Newsstand - Pilots: When Experience Means Nothing

This week in Patrick Smith's ASK THE PILOT:

When Skill and Experience are Meaningless. The Seniority System Blues.

"...One could easily say that experience, for all of its intangible value, both in normal operations and in those rare times of danger, is essentially meaningless to a pilot's destiny. Seniority is the currency of value. And because seniority has no value beyond the borders of a specific airline, pilots are fiercely protective of it.

Imagine you're an airline captain. You've been with the same company for 20 years, and you're making a respectable if not spectacular six-figure salary. Then one day this airline goes bankrupt and closes its doors, à la Eastern, Braniff, Pan Am and no doubt others still to come. Suddenly jobless, you apply for a position at one of its competitors. Lo and behold, you're hired. Back to normal, right?

Not quite. I'm sad to report that, in addition to the routine challenges faced by anybody who takes up residence with a new company, you will not be hired on as a captain, and you certainly will not be bringing in anything close to your most recent salary. A third of that is more like it, if you’re lucky. You take your place at the bottom of the seniority list, and the long, slow climb begins again. Compensation and benefits are fixed and nonnegotiable. Your annual raise, when there is one, will be based on longevity.

There are no exceptions. Not even if your name is, say, Chesley Sullenberger. "We're all proud of you, Sully. Sorry about the demise of US Airways. You'll be an asset to our airline and we're happy to have you. Unfortunately, you'll need to remove that fourth stripe from your epaulet, since with us you'll be flying as a junior copilot. Many of your captains, younger and far less experienced than you, will probably feel uneasy, but so it goes..."


The full article is here....

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2009/03/20/askthepilot313/index.html

You can enter Salon.com for free. Look for the "skip this ad" or "enter Salon" link on the landing page.


Recently in ASK THE PILOT: Do poorly paid pilots make the skies unsafe?
http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2009/03/06/askthepilot312/

As the seniority system is a critical tenet of unions, and most if not all the pilots on FT are staunch union supporters...what's the point of this article?

Yup, unions at work. Tie a worker to a company so he can't shop around for a better job so the company has him over a barrel so he has to turn to the union to get decent pay.

The seniority system is not a creation of the unions. It is used by all US airlines of any size, union or not. JetBlue and Skywest are probably the two biggest examples of non-union airlines in the US and both use seniority. There are many smaller non-union airlines that also use seniority.

The seniority system is not a creation of the unions. It is used by all US airlines of any size, union or not. JetBlue and Skywest are probably the two biggest examples of non-union airlines in the US and both use seniority. There are many smaller non-union airlines that also use seniority.If the unions didn't like it they could negotiate it away. The non-union shops have the setup because the union ones do and they are just following along the "typical" industry setup.

I'm sick of hearing the pilots complain about how they are not getting a fair deal from the airlines. They chose the negotiators.

I'm sick of hearing the pilots complain about how they are not getting a fair deal from the airlines. They chose the negotiators.

^ ^ ^

Same holds for the FAs, btw.

Don't come crying to us, your paying customers, when you decide, at some point, you don't like the terms of your contract(s)-you voted for those who negiotated the contracts & voted to approve the contracts after they were negiotated. Live with it until the contract expires & then get different negiotators.

We have to reset our country to respect the individual. The group think is a sham to produce lower quality. You actually feel good when you strive to be the best and are rewarded. More will want to excel.

If the unions didn't like it they could negotiate it away. The non-union shops have the setup because the union ones do and they are just following along the "typical" industry setup.

The unions negotiate seniority rights because none of them have every been able to come up with a better system. Management at union airlines accept a seniority system because none of them have ever been able to come up with a better system. Management at non-union airlines implement a seniority system because none of them have ever come up with a better system.

You think pilots like not being able to transfer their experience to a new airlines? We don't. There have been attempts to find a workable system for a national seniority list but nobody has ever been able to come up with a way to make it fair and make it work.

The unions negotiate seniority rights because none of them have every been able to come up with a better system. Management at union airlines accept a seniority system because none of them have ever been able to come up with a better system. Management at non-union airlines implement a seniority system because none of them have ever come up with a better system.

You think pilots like not being able to transfer their experience to a new airlines? We don't. There have been attempts to find a workable system for a national seniority list but nobody has ever been able to come up with a way to make it fair and make it work.
But if you don't have a better system why complain about the one you have?? Maybe what you have actually is best. :confused:

Either show up with a viable alternative or deal with what you have. But complaining about the existing situation without providing an alternative is just whining, and that doesn't represent the profession all that well.

