Gaming Loyalty Programs - Why You Should Never Ever Set Foot In An Indian Casino

One of my recent favorite gambling books is Beat The Players by Las Vegas attorney Bob Nersesian, whose schtick is suing Nevada casinos that have committed outrageous torts against patrons. I recently heard of an incident that happened at a California Indian casino that is similar to many of the incidents in Nersesian's book:

A casino player is 86ed from the casino and told not to come back. The casino's marketing department nonetheless sends him mailers inviting him back, which legally vitiates the ban. But the hapless player is dragged from his slot machine, is carried into the back room, roughed up, his winning slot tickets confiscated. He is then turned over to the real cops who arrest him for trespassing.

In any other place except an Indian casino, the patron might have a good lawsuit for false arrest, false imprisonment, battery, conversion, etc. Or he might lose in court. But Indian tribes, and their commercial operations including casinos, are sovereign entities under the law. They can't be sued, except in their own tribal courts. They regulate their own games, and the state gaming commission cannot inspect them. If an Indian casino security guard were to unholster his weapon and shoot you dead, while he might possibly be subject to prosecution by the authorities, you still wouldn't be able to sue.

The U.S. Supreme Court has opined that Indian tribal sovereign immunity is an accident of legal precedent, not unlike organized baseball's antitrust exemption, but it will be up to Congress to overturn it. Of course, the vast amount of money that the tribes contribute to political campaigns ensures this will never happen.

Good to know. ^

When I first learned of tribal casinos in the late 1980s, I understood that they could exist because tribes were sovereign 'nations within a nation' under treaties of the 1800s. I later heard that somehow a compromise was reached with State govt.s to allow state gaming commissions to regulate (but not forbid) tribal casinos.

Does anyone (perhaps a lawyer) have more complete info on their legal status--then or now?

IAAL; and I have completely drilled down into the laws, tribal compacts, and legal precedents. The state gaming commission, at least in CA, has absolutely no authority to inspect the games at an Indian casino. Only the tribal gaming commission does.

And if something like this happened, most customers would never come to the casinos again, which would put them out of business.

So this scenario is no more realistic for an Indian casino than it is for a state regulated casino.

Why would you assume that the tribal gaming commission any more corrupt than the state gaming commission?

http://www.thebeargrowls.com/?p=415


Bear Praise for Oklahoma Supreme Court’s ruling on tribal sovereignty
By LVBear | July 10, 2009




In this news article, Court rules casino lawsuits can be heard in state courts, Choctaw counsel Bob Rabon is quoted: “I’ve been representing Indian tribes for 40 years, and this is probably the single most difficult blow for tribal sovereignty that I have ever seen in my career.” This is great to know. Perhaps it is a step towards dismantling the “tribal sovereignty” system that has been such a failure.

Tribes operate big casinos that plunder their surrounding communities, generating most of their money from non-tribal members. Patron disputes and allegations of wrongdoing are ignored by the casino-controlled “tribal gaming commissions.” Victims of casino wrongdoing are expected to file complaints in the local tribal kangaroo court system. Local non-tribal law enforcement agencies, though they often have jurisdiction over felonies committed on tribal land, are reluctant to arrest casino employees who commit violent crimes against patrons, often citing the stupidity of ”tribal sovereignty” as a reason for their refusal to do their duty. “Tribal sovereignty” has been a dismal failure and should be ended. This court case may be the beginning of the end of “tribal sovereignty.” I hope so

http://www.thebeargrowls.com/?p=415

I would not welcome the end of "tribal sovereignty" as I think that is a small step towards redressing an historical wrong.

However, if there is violence of any kind occurring where tribal casino employees/actors are victimizing patrons, or for that matter, other kinds of crimes like extortion, robbery, etc., and tribal authorities are neglecting their responsibilities to put a stop to that, then I welcome imposition of US/state oversight. And I see that as no different than what happens when, for example, US citizens are abused by foreign authorities, such as those reporters in North Korea - i.e., just because state is sovereign doesn't absolve US authorities of responsibility to respond if Americans are abused while in that foreign jurisdiction.

