Hilton HHonors - Room incursion

I am staying at a high-end hilton property in Europe. Two nights ago, upon returning to our room after an evening with friends, we noticed that the air conditioning had been shut off, which was annoying as I had set it quite low when we left. After turning all the lights on, we saw that we had not received the regular turn-down service, which was odd.

My partner decided to make us nightcaps and went to get a tonic water out of the six-pack I had bought that afternoon. The package had been opened and a bottle had gone missing, but neither of us had done it. Upon inspection, the blind had been drawn down, but the curtains were still open, our drawers had been rifled through, but nothing of note, other than a bottle of tonic water, had been taken.

Yesterday, security read the door lock and told me that they need to continue their investigation over the course of the next two days, as the two employees who had entered our room during our absence were on differing shifts. There are also cameras in the hallways but none pointing towards our door that we can see. We are here till Sunday.

This is very off-putting. If it was an attempted burgalry, why was nothing of value taken? Of course, the computer & passports were locked in the safe. If it was industrial espionage then why steal a tonic water and leave clues that you had been there? If it was an employee, why risk your job for a warm, refreshing drink? I suspect that the employee was fooled into thinking someone else was me, and was asked to let the person in and skip the turndown service.

Finally, for this forum, what sort of anger should I be feeling towards Hilton? I am upset that their investigation is taking so long. I don't see how I can bother the police, as the only crime is b&e (and perhaps not even that if they were let in), no theft of any import.

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

...This is very off-putting...

To put it extremely mildly. You are being way, way too kind.

First, I'd say that I want to speak with the GM if you haven't already. Insist on this, as this merits going to the top, not working your way up. And you now have the added issue of the investigation being prolonged. Demand to change rooms immediately. (And, though I'm not sure, you might have had the right to report this directly to the police, whether or not anything was taken.)

Staying in a couple of thousand hotel rooms over the years, I've had this happen a few times with variations on the theme. I always hang the "Do Not Disturb" sign when I first enter the room. I consider this to be inviolable, unless there is a commonly-defined emergency. It's not key to your situation, just upping the ante.

Net-net? I've gotten a free dinner for two or ~5,000 HH or GP points.

And know that there is a security camera that watches your area.

Finally, good you are asking here, as the hotel knows better than you their responsibility in the matter, and it's likely that others on this board do, too.

I concur...after hundreds of stays at different hotels- domestic and overseas, I’m very security conscious now....Next time this occurs, bypass hotel security and call the local police, (or threaten to call if nothing was stolen), and let the GM know your room was broken into. Then you will see the hotel management jump through hoops. They don’t want any other guest there getting nervous, very bad PR if any police are at the hotel! ...No matter what, change rooms immediately, even now if you are still there. I don't know where you are, but most major cities have at least 2 good hotels; change if you are still uncomfortable. While overseas, at higher end hotels a few times, between meetings or working from my laptop in the room, I was amazed at the people coming and going in my room...housekeepers, water guy, service bar checker, managers to check if that was done, etc...They all have room key-card access. I too, put a Do-Not-Disturb sign on my room anytime I do not want them around. I often put the TV and light on too. I'm not a believer in evening turn-down service unless I'm there and want the free candy, but will call housekeeping if I need towels etc. Most hotel staffers are law abiding citizens, even if if most are not from that country the hotel is in. However, always secure any temptations that you value. The less minimum salary housekeepers/hotel workers are in my room, the better I feel. While on the road, no one is watching over you except you. Good luck!

Maybe 2 employees or 1 employee and a friend decided to use your room for a quickie. After they are done, they were thirsty so they went thru your stuff to look for a drink and found the bottle of water which they took.

Tried to speak with the GM, but got the operations manager instead. They are interviewing a staff member in a few minutes and will call me. They didn't want to check the cctv for a 6 hour period, but when I reminded them that the door lock told them when the person entered the room, so they could fast forward through an hour or so and see what happened. Tomorrow, I shall demand to see the GM and let them know that he will meet me, or me and the local police. Fortunately, I have a friend who is a cop here.

I'm not a believer in evening turn-down service unless I'm there and want the free candy, but will call housekeeping if I need towels etc.
Best advice yet!

Ok, its a long shot, but...

Was the water out on an open table with your other stuff in the closet? Could the front desk have mistakenly checked someone else into your room and they went up their, opened a water and then realized they were already in an occupied room?

I'm only asking because that has happened to me. I've checked into a room, the desk clerk has transposed the room number, activated the wrong key, and I've gone to a room that was occupied. The occupants were not there and the room had already been serviced, so I didn't know until I opened the closet and found someone else's stuff.

The opposite has also happened to me. I've been in the room working late at night when suddenly the door opened and someone was standing there with a suitcase. This actually only happened once because I now have a standard practice of using the do not disturb sign and the deadbolt whenever I enter a room.

Ok, its a long shot, but...

Was the water out on an open table with your other stuff in the closet? Could the front desk have mistakenly checked someone else into your room and they went up their, opened a water and then realized they were already in an occupied room?
In that scenario, in most hotels the OP's keycards would no longer have worked--they would have ceased to function in the room door as soon as the new guest used their (mistakenly issued) key.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8310/4.2.2 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

No, it would have been obvious that the room was occupied. The room does have that key system and pur keys still worked.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8310/4.2.2 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

Update: spoke with the GM. He is taking this seriously, supposedly, and I will be hearing from the head of security today.

I believe you are being handled. Suffice to say that you deserve another face-to-face with the GM, and not just the security guy. I must admit that my cynicism is driven by this anecdote...

When our son was born, my in-laws came to Boston from California. While it was a sudden call, it took days for him to be born. After a few days, they both contracted what turned out to be Salmonella. They only ate at the hospital. Be that as it may. I suggested that the hospital's investigation would take a day longer than they were in Boston. My father-in-law - who was second in charge of a hospital in Santa Rosa, CA (and the Boston hospital knew that when we reported their illness) - said he was sure of it. We were right.

I do acknowledge that investigations can take a while.

This is just so serious, and face to face with the GM is mandatory on a regular basis until this is resolved (your time allowing). Which hotel was this? I would also email a letter or fax a letter to the Regional Director so that action is stat. I would also have called the police, as this would ensure maximum prompt action by the hotel, as they would not want publicity over this. I would not keep quiet about this, and would expect major compensation. Henry.

Sorry I am not as alarmed as others. If you had anything of value that could have been taken but wasn't that pretty strongly shows it wasn't an attempted burglary. And the bottom line is you lost nothing. The tonic water thing is a little odd i agree but net net if this is the biggest problem you have today you are having a good day.

I have found the "Do Not Disturb" sign will often only get you a day of no entrance to the room- hotels, in particular high end ones- want to get in the room to confirm you are not pulling a Spinal Tap.

I’m sure a manager was in your room (like the earlier comment!) having a quickie with another staffer, had your tonic water and wanted to shut the blinds…. and is trying to minimize this…or maybe you forgot you had a tonic with gin before you hit the bars and wanted to have another nightcap upon return but you were too blasted and forgot about the earlier one you had to get primed up!

