WestJet "Passenger Perks" - WS Beating Up on Small, Aboriginal-owned Airline

Not content just to try and drive the Evil Empire of AC from the skies, WS seems intent on doing the same to Canadian North:

..With WestJet offering daily flights aboard 136-seat Boeing 737s, “there's too much seat capacity in the market and the ticket prices are unrealistic,” Ms. Medve said, asserting that while Canadian North continues to fly to remote communities, WestJet is “cherry-picking our biggest market.”

About 75,000 people live in the Nunavut and the Northwest Territories, including 20,000 in Yellowknife, the NWT capital.

The Edmonton-Yellowknife route has been a profitable one traditionally for Canadian North, allowing it to effectively subsidize trips to less-populated places, such as Nunavut's capital of Iqaluit.

“We're there to provide ongoing transportation service to the whole North,” said Ms. Medve, who obtained her law degree in 1981 from the University of Saskatchewan. “You're not going to see WestJet flying to Rankin Inlet. You're not going to see them flying to Cambridge Bay, which has a gravel runway.”


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/westjet-fares-worry-aboriginal-owned-airline/article1180400/

I wonder what the loads on this route have been like on WJ so far, and what the predictions are for the rest of the season.

From the above link:

"Canadian North also competes on the route against Air Canada Jazz and First Air"

That is a lot of capacity for such a small market.....

Canadian North has made a string of bad decisions since they were split from Canadian more than 10 years ago as they tried to expand and offer a network comparable to First Air. Their fleet and route planning has been a complete disaster. Partly because they are so inefficient, their fares are 4 to 5 times what you would expect to pay to fly a similar distance in the south. And although the news story seems to claim that it would be a terrible hardship in the north if they went under, I know of only one town (Norman Wells) that they serve in the north that First Air does not offer similar competing service to, and I'd be willing to wager that if Canadian North did cease flying, First Air would be flying to Norman Wells the next day.

Sorry, but it's time the north got some decent competition. The people of Yellowknife deserve flights to the south for under $1000 return.

Partly because they are so inefficient, their fares are 4 to 5 times what you would expect to pay to fly a similar distance in the south.

That has always been the case with northern airfares.

A few people and lots of freight northbound. A few people and lots of empty pallets southbound.

Cargo Cargo Cargo...

A huge portion of the revenue to these smaller places in NWT/YT is cargo. If WS are offering decent cargo rates, it really doesn't matter how many passengers are up top.

canadian north and first air booth fly combi 737s. Their main revenue stream is air cargo. The passenger business is just a side game for them. I applaud westjet for expanding in the north. I cant wait for them to start serving YFB-YOW. I would be overjoyed to see westjet break up the 7f 5t strangle hold they have on Iqaluit. How can the 2 airlines justify a $1900 fare for a 3 hour flight between ottawa nad iqaluit.

canadian north and first air booth fly combi 737s. Their main revenue stream is air cargo. The passenger business is just a side game for them. I applaud westjet for expanding in the north. I cant wait for them to start serving YFB-YOW. I would be overjoyed to see westjet break up the 7f 5t strangle hold they have on Iqaluit. How can the 2 airlines justify a $1900 fare for a 3 hour flight between ottawa nad iqaluit.

LOL, WS in Iqaluit. They couldn't make a go of Windsor, you'll never see them in Iqaluit.

No worries to the natives.
They will just get some of the kin to block a bridge or a road in protest of government inequality. Of course this affects probably a large percentage of the working general public and pisses people off to the point where the plight of the native protest is lost and they are detested.

As usual the government caves and buys them their own airline and funds it for the next 20 years.

My point...... it don't matter which airline is flying up north, the natives are still getting free flights and the taxpayers are flippin the bill.

LOL, WS in Iqaluit. They couldn't make a go of Windsor, you'll never see them in Iqaluit.

Like ErrorCanada is making so much money in its so-called 'world-wide' operations....:rolleyes:

I notice Canadian North is undercutting BOTH AC and WJ on YYC-YEG these days.

Competition is good, but only when they feel like competing!! I guess they want it both ways which strikes me as being a bit hypocritical!

Not sure how true it is but I have been told WS loads on these flights average around 40 people. If that is true they won't be continuing the flights
past the summer.

I'm so sick of aboriginals complaining that white people are stealing their stuff. It's called business. Capatalism. Fight to earn your customers, if you lose them to a competitor, your fault! Pisses me off more than anything.

Not sure how true it is but I have been told WS loads on these flights average around 40 people. If that is true they won't be continuing the flights
past the summer.

Yikes! But it is not summer vacation for most families yet either. I hope once July rolls around, those numbers will change!

From the above link:

"Canadian North also competes on the route against Air Canada Jazz and First Air"

That is a lot of capacity for such a small market.....

