Air New Zealand Air Points - Details about expanded PE, 777

The 1st a/c enters the hanger for refurbishment 30 March. By 1 June (the day the 8th a/c enters the hanger) all 777-200 in service will be flying the new configuration.

The order of reconfiguration by tail is OKH, OKG, OKF, OKD, OKE, OKC, OKB, OKA.

Current config is 26-18-269, new config will be 26-36-242.

The pitch will increase 2” going from 39”to 41”. Economy remains 32”.

Recline on the back row will increase from 8”to match recline on all other rows of 9”

A new service/self help area at the front of Premium Economy for both use by
Business & Premium Economy.

Bassinet positions –will move to front row outboard triples –one either side

Distance from the front row partitions –at the outboard triples the distance from the seat to wall will increase by 9”going from 28”to 37”. The distance from the centre Partition to the front row seat will remain as current –28”.

Thanks for this. Good to see increased seat pitch - although 3-3-3 really puts me off booking into PE on the 777.
What about pressure on the washrooms? Does PE use the 2 forward toilets in common with business and if so doubling PE will increase the queues and wait times. Is there any plan to increase the no. of washrooms or will PE use economy washrooms?

No additional lavs :td: - possibly PPE will be invited to use the economy mid cabin toilets as well, but it's not really a very satisfactory solution.

From a practical point of view I'm sure they can't justify adding an additional lav, as the installation and plumbing costs are immense, but all the same it's a shame.

BTW, economy class will now start at row 34 and the first 6 rows of economy in the new config will be 31", 1" less than the following rows.

Thanks for the update nz_crew.

So essentially the layout of the cabin is now four rows instead of two?

And presumably it's the extra 9" to the front row partition that's driving the movement of the middle bassinet positions to the port side?

And at 41" the pitch is now greater than on the 747?

Great to hear PE is expanding! Do you know if this will have any impact on the crew levels on the 777? An extra 18 premium seats must mean quite a large extra workload for the FAs in the premium section, who already have a very large cabin and complicated service flow to work through.

As flykiwifly mentioned though, unfortunately the 3 - 3 - 3 config really is offputting (although I guess there isn't really a practical solution given the 777's shape and layout). While the extra seats will help with availability, poss mean the seats are cheaper and help with upgrades, expanding the PE section may decrease the overall cabin ambience.The cabin layout means PE on the 777 doesn't have the same comfort level as the 744, and again as kiwiflykiwi already mentioned it does really put me off paying the extra $$ (whereas on the 744 the extra is worth it). Again though, I'm not sure if there's any alternative layout that makes sense.

Thanks very much for the news :)

Cheers, Zac

Re the crewing: An extra Premium crew member will be added to 777 flights, and one less Economy crew member.

While Economy have lost 27 seats so the workload will be less, the way our service is conducted means that the galley operator will now be required to do all the galley reconciliation and preperation, cook the meals, load the carts, AND serve meals in the cabin. It's not going to be pleasant, but as we've done in the past de-manning (18 on a 747-200!), we'll make it work for the passengers - and in the process no doubt encourage the company to deman further! Talk about a vicious cycle :eek:

Dave - all your points are correct.

Thanks for the update.
Good to see the extra pitch, but like others say, a pity about the 3-3-3 configuration. Will still go for the 747, upstairs on the 2-seat (right?) side.

BTW, economy class will now start at row 34

Ah, this explains why I am unable to select seats on rows 31 - 33 on NZ38 (economy) in September.


the first 6 rows of economy in the new config will be 31", 1" less than the following rows.

Thanks for the info! I will now avoid selecting a seat in these rows!

nz_crew

Just wondering what NZ's crew complement is on the 777, and the deployment per class of service.

Love flying your airline ^

BTW, economy class will now start at row 34 and the first 6 rows of economy in the new config will be 31", 1" less than the following rows.