I agree you can’t put the Do Not Disturb sign on your door 24/7 because the hotel staff will think you are a Craig’s List killer or something and just having it on for evening/early morning hours is more realistic. As for the blinds and temperature change in your room, well that happens a lot if a hotel wants to regulate or conserve energy.... However, if my belongings were “rifled” through as you say, I would be alarmed. The time to complain loudly would have been right after you discovered it. You had everything secured and nothing was stolen. Obviously the GM could care less about an “investigation”. If you’re paying, I would think that would deserve a free night. If your company is paying get some points. Move on.

I agree you can’t put the Do Not Disturb sign on your door 24/7 because the hotel staff will think you are a Craig’s List killer or something and just having it on for evening/early morning hours is more realistic.

What??? I hope you forgot some smileys in your post. It's not uncommon for me to leave the do not disturb sign on, especially if I am at a location for no longer than 2-3 days. For one thing, if I am working, it is not unusual for me to work at night and sleep during the day. Secondly, if I am changing many time zones, my hours may not correspond to local times for cleaning, etc. And finally, if I am not having my towels and sheets changed daily, then the housekeepers are only there to vacuum and throw out the trash... I don't need this every single day.

As for the blinds and temperature change in your room, well that happens a lot if a hotel wants to regulate or conserve energy....

Huh??? I've never stayed in a chain hotel that adjusts my thermostat outside of when the maids come by during regular hours. And I've even found it pretty infrequent for them to change it even during these circumstances.

This thread was started as a security concern of a traveler in a foreign country and I outlined in an earlier comment what I would do. I try to inject a little humor when I write even if I don’t attach smiley faces! Of course I put the Do-Not-Disturb when I’m around (or not) and don’t want entrance, day or night....because as you said, sleeping working, time differences, etc However, if you think a sign will keep all staffers out of your room on LONG TERM stays if that’s signs up 24/7, you are not an experienced traveler. They periodically want to check if you are ok and more importantly to them, if the room is ok. Usually they will call 1st and then knock.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8310/4.2.2 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

I’m sure a manager was in your room (like the earlier comment!) having a quickie with another staffer, had your tonic water and wanted to shut the blinds…. and is trying to minimize this…or maybe you forgot you had a tonic with gin before you hit the bars and wanted to have another nightcap upon return but you were too blasted and forgot about the earlier one you had to get primed up!

I agree you can’t put the Do Not Disturb sign on your door 24/7 because the hotel staff will think you are a Craig’s List killer or something and just having it on for evening/early morning hours is more realistic. As for the blinds and temperature change in your room, well that happens a lot if a hotel wants to regulate or conserve energy.... However, if my belongings were “rifled” through as you say, I would be alarmed. The time to complain loudly would have been right after you discovered it. You had everything secured and nothing was stolen. Obviously the GM could care less about an “investigation”. If you’re paying, I would think that would deserve a free night. If your company is paying get some points. Move on.

Nice helpful post.

Derek,

You are being very calm about this... that is to be commended.

Any updates?

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8310/4.2.2 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

The head of security said that he went through the cctv tapes for the entire period of our absence. Other than staff, 24 people went up or down our corridor, 12 of whom were obviously dragging luggage to or from their rooms. He saw nothing out of the ordinary. I suspect that the chambermaid used her key to let someone into the room in exchange for cash. That will never be determined though as they fired her. The case is not resolved, but they have exhausted their investigation. I am unhappy, more with how the hotel communicated with me and that when we reported the incident, immediately after we knew something had happened Monday night, we weren't offered a new room.

I'm not big on compensation; I'd rather they just tell me that a problem has been resolved, but an opology letter seems to be in order.

However, if you think a sign will keep all staffers out of your room on LONG TERM stays if that’s signs up 24/7, you are not an experienced traveler. They periodically want to check if you are ok and more importantly to them, if the room is ok. Usually they will call 1st and then knock.

In this modern age, most hotels rooms are equipped with electronic locks reporting to a centralized computer system. The hotel can EASILY monitor the door activity of the room, as the lock will validate key swipes each time it is used.

I routinely do two things on checkin:

Advise the front desk that I am declining housekeeping unless specifically requested by me
On arrival at the room, activate whatever form of DND is available (some have lights, some have signs)


I have only had those two steps not work once - at one of the hotels at USMC Camp Butler in Okinawa. Per base regulation, MWR facilities are required to enter the room once every 72 hours to perform a health/safety check. They leave a note indicating the time/date of entry, but will otherwise comply with the no housekeeping/DND requests.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8310/4.2.2 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

...That will never be determined though as they fired her. The case is not resolved...

...we weren't offered a new room...

1) The case is probably resolved. (To their purposes.)

2) My read is that they are doing as much as you demand...

3) See #1, unless you push it further.

maybe 2 employees or 1 employee and a friend decided to use your room for a quickie. After they are done, they were thirsty so they went thru your stuff to look for a drink and found the bottle of water which they took.

yuck!!! Don't sit on the bed!!!

Question-

I usually travel solo, and do put out the Do Not Disturb sign unless am in need of new towels. At night, not only do I set the deadbolt, but put a doorstop under the door. (always carry one after a scary incident in a high end hotel)

What I would like is something I can attach that will tell me if my room has been entered when I am gone. I use the safe, hide any bigger valuables, and enter my room with caution. But- maybe something I could attach to the inside of my door that, if the code isn't put in within one minute of opening, will shriek?

Hmmm, off to the Spy Store, I guess.

OP- you have been very calm and polite. HOWEVER- make sure the incentive is there to prevent this from happening again. I am not big on "what do I get out of it" people, but you deserve something on this one. They violated your privacy. (and water)

Question-

I usually travel solo, and do put out the Do Not Disturb sign unless am in need of new towels. At night, not only do I set the deadbolt, but put a doorstop under the door. (always carry one after a scary incident in a high end hotel)

What I would like is something I can attach that will tell me if my room has been entered when I am gone. I use the safe, hide any bigger valuables, and enter my room with caution. But- maybe something I could attach to the inside of my door that, if the code isn't put in within one minute of opening, will shriek?

Hmmm, off to the Spy Store, I guess.

OP- you have been very calm and polite. HOWEVER- make sure the incentive is there to prevent this from happening again. I am not big on "what do I get out of it" people, but you deserve something on this one. They violated your privacy. (and water)

Just carry scotch tape with you.. and stick a price between the top of the door and the jamb when you leave (on the outside). If the tape is broken/removed when you get back, someone entered. Else all is well.

Huh??? I've never stayed in a chain hotel that adjusts my thermostat outside of when the maids come by during regular hours. And I've even found it pretty infrequent for them to change it even during these circumstances.

The Hilton Americas Houston has installed motion detectors in each room. If it does not detect movement over some period, the thermostat jumps to 80ish degrees F.

I found it quite annoying when trying to sleep as I like it COLD (sub 66 if possible). Guess I am more still than the average bear (when sleeping).

[QUOTE=Princess1;11641986]Question-

I usually travel solo, and do put out the Do Not Disturb sign unless am in need of new towels. At night, not only do I set the deadbolt, but put a doorstop under the door. (always carry one after a scary incident in a high end hotel)

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Princess1…nice post…I like the portable doorstop, simple but highly effective!