However, if there is violence of any kind occurring where tribal casino employees/actors are victimizing patrons, or for that matter, other kinds of crimes like extortion, robbery, etc., and tribal authorities are neglecting their responsibilities to put a stop to that, then I welcome imposition of US/state oversight. And I see that as no different than what happens when, for example, US citizens are abused by foreign authorities, such as those reporters in North Korea - i.e., just because state is sovereign doesn't absolve US authorities of responsibility to respond if Americans are abused while in that foreign jurisdiction.

Sovereignty means nothing if an outside authority can tell you what to do. In that case the outside authority is the sovereign. You really can't have it both ways. Either tribes can have sovereign territory, and all it entails, or they can't.

Sovereignty means nothing if an outside authority can tell you what to do. In that case the outside authority is the sovereign. You really can't have it both ways. Either tribes can have sovereign territory, and all it entails, or they can't.
Sovereignty isn't an all or nothing concept. You can have partial (US state governments are a good example. The US federal government doesn't have direct control over many of their activities). Which is I think how the US views them. The US federal government has overall control over the tribes but they are not subject to US state government control. Think of them as mini-Washington DCs as an imperfect analogue.

Sovereignty isn't an all or nothing concept. You can have partial (US state governments are a good example. The US federal government doesn't have direct control over many of their activities). Which is I think how the US views them. The US federal government has overall control over the tribes but they are not subject to US state government control. Think of them as mini-Washington DCs as an imperfect analogue.

In my view sovereignty is an all or nothing concept. You can't be semi-sovereign if, when push comes to shove, another entity controls you. And such is the case with the tribal areas. They're sovereign in name only.

I'd suggest that if you have tendencies to get 86d from Indian casinos, you probably ought to stay out of ALL casinos. I've played Indian casinos all throughout the northwest and the only reason I've seen players booted is for either ridiculous or illegal behavior.

Good point, Blenz (named after the Seattle/ Vancouver coffee shops ; )?)
However, this OP is all about someone who was 86'd then invited back--by Marketing without Security's permission! It's a case of the right hand not knowing what the left is doing :o !

If an Indian casino security guard were to unholster his weapon and shoot you dead, while he might possibly be subject to prosecution by the authorities, you still wouldn't be able to sue.



This is also true in Vegas.

This is also true in Vegas.

I don't think so - you could file suit using the same strategy used by Rodney King - recall that the jury in state court acquitted the LAPD but that a federal court later found them guilty of civil rights violations. You couldn't do that if the jurisdiction was a completely sovereign jurisdiction.

I'd suggest that if you have tendencies to get 86d from Indian casinos, you probably ought to stay out of ALL casinos. I've played Indian casinos all throughout the northwest and the only reason I've seen players booted is for either ridiculous or illegal behavior.

I count cards, quietly and legally in all the 50 states. I have been asked not to play Blackjack at a few places and told not to enter certain other properties on pain of tresspass arrest, but all politely with no violations of my person or rights. At Fantasy Springs in Indio, CA (an Indian casino) I was forced by security into a back room, held in a jail cell with hands against the wall, while my pockets were emptied and my wallet gone through. A casino employee told me that the reason was that I was a "skilled player" and they wanted to teach me a lesson. You are oblivious to the realities of the situation. None of the other customers saw a thing as I was steered into the cell by six secutiry goons.

I count cards, quietly and legally in all the 50 states. I have been asked not to play Blackjack at a few places and told not to enter certain other properties on pain of tresspass arrest, but all politely with no violations of my person or rights. At Fantasy Springs in Indio, CA (an Indian casino) I was forced by security into a back room, held in a jail cell with hands against the wall, while my pockets were emptied and my wallet gone through. A casino employee told me that the reason was that I was a "skilled player" and they wanted to teach me a lesson. You are oblivious to the realities of the situation. None of the other customers saw a thing as I was steered into the cell by six secutiry goons.