I can guess how this makes sense from an engineering perspective, but given that the first rows of economy are reserved for *S and *G, this doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

Even at 6" I'll still be tempted to sit forward in the economy cabin to get off quicker, but it's clearly a tradeoff of comfort for speedy egress.

As flykiwifly mentioned though, unfortunately the 3 - 3 - 3 config really is offputting (although I guess there isn't really a practical solution given the 777's shape and layout).

How bout 2-4-2? That's what BA does with World Traveller Plus...

I belive just about every airline with a PE product on a 777 (including JL, NH etc) have a 2-4-2 config, which seems perfectly possible and pose no problems whatsoever regarding the 777 shape and layout.

For the sake of 4 extra seats by doing 3-3-3 instead of 2-4-2, I think they really ought to match the industry standard for PE seat width.

nz_crew

Just wondering what NZ's crew complement is on the 777, and the deployment per class of service.

Love flying your airline ^


Thanks for the compliment :). We have a miserly 10 crew plus Concierge. currently 3 in premium classes, and 6 dedicated to economy. Generally the FSM (FA1/Purser) will assist in Y during the meal service, and Concierges worth their salt aid up front.

As a slimmer type (therefore slightly less fussed about seat width) I must say the increase in pitch makes the 777 Y+ sound a little more attractive... as does the self serve area.....

I'll still try for the 744 flights... and yes, I wish NZ would go to a 2-4-2 config... :D..

The 1st a/c enters the hanger for refurbishment 30 March. By 1 June (the day the 8th a/c enters the hanger) all 777-200 in service will be flying the new configuration.

Thank you nz_crew, I have been seeking this information for a while! Do we have any idea how long each individual refit will take and which routes will be the first to benefit? I ask because my wife and I are booked in PE on NZ39 in early April. Many thanks.

/The refit takes about 2 weeks per a/c and OKH is scheduled to reenter service on 15 April, OKG on the 9th May, so unlikely your flights will be operated in the new config. No details about where they'll go first have been released yet.

/The refit takes about 2 weeks per a/c and OKH is scheduled to reenter service on 15 April, OKG on the 9th May, so unlikely your flights will be operated in the new config. No details about where they'll go first have been released yet.

Do the aircraft tend to stick to the same routes? I was on NZ 7 and 8 13 times in 15 months, and according to ACARS it was always OKB, OKC or OKE.

Pure coincidence as far as I know, however it's possible that those three are our "best" 772s and preferentially scheduled on the longest routes. I recall one 772 performed about 2% worse than the others but can't remember which, and I know for sure we definitely only used the 2-3 "best" 744s on LAX-SYD where at all possible.

Further to this, I looked at my last few trips to YVR and SFO, the two longest routes I fly.

The results-

OKA appears 3 times, OKB once, OKC 3 times, OKD once, OKE twice, OKF twice, OKG once, and OKH never.

Which proves absolutely nothing!

Do we have any idea ... which routes will be the first to benefit?I ask because my wife and I are booked in PE on NZ39 in early April. Many thanks.

I can answer this one! Because you know about the refit programme, your flight won't have a refitted aircraft. You could be flying May 20th, when 6 of the 7 in the air will be refitted, but you and all the other people with change expectations will be on # 7. It would have been much better if you didn't know. Then you would certainly have got on the first refitted aircraft, the day after it was done.

:D

Well said!!!! That's how it invariably works out...isn't it??:D^

For the price that NZ charges for PPE one would think they could do a 2-4-2 layout on the 777's. They sure charge enough IMO.

Hi all ... yes, it's nice to have the extra seat pitch, but as we all know, it isn't the whole story. Lateral space is even more important for those of us with shorter legs. Sorry to say that NZ's PE is now highly uncompetative, compared to VS or QF, or now V Australia (who have managed to do 2-4-2 in their 773's).

That, combined with the 744's being slowly withdrawn (have just been trying to book HKG flights, and discovered that they have become 772 flights) , I'm finding it hard to do. I'd only book it as a means to upgrade.