DevilDog438! When I make universal statements, I should expect exceptions, such as you said, notifying housekeeping. I do enjoy daily room service….we just have to be aware of unsecured temptations. However, I’ve forgotten (left behind) so much more then was stolen from me over the years. Semper fi Devil Dog, but remember, “Rangers lead the way!”

Derek! You are a hotel guest, not a guest of a friend. The difference is a good friend will always be there for you, but hotels will smile at you yet really do not care. Hotels see you as income 1st and a pain in the a## (PIA) 2nd. (I know another universal statement as there are tons of exceptions). Sometimes you have to be that PIA for real to get what you deserve. If you are indeed staying at a higher end European hotel, (frequently over $200 USD/night), for a long term stay, that Hilton is getting a huge income that you could have easily taken to the hotel down the street. They can’t make all of their guests happy, but they have to make most happy to stay alive. In Vegas terms you might not be a huge presidential suite “whale” but you are a steady high roller and a very valuable frequent customer. You have leverage and they should have kissed your PIA a little more! Good luck in your endeavors.

Maybe 2 employees or 1 employee and a friend decided to use your room for a quickie. After they are done, they were thirsty so they went thru your stuff to look for a drink and found the bottle of water which they took.

Good point! Did the OP check the sheets? :eek:

My experience: upon returning to my room at the LV Hilton, I noticed that every zipper on my luggage was opened. I immediately dug deep in an interior pocket to get the $300 cash I left there. It wasn't there. (yes, I know this was stupid, but wanted emergency $ in case I lost my money someplace else). I called security who quizzed ME as to where in the room I may have left my money. They looked under the TV (?) and everyplace else. They left rebuking me for loosing my money. Later I saw a maid who told me that lots of people were in and out of my room during the day. I called security about this. When I arrived home I wrote a letter to the GM and Hilton HQ. I got a nice letter from the GM apologizing, telling me that the maid had been fired and offering me a free suite for my next time. I took him up on the offer and enjoyed a nice 3-room suite a few months later. Nice to know the LV Hilton took action and made a gesture to gain my business back, notwithstanding that I should have not left $ in the room. BTW, The 3-room suite for 4 nights was worth much more than the $300 that was stolen from my room.

Sounds like the maid got sacraficed. Why was she fired if there were "lots of people" in and out of the room (other than she didn't report it)? Seems like security should verify the reported action by reviewing the tapes and key-log. If there were so many, they have bigger problems.

Let me clarify the story. The hotel determined that she was lying. There were no others besides her in the room during my absence. Apparently, she was questioned and it was determined that she was the thief. And she was fired. The hotel encouraged me to file a police report.

Sounds like the maid got sacraficed. Why was she fired if there were "lots of people" in and out of the room (other than she didn't report it)? Seems like security should verify the reported action by reviewing the tapes and key-log. If there were so many, they have bigger problems.

So what happened Derek? Did they offer you anything?

Interesting story and speculation about what happened. But, OP, why so coy about the identity of the hotel? Which hotel was it?

My experience: upon returning to my room at the LV Hilton

Ahh, there's your first problem... ;)

Mike

Interesting story and speculation about what happened. But, OP, why so coy about the identity of the hotel? Which hotel was it?

I prefer "discreet" over "coy". It was the Waldorf Hilton on Aldwych.

They offered me nothing. Not even a note from the GM when I checked out. The clerk upon check out did ask if everything was good with my stay, but didn't pursue my "not really, no...".

I shall be writing a letter when I am done traveling, in about a month's time unfortunately. I will address it to the GM but cc Hilton UK and Hilton -- if anyone can recommend who I should write to, I would appreciate it.

I prefer "discreet" over "coy". It was the Waldorf Hilton on Aldwych.

They offered me nothing. Not even a note from the GM when I checked out. The clerk upon check out did ask if everything was good with my stay, but didn't pursue my "not really, no...".

I shall be writing a letter when I am done traveling, in about a month's time unfortunately. I will address it to the GM but cc Hilton UK and Hilton -- if anyone can recommend who I should write to, I would appreciate it.

You should have followed the advice to call the police. That would have gotten the GM's attention. It's really too late to expect anything to happen after you check out.

In this modern age, most hotels rooms are equipped with electronic locks reporting to a centralized computer system. The hotel can EASILY monitor the door activity of the room, as the lock will validate key swipes each time it is used.If there is a connecting door, I've read in newspaper articles (which I have not verified) that staff may enter on a routine matter (e.g., restocking mini bar), unlock the connecting door, and at a later time or date enter via the connecting door. That way, the key lock doesn't record any entry at the time of a theft, so you look like you're making it up.

You should have followed the advice to call the police. That would have gotten the GM's attention. It's really too late to expect anything to happen after you check out.

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Long time voyeur, 1st time poster. I agree, REDSOX1 and others posted a few good tips, but you chose to avoid confrontation and not only did you stay in the same hotel....you continued to stay in the same room. :td:
I blame the victim.

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Long time voyeur, 1st time poster. I agree, REDSOX1 and others posted a few good tips, but you chose to avoid confrontation and not only did you stay in the same hotel....you continued to stay in the same room. :td:
I blame the victim.

Welcome to flyertalk. I think you could have held off a little longer for your first post ;)

I don't know why you want to blame the victim. I did not choose to avoid confrontation; as I said in earlier posts, I spoke with the GM, the security chief and ensured that they were taking the matter seriously. I did actually talk to the police, my best friend in London is a cop, and he made it quite clear that although it is unacceptable that this happened, it does happen all the time and usually a lot more things of value go missing. He urged me very strongly not to waste police time on the matter, as there is nothing they could do and technically, other than the theft of a 17p bottle of water, no crime was committed (there is no B&E on the statutes in the UK; and if a staff member was in the room or gave access to the room, then there was no trespass committed.

If there is a connecting door, I've read in newspaper articles (which I have not verified) that staff may enter on a routine matter (e.g., restocking mini bar), unlock the connecting door, and at a later time or date enter via the connecting door. That way, the key lock doesn't record any entry at the time of a theft, so you look like you're making it up.

Yet another reason why I carry two simple door wedges with me, and have an established habit for the times when I get a connecting room (assuming the hotel refuses my request to be moved):

One wedge under main door when I am in the room
One wedge under the connecting door from the time I arrive to the time I depart
Visual inspection of the connecting door wedge and locks EVERY time I enter/exit the room

I prefer "discreet" over "coy". It was the Waldorf Hilton on Aldwych.

They offered me nothing. Not even a note from the GM when I checked out. The clerk upon check out did ask if everything was good with my stay, but didn't pursue my "not really, no...".

I shall be writing a letter when I am done traveling, in about a month's time unfortunately. I will address it to the GM but cc Hilton UK and Hilton -- if anyone can recommend who I should write to, I would appreciate it.

Well this is very interesting to know, we stay there often and do find the service to be pretty poor most of the time. Numerous staff changes and new faces all the time. Service is not really 5*, and they tend to have lots of package tours staying at the lower end of budgets. Most in the executive lounge look as though they are at a buffet which will end in minutes.

