Women Travelers - Are Women Treated Differenty Inflight?

I was intrigued when I posted a thread recently regarding crew behavior and received several comments regarding ways in which women travelers are treated differently from men who may be seated right next to them. I knew it happened, but realized that I did not understand how frustrating it is to so many. Examples:

1. Flight attendant offers to hang male passenger's coat and does not bother to offer the same to female passenger.

2. Addresses male passenger by name but neglect to do so when speaking to a female passenger.

WHAT other examples do you have?

Thanks,

Please continue to follow this thread in the Women Travelers Forum.
Thanks..
Obscure2k
TravelBuzz Moderator

Skipping over me COMPLETELY when sitting next to a male passenger and male passengers sitting behind me when the FA's are coming around asking about a drink after takeoff and the meal choice.

Is it just me (a Male Traveler) or does it seem strange to have this post moved to the Women Travelers forum? Is this yet another example of Women Travelers being treated differently? Just curious.

My experience with being treated differently isn't based on gender rather it's on appearance (attire).

When I'm traveling on holiday from a beach destination and my attire is very casual (ie, fitted t-shirt, cropped pants, sandals), the service I receive may differ slightly from the person in business attire. This isn't the norm, but it has happened on occasion.

I've never been skipped over during meal service nor had an FA not take my coat. Also, if FA is referring to passengers as Mr. ___, I've always been addressed as Ms. ___.

It's unfortunate that some of you have experienced gender biased treatment. This is completely unacceptable and I would promptly write a formal complaint should this ever happen.

Yes, I am a man and I have noticed throughout my adult life that I am treated far more deferentially than the women around me, inflight and elsewhere. I once accompanied my fiance' to a store to return some merchandise and she was infuriated because the clerk kept addressing me when speaking, even though I had no part in the transaction at all. He continued, even after she pointedly told him to address her. Things like that seem to happen with regularity. I have some ideas on why this may occur, but that's way OT.

Usually (especially by male FAs/oursers) I am treated better and asked ahead of my husband, so no complaints here.

I find that I usually get better service than my husband, even though I am generally more demanding. I think this may be because I ask very, very nicely. ;)

There are threads on this topic available if you want to rehash the topic ... once inflight, I don't have any particular complaints. The most noted difference is the when (or even if) I'm asked if I'd like my coat hung up. When I'm in the back of the cabin with the hangars behind my seat, I usually hang it myself - its quicker and easier. If that option isn't available, I find I can sit for awhile with the coat if I wait to be approached (and the men are almost always approached). So I offer it to the FA with the request to hang it up or when the person next to me is asked, they ask me as an after thought as they just then realize I might actually have something that needs to be hung up. No biggie because I usually keep the coat with me, and I enjoy watching (and sometimes timing) the interaction to see when they actually get around to asking.

I used to travel a lot with my boss, who was male. FAs would often assume we were a couple :rolleyes:, and when handing out any customer service questionnaires, he was always given it to fill in (LH, I'm pointing at you in particular :mad: ).

OTOH, I did get my meal order taken first when travelling on a PNR with a BA gold person - he was not happy since I'm a Tesco blue, but obviously, ladies first :D

I am always somewhat amused with DL FA's who ignore me in the FC cabin. *note/ not all!
My seatmate is 80% of the time a male, who usually takes great exception to their lack of respect when taking their coat, drink order, etc before me. We always have a chuckle when I am referred to as "their wife"!

They wish!!

Women (and minorities) are definitely treated differently. My wife and I were traveling in business class on a transatlantic. The FA addressed us as Dr. and Mrs. Babu. I snickered and told her that my wife is the Dr., not me. But throughout the flight, they all kept referring to me as Dr. Babu and her as Mrs. Babu. Whole crew was very sweet and attentive, FWIW...just couldn't get the titles right.

There are threads on this topic available if you want to rehash the topic ... once inflight, I don't have any particular complaints. The most noted difference is the when (or even if) I'm asked if I'd like my coat hung up. When I'm in the back of the cabin with the hangars behind my seat, I usually hang it myself - its quicker and easier. If that option isn't available, I find I can sit for awhile with the coat if I wait to be approached (and the men are almost always approached). So I offer it to the FA with the request to hang it up or when the person next to me is asked, they ask me as an after thought as they just then realize I might actually have something that needs to be hung up. No biggie because I usually keep the coat with me, and I enjoy watching (and sometimes timing) the interaction to see when they actually get around to asking.

When you can make it into a time study rather than an irritation, it does make it easier :) But not right.

I was "told" yesterday on a flight when I hung my jacket in the closet behind first class. I wrote 'coach' on the tag, but when retrieving my jacket during deplaning, was informed that I had caused mass confusion in first class when they went to hang back coats. They said I should have told them I was putting it in there. I would have if there was anyone around during boarding!!