Did you sue or talk to the California AG?

QL

I don't think so - you could file suit using the same strategy used by Rodney King - recall that the jury in state court acquitted the LAPD but that a federal court later found them guilty of civil rights violations. You couldn't do that if the jurisdiction was a completely sovereign jurisdiction.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no way that you could sue in Vegas (or anywhere else) under the circumstances outlined by the OP.

Did you sue or talk to the California AG?

QL
No, one lawsuit like that and my name would be blasted to every casino in the country. As crimes on reservations can be prosecuted by the Feds, I could have talked to them, but generally they would think this to be a bit of a small issue. I was not roughed up and was "only detained" for about an hour.
As I generally make more from Blackjack in a year than many folks make at their regular job, a lawsuit would be counter productive. I do know pros that sued and recovered, but they often play under aliases, which is not an option for me due to my profession.

The Obama administration may make it easier for Indian tribes to build casinos on land far from their reservations, a move likely to spur a wave of new casino development.

The Interior Department, which runs the Bureau of Indian Affairs, is reconsidering a Bush administration directive requiring that off-reservation casino sites be within commuting distance of the reservation. Many tribes, struggling with high unemployment and poverty on their reservations, are looking to casinos for jobs and other economic benefits.

"It's an important issue. It's a controversial issue and they're rethinking it," George Skibine, a deputy assistant secretary at the bureau, said in an interview last week. He added he expected a decision on whether to change the policy "fairly soon."

Some governors, including Democrat David Paterson of New York and Republican Arnold Schwarzenegger of California, have come out in favor of certain projects in recent months.

A reversal would pose more competition to existing casinos that are getting pummeled by the economic downturn. Owners of some of those casinos and their supporters in Congress are putting pressure on the Interior Department to maintain the restrictions on new developments off tribal lands. But have-not tribes are hoping the Obama administration will view casino development as a cheap way to stimulate the economy without tax dollars...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125349029322126449.html

Re: the bolded part, I was not aware that Indian tribes were allowed to build and run casinos off-reservation. So then the question becomes, if the soil on which the casino lies is US territory, then the dilemma posed by the OP would be moot, correct? Or no?

In today's Star News of Wilmington NC ( starnewsonline.com ) there's an editorial against legalized gambling in general in NC. It mentions that the State Govt. has given "authority" to the Cherokee Tribe to operate a casino in the Smoky Mountains & implies that it (or are they talking about another casino?) is jointly owned by Harrah's!

But from the above, Native Tribes don't need State permission/ authority--at least on-reservation!

In today's Star News of Wilmington NC ( starnewsonline.com ) there's an editorial against legalized gambling in general in NC. It mentions that the State Govt. has given "authority" to the Cherokee Tribe to operate a casino in the Smoky Mountains & implies that it (or are they talking about another casino?) is jointly owned by Harrah's!

But from the above, Native Tribes don't need State permission/ authority--at least on-reservation!

On a slightly PR note, there is something very wrong about our government when people have basically surrendered to the idea that moneyed special interests (not citizens) may lobby the government to advance their commercial interests at the expense of Americans, and that this is normal/good.

At Fantasy Springs in Indio, CA (an Indian casino) I was forced by security into a back room, held in a jail cell with hands against the wall, while my pockets were emptied and my wallet gone through. A casino employee told me that the reason was that I was a "skilled player" and they wanted to teach me a lesson. You are oblivious to the realities of the situation. None of the other customers saw a thing as I was steered into the cell by six secutiry goons.

Wow ORDflyer, I hope you tell this story often to as many people as you can. I was a Marketing Director at two different casinos in the upper Midwest and I can you we were careful to treat our guests with great respect, recognizing and rewarding them for their loyalty & patronage. That treatment you received seems way out of line and I hope you did seek counsel and shared your story with the local press.