However, we stay as its closest to the ROH. Cant say there has been one stay to date that didnt have a problem of some sort. But despite advice would have had a police report made. Looks as though a formal letter so late will do little. Henry.:(

I prefer "discreet" over "coy". It was the Waldorf Hilton on Aldwych.

They offered me nothing. Not even a note from the GM when I checked out. The clerk upon check out did ask if everything was good with my stay, but didn't pursue my "not really, no...".

I shall be writing a letter when I am done traveling, in about a month's time unfortunately. I will address it to the GM but cc Hilton UK and Hilton -- if anyone can recommend who I should write to, I would appreciate it.
--
Dear Waldorf GM,

Last month while staying at your "High-End" establishment, something mysterious happened in my hotel room. While your “investigation” left me unsatisfied, I look forward to seeing you again. Xxoo Derek.

About sums it up this story, like your fictitious Simpson quote: “A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man”.

--
Dear Waldorf GM,

Last month while staying at your "High-End" establishment, something mysterious happened in my hotel room. While your “investigation” left me unsatisfied, I look forward to seeing you again. Xxoo Derek.

About sums it up this story, like your fictitious Simpson quote: “A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man”.

That's 2 posts, and frankly, the only thing you've contributed in either one is to give the comfort that if my niece and nephew aren't available, I can look up your posts when I want to see the maturity of a 6th grader.

If this was an attempt to make the OP look foolish, well you've only succeeded in making yourself look so.

That's 2 posts, and frankly, the only thing you've contributed in either one is to give the comfort that if my niece and nephew aren't available, I can look up your posts when I want to see the maturity of a 6th grader.

If this was an attempt to make the OP look foolish, well you've only succeeded in making yourself look so.



You are right, I should be more mature, but that's not as fun. :D
This board is about information sharing which, in my own way, was to let him know, I would have done something different. Tell me, Bluefan, what would you have done if you were this guy?? Let us know.

I wil try to be more civil and positive in the future. ^

You are right, I should be more mature, but that's not as fun. :D
This board is about information sharing which, in my own way, was to let him know, I would have done something different. Tell me, Bluefan, what would you have done if you were this guy?? Let us know.

I wil try to be more civil and positive in the future. ^

I was going to send you a pm but now that it's been brought up in the forum, your posts have been at best poorly articulated and at worst, a bit rude. There are other forums that can get a bit hostile, but the Hhonors forum tends to be a bit more constructive and supportive. If you don't have anything nice to say... well, at least be helpful. And, for the record, my sig is not fictional. It is perfectly cromulent.

Welcome to FlyerTalk and the Hilton forum in particular, MikeNYC.I wil try to be more civil and positive in the future. ^Thank you.

Now let us please return to the topic: Room incursion

Regards,

Canarsie
Co-Moderator, Hilton forum

If there is a connecting door, I've read in newspaper articles (which I have not verified) that staff may enter on a routine matter (e.g., restocking mini bar), unlock the connecting door, and at a later time or date enter via the connecting door. That way, the key lock doesn't record any entry at the time of a theft, so you look like you're making it up.This misses the fact that in most modern hotel connector rooms, there are two doors comprising the connector. You have to open (not just unlock) the connector door on "your side" of the room, then go into the second room and open the connector door on "that side."

So even if an evil maid entered room 103 and unlocked (and opened!) its connector, she'd still have to enter room 105 later (captured on keycard log) and unlock and open THAT connector to access room 103. And then she'd have to "cover her tracks" by going back to room 103 after the fact to re-lock the connector door. This would all show up on keycard logs.

Most good hotel managers know about this and understand this scenario when loss of items in a room occurs.

Most hotel chains include "unauthorized access to a guest room" as a termination offense. "Unauthorized" essentially means entering a guest room for any reason, or at any time, other than in the official performance of your duties.

If a keycard log shows Jane entering room 103 at 11:30 AM, then room 105 at 12:00 PM, then room 103 again at 12:30 PM, and they're connectors...hotel management would be immediately suspicious.

Especially if the rooms hadn't been cleaned. :D :D :D

You are right, I should be more mature, but that's not as fun. :D
This board is about information sharing which, in my own way, was to let him know, I would have done something different. Tell me, Bluefan, what would you have done if you were this guy?? Let us know.

I wil try to be more civil and positive in the future. ^
(as enough comments been made I'll simply say my issue was with what you posted, not that you would have done differently, but we're all moving on.)

Before, or after, reading this thread? Tough call, although I think any inkling of switching hotels would have been supported by my wife strenuously. I do agre that REDSOX1 had good points in terms of how hotels really see us. Prior to this thread I would have had only a passing thought of going to the police, and the OP did speak to a friend of his who is a cop.....maybe the timing of that conversation was such that police involvement would have been a real waste of time.

The other thing to take into account though is, if I'm not mistaken, the OP is a Brit. This is a country where I believe it was only recently the police even started carrying guns. The old joke about their police saying "Stop! Or I'll say stop again!" has a grain of truth to it. People just handle things differently over there. They aren't as confrontational, things are handled differently, and the type of mentality that allowed cops to not carry guns is no doubt still very prevalent. Being a gentleman, if someone says a matter is being dealt with, the OP took the word for it, because I believe that the Brits have a far different definition of customer service than North Americans.

Perhaps he put his faith in some people whose best interests were served by not actually doing anything, simply getting him off his back, and if so, then it could be chalked up to a lesson learned with nothing of serious value lost. But it's probably a new phenomenon to the OP to not trust another person, and needing to put the screws to someone in order to ensure they follow through. We've become accustomed to essentially yelling and screaming and embarrassing people if they slough us off. I think cultural differences are a huge thing here.

I know one thing, I don't think the OP will do the same thing again, and for better or worse, I think the OP's trust in people who say they are looking into something has been lowered significantly.

Good post, thank you Bluefan!

Therein lies the problem:

no crime was committed (there is no B&E on the statutes in the UK; and if a staff member was in the room or gave access to the room, then there was no trespass committed.

A crime was premeditated but was never carried though, based on UK statutes. It was not carried out because there were not enough valuables in the open to make it worth their while. These were probably professionals.

As you mentioned, your valuables were locked away in the safe so there was probably very little of real value in the open for stealing purposes. If something was stollen, then a crime would have been committed and the police would have to have been called in.

As this was a high end Hilton, you probably were about to be burgled by professionals. They probably had a maid to let them in. If there were enough things of value in the open, they would have taken them and would have had the maid disapear. However, as there was not enough of value they chose not to break the law and have the police after them.

The open tonic bottle was probable a "thank you message" for not leaving valuables out in the open. They could have been less subtle about it to.

I suspect the hotel management realized this also and that is why they wanted to keep this quiet, and as you said, they did fire a couple of the maids.

The other thing to take into account though is, if I'm not mistaken, the OP is a Brit.

I've been called worse. ;) I am an American, and live in Chicago. I am pretty street smart and pretty good at raising the tone, escalating the issue when necessary, as I did here. I did threaten to call the police if the GM wouldn't meet with me and, suddenly, he was available.