Usually (especially by male FAs/oursers) I am treated better and asked ahead of my husband, so no complaints here.

Glad to hear that it is not everyone!

I do get ignored a lot when I'm on an aircraft (skipped over for drinks, meal choices, etc), but I'd assumed that was because I'm very short and slim, and at a glance look very young, so maybe they either didn't see me, or thought I was a child.

Since others suffer from the same problem, perhaps it is a gender thing. I'm almost always surrounded by male colleagues, and they have no trouble getting attention.

I can't recall ever being treated differently.

My observation is that I (and other women) are treated better. I'm always served or spoken-to first when seated next to a guy, and male FAs treat me better (except once when a male FA was hitting on the guy I was traveling with). Also, I'm always able to carry and extra bag or two; my purse has never been considered a carry-on, and that's a perk I like :)

Just yestorday I was in FC, in ORD. A male flight attendant came by and asked my seat mate if he can hang up his jacket and completely ignored me. I am a EXP on AA. I think most FA's were trained in the 1850's, when women were not allowed to vote! I rarely travel domestic, always in BC, on a full fare ticket, and still get treated by FA's as a second class citizen, regardless how I dress - business or casual. May be it's just an AA issue.

I find it varies considerably with no obvious predictor (eg. male v. female FA, what I'm wearing, etc.) on what direction it will go. Sometimes I am *always* offered drink, meal choice, etc. first when seated next to a male. Other times I only get my coat hung up when I make a pointed request -after the male next to me has had his hung and he is called by name and I am not. And still other times it seems dead even in the treatment. And again, totally unpredictable.

I've never been treated differently no matter what class I'm sitting in. I tend to be very comfortable when I fly, especially long-haul overnight, and will often be in yoga pants and a t-shirt - even in 1st class. When dressed thus, I look much younger than I am. But I've never perceived any difference in service, neither positive nor negative.

lol it made me laugh i remember when i went to london in British Airways and they didnt know i was deaf woman cuz i told them, so they were nice to me and offered and served me expensive drinks i was almost getting drunk gosh! xD

I noticed that my coat never seems to get taken. One time I had to force it at the FA right before push back. I had been holding it in my lap in the typical fashion of everyone else. I thought maybe they just didn't have other coats to take so they weren't on it, then prior to landing I realized they had taken coats from everyone else in F too. I had been paying attention to the FAs and I don't know why they didn't want to take my coat. Now I guess I have a reason.

I usually wear my coat because I get cold in flight and no one has asked to take my coat when I'm wearing it, but I don't mind that time.

What I think is funny is when my boyfriend and I go to hotels on my points they always refer to him as Mr Gj83 even if we have registered him as a guest. In Las Vegas he booked the room, paid for the room etc but I was a registered guest. The referred to him as Mr. Gj83 the whole time. I never get called by his last name.

I am often one of one or two females in first, I dress casually, jeans and long sleeve shirt. I haven't experienced any different treatment on an airplane, in fact being a 1K I am frequently approached first :D. Me and my SO frequently travel together we are both 1K I sit next to the window and I am almost always asked about meal choice first. I think ppl can see "discrimination" if they want to see it. I am not saying that no posters that have posted they have experienced this haven't actually experienced this, just that not every interaction needs to be dissected.

Just my observation:

I have noticed that men are more aggressive about getting their coats hung than women. Women seem to hold on waiting to be asked or keep the coat low on their lap (there are exceptions of course :D), whereas with men the minute the purser is heading in their direction they are holding out the coat. This is what I do as well, if I don't want it hung I kind of have it behind me and still I have had FA's ask me if I want it hung.

My SO just told me he was on a flight this weekend and the woman sitting next to him hung up her own coat and tossed her small bag into the closet and sat down LOL.

Like several of the posters above, I have trouble getting my coat hung. In my 12 years or so as a UA elite, I was usually the first or second in my cabin (F or C as the case might be) to board the plane and invariably the last to have my coat hung. AA's not much better.

Women should be served first as a matter of common courtesy and etiquette. The flight attendants certainly should know that much about customer service. I think the problem with the coats is not one of discrimination but one of attitude and practicality. The guys give the FA their coat right away. They are proactive about it. They do not wait until the FA comes. For the FAs this is practical and they just go and hang the coats. It would be a little tough for them to say:" Sir, how disrespectful you are. You should know that we will hang the ladies' coats first." So probably this is just a matter of the one crying the loudest being served first. And women are usually not raised to affirm themselves as they could or should.

Till

For all the women who stated they have problems getting their coats hung, I am curious if the coat in question is an overcoat (the type worn outdoors to protect from the cold), or a suit blazer? If the latter, I've noticed more women keep theirs on, while more men remove theirs at more opportunities. Maybe the FAs are picking up on this distinction?