What a load of rubbish.

Pilots are in a unique position in which experience is relevant anywhere AND restrictions on movement (both from a legal perspective as well as a lifestyle one) are quite light.

Try finding a job abroad using your extensive experience as a lawyer (different legal system, possible different language/terminology) or administrative assistant (possible different language, and good luck getting a visa/work permit!), THEN come back to complain that pilots can't get a decent job if their employer goes under.

The unions negotiate seniority rights because none of them have every been able to come up with a better system. Management at union airlines accept a seniority system because none of them have ever been able to come up with a better system. Management at non-union airlines implement a seniority system because none of them have ever come up with a better system.

You think pilots like not being able to transfer their experience to a new airlines? We don't. There have been attempts to find a workable system for a national seniority list but nobody has ever been able to come up with a way to make it fair and make it work.

This is assuming seniority matters.

How about looking at logbooks instead??

"Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. This is your captain Joe Sixpack. Assisting me on this flight is first officer Chesley Sullenberger. Very soon I will be turning the seat belt light off ...

"Thud!" is heard on the PA system.

"Sccrrrritttchh" as the pilots chin rubs the microphone as he instinctivley ducks down to avoid a big brown bird hitting the windshield. A smell of roast duck starts to permeate the cabin which becomes strangely silent.

"Thud!" Something hits the airplane wing outside.

The microphone is still switched on. "Sully, your aircraft! Pulleeeze!"

>>> ... better system ... viable alternative ...
Don't hundreds of thousands of businesses look at resumes, conduct inteviews, and make offers? The system/alternative is there. All it takes is ratification.

Pilots are in a unique position in which experience is relevant anywhere AND restrictions on movement (both from a legal perspective as well as a lifestyle one) are quite light.

I agree that they do tend to be able to move quite freely internationally, within certain constraints (e.g. without a JAR licence, not a lot of chance of moving to an European operator, except for certain exceptions). They are also generally able to move companies quite a lot if they are going to a low cost carrier or as an expat contractor.

However, it is basically impossible to gain a direct entry command (except as a summer only contractor in IT carrier) in, say, the UK 'traditional' carriers (excluding turboprops) and IT carriers.

I'm sure moving between companies while maintaining a similar position and similar pay would not be quite so difficult in many other industries.

However there are merits of seniority-based system as well. It works OK in many companies because many very senior first officers are not promoted to captains because there are still competency-based selection for promotion as well as seniority system. When it does fall down is some very lax companies where there is insufficient competency-based filtering system. Seniority based system also tends to help the airline to keep their crew (many companies operating seniority-based system also have yearly pay increments - although you could say this is coincidental).

Anyway, I'll stop now, as I don't wish to write a thesis on FT :D

s accept a seniority system because none of them have ever been able to come up with a better system.

Seriously? Tens of thousands of companies and hundreds of millions of employees around the world are hired, evaluated, compensated, and promoted based on the quality of their work, the evaluation of their supervisors/co-workers/etc - and it's impossible to judge a pilot by the quality of his/her work?

I just find that hard to believe.

Attempts to develop a "national seniority list" seems to be hunting for a way to extend a flawed model.

But if you don't have a better system why complain about the one you have??

A FlyerTalker asking why complain? Surely you jest!

Just because nobody has come up with a better system doesn't mean that the current system is without flaws. It's full of flaws. It's just the best that we've so far devised.

This is assuming seniority matters. How about looking at logbooks instead??

How would that work? Whoever has the most hours gets to bid their schedules, vacations and seat first? Does an hour in a C-152 count the same as one in an F/A-18 or a B738?

Seriously? Tens of thousands of companies and hundreds of millions of employees around the world are hired, evaluated, compensated, and promoted based on the quality of their work, the evaluation of their supervisors/co-workers/etc - and it's impossible to judge a pilot by the quality of his/her work?

As I said, neither the pilots nor management have any interest in having pilot groups, often numbering in the thousands, being individually graded and ranked for the purposed of bidding equipment, schedules, vacation and equipment. Management isn't interested in the burden of administering such a system where hundreds of pilots currently report to a single supervisor. The Chief Pilots have better things to do with their time. The pilots aren't interested because it couldn't be done equitably. There is too much subjectiveness involved. Who do you grade more highly? The pilot who refused an airplane because of maintenance concerns or the one who pressed on to get the passengers in as the storms approached but before their duty time expired? The pilot who can fly the simulator profile to the tightest tolerance or the one who made the right decision in an emergency? How do you quantify the criteria on which they would be evaluated?