For the price that NZ charges for PPE one would think they could do a 2-4-2 layout on the 777's. They sure charge enough IMO.I really don't understand a 2-4-2 preference vs 3-3-3 from someone complaining about price. You think the airline could have (in NZ's proposed 777 layout) 10%+ fewer seats and the price not go up?
Lateral space is even more important for those of us with shorter legs.:confused: I don't get it. Can you explain?

I really don't understand a 2-4-2 preference vs 3-3-3 from someone complaining about price. You think the airline could have (in NZ's proposed 777 layout) 10%+ fewer seats and the price not go up?
:confused: I don't get it. Can you explain?

I'm with Starbear.

My biggest complaint with PE is the width of the seats, not the pitch. I'm not after better food in PE, I want comfort. I'm not tall nor wide, but it only takes somebody wide sitting next to me and there goes the comfort.

I'm with Starbear.

My biggest complaint with PE is the width of the seats, not the pitch. I'm not after better food in PE, I want comfort. I'm not tall nor wide, but it only takes somebody wide sitting next to me and there goes the comfort.
Your primary consideration around paying a price premium over Y is avoiding sitting next to a fat person?

Do you think that's a preference unique to people with short legs?

I really don't understand a 2-4-2 preference vs 3-3-3 from someone complaining about price. You think the airline could have (in NZ's proposed 777 layout) 10%+ fewer seats and the price not go up?
:confused: I don't get it. Can you explain?Even if the fare would rise to compensate for the lost revenue (which I suspect may be small) it would still make the product represent better value for money IMO.

Furthermore they have lower density on the 747 don't they and there is no difference in fare for the that.

:confused: I don't get it. Can you explain?

Those of us with short legs don't really care about pitch once it goes beyond 36' or so (you can only stretch your legs out so far before the novelty wears off)... but seat width is more important. Who wants to touch elbows with your neighbour every few minutes.

I'm not especially tall or wide, but I'd prefer 36 inch pitch with 20 inch width over 40 inch pitch and 17.8 inch width any time.

I think that NZ is just being a bit lazy with its product to be honest: V Australia goes 2-4-2 instead of 3-3-3 in the same 777 cabin by using better, wider seats than in Economy class - but keeps its revenue up by only offering 36 inch pitch.

Your primary consideration around paying a price premium over Y is avoiding sitting next to a fat person?

Do you think that's a preference unique to people with short legs?

No, I'm sure it's widespread :)

NZ recognise it as far as offering paid middle seat blocking, but not in their PE product - especially on the 777.

I really don't understand a 2-4-2 preference vs 3-3-3 from someone complaining about price. You think the airline could have (in NZ's proposed 777 layout) 10%+ fewer seats and the price not go up?
:confused: I don't get it. Can you explain?

Hi, yes pleased to explain... wider seat width AND armrest width, eliminating the need to wage "elbow wars" with your neighbour. I had that pleasure even on the 2-seat side on the 744 Upper Deck to SFO a while back.

In seat width, VS at 21" is the outright winner!

I'm not especially tall or wide, but I'd prefer 36 inch pitch with 20 inch width over 40 inch pitch and 17.8 inch width any time.

I think that NZ is just being a bit lazy with its product to be honest: V Australia goes 2-4-2 instead of 3-3-3 in the same 777 cabin by using better, wider seats than in Economy class - but keeps its revenue up by only offering 36 inch pitch.

Yup. The same way UA's being lazy with economy plus. Wouldn't they just have to stick the 747 premium economy seats on the 777 to get 2-4-2? Though the 747 premium economy seats are just a bigger version of the economy seats.

I really hope that NZ do a total re-think of their Y+ product when planning for the intro of their new 773ERs (as well as eventually the 787's for the benefit of all our grandchildren ;) ).