But even then, I think the FA should at least ask the question as he/she did the male counterpart.

For all the women who stated they have problems getting their coats hung, I am curious if the coat in question is an overcoat (the type worn outdoors to protect from the cold), or a suit blazer? If the latter, I've noticed more women keep theirs on, while more men remove theirs at more opportunities. Maybe the FAs are picking up on this distinction?

But even then, I think the FA should at least ask the question as he/she did the male counterpart.

I flew to San Francisco two weeks ago and was wearing a heavy coat. It was cold in Seattle and San Francisco so I brought a heavier coat. I sat in my seat holding my coat up trying to catch the attention of a flight attendant while they took the coat of they guy next to me, and surrounding people's coats. Mine was still in my outstretched hand. Finally a flight attendant who came up through coach looked at me and asked if I wanted the coat hung up. She hung it up and labeled the hangar with my seat.
THEN, when the flight attendants were handing coats back out........they didn't give me my coat. I had to grab it out of the closet as I was leaving. Then a flight attendant looked at me and said, "oh was that your coat?"

I swear......seat 2A is the black hole...........

There was quite a lengthy thread started by kokonutz on this subject (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/women-travelers/599199-you-were-right-i-wrong.html).

I demonstrated this to additional FTer non-believers on a Coast-to-Coast Inflight DO last January.

I think most of these posts relate to US travel, in Asia all passengers in premium cabin are well treated usually and in Europe it seems more trouble comes from female premium travellers than men

At the RCC in Chicago the man in front of me was offered 2 drink coupons upon check in. I had to ask for them. Would not have noticed except that the gentleman was my husband on the same international itinerary with the same 1K status.

I think most of these posts relate to US travel, in Asia all passengers in premium cabin are well treated usually and in Europe it seems more trouble comes from female premium travellers than men
:confused: Sterotyping just a bit there, are you?

And women are usually not raised to affirm themselves as they could or should.Again with the stereotype, just not sure what century is being discussed. Read the thread again and I don't think you'll see much about men standing there pushing their coat at an FA other than in your own post.

And women are usually not raised to affirm themselves as they could or should.

Till

Maybe, but not in my house! I hope my wife and I are teaching our daughter that she has the same responsibilities, rights and privileges as any male counterpart.

I think most of these posts relate to US travel, in Asia all passengers in premium cabin are well treated usually and in Europe it seems more trouble comes from female premium travellers than men
Sorry, I'm in Europe and have already posted about the problems I've had as a female traveller, and the noticeably different treatment I and colleagues have had on occasions.

Nice attempt at generalisation, but just not true.

:confused: Sterotyping just a bit there, are you?

Again with the stereotype, just not sure what century is being discussed. Read the thread again and I don't think you'll see much about men standing there pushing their coat at an FA other than in your own post.

Unfortunately, I don't think this is a stereotype. We are well into the 21st century and I just recently had an experience where young women age 25 were showing just that kind of behavior. It can be seen again and again. In the thread there is only one post where a woman said she stretched her coat out toward the FA and it still took some time to be taken. The others didn't specify. I could bet that they were more passive.

Besides, the coat example is only one example and not a good one. Too many factors weigh in. There is practicality and there is the Who-cries-loudest factor. And, as someone else said, suit coats are often kept on by the ladies whereas men tend to take them off. Between those things it is easy to see how a woman's coat could not be taken first and then that be construed as some form of discrimination.

If it's for a food order, I can see no reason why in a two-seat configuration, the woman shouldn't be asked first what she wants. In a three seat config with a female in the center seat, I could understand proceeding in a linear fashion to keep the ordering simple. This would mean asking her second.

Maybe, but not in my house! I hope my wife and I are teaching our daughter that she has the same responsibilities, rights and privileges as any male counterpart.

Bravo, Babu! That's the way it should be. Chivalry aside, which I think should stay, I firmly believe that women should have the sane responsibilities, rights and privileges and opportunities and salaries as men.

I've never noticed any difference whatsoever. Just flew ATL-BOS and BOS-ATL on DL last week and in both instances my overcoat and blazer (which I'd removed) were handed over and drink orders taken as soon as was feasible. ATL-SEA and SEA-ATL this weekend, so I'll see if I notice any difference when it comes to meal service.

I find I'm usually treated quite well, but I did have an experience yesterday that reminded me of this thread. I was in an exit row. There were several men in the exit rows and two women. The flight attendant went through to make sure everyone knew their responsibilities. I fly this carrier a lot and have always just been asked to provide an audible "yes". This flight attendant asked that of the men, but of the women she played 20 questions. Basically: When would we open the door? When would we not open the door? etc. That she only asked these of the two women (not seated together, but in different rows) and not of the men makes me think she definitely had an anti-female-traveler bias. I slept and paid no attention to the service she provided and if she differentiated that based on sex as well.