Thanks for noting the obvious, AB, so it seems AC is also beating up on small, Aboriginal-owned airline. But then again the obvious often escapes the OP.

WS won't last in the North.

WS won't last in the North.

...why not?

Not sure how true it is but I have been told WS loads on these flights average around 40 people. If that is true they won't be continuing the flights
past the summer.

I flew in and out of YZF a couple of weeks ago, and I would say the above was accurate. The Monday flight in landed shortly before my AC one, and I would say there were maybe 30-40 people in baggage claim, and counting out the window, I would say about 35 boarded the return to YEG (airstairs used, so you can see people walking across the tarmac). On the Thursday afternoon, load heading out looked a touch heavier, maybe 50. Overall, not the best loads. I was quite surprised to see WS flying their 136 seat 700 instead of the 120 seat 600 with the small loads.

On a semi-related note, my 5T flight had only a handful of empty seats, and we got a full meal service! When the FA asked "chicken or salmon" I was so shocked, I didn't know what to do!

well 5t seems to have lower prices and they offer a meal. What is the seating capacity on a 737-200?

Usually a 737-200 has 120Y seats. There will be less if there are cargo containers in front cabin.

IIRC, 5T had 12 rows of seats on their 200, so 72 or so....First row behind the cargo bulkhead was 7, last row was 18 or 19.

well 5t seems to have lower prices and they offer a meal. What is the seating capacity on a 737-200?

Oh dear! Lower prices and higher costs!!! I think we've seen this movie before and we know how it ends!!

I think WJ is only in Yellowknife for the summer, just like they are only in Palm Springs for the winter!

:)

IIRC, 5T had 12 rows of seats on their 200, so 72 or so....First row behind the cargo bulkhead was 7, last row was 18 or 19.

Anyone know why they use the 5T short form? I've been curious for the last little while..

Thanks for noting the obvious, AB, so it seems AC is also beating up on small, Aboriginal-owned airline. But then again the obvious often escapes the OP.


This is partially true. AC came in and lowered fares significantly two summers ago (return $880 pre AC, ~$450 post AC in the market).

The major difference between AC and WS in YZF so far is that AC announced year-round service and have actually had winter flights direct YVR-YZF to bolster the tourism industry with convenient connections for Japanese tourists coming for the northern lights. While peple welcome the lower fares, they are smart enough to realize that what WS has offered is not sustainable for any carrier on a year-round long-term basis.

Unless an announcement is coming soon, WS will be out of the market after skimming off the low-cost summer traffic from 5T, 7F and AC. Operating in this market in the winter time is not for the faint of heart. AC has learned this first hand with CRJ mechanicals from the cold, along with having to cancel for days on end when the core temperature stays below -40 degrees.

On the whole, I agree with many of the others that 5T / 7F have not done much to help themselves. They do offer great meal service, free wine, seat pitch, FA-passenger ratio, etc. Unfortunately, they're operating fuel hungry and maintenance heavy aircraft that are about 30 years old. Not to mention that they have been charging crazy amounts for 90 minute flights. If YYZ-YWG was $900 return on the best available fare year-round, people would go crazy!

In a market with just 20,000 people (about 50,000 in the entire Western Arctic including Western Nunavut), the number seats per day is far too many. Pre-WS, it was nothing to have 5T/7F have an average load factor of about 40% (with only 75 seats on average per flight on 5T, a few more on 7F). Now there are 2-3 flights per day on each of AC, 5T and 7F, plus a daily WS 737-700 added to the mix.

I hear WS are doing fairly well so far in comparison with the others and are able to charge a premium for flying here, so they don't need to fill all the seats. I don't expect year-round service, but with all the aircraft being delivered and the current downturn in the economy, they will possibly be back next summer again.

...why not?

Working in the North is not easy.

...a daily WS 737-700 added to the mix.

I hear WS are doing fairly well so far in comparison with the others and are able to charge a premium for flying here, so they don't need to fill all the seats. I don't expect year-round service, but with all the aircraft being delivered and the current downturn in the economy, they will possibly be back next summer again.

I just had a look at loads between YEG and YZF over the last few days and I would have to disagree with your forcast. Also, it appears that a -600 series is being used, at least on the days I looked at the loads.

Working in the North is not easy.

I'm sure WS can afford some parkas and de-icer...

But in seriousness additional seats on national carriers are always a good thing for the North. Any increases to accessibility and tourism are positive... Bringing the prices down and making it easier for the rest of Canada (or foreigners) to get here is good.

I just had a look at loads between YEG and YZF over the last few days and I would have to disagree with your forcast. Also, it appears that a -600 series is being used, at least on the days I looked at the loads.

What have the loads been over the last few days? They were flying the -700 for the first few weeks, I guess they've downgraded.

IIRC, 5T had 12 rows of seats on their 200, so 72 or so....First row behind the cargo bulkhead was 7, last row was 18 or 19.