IMHO, if any one in any position of authority at NZ is reading this, such a re-think would mean... just 38-39" pitch is plenty, but wider seats & armrests than Y class in 2-4-2- config, even at the expense of the biz class meal service, but keep the sound-cancelling headsets please. NZ really need to do this urgently, as all of their competitors (except UA, because sorry, you can't really call Econ.Plus a "premium economy" in the 2008-9 sense of the term) have wider seats for Y+ ... even that Great Late-Adopter, QF !

would that configuration have cost implications? as in higher fares

it is interesting that a few friends of mine report being quite happy with PE, but they have always been Y flyers, whereas those, on here and more experienced in premium cabins almost always seem to report the desire for something a little better

[QUOTE=jeffrocowboy;11453254]would that configuration have cost implications? as in higher fares

Sorry, don't know as not that familiar with the nuts n bolts of revenue calcs. But from a marketing point of view, it would have far more appeal and properly differentiate the PE product from those both in front of, and behind the bulkhead.

As things stand, at least on the 777s, I am finding it hard to get myself to book in PE (as opposed to standard Y class), except for the purposes of tier point earnings and cheaper upgrading to Biz.

(as well as eventually the 787's for the benefit of all our grandchildren ;) ).



They aren't called DREAMliners for nothing. Because that's all they are a dream.

Anyone going to Disneyland - the lego store there has a build your own 787 for about US$60.

They aren't called DREAMliners for nothing. Because that's all they are a dream.

Anyone going to Disneyland - the lego store there has a build your own 787 for about US$60.
And it will probably fly just as well as the current "Plastic Fanastic" plane does at the moment, which may fly mid-this year.:rolleyes:

would that configuration have cost implications? as in higher fares

Sorry, don't know as not that familiar with the nuts n bolts of revenue calcs. But from a marketing point of view, it would have far more appeal and properly differentiate the PE product from those both in front of, and behind the bulkhead.

As things stand, at least on the 777s, I am finding it hard to get myself to book in PE (as opposed to standard Y class), except for the purposes of tier point earnings and cheaper upgrading to Biz.Well the difficulty would be if PE was so good people did not fly J.

hi
does any one have any suggestion on the PE's seat(s) for the 'current' 777?
traveling next month to HKG and have not decide what's the best seat in PE yet. thanks advance

Well the difficulty would be if PE was so good people did not fly J.

Hi ... with horizontally flat beds in Biz class, I don't think there would be much danger of that happening on long flights, particularly if NZ toned down the food offerings as they exist in the current PE, and were not TOO generous with the pitch.

It's all about product differentiation.

I have found this thread most informative.
We are planning a trip to the USA and I was thinking of booking us BNE-AKL-LAX-AKL-BNE on NZ in Premium Economy.
But now it seems obvious to pay just a couple of hundred more for BNE-LAX-BNE in Premium Economy on Virgin.
Thanks.

I have found this thread most informative.
We are planning a trip to the USA and I was thinking of booking us BNE-AKL-LAX-AKL-BNE on NZ in Premium Economy.
But now it seems obvious to pay just a couple of hundred more for BNE-LAX-BNE in Premium Economy on Virgin.
Thanks.

Hi Wallaby ... well, yes & no in a way. Have a dig around in the "Timetables" section of the NZ web site for the week you want to travel. You'll find that some flights to LAX (now seem to be more the LHR continuer, NZ2) or SFO on some days of the week, are still operated with the 744s. Also, you lucky sods up there in BNE still get a scheduled 744 across the ditch, daily(?). So barring any last-minute a/c changes, you'll be in clover. Call NZ Tel.Res for seat allocation. Try for the 2-seat side of the upper deck, failing that, one of the pairs on the main deck. On the 744, PE is very well worth the money.

If you do wind up on the 772's, then there's still NZ's great cabin service levels which are still the best IMO. I'd give VAust. 8-12 months to get their act together for consistency... from what I've read, things there are still a bit hit 'n miss, as they (the cabin crews, not the tech crews...) are all newbies. But from a comfort viewpoint, yes... well... you've read what has been said in this thread!