I think most of these posts relate to US travel, in Asia all passengers in premium cabin are well treated usually and in Europe it seems more trouble comes from female premium travellers than men

When it comes to premium class women I've noticed several types of women travelers and it seems there is 1 type that stand out. They are easy to spot because they are usually wearing the latest fashion that looks downright silly to anyone not in the height of fashion. That outfit they spend a fortune on to make them look like some random animal. Those women are usually demanding. "water, 3 ice cubes, touch of lemon, clean the scoop before you touch my ice cubes, I need a fresh bottle of water, not one you've poured out of for other people...etc" These women are few and far between on my flights. I've seen maybe 1 per year.

Female business travelers come in different flavors, but the demanding ones seem to be direct, but not overly demanding. "Water, no ice, don't fill it too full". They are no different than demanding male business travelers.

Hello all,

I am 50 years of age and when it's apparent that I am travelling on business I get treated differently and on the same par with the more important "businessmen" travelling. Coats drinks and refills get dealt with in a more timely manner. Baby take out that laptop and a couple of reports and start working and it's apparent you are actually a business traveller and not a trailing spouse or holiday maker and it DOES, for me, seem to make a difference. though in Asia where I do most of my long hauls, it also means I am a bit of an anomaly ...Air China is the absolute worst every bloke on the plane screaming into his phone prior to take off will get a drink before I will, in fact I had a MAJOR altercation with a male FA who demanded I turn off my phone (which was in flight mode) and I was actually watching a movie on it, then shook his finger in my face and threatened to have the police pick me up,, until a male passanger intervened and told him to back off. Needless to say, I don't fly AC unless I have no other choice at all.

I find often it's about how I am dressed. I do a LOT of long haul flights and sometimes, I just can't be bothered with the suit and makeup and do a tracksuit and trainers, which almost always results in my boarding pass being checked twice and a difference in how I am served. On the other hand, if I get on board in a business suit and sit down and start sending email on my blackberry until the last possible moment, I seem to get a different level of respect and the service that goes with it.

the thing that I really hated was the Dubai airport lounge, as a woman travelling alone I always felt creeped out in the Business Lounge, because I am *gasp* also a smoker, and it just felt icky to go to the smoking area and be the only woman in there at the time and see men surprised and staring some of them noticably disapproving..., hoping the new Terminal 3 lounge in Dubai will ease some of that, many people are complaining about it's large size, I am hoping that provides me with some places I can sit and not be stared at...

Another thing that helps me lots is my deep southern accent. As an american living abroad for nearly ten years, I don't forget the occassional "thank you kindly" said in my most Scarlet O'hara drawl, outside the US this usually prompts a question about where I am from which then creates the "personal connection" with the FA that one requires to get exemplary service...INSIDE the US it just means, I am a hick who accidentally got into business class probably because I won the lottery....:p

But it's a shame that I have sunk to that level of manipualtion as in realizing I need to make that "connection" in order to get the same level of service as my male counterparts... I do it so often that I hadn't thought about it until i started reading this thread.... i am a bad evil woman who will manipulate in order to get my champagne while it is still cold....yes,, yes I am...;)

I've been treated equally or better than other passengers (male or female - I don't really pay much attention to other passengers' gender) nearby.

However, I can't really say if that would be the case if I didn't hold the frequent flyer status, as I haven't travelled as a non-status passenger a lot.

I am 50 years of age and...
I have sunk to that level of manipualtion as in realizing I need to make that "connection" in order to get the same level of service as my male counterparts...

I'm older than you and have been traveling on business since the 70's, with much of it international. I've experienced very little difference in treatment I could really attribute to gender, and none for many years. So my two cents:

While aging has in no way increased my patience, I have learned to observe and think before I take something personally. Yes, there've been occasions when my coat was one of the last hung - but I was in a window seat and watched aisle pax sticking their coats in the FA's face. That crabby FA who snapped at me? I heard or saw him do it to someone else before the flight was over. (That said, should I ever go to China, I'd avoid AC. The pax sound even worse than the FA's.)

I do agree your dress can affect your treatment by FA's and airport personnel, though this also applies to men. In fact, I think women have the advantage - "business casual" for men isn't as comfortable as some things we can get away with. So if you've noticed you get second-class treatment in the sneakers and track suit, why are you still wearing them? You'd be just as unconstricted in ballet flats and a long knit skirt & sweater. For a long-haul, you can wear those over a tank top and leggings, which become no-show PJ's, and work as well as the track suit for the hotel gym or lounging in your room. You'd still have to pack the trainers if you work out, but you can wear the skirt & sweater more places than a track suit, so less wasted luggage space overall.