5T aircraft can hold 112 or 114 depending on the plane used. If they are carrying main deck cargo depending on the amount of pallets it could go down to 76/60/24/6

I have heard there are plans to get some 737-300's

Would this help with the fuel guzzling?

I have heard there are plans to get some 737-300's

Would this help with the fuel guzzling?


They were to be used primarily on their charters for oil companies. they have been put on hold till next year.

I have heard there are plans to get some 737-300's

Would this help with the fuel guzzling?

A bit, but not a lot. Most airlines have already parked their 737-200s, and are trying to park their 737-300s, -400s, and -500s.

Not content just to try and drive the Evil Empire of AC from the skies, WS seems intent on doing the same to Canadian North:

..With WestJet offering daily flights aboard 136-seat Boeing 737s, “there's too much seat capacity in the market and the ticket prices are unrealistic,” Ms. Medve said, asserting that while Canadian North continues to fly to remote communities, WestJet is “cherry-picking our biggest market.”

About 75,000 people live in the Nunavut and the Northwest Territories, including 20,000 in Yellowknife, the NWT capital.

The Edmonton-Yellowknife route has been a profitable one traditionally for Canadian North, allowing it to effectively subsidize trips to less-populated places, such as Nunavut's capital of Iqaluit.

“We're there to provide ongoing transportation service to the whole North,” said Ms. Medve, who obtained her law degree in 1981 from the University of Saskatchewan. “You're not going to see WestJet flying to Rankin Inlet. You're not going to see them flying to Cambridge Bay, which has a gravel runway.”


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/westjet-fares-worry-aboriginal-owned-airline/article1180400/

Why should Canadian North be entitled to make a profit on the route any more than WestJet. If WestJet has been using the route to subsidize the less populated routes, then that would be a mistake. An airline is not a charity.

And here we go....

WestJet today announced it will expand its daily,
non-stop service between Edmonton and Yellowknife from seasonal to year-round
as of November 1, 2009.
"The expansion of this service from seasonal to year-round is a strategic
decision that demonstrates our commitment to serving this route," said Chris
Avery, WestJet's Vice-President, Revenue and Planning. "As we'd hoped, the
service has proven to be popular and thousands of guests from both regions are
taking advantage of our market-leading fares, convenient connections to our
66-city network and world-class guest experience."
Following are the schedule details of WestJet's new year-round non-stop
daily service between Edmonton and Yellowknife, starting November 1, 2009.
(This service has been operating on a seasonal basis since May.)

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/July2009/08/c4732.html

I'm so sick of aboriginals complaining that white people are stealing their stuff. It's called business. Capatalism. Fight to earn your customers, if you lose them to a competitor, your fault! Pisses me off more than anything.

I'm sorry, perhaps you were reading a different article but I don't see anywhere in this article where aboriginals were "complaining that white people are stealing their stuff." The headline of the article, as well as this thread, indicated factually the ownership of Canadian North. But I don't see anyone attempting to make this a racial issue, except you and a small handful of other posters.

This same "established high price carrier versus new budget carrier" tussle has played out in numerous markets around the world, so it's somewhat disingenuous to play this off as an aboriginal vs whites issue.

One thing I really respect Canadian North for is the amount of money they put into the communities in the North, especially Yellowknife and Inuvik. They are a community builder and have an enormous presence. But the general population doesn't look at it that way. Instead, it's the cheapest flight in or out of town that matters. If 5T goes down, Yellowknife will definitely take notice and the city will be worse off because of it. WS and AC will continue to fly in and out if it makes sense and they will not put an extra cent into the community.

With that said...I fly AC in and out of YZF. :o Corporate policy, don't ya know.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/northern-carriers-make-plea-to-buy-local/article1242963/

The governments of the Northwest Territories, Nunavut and Yukon are being urged by northern carriers to adopt a "buy local" policy when booking flights for passengers and cargo. "This is just good business and certainly not charity," Northern Air Transport Association president Joseph Sparling said in a three-page letter to NWT Premier Floyd Roland, Nunavut Premier Eva Aariak and Yukon Premier Dennis Fentie. Mr. Sparling, a co-founder of Whitehorse-based Air North, said WestJet Airlines Ltd. and Air Canada are seeking to "displace northern carriers from the market." The association's members include Air North, Canadian North and First Air. Mr. Sparling said it's unfair for Ottawa to supply loans to Air Canada, and he criticized WestJet for declining to enter partnerships with northern carriers, many of which have "significant aboriginal ownership." Mr. Sparling said he worries that Air Canada and WestJet have too much clout, alleging that "irrational" fares are "putting the viability of northern airlines at risk."

Canadian North blinks first:

Northern airline Canadian North announced Thursday it is cancelling and scaling back some of its routes, in part because a saturated market in Yellowknife.

http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2009/09/24/cdn-north-cuts.html