Hi ... with horizontally flat beds in Biz class, I don't think there would be much danger of that happening on long flights, particularly if NZ toned down the food offerings as they exist in the current PE, and were not TOO generous with the pitch.

It's all about product differentiation.Well this depends if a flat bed is what they are looking for. The theory is enough people would downgrade if there was enough seat width

Well this depends if a flat bed is what they are looking for. The theory is enough people would downgrade if there was enough seat width

Best way would be to somehow get some figures from VS, seeing as they have the same biz class hardware as NZ, as well as the most generously proportioned PE around. Tho' exactly how you'd measure this ... get any sense as to how much their PE takes away from their UC, might be difficult.

Best way would be to somehow get some figures from VS, seeing as they have the same biz class hardware as NZ, as well as the most generously proportioned PE around. Tho' exactly how you'd measure this ... get any sense as to how much their PE takes away from their UC, might be difficult.

Good point. NZ have one of the most comfortable J products out there, and one of the most roomy and comfortable regular Y products, yet their Y+ product (in terms of the seat) is notably poorer, especially in the 777. Seems odd.

I don't really think there's a significant risk that many who would otherwise pay for J would decide to only pay for Y+ if the seat was made wider. The risk, however, is that if NZ don't improve the seat, that people will just choose to pay for Y rather than Y+. Or fly with other carriers...

...or fly with other carriers.

Yes, like yours truly next month. NZ38/39 to/fm. HKG have been downgraded to 772s (cue the 1960's folk group Peter,Paul & Mary's hit : "Where Have All the 744s Gone"? ) , and the loads were too high (to HKG, PE was sold out, anyway) to be guaranteed an upgrade to biz in either direction, so VS got this trip. NZ really need to completely re-think their 772 PE as a matter of urgency.

I agree, but their rethink is to double the no. of PE seats!

Yep...as 3-3-3. They don't get it, do they? Which is a great pity.

The first refitted 777, ZK-OKH, went online last week and is primarily flying Akl-Bne-Akl and Akl-Sfo-Akl on alternate days ie Thurs 16/5, Sat 18/5, Sun 20/5, Mon 21/5, Tues 23/5 ............

I have just operated on this aircraft and the new premium economy cabin looks great. The increased pitch is obvious and the cabin now feels quite spacious. 23ABCHJK have a huge amount of legroom, in fact so much that at 6ft tall I couldn't touch the bulkhead in front when stretched out. 23 DEF has less leg room but I could still stretch out comfortably. And the increased recline on all seats makes them more comfortable.

The new self service buffet area looks good.

IMHO the product is now better than on the 744.

Just my 2c, but I have to confess that I quite enjoyed my PE experience on the 777 last week.

Admittedly I was upgraded to PE from Y, but from the reviews had expected it to be a major disappointment.

On the contrary, I really enjoyed the flight. I was in 23D and had plenty of room - both in front of me and in the seat itself (I am about 75kg and 5'9ish). The service was friendly (but quite rushed - very full cabins) and every request and question was responded to quickly. My seatmates had no problems getting in and out (although it was perhaps more difficult for those in middle seats of row 24) and I have to say it was a most pleasant flight.

I quite liked the intimate cabin, so I'll be interested to see what the refitted planes look like, and whether they have that feel as well.

Interestingly, Business was the only cabin not solidly booked, so there were plenty of upgrades from Y to PE and from PE to Business. Most excellent result (esp for me!)

Thanks for the compliment :). We have a miserly 10 crew plus Concierge. currently 3 in premium classes, and 6 dedicated to economy. Generally the FSM (FA1/Purser) will assist in Y during the meal service, and Concierges worth their salt aid up front.


I wish they would revert this person back to a FA, they are just about the most useless flaps of skin on the plane, from what I can see they do nothing except suck up to passangers which is bloody annoying.