However, I also realised that there was not a lot to be done and that the situation was actually bizarre. I think that openflync sets out a valid possibility. I told the GM and the security chief that I suspected exactly that. (Thankfully, the alleged professional thieves do not know the value of Bose noise cancelling headphones, which I had left on the bed.)

(Oh, and most British police still don't carry guns. My friend showed me that he has a tiny truncheon that telescopes out to a full sized weapon tucked in velcro in his bicycle vest. My inappropriate comments of course were not withheld.)

(as enough comments been made I'll simply say my issue was with what you posted, not that you would have done differently, but we're all moving on.)

Before, or after, reading this thread? Tough call, although I think any inkling of switching hotels would have been supported by my wife strenuously. I do agre that REDSOX1 had good points in terms of how hotels really see us. Prior to this thread I would have had only a passing thought of going to the police, and the OP did speak to a friend of his who is a cop.....maybe the timing of that conversation was such that police involvement would have been a real waste of time.

The other thing to take into account though is, if I'm not mistaken, the OP is a Brit. This is a country where I believe it was only recently the police even started carrying guns. The old joke about their police saying "Stop! Or I'll say stop again!" has a grain of truth to it. People just handle things differently over there. They aren't as confrontational, things are handled differently, and the type of mentality that allowed cops to not carry guns is no doubt still very prevalent. Being a gentleman, if someone says a matter is being dealt with, the OP took the word for it, because I believe that the Brits have a far different definition of customer service than North Americans.

Perhaps he put his faith in some people whose best interests were served by not actually doing anything, simply getting him off his back, and if so, then it could be chalked up to a lesson learned with nothing of serious value lost. But it's probably a new phenomenon to the OP to not trust another person, and needing to put the screws to someone in order to ensure they follow through. We've become accustomed to essentially yelling and screaming and embarrassing people if they slough us off. I think cultural differences are a huge thing here.

I know one thing, I don't think the OP will do the same thing again, and for better or worse, I think the OP's trust in people who say they are looking into something has been lowered significantly.

Good points Bluefan. Let me please add that Hilton does not have a good reputation amongst savvy individual business travelers in the UK. Their hotels are often poorly run for their level. This incident is a perfect example of this. The Waldorf in my 35 years of booking (and working there) has never been particularly well run. In general I still do not book American travelers in there because of the high level of complaints.

I have come across ONE exception and that is the Hilton which is known as the Trafalgar Hilton. It is a relatively new one and it is very close indeed to the Waldorf Hilton (the one where the OP had the problem). The Hilton Trafalgar has always got excellent feedback from people I booked there. I gather it is somehow associated with, but not so much part of the Hilton chain being apparently owned and managed by an entrepreneur, but is not actually owned by Hilton however is bookable through all the usual systems that book Hilton. If you must stay at a Hilton in London, I suggest you give this a try and post if you get any problems as based on the feedback I have been getting over hte past two or three years from guests this HIlton is a much better experience and more professionally run.

Let me please add that Hilton does not have a good reputation amongst savvy individual business travelers in the UK.

Out of curiosity, what kind of feedback have you recieved about the Paddington Station Hilton?

Good points Bluefan. Let me please add that Hilton does not have a good reputation amongst savvy individual business travelers in the UK. Their hotels are often poorly run for their level. This incident is a perfect example of this. The Waldorf in my 35 years of booking (and working there) has never been particularly well run. In general I still do not book American travelers in there because of the high level of complaints.

I have come across ONE exception and that is the Hilton which is known as the Trafalgar Hilton. It is a relatively new one and it is very close indeed to the Waldorf Hilton (the one where the OP had the problem). The Hilton Trafalgar has always got excellent feedback from people I booked there. I gather it is somehow associated with, but not so much part of the Hilton chain being apparently owned and managed by an entrepreneur, but is not actually owned by Hilton however is bookable through all the usual systems that book Hilton. If you must stay at a Hilton in London, I suggest you give this a try and post if you get any problems as based on the feedback I have been getting over hte past two or three years from guests this HIlton is a much better experience and more professionally run.
First of all, AFAIK, very few Hiltons are actually owned by Hilton. Most hotel chains, in fact, do NOT own most of the hotels bearing their flag.

And second of all, right here on this forum there are already many (dozens, at least) threads on the various Hilton properties in London, with hundreds of experiences reported, and every one of the hotels has very mixed reviews, including the Trafalgar. I think it is risky to make sweeping generalizations -- people's expectations and experiences are just too variable.

Also, I believe that theft in hotel rooms is a problem for all hotels -- I don't see it as particularly a Hilton problem. The OP was lucky in that nothing of value was taken. It IS creepy to think that someone was trying to burglarize your room -- never a good feeling. One of the downsides of traveling and staying in hotels is the knowledge that you never really have as much privacy and security as you would like to imagine. :(

perhaps i missed it, but did derek elect not to ask for another room in the hotel.
that should have been the very least the hotel should have offered, and if all rooms were fillled, then a taxi to a nearby hotel of similar level and a room there. at least until the suspected breach of security had been verified, identified, and dealt with. anything less means "we don't care about your concerns and we don't care about you but we'll continue to take your money as long as you choose to keep handing it to us".

perhaps i missed it, but did derek elect not to ask for another room in the hotel.
that should have been the very least the hotel should have offered, and if all rooms were fillled, then a taxi to a nearby hotel of similar level and a room there. at least until the suspected breach of security had been verified, identified, and dealt with. anything less means "we don't care about your concerns and we don't care about you but we'll continue to take your money as long as you choose to keep handing it to us".

It wasn't offered. By the time I spoke to the GM (who had apparently been told by staff I had refused their offer to move us, which was patently untrue), well, it was two days later and we only had 2 more nights at the hotel. We did not feel it worthwhile to pack up and move, as we had 8 days worth of clothes etc. and moving wouldn't have really changed anything. We did leave the DND sign on the door the rest of the time, except for maid service, and didn't leave as much as a penny sitting out in the room.

In fairness to the hotel, they did apparently review the video footage (after I had to escalate the matter, sadly), interviewed the two people who had accessed the room, and dismissed one of them. At the end of the day, the only other thing I could have expected, I think, was a written apology. Now if the video footage actually showed a suspicious person in the corridor at the same time the maid entered the room, and the security chief chose not to divulge this to me, well, that is a problem, but it is pure speculation on our part.

This may sound a bit cynical, but I sometimes get the feeling that when companies say, "Oh, we fired so-and-so" in response to your escalating complaint, it may just be another way of "handling" the situation. I.e., a convenient falsehood to make you, the customer, feel better.

Did you get that feeling? Or do you think that someone was actually fired?

no crime was committed (there is no B&E on the statutes in the UK; and if a staff member was in the room or gave access to the room, then there was no trespass committed.[/QUOTE]
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---hmmmm let me get this straight...a member of housekeeping WAS FIRED over this incident, (or so they say)...maybe for unauthorized entry or allowing of such into YOUR room....but they did not want to disclose to you their full findings....

That's as close as you may get to an admittance on thier part of their negligent security.. In addition, your friend may be slightly off about no crime being committed. An Unlawful Entry with "Criminal Intent", is in fact a crime in many (Western Law) parts of the world. Are there any UK Barristers in the house that can verify UK law???