Maybe, but not in my house! I hope my wife and I are teaching our daughter that she has the same responsibilities, rights and privileges as any male counterpart.

Babu: I'm impressed that your list begins with "responsibilities". Well done you!^

@PanAMFT-- I thought about what you said in your post regarding whether to take something personally or not, and I think I'm still in the the right zone with my thoughts about lack of service due to gender.

That being said, you also need to realize (and you couldn't know this because I didn't think of it until your thoughtful comments caused me too) that 99% of my business class experience has been in and around Asia, China, Vietnam, and other places where traditionally, women don't get and men do. SO...do I suffer from lack of similar service?,, Not when I fly to London. Not when I fly in the US. But I am correct that every single time I have felt "second class citizened",, it's been in areas where traditionally women are not generally well respected in general, and to make the point even more interesting for me at least, it's not Male FA's who tend to do the evil deeds, it's the females. Perhaps more cultural than intentional but none the less perceived by me as gender specific most of the time.

As to knit skirts versus track suits,, I'm entitled to the same treatment if I am in a set of Daisy dukes (well past that age though!) and I don't show up in a bling bling tracksuit, with blinding white trainers. I chose on occassion (depending on my schedule when I arrive at my destination and how many long hauls I've done in a row )to dress how I feel comfortable, which either means a full on business suit, OR a tracksuit and trainers as i need the arch support I can get with a good set of trainers and I hate that old "cybil sheppard " look of trainers with skirts ....and that's my right and it should not influence the treatment I receive by anyone anywhere.

But again, on introspection, it's again geographically influenced, in this case in reverse, when flying in China, or Vietnam no one cares what I have on, when flying in the UK, it can make a difference and the worst treatment I've ever had when dressed down was at LAX.

So thanks for the comments that caused me to think about life today! :) but i stand by my personal perception based on my experiences that gender based service and the occassional slights associated with being a lone travelling female,, are indeed alive and well, but in my experience mostly in the areas where one might actually expect and anticipate them and that I am guilty of applying a western standard to a non western environment....which; considering my line of business is something I should not, after all these years still be doing.

As to avoiding Air China, yes indeed, just say NO, if at all possible, worst airline in the history of airlines I think! though they did try to enhance service prior to the Olympics, they are back to their previous performance now that the great event is over, and frankly, didn't do that well with their customer service upgrades anyway. and you are correct the Pax are often far worse than the FA's but the FA's don't care and they know darn well that a complaint by a laowai is going to result in nothing, international airline or not, just stay away, consider going by canoe if you need to use Air china, the experience will be more fulfilling and less stressful!

@Babu,, nicely pointed out by the poster previous to me,, that was a STUNNING statement about responsibility just a well done from an old country gal!:D

I was brought up believing I am equal, and have spent the whole of my working life in engineering (where interestingly some people have tried to make it their lifes work to persuade me I am not....). I believe also that if one looks, one can find discrimination where it does not really exist.

However, strangely, I booked flight for myself and my husband on AF recently, paid for on my credit card, I have the frequent flyer programme membership whereas he does not, I listed myself as the lead passenger, and it was my e-mail address against the booking. Yet.... all the communications were addressesd to his name with me as the companion. Why would that be? Anyone else experienced this?

[
However, strangely, I booked flight for myself and my husband on AF recently, paid for on my credit card, I have the frequent flyer programme membership whereas he does not, I listed myself as the lead passenger, and it was my e-mail address against the booking. Yet.... all the communications were addressesd to his name with me as the companion. Why would that be? Anyone else experienced this?[/QUOTE]

Even funnier, on a vacation in Germany with my grandson (12 yrs old), I arranged for hotel, but all correspondence was addressed to him and on check in kept putting his name on the bill, etc and I have a PhD (on my profile), in Germany thought they would be referring to me as Dr but no, Herr Grandchild!

Even funnier, on a vacation in Germany with my grandson (12 yrs old), I arranged for hotel, but all correspondence was addressed to him and on check in kept putting his name on the bill, etc and I have a PhD (on my profile), in Germany thought they would be referring to me as Dr but no, Herr Grandchild!

Did you put Ph.D. in your profile or Dr.? Most Germans probably don't know what Ph.D. means. We use Dr.. Germans are quite easily influenced by academic titles and the Dr. actually becomes part of your name; it is written even into your passport. So the reason was probably that they didn't know what a Ph.D. means.

In terms of addressing correspondence the old fashioned, formal (and for many Germans correct way) is to address the letters to Mr. and Mrs. John Smith, for example. Historically this has to do with gender bias, of course. However, political correctness the American way is something most Germans despise as absurd and hypocritical. So writing he/she in even an academic paper seems silly to us. In Latin grammar (which German is based on) the general person would always be a "he". Again, historically, that is the result of gender bias but I think it is not to be seen as such today.