If pilots were to be evaluated annually, the larger airlines would have to evaluate over 30 pilots each and every weekday throughout the year. Why would the airline wish to take on that burden? How would they handle the inevitable complaints from those who feel that they were rated unfairly? Once an airline grows beyond a handful of pilots the AIRLINE implements a seniority system to relieve itself of the burden of managing it themselves. Later, if a union is brought it, the procedures of the seniority system are codified in an enforceable contract which prevents the rules from shifting without warning.

Attempts to develop a "national seniority list" seems to be hunting for a way to extend a flawed model.

The national seniority list creates more problems than it solves which is why it's never gotten very far. I brought it up because, AFAIK, it is the only alternative that has ever been seriously discussed.

A FlyerTalker asking why complain? Surely you jest!

Just because nobody has come up with a better system doesn't mean that the current system is without flaws. It's full of flaws. It's just the best that we've so far devised.Actually I was pretty serious. Not so much about the complaints here on FT - that is what it is - but when the pilots go out into the media bemoaning their lot in life that irks me to no end.


As I said, neither the pilots nor management have any interest in having pilot groups, often numbering in the thousands, being individually graded and ranked for the purposed of bidding equipment, schedules, vacation and equipment. So pilots don't want to be scored as a group nor individually. They just want more money across the board for everyone. Got it. :rolleyes:

So pilots don't want to be scored as a group nor individually. They just want more money across the board for everyone. Got it. :rolleyes:

Come up with an objective, fair and workable method and you'll get a lot of takers. The available forms of evaluation are too subjective and completely impractical to use on a large scale.

Come up with an objective, fair and workable method and you'll get a lot of takers. The available forms of evaluation are too subjective and completely impractical to use on a large scale.

Not my job. I don't really care how the pilots are evaluated and rated for their pay scale.

But I am annoyed and insulted that the pilots think that leveraging the passengers to fight their battles is a productive and useful negotiating tactic.

I put my life in the hands of dozens of different people on any given day, from the ConEd guy repairing a gas leak to the subway conductor to the bus driver to the taxi driver to the train conductor to the airline pilot. Only one of those seems to try to use the customer to manipulate management.

Here's one to try. Everyone gets paid the same amount. Period. Raises are in lock-step if they happen at all. How many people would see their salary go down and how many would see it go up?

Your preferences for pilot labor relations and US labor law/RLA are in conflict.

Your preferences for pilot labor relations and US labor law/RLA are in conflict.

How so? US law/RLA requires the contracts to be negotiated through the customer?

My new labor plan was hardly a serious suggestion. Like I said, I don't really care how it gets done. Much like sausage and taxes I'd just prefer not to see it happen or be considered a pawn in the game,

How so? US law/RLA requires the contracts to be negotiated through the customer?

The RLA almost assures that any significant dispute between airline management and labor will eventually filter down to effect the customers.

The RLA almost assures that any significant dispute between airline management and labor will eventually filter down to effect the customers.

Certainly passengers will be affected if the pilots strike or the management locks them out.

That is very different than the recent spate of pilots drumming up as much media coverage as they possibly can, all with hat in hand, trying to convince the public that they are poorly paid and how management is hosing them. That is the part I find patronizing and offensive.

The UA pilot plan of turning off Channel 9 to punish the customers so as to make a statement to management is outright foolish.

That is very different than the recent spate of pilots drumming up as much media coverage as they possibly can, all with hat in hand, trying to convince the public that they are poorly paid and how management is hosing them. That is the part I find patronizing and offensive.

We don't seem to be communicating.

Airline labor groups often resort to those tactics because the RLA does not allow them any other legal options to put pressure on management to negotiate as is (supposed to be) required by the RLA. Management can, and usually does, sit on it's hands for two to three years refusing to engage in any meaningful negotiations. Under the RLA, there's nothing to compel management to negotiate if (as they almost always do) they prefer to delay.

When meaningful negotiations are taking place you don't hear anything about it in the general press. A customer would never even know that negotiations are ongoing.

The UA pilot plan of turning off Channel 9 to punish the customers so as to make a statement to management is outright foolish.