Regardles, you may never get the apology you are seeking from Waldorf. However, a steak dinner or a free night, may be a step in the right direction to heal the pain and suffering. Try to get something as payment of damages would be a partial admittance on their part.. and so they know it will not be tolerated by you or anyone else who stays there.

Good luck

hmmmm let me get this straight...a member of housekeeping WAS FIRED over this incident, (or so they say)...maybe for unauthorized entry or allowing of such into YOUR room....but they did not want to disclose to you their full findings....


That may have been their full findings. An employee entered the room, but did not steal anything. The employee was authorized to get into the room. Where was the crime in that?

You want them to admit to something more, in this sue happy world. So they can open themselves up to a lawsuit?


That's as close as you may get to an admittance on thier part of their negligent security.. In addition, your friend may be slightly off about no crime being committed. An Unlawful Entry with "Criminal Intent", is in fact a crime in many (Western Law) parts of the world. Are there any UK Barristers in the house that can verify UK law???


What was stolen? A maid enters a hotel room she works in, how do you claim that as unlawful entry? Where did you get "Criminal Intent"? Nothing was stolen.


Regardles, you may never get the apology you are seeking from Waldorf. However, a steak dinner or a free night, may be a step in the right direction to heal the pain and suffering. Try to get something as payment of damages would be a partial admittance on their part.. and so they know it will not be tolerated by you or anyone else who stays there.

You sound like a lawyer or someone who would have gotten a lawyer to sue this hotel for the "pain and suffering" you suffered when you noticed a maid had entered your room and left an open drink.

In the US you may have had a chance to get something out of Hilton. However, in the UK you would have lost. And worse, you may have been liable to pay Hilton's legal expenses as well. (Someone more familiar with UK law should confirm/deny this).

Bottom line is that there was intent to commit a crime, however, as there was probably not enough (apart from the headphones) to make the crime worthwhile, they left before commititing a crime.

This misses the fact that in most modern hotel connector rooms, there are two doors comprising the connector. You have to open (not just unlock) the connector door on "your side" of the room, then go into the second room and open the connector door on "that side."

So even if an evil maid entered room 103 and unlocked (and opened!) its connector, she'd still have to enter room 105 later (captured on keycard log) and unlock and open THAT connector to access room 103. And then she'd have to "cover her tracks" by going back to room 103 after the fact to re-lock the connector door. This would all show up on keycard logs.

Nope. Enter 103 legitimately, leave connecting door unlocked. Enter 105, steal from 103. Re-lock connecting door, exit 103 (exits aren't recorded, they don't require keys). Later, enter 105 and re-lock that side. No extra entry to 103 ever recorded; there's one extra to 105, but they didn't have any reason to suspect anything.

No extra entry to 103 ever recorded; there's one extra to 105, but they didn't have any reason to suspect anything.
Ah, but they do. If something goes missing from another room in a connecting set of rooms, most hotels will routinely pull the key access logs from all rooms in the connecting set.

Nope. Enter 103 legitimately, leave connecting door unlocked. Enter 105, steal from 103. Re-lock connecting door, exit 103 (exits aren't recorded, they don't require keys). Later, enter 105 and re-lock that side. No extra entry to 103 ever recorded; there's one extra to 105, but they didn't have any reason to suspect anything.Oh yes they do - assuming, of course, that a theft or odd situation in the room is reported.

That may have been their full findings. An employee entered the room, but did not steal anything. The employee was authorized to get into the room. Where was the crime in that?

You want them to admit to something more, in this sue happy world. So they can open themselves up to a lawsuit?



What was stolen? A maid enters a hotel room she works in, how do you claim that as unlawful entry? Where did you get "Criminal Intent"? Nothing was stolen.



You sound like a lawyer or someone who would have gotten a lawyer to sue this hotel for the "pain and suffering" you suffered when you noticed a maid had entered your room and left an open drink.

In the US you may have had a chance to get something out of Hilton. However, in the UK you would have lost. And worse, you may have been liable to pay Hilton's legal expenses as well. (Someone more familiar with UK law should confirm/deny this).

Bottom line is that there was intent to commit a crime, however, as there was probably not enough (apart from the headphones) to make the crime worthwhile, they left before commititing a crime.

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No I'm not a lair, I mean lawyer, but had a long law enforcemnt career. Let me ask you, a guy walks into your house uninvited, (kids left backdoor unlocked), with the intent to steal anything he can get his hands on. He can't unhook the plazma , sniffs around through the underwear (sick guy), hears voices outside, gets nervous and leaves. He did not steal anything...was it a crime? YOU BET, and I bet you would not want him around your block and would like to see him in jail.....No I've never sued anyone, don't like our overly littigous society, and the hotel incident would not be worthy of a large cash suit anyway. Why was the Maid fired??? I've dealt with both countries and too many hotels, and the point is not to be walked all over. Make it harder for them to walk all over the next traveler, because if there was an Unlawful Entry, you would not want it happen to someone else.

Ah, but they do. If something goes missing from another room in a connecting set of rooms, most hotels will routinely pull the key access logs from all rooms in the connecting set.

I haven't had it happen since the new technology, so I don't know what they'd do. But a clever thief:

10 AM: Make up 105, leave connecting door unlocked.

noon: guest returns to 105, leaves (observing that nothing has been stolen)

1 PM: Make up 103, steal from 105, leave via 105 (locking its connecting door) and lock 103's connecting door (no second entry, cart is in front with door kept open).

So there's evidence that the maid made up 105 during the time period that the theft probably happened. But that's the maid's job, nothing at all suspicious.

I haven't had it happen since the new technology, so I don't know what they'd do. But a clever thief:

10 AM: Make up 105, leave connecting door unlocked.

noon: guest returns to 105, leaves (observing that nothing has been stolen)

1 PM: Make up 103, steal from 105, leave via 105 (locking its connecting door) and lock 103's connecting door (no second entry, cart is in front with door kept open).

So there's evidence that the maid made up 105 during the time period that the theft probably happened. But that's the maid's job, nothing at all suspicious.Again, in most modern hotel rooms, the connector door cannot simply be unlocked - it must be unlocked and opened; that is, left ajar. It has a deadbolt and a normal door latch with a handle - but no handle on the inner surface.

So at noon, when your guest returns to 105, hopefully they notice that their connector door is ajar, which would ring alarm bells with me in a split second, and which would probably deter the typical evil maid from attempting this kind of theft not knowing when the guest would return.

They also wouldn't know if a supervisor might show up and wonder why the heck the connector doors are open on rooms rented out to two different guests with no obvious familial connection, although this depends on how savvy the supervisor is.

It's not perfect, but there are deterrents in place.

BTW, this reminds me of what an actual clever thief often attempts: They knock on an open room door where the housekeeper is working, say "Hi, I'm back for a while - can you come back later?" - and then ransack the room when the housekeeper leaves.

Housekeepers are trained to always request that the guest engage the electronic lock with their room key to prove that they are the occupants of the room; sometimes a "clever" thief will try intimidation to overcome this. "Well, I left my key at the pool! How dare you! DYKWIA?" And so on.