In actual life German women and gender roles (even for men) are MUCH more liberated than in the US. Unfortunately, salaries and jobs do still experience discrimination in Germany as they do in the US.

Till

[...] political correctness the American way is something most Germans despise as absurd and hypocritical. So writing he/she in even an academic paper seems silly to us. In Latin grammar (which German is based on) the general person would always be a "he". Again, historically, that is the result of gender bias but I think it is not to be seen as such today.

Hmm.. admittedly I never use the he/she lingo myself and find it ugly and awkward BUT have you ever noticed how many of these supposedly "general" discourses will shift sudenly and seamlessly from "he", "his job", "his car" etc to "HIS WIFE"? General person indeed! Try reading closely like this for a while and believe me, you'll never look at this issue the same way again.

Lingo aside, I simply cannot believe you actually think of German gender roles as "much more liberated than in the US". In the experience of myself as well as pretty much everyone I know commuting between the two countries, the opposite is the case. As a case in point, for all the talk about the "mommy track" the single earner/housewife model in particular is MUCH more entrenched, both institutionally and culturally, in Germany than the US. Same for working relationships - just why do you think so many German women, working in Germany, find it so much easier to to deal with the corporate culture of American, rather than German, companies?

Let me see if I understand you correctly. So these women you are referring to are German, they live in Germany but they are working for American companies. Correct? And they like that better than working for German companies? I can only speculate, maybe the American companies pay better but they still get German contracts and benefits and unemployment protection under German labor law, plus they wouldn't pay as much for schools and childcare centers as in the US, or maybe the American companies have stronger anti-discrimination policies and a more politically correct culture that makes it nicer to work there. I have no idea.

But when I compare young women (20-30) in the US and in Germany, the women in the US seem to define themselves and their role in society much more through marriage and family i.e. through men, than through their own potential as female human beings. The purpose of going to college seems to be to acquire the Mrs. title. I tell all of my students (UT Austin) that it is super important they actually learn a job and keep on doing that job so they don't depend on men financially or mentally (feeling worthy).

You can even track this phenomenon in popular culture in series like SitC, Desperate Housewives, dating shows etc.

Women here also marry sooner than in Germany. On the other hand the divorce rate is even higher; not that the German divorce rate is anything to be proud of. The age for becoming a mother is also lower here with a shocking number of teenage pregnancies (this has to do as much with emancipation as with education). At the same time, it is not uncommon to re-marry two or even three times. Most German women have learned their lesson after one or two times and will not marry yet another time.

All of these are things that can be tracked and analyzed with numbers, as well as culturally and historically. Individual experiences will always differ until you collect them and recognize that there are indeed patterns.

The single earner/ housewife model might be more entrenched in Germany as you say. I do not have any numbers on that. However, it looks like that's going to change considering the demographics in birth rate and enrollments and the job market. Besides that, just the fact that the woman (must) work, too, to fulfill material needs or even basic needs like healthcare and education, doesn't necessarily mean that the woman is more emancipated. It certainly means that the woman now has to do even more stuff. She has to take care not only of home, hubby and kids but she needs to help in supporting the family financially. This may give her personal fulfillment because she might be happy in a job where she can show how great she is and that gives her a welcome distraction from other duties. But it might also add extra stress on the family life. This is possibly one of the greatest contributors to the high divorce rates and the high re-marriage rates. The fact that social support is lacking means one alone can hardly swing it.

As a man, I do not have the double consciousness of a woman (this in itself is an arguable academic construct), however, I try my darnedest to not be blind and listen a lot to these discussions among students and friends. My GF (a French woman with considerable knowledge of feminism and decently emancipated herself) also fills me in on many things I would otherwise not notice.

Since we are talking about gender roles, it is good to notice that there are male roles, too. These male roles seem to be even more archaic in the US than in Germany. There are many things that are entirely normal for German men that would be viewed derogatively as metrosexual here. Dress and grooming come to mind first. Then there is the entire hunting, gun and sports culture complex. Or the fact that a lot of men seem to have no interest in how the house is decorated, and thus they let their wives take care of that. They go from being a son to being a husband but in any case there is a woman into whose care they love to surrender themselves.
My concrete example comes from a hobby of mine. I like to smoke cigars. On a cigar forum that I frequent there are a lot (most) of guys who are relegated by their wives to smoke their cigars in a corner of the garage. There they install themselves a little private space with a small TV, an old chair, some sports paraphernalia, a fridge and a space heater. Very cozy! These guys are literally banned from the house and they happily give in. Happy wife, happy life. The entire 'man cave' idea is very American, the gender division clearly visible and even the linguistic connotation of a cave is pretty clear.