I wish they would revert this person back to a FA, they are just about the most useless flaps of skin on the plane, from what I can see they do nothing except suck up to passangers which is bloody annoying.

HEAR HEAR and they only suck up to the ones that show on the flight list as certain to gain lots of empathy from , i could not believe the one we had yvr -akl on inaugural 747 flight a few weeks back i was in BP and GE , not a flicker but all the trendies with the right profile...hmmm no i dont need a chit chat in particular but i just think they are genareally a waste of airline money (read mine as a shareholder ):mad: and dont recognise the true loyal flyers

BTW, economy class will now start at row 34 and the first 6 rows of economy in the new config will be 31", 1" less than the following rows.

The on-line seat selection tool is showing that these front rows still have 32" pitch, and the rear rows (from 58 I think) having 31".

HEAR HEAR and they only suck up to the ones that show on the flight list as certain to gain lots of empathy from , i could not believe the one we had yvr -akl on inaugural 747 flight a few weeks back i was in BP and GE , not a flicker but all the trendies with the right profile...hmmm no i dont need a chit chat in particular but i just think they are genareally a waste of airline money (read mine as a shareholder ):mad: and dont recognise the true loyal flyers

Perhaps the above 2 messages should be in the "Inflight Concierge" thread and not here, which is about the 777 refit.

I flew NZ39 HKG-LHR on the refit ZK-OKE aircraft on Friday 19th June. I was in PE, in 24D.

I agree with airboi's comments that 24ABCHJK are the places to be for legroom. However, the cabin now feels much more like "Y+" than "Business-", which is different to how it used to feel - the intimacy is definitely gone. The crew were really struggling to serve everyone, and there was minimal drinks rounds/checking on people.

The seat comfort is still OK and the extra leg room is nice, but at 3-3-3 I still struggle with the cost of PE vs. my perceived value from it on the 777.


A few other observations:
- The cabin was quite full but I don't know the percentage of upgraders. Business looked like it had 23 or 24 seats out of 26 full, PE had about 30 of 36 full. My upgrade from Y to Y+ was cleared about 2 months before the sector, after the switch from 18 seat PE to 36.
- I was unable to get a middle seat blocked so was in a full row of 3. :(
- As *E I didn't get greeted by the IFSD which struck me as unusual and a little disappointing. It is a nice gesture...
- The menu definitely is Y+ and not J-. E.g. no choice of dessert.
- After recognising a few of the crew from other flights this year, the service stepped up in quality/frequency, but it was definitely on the low side. The FA I talked to said they really struggled with 4 crew serving the bigger PE cabin and J.
- The crew did a good job considering they were short one crewmember due to illness. At least one of the pilots came back to help out during the meal service in Y!
- People who travel in PE but put their kids in Y should be shot. I had the pleasure of being disturbed 5-10 times on the flight by 24E's young children coming to visit her (and requesting to be taken to the toilet).
- One of the toilets for BP/PE went u/s during the flight which caused significant congestion.
- New Zealand is still very small and I ran into people I knew on the plane!
- IFE had a few issues which resulted in music tracks skipping and videos not playing smoothly all the time.
- For some reason, once again, my upgrade has caused my BP to print with NIL airpoints which means a manual credit is required. I didn't notice this until I was on the plane :(.

I entirely agree with the comments about the Concierge. We were on a 747 flight BNE/AKL when the crew for Stevie Wonder were travelling. These people were given separate boarding (ignoring Business, Koru and Air NZ frequent travellers). Then in the Business cabin the Concierge arrived and sucked up to the Stevie Wonder Crew (just the crew, not the star). We were ignored, not even offered a newspaper.

As far as 777 PE is concerned, I try to avoid because I just don't like the 3,3,3 configuration. Some years ago we flew United in cattle class, our first time on a 777. They had a 2, 5, 2 configuration which was excellent for us. Surely, Air NZ could consider 2, 4, 2 for PE. It would be so much better. Pity they didn't think about it before the latest refit.