There is no UA pilot plan of turning off Ch9. Each Captain makes his own decision about Ch9 and most of them leave it on.

We don't seem to be communicating.

Airline labor groups often resort to those tactics because the RLA does not allow them any other legal options to put pressure on management to negotiate as is (supposed to be) required by the RLA. Management can, and usually does, sit on it's hands for two to three years refusing to engage in any meaningful negotiations. Under the RLA, there's nothing to compel management to negotiate if (as they almost always do) they prefer to delay.And? Is there a compelling reason to negotiate the next contract in the middle of the current one?

Again, I don't understand how using the customer as a weapon in the fight with management is a good idea from the perspective of the pilots.

When meaningful negotiations are taking place you don't hear anything about it in the general press. A customer would never even know that negotiations are ongoing.
Which is the way it should be, all of the time, even during the lulls when there are no "meaningful" negotiations going on.

And? Is there a compelling reason to negotiate the next contract in the middle of the current one?

I'm not aware of any negotiations that have opened significantly before a contract becomes amendable considering the amount of time that it takes to reach a new agreement. New contracts are typically signed three to four years AFTER the amendable date of the previous one.

Again, I don't understand how using the customer as a weapon in the fight with management is a good idea from the perspective of the pilots.

Management doesn't want the customers flying other airlines in fear of labor issues at their airline. If labor had a better method for getting the negotiation process going they'd use it. See the thread about FedEx's reaction to the possibility of their labor relations moving from our from under the RLA to see just how important it is to them (management) to keep the significant advantages that the RLA offers to management.

Which is the way it should be, all of the time, even during the lulls when there are no "meaningful" negotiations going on.

Labor will not sit for a couple of years of management stalling without using whatever legal means are available to them to get management to negotiate--as they are required to do by the RLA.

I'm not aware of any negotiations that have opened significantly before a contract becomes amendable considering the amount of time that it takes to reach a new agreement. New contracts are typically signed three to four years AFTER the amendable date of the previous one.

...

Labor will not sit for a couple of years of management stalling without using whatever legal means are available to them to get management to negotiate--as they are required to do by the RLA.

This is the part that I am having trouble comprehending. It sounds to me like you are suggesting that the contracts be constantly in negotiation, rather than enjoying some pause between rounds of negotiation to actually just fly the plane or run the airline. Do you believe that there truly is value in the pilots aggressively pursuing negotiation efforts in the amendable period but before the contract expires? A four year negotiation window doesn't seem all that useful to me if a one year window would work.

Do you believe that there truly is value in the pilots aggressively pursuing negotiation efforts in the amendable period but before the contract expires?

If I understand correctly, the contracts NEVER expire.

They only become amendable.

If that is the case, I cannot understand your objection.

Do you believe that there truly is value in the pilots aggressively pursuing negotiation efforts in the amendable period but before the contract expires?

As I said, it is typically three to four years AFTER the contract becomes amendable before a new agreement is reached. If new agreements were frequently being reached before the amendable date then I'd agree.

Negotiations are scheduled to begin some months before the amendable date under the theory that a new agreement can be ready by the amendable date. That theory assumes that both parties negotiate in good faith but airlines learned long ago that there is no reason for them to do so.

If I understand correctly, the contracts NEVER expire.

They only become amendable.

If that is the case, I cannot understand your objection.

Thank you for this clarification. It definitely makes more sense in this context.

I still find the pilots' use of the customer as a bargaining chip an unfortunate and moderately disgusting action, but at least now I understand the situation better.

How does seniority work with large corporate flight departments or frax operators like NetJets? AFAIK, it’s similar to the airlines.

How does seniority work with large corporate flight departments or frax operators like NetJets? AFAIK, it’s similar to the airlines.

I don't have any personal knowledge of any corporate flight departments with more than a dozen, or so, pilots. Even with the smaller ones, seniority is used for picking schedules, vacation, upgrades, etc.

NetJets (Citation Shares, Flight Options, Avatair, FlexJet, etc.) use seniority just like the airlines.

How does seniority work with large corporate flight departments or frax operators like NetJets? AFAIK, it’s similar to the airlines.
I don't' thing following seniority is a bad idea. Union and non-union shops can do that equally well. You don't have to be a Union employee to have a seniority list. It seems the real problem is contracts, and how in-flexible they make things in a rapidly changing business world.

Airline pilots are not the only ones unsatisfied with their current deal.