Lastly, think of the American dating ritual which is very rigid in most cases (to put it crudely, men pay, women lay). Or the expected engagement ring that is not only a symbol of love but can also be viewed as a bribe/payment, with a bigger (more expensive) is better attitude in the sense of he is making a bigger investment in the woman or a bigger sacrifice, and in the sense of showing to other women the status of the husband (catch). Finally, there is an undeniable stake setting function.

So, yes, considering these cultural and partly subjective impressions and the other more objectifiable facts, I'd venture to say that women (and men) are more emancipated in Germany than in the US. This is not to be understood as an insult to American women, nor as a compliment to German women. A lot remains to be done on both sides; men and women + east and west of the Atlantic.

Till

Sorry for the long-winded and rather tangential post. I hope it adds to the discussion anyway.

Interesting if tangential thoughts. Bringing it back rather more travel related - and following on from lasthurrah's thoughts about Asia as well, when staying in the Bangkok Hilton (the points earning one which is now the Conrad I believe, not the drug smuggling one ;)), I actually complained. I was there on business, as part of a UK trade mission. If I went to the bar myself, it was almost impossible to get served unless I called over one of the many bar girls standing around doing nothing, studiously ignoring me. If I went in with one of my trade mission colleagues, even if I ordered, they were handled the bill. That would not have been acceptable if I had been entertaining clients.

The general manager did write a very apologetic letter, promising to do some training of staff to address this issue.

In the case of bars and restaurants, I have found it useful to act like the men and raise a hand whilst hollering the word for Waitress, which would get me KILLEd in any other country. At least in some cities they use a softer word, which means... pretty girl,, but you are still expected to deliver it an astounding decibel level. then loudly demand the check, which will still mostly likely be handed to the most affluent looking male at the table, or more often, to the oldest because to hand it to a female in front of him would be considered an insult to him.

About the only hotel in Asia I don't see being run in a very chinese way are Marriott's though have had the occassional glitch, but in their case when I complained I got comped upwards and a real effort made to apologise,,, for a desk clerk asking me why I wanted to be on the executive floor, and being overheard by his manager, who promptly put me in a massive suite for the rest of my stay before I had a chance to say very much more than,, because I AM an excutive and own an international company, who by the way books a lot of conference rooms with Marriott....

I've seen a few chinese men do that Waitress call on planes, usually Air china national flights, ,,, and the FA's jump just as fast,,, wasn't pretty when a fellow tried it on a BA flight to Beijing I was on during the Olympics though... I kept wondering what they DID to that drink he demanded after calling them "waitress!!!!" after looking it up in his handy chinese to english translator, you could hear the little electronic voice giving him the chinese word and then the pronunciation for waitress, which he dutifully practiced prior to then yelling it very loudly while snapping his fingers... (I swear it's true!) ,, it took them forever to bring his tea,, and I am betting it was not a pleasant thing to watch it being made,, no doubt a lot of attention was paid to the cleanliness of the cup :p ... she did point out the use of the call button, for future occurances, and he spent a lot of time using it much to my amusement would give the FA exactly 10 seconds to show up at his seat and would start finger snapping again... they had no problem moving my seat for me as I was next to the guy and ready to deck him myself.

Poor thing, I wrote her a comment card for extraordinary customer service and put it in the pursers hand before I got off the plane that day she deserved it.

I have also been treated differently as a woman -- although perhaps more because of my age (29, and I look five to 10 years younger than that depending on what I'm wearing). I've experienced the delay in taking my heavy overcoat, even as I hold it out to the FA as s/he walked through the aisle. Male FAs touch me far more than any of the male passengers (on my most recent DFW-SNA leg, one went as far as rubbing my shoulders outside the restroom and asking if it "felt good").

However, it's not all bad. Pretty much every FA brings me extra cookies. ^

Male FAs touch me far more than any of the male passengers (on my most recent DFW-SNA leg, one went as far as rubbing my shoulders outside the restroom and asking if it "felt good").

However, it's not all bad. Pretty much every FA brings me extra cookies. ^

Wow, that's ballsy. How did you react? Are you happy, after the fact, with your reaction?

I mean, I'm a man, and I'd be pretty stunned if a female FA did that to me and VERY stunned if it was a male. ;) To do that to a foreign woman is a serious breach of good manners.

I can imagine the craziest scenes ensuing from that point on...

Till

Lasthurrah, of course you’re entitled to wear what’s comfortable to you, and it shouldn’t affect your treatment. Your reply forced me to consider whether my suggestions were entirely motivated by helpfulness, or might have reflected some dress snobbism of my own. I didn’t like the answer much, so I’ll work on that.

Okay, I'm convinced about the service in Asia - what a bummer. I’ve always been willing to make allowances for attitude based on cultural thinking, but not on the basic customer equation of value received for value paid. (If my service didn't come with the same smiles and deference, okay - but no way I was keeping my mouth shut if I didn't get the service at all, or at least relatively promptly.) Not that it sounds like you or Jenbel have a thing to learn from me about speaking up, taking it up the food chain, or finding somewhere else more deserving of your business.