So, faithful FTers...when a housekeeper asks for your ID or asks you to produce your room key and slide it in the lock before letting you in your room...you know this is a security issue in your best interest, and you never ever berate or condescend to the housekeeper now...do you?

BTW, this reminds me of what an actual clever thief often attempts: They knock on an open room door where the housekeeper is working, say "Hi, I'm back for a while - can you come back later?" - and then ransack the room when the housekeeper leaves.

Housekeepers are trained to always request that the guest engage the electronic lock with their room key to prove that they are the occupants of the room...

I was very impressed recently at the Brisbane Hilton when the maid did exactly that - I returned to grab a folder after breakfast and she was already working on my room. She was quite apologetic about asking, but I thanked her since she was protecting my interests.

Richard.

Let me ask you, a guy walks into your house uninvited, (kids left backdoor unlocked), with the intent to steal anything he can get his hands on. He can't unhook the plazma , sniffs around through the underwear (sick guy), hears voices outside, gets nervous and leaves. He did not steal anything...was it a crime? YOU BET, and I bet you would not want him around your block and would like to see him in jail.....No I've never sued anyone, don't like our overly littigous society, and the hotel incident would not be worthy of a large cash suit anyway. Why was the Maid fired??? I've dealt with both countries and too many hotels, and the point is not to be walked all over. Make it harder for them to walk all over the next traveler, because if there was an Unlawful Entry, you would not want it happen to someone else.

Redsox1,

There are differences between the US and UK.

On the Home B&E you can shoot him as long as he was inside the house and you would be within the law. Not so in the UK, and not only because guns are essentialy illegal over there.

However back to the case in point.

You are only a guest in a hotel. It is not your property. You only have rented the facilities and in return they agree to provide cleaning services, etc.

Where is the B&E, when a maid enters your room to look around? She can either be observing for what needs to be cleaned or what can be taken.

Remember, you are assumed inocent until proven guilty. You be the judge.

Would you believe the maid if she used her authorized entry card to enter a guests room? Especialy if her job was to clean hotel room?

Would you believe her if nothing was stolen from the room?

Again, in most modern hotel rooms, the connector door cannot simply be unlocked - it must be unlocked and opened; that is, left ajar. It has a deadbolt and a normal door latch with a handle - but no handle on the inner surface.

It needn't be left visibly ajar; a piece of tape will keep the latch from engaging.

It needn't be left visibly ajar; a piece of tape will keep the latch from engaging.

Most of the time the door won't stay shut if the latch isn't engaged on connecting doors.

Again, in most modern hotel rooms, the connector door cannot simply be unlocked - it must be unlocked and opened; that is, left ajar. It has a deadbolt and a normal door latch with a handle - but no handle on the inner surface.I'll accept that some hotels are this way, but I'm not so sure about "in most modern hotel rooms." I've stayed in a large number of hotels around the world, almost always in Hiltons or Conrads, and often have two connecting rooms. I've found a very wide variance in how the connecting doors operate. Sometimes, there are heavy springs or other automatic closing mechanisms that make it almost impossible to prop the doors open. Other times there are simple latches on each door, and once unlocked, the doors can be opened from either side (but sometimes it's a bit harder from the connecting side as there is no handle). It really tends to be different in every hotel, in my personal experience.

BTW, this reminds me of what an actual clever thief often attempts: They knock on an open room door where the housekeeper is working, say "Hi, I'm back for a while - can you come back later?" - and then ransack the room when the housekeeper leaves.

Housekeepers are trained to always request that the guest engage the electronic lock with their room key to prove that they are the occupants of the roomI've never once had a maid do this, and there have been a lot of times I've popped into my room to drop something off while the maid was working. This has been at Hilton and non-Hilton properties around the country and around the world.

I'll accept that some hotels are this way, but I'm not so sure about "in most modern hotel rooms." I've stayed in a large number of hotels around the world, almost always in Hiltons or Conrads, and often have two connecting rooms. I've found a very wide variance in how the connecting doors operate. Sometimes, there are heavy springs or other automatic closing mechanisms that make it almost impossible to prop the doors open. Other times there are simple latches on each door, and once unlocked, the doors can be opened from either side (but sometimes it's a bit harder from the connecting side as there is no handle). It really tends to be different in every hotel, in my personal experience.And admittedly most of my experience is North America. The point is, in most cases it's not just a single door connecting two rooms - it's two doors. Hotels have made an effort to reasonably secure connecting rooms.

I've never once had a maid do this, and there have been a lot of times I've popped into my room to drop something off while the maid was working. This has been at Hilton and non-Hilton properties around the country and around the world.Well, if you're just popping in and immediately popping out without dismissing the housekeeper, I can see where there might not be an ID check. I was talking about entering the room while the housekeeper is there and dismissing the housekeeper. In that instance the housekeeper should verify your ID and/or ownership of the room.

And of course, just because you're staying in a hotel doesn't mean you can check your brain at the door and just leave stuff out. The hotel has a certain duty of care...and the guest has to have some common sense. It's a hotel; it's not your own personal house.

Redsox1,

There are differences between the US and UK.

On the Home B&E you can shoot him as long as he was inside the house and you would be within the law. Not so in the UK, and not only because guns are essentialy illegal over there.

However back to the case in point.

You are only a guest in a hotel. It is not your property. You only have rented the facilities and in return they agree to provide cleaning services, etc.

Where is the B&E, when a maid enters your room to look around? She can either be observing for what needs to be cleaned or what can be taken.

Remember, you are assumed inocent until proven guilty. You be the judge.

Would you believe the maid if she used her authorized entry card to enter a guests room? Especialy if her job was to clean hotel room?

Would you believe her if nothing was stolen from the room?







- There have been a few “assumptions” between the Brits and Yanks on this thread; customs, attitudes and laws. While there are obvious cultural differences, in many, many ways, we are very similar. Brits would be just as irate as an American if stuff in their hotel room was “rifled” through like what happened here and maybe some may not act like the refined gentlemen as stereotyped.
- As to the gun talk on this thread……You (openflync) of course must realize that much of the law theory in the USA came from British law. Sure, as pointed out a few times, UK has more gun control. However, in both countries we can use deadly force to defend our selves and family in our own home, with whatever improvised weapon that is readily available. On the flip side, in both countries, we can’t perform target practice on innocent people entering our property.
- As posted here too, there are so many ways in which a person can gain entry into a hotel room. There been much speculation on what happened in Derek’s room. We are going in circles here! Who knows for sure?? I’m “Assuming” Derek’s stuff was rifled through, there was a security breach and the housekeeper was fired over it after the investigation by management. Is it worth a million bucks or even $10, 000 in a frivolous law suit? No. Should the hotel be held accountable? YES! The hotel is responsible for security. Old leadership saying: “You (Management) can delegate authority but not responsibility”. Is it worth it for the hotel to offer a different room, meal or free night to the traveler as compensation? For problem resolution, I would think a good manager would know in the service industry, customer service and public relations are paramount. We must hold hotels accountable so the next traveler has a better stay.

