs at Bellagio until I started getting north of $500 avg. But assuming a Rialto is similar to a Bellagio Suite (as I understand the square footage is about the same), $430 avg seems way too much just for a suite comp IMO. I wouldn't be too happy about that.

Yeah, the prop bets will help you feel more love with regard to your rating.

Just make sure you also throw in a number of 'hopping bets!' --- they also love those... and don't forget, the 'hopping buffalo,' among other prop bets. ;)

I never thought about that. I wonder if the same principle applies to other games such such as three card poker and putting more money on the "bonus."

Yeah, the prop bets will help you feel more love with regard to your rating.

Just make sure you also throw in a number of 'hopping bets!' --- they also love those... and don't forget, the 'hopping buffalo,' among other prop bets. ;)

Know what "Hopping bets" are but never heard of the "Hopping buffalo". Can someone explain that?

Know what "Hopping bets" are but never heard of the "Hopping buffalo". Can someone explain that?

IIRC, a buffalo is a bet on all the hardways and the Any 7. A Buffalo Yo, is a bet on each of the hardways and an 11.

I presume a Hopping Buffalo is a one time bet for one of the aforementioned combinations.

IIRC, a buffalo is a bet on all the hardways and the Any 7. A Buffalo Yo, is a bet on each of the hardways and an 11.

I presume a Hopping Buffalo is a one time bet for one of the aforementioned combinations.


I think BK may have invented that one. It is not even listed in the Craps Dictionary (http://www.worldcasinodirectory.com/crapsdictionary.htm). :)

I think BK may have invented that one. It is not even listed in the Craps Dictionary (http://www.worldcasinodirectory.com/crapsdictionary.htm). :)

From your link, I see "Buffalo – A buffalo is a craps bet on each one of the Hardways as well as Any Seven. "

So I would guess that a "hopping buffalo" would be a bet that the very next roll is going to be any seven or any hardways.

I thought you can make up your own bets in Craps. As long as they say "bet" :p

I don't recommend believing anything a casino host tells you...they are misinformed about many things and make up answers for others.

You've got "hard" and "soft" backwards. A soft rating means they think you're a fish.

Place bets on the 6 and 8 are as "hard" as pass/come/don't bets if odds are not counted.

BK, I wish you'd stop blabbing to the world about secret plays like the hopping buffalo.

QL