Bringing it back rather more travel related - and following on from lasthurrah's thoughts about Asia as well, when staying in the Bangkok Hilton (the points earning one which is now the Conrad I believe, not the drug smuggling one ;)), I actually complained. I was there on business, as part of a UK trade mission. If I went to the bar myself, it was almost impossible to get served unless I called over one of the many bar girls standing around doing nothing, studiously ignoring me. If I went in with one of my trade mission colleagues, even if I ordered, they were handled the bill. That would not have been acceptable if I had been entertaining clients.

The general manager did write a very apologetic letter, promising to do some training of staff to address this issue.Good for you! I think it's ridiculous to wallow in being a victim. Actually, I think it's pathetic. You, however, wouldn't put up with such second-class treatment and did something about it. Speak up ladies, like Jenbel did.

Women should be served first as a matter of common courtesy and etiquette. The flight attendants certainly should know that much about customer service. I think the problem with the coats is not one of discrimination but one of attitude and practicality. The guys give the FA their coat right away. They are proactive about it. They do not wait until the FA comes. For the FAs this is practical and they just go and hang the coats. It would be a little tough for them to say:" Sir, how disrespectful you are. You should know that we will hang the ladies' coats first." So probably this is just a matter of the one crying the loudest being served first. And women are usually not raised to affirm themselves as they could or should.


I'm unable to agree with this. Asking for equality but expecting "ladies first" is mutually exclusive. I enjoy some of the perks I get as a female, but I can't expect them and complain when a male receives better treatment over me.

I'm unable to agree with this. Asking for equality but expecting "ladies first" is mutually exclusive. I enjoy some of the perks I get as a female, but I can't expect them and complain when a male receives better treatment over me.
^ +1

I'm unable to agree with this. Asking for equality but expecting "ladies first" is mutually exclusive. I enjoy some of the perks I get as a female, but I can't expect them and complain when a male receives better treatment over me.

Logically, you are right! ^

But, as a man, I am glad that you think so, and, as a woman, you should be glad that I think the way I do. I will try to be courteous and chivalrous as best I can in everyday minor matters (I do fail sometimes), and still promote equality for women in major matters, and even extra protection in extraordinary matters like human rights and war.

There is even a point to be made for a sort of affirmative action for women. On a global scale, the efforts we make in education and healthcare will be paid back manifold when invested in women. Taking care of better education and healthcare with high minimum standards for ALL women (without neglecting men, so this is going to require an extra effort) is the single best investment the human race can make in peace and the sustainability of life on this planet.

End of touchy, feely sermon. ;)

Till

Women should be served first as a matter of common courtesy and etiquette.

If they keep their mouths shut, do what they're told, and assume their proper place in society (and if she can afford to fly, she can afford a properly-fitted corset and gloves). Treating women any differently than men, as far as courtesies are concerned, went out the window when women attained all the rights men have, except the right to be drafted. In 2009, there is no excuse for giving any gender (including the ones you're not sure about :D) any advantage or disadvantage over another on a plane, except for pregnant women.

So writing he/she in even an academic paper seems silly to us.

It's silly to me (a non-German), and I absolutely hate writing awkwardly like that, but I have been criticised so much for not writing he/she (or even she/he as some told me to write!). I now sometimes write 'he/she', or my hated 'they' without thinking about it. It's rather sad, really - all in the name of political correctness, without achieving anything but my resentment towards having to write in an awkward manner. To me, 'he' is a perfectly acceptable way of expressing both he and she.

As for restaurants and bars - I have had no problem anywhere eating on my own or having a drink at a bar while waiting for the restaurant to open if I get there too early etc. I get pretty attentive, nice service where-ever that can be expected, from both waiters and waitresses. I do not think I am treated any differently from anyone, be that male or female. Maybe I'm simply too thick-skinned to notice any disadvantage as a female, but I genuinely have never felt disadvantaged as a female. Maybe I've been in a very, very heavily male-dominated industry, so that may influence it a bit though.

It's silly to me (a non-German), and I absolutely hate writing awkwardly like that, but I have been criticised so much for not writing he/she (or even she/he as some told me to write!). I now sometimes write 'he/she', or my hated 'they' without thinking about it. It's rather sad, really - all in the name of political correctness, without achieving anything but my resentment towards having to write in an awkward manner. To me, 'he' is a perfectly acceptable way of expressing both he and she.So is the use of "she". I agree with your disgust at the misuse of "they". It is grammatically incorrect to use the third-person plural as a means of avoiding the use of the third-person singular pronoun.

As for restaurants and bars - I have had no problem anywhere eating on my own