Redsox,

From your post, I believe you assume I am a "Brit". In fact I am a "Yank" who has lived in various places overseas as well as in the US.

I know a bit about the law in the US, UK and many other places.

Your assumptions about deadly force in the UK are wrong. People have gone to jail for doing such. You assumptions of private property in the UK are wrong. The British have been dealt severly over the centuries (millenia actually) by the nobility and their private property.

Needless to say, this has changed over the 20th century. The relationship of private property and the individual are different over there than the US.

Nevertheless, lets go back to US law where you say you were involved in law enforcement.

Do you not need proof to even charge someone. Where is your proof that a crime was commited?

Redsox,

From your post, I believe you assume I am a "Brit". In fact I am a "Yank" who has lived in various places overseas as well as in the US.

I know a bit about the law in the US, UK and many other places.

Your assumptions about deadly force in the UK are wrong. People have gone to jail for doing such. You assumptions of private property in the UK are wrong. The British have been dealt severly over the centuries (millenia actually) by the nobility and their private property.

Needless to say, this has changed over the 20th century. The relationship of private property and the individual are different over there than the US.

Nevertheless, lets go back to US law where you say you were involved in law enforcement.

Do you not need proof to even charge someone. Where is your proof that a crime was commited?

Openflync,
I made no assumptions of you being a Brit, but you continue to assume I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about. I suggest the next time you are in the UK, speak to the nearest Constable and ask him/her about home defense. You can also do a google search and research case law. A man in his UK home, has a right to defend himself and use deadly force IF (repeat if) necessary, (i.e. violent attack where life is in danger). Nobility law roots? Yes indeed the dark ages are over and Brits enjoy lots of property rights and there are much fewer socialist ideals there then many other European countries. UK property owners have rights, renters have rights, and hotel guests have rights; all too various degrees and similiar, (not same) as us in the USA. Much of this should be debated elsewhere, but I stand by my earlier posts. Hilton says “Be Hospitable” Were they in this case with Derek? I say no, you may say otherwise.

On to your other comments…if a crime occurred and no was there to witness it or not much evidence existed, is it still a crime? Yes. You of course need PC to arrest and solid proof to prosecute. Obviously law enforcement is not going to arrest someone in this theftless incident. Hotel management did an internal investigation and held a member of housekeeping staff accountable and of course this has caused much speculation.

I also stand by my earlier posts that they should ensure good PR with its customers.

This may sound a bit cynical, but I sometimes get the feeling that when companies say, "Oh, we fired so-and-so" in response to your escalating complaint, it may just be another way of "handling" the situation. I.e., a convenient falsehood to make you, the customer, feel better.

Did you get that feeling? Or do you think that someone was actually fired?

He seemed sincere. He said that she was being let go for "ticking the box" rather than actually doing her job (we got no turn down service, which was probably the only part of our complaint that they believed, as the night manager did come up to the room and saw as much) and it had apparently been a recurring problem. But of course I was sceptical myself.

your friend may be slightly off about no crime being committed. An Unlawful Entry with "Criminal Intent", is in fact a crime in many (Western Law) parts of the world. Are there any UK Barristers in the house that can verify UK law???

I'm afraid I'm going to have to stick with the advice of a very dedicated and intelligent police constable who I have known for more than 20 years over your hunch. He did say that there was in fact a crime committed, no matter how petty, in the theft of a 14p bottle of tonic water. My point (and his) was that there is no equivalent in England of the US concept of B&E, at least as it pertains to this situation. This, in his opinion, is a considerable flaw in the English penal code. He said complaining to the police about the water would be futile, but if the law were different, the illegal entry would probably merit a complaint to the police.

I should add that during the rest of the trip, there were many jokes made at my expense, which of course were meant in the kindest, most caring way.

1) Derek, you are a most gentle soul, and I should probably like to have you as a best friend, or to sell you my car. Anyway, your kharma will be better than all of ours combined, and you seem to have landed on the right side of the pond. Shame about the trouble.

2) So, breaking and entering is OK in Britain?! (Oh! Nevermind... just having a look around!) I guess it's the other side of the coin for having Constables with no heat. (Sir, I said please stop!) No need for harsh measures when there's no crime.

3) They didn't fire her for what she did, but for ticking the box? Seems analogous, though certainly on a different scale, to getting Al Capone on mail fraud. How lawless this world would be without technicalities.

And in your case, no harm, no foul (no recourse). A hotel GM doesn't get to that position for nothing.

:):):)

One more thing (I feel like the TV detective with the rumpled coat and glass eye who kept saying, "Oh, one more thing..."), did the GM come up with the term "room incursion" or did you?

You had me at the title, and I didn't even know it.....

"...foray ... sally ... occurrence ... the mistake of incurring liability or blame ... a temporary incursion...

"The incursions of the Goths disordered the affairs of the Roman Empire."
--Arbuthnot."

--The Oxford Dictionary

And to my fellow concerned citizens: Move along, please... Nothing to see here.....

3) They didn't fire her for what she did, but for ticking the box?

That is, they fired her for claiming to have done work she didn't do.

Obviously law enforcement is not going to arrest someone in this theftless incident.

You have a theftless incident.
You have key recordings of a maid entering the room.
You have an open bottle of water and no turndown service.

Where do you see a crime in the above?

You have a theftless incident.
You have key recordings of a maid entering the room.
You have an open bottle of water and no turndown service.

Where do you see a crime in the above?

Here we go again..

Based on JUST those facts you presented, there would be no crime. However, IF Derek’s stuff in his room was rifled through by someone with the criminal intent to steal something and the housekeeper admitted to such, (and that was why she was fired), then there would. The U.S. has various state statues like “Entering w/o Breaking", “Unlawful Entry” and some local quisi Disorderly offences which may be applicable. See my previous post in which the stranger walked into home. The UK has “Criminal Trespass” (Sec 30.05) with various subsections that might have been applicable, because there does exist an expectation of privacy. Housekeeping yes, going through your bags no. Theoretically there could have been a crime; realistically no one will be prosecuted. Again, Hilton/Waldorf should “Be Hospitable” in dealing with these type of complaints and could have handled this better.

1) Derek, you are a most gentle soul, and I should probably like to have you as a best friend, or to sell you my car. Anyway, your kharma will be better than all of ours combined.

We clearly haven't met, but thanks. I think my kharma is overall running negative numbers. Whenever someone here in the States finds out I'm from Canada, they almost universally say how nice Canadians are. My reply is "well, now you've met me...".

Your comment on police not packing heat is spot on; when my friend decided to change careers and become a police officer, we all felt very uncomfortable that he could only defend himself with calm discourse or a heavy stick. He has developed great restraint and a determination to defuse situations. With strangers of course; with friends he is a belligerent little prick.

...for the record, my sig is not fictional. It is perfectly cromulent.

I’m back! “Embiggens” & “Cromulent”, what do they really mean? What would Homer Simpson do? He would have completed his stay at the penthouse suite, ordered gourmet room service every night and drank himself sober. All you got was headaches while staying there followed by stimulating conversation on this board. To finalize this, is there anything you would have done different?

I like your new signature, but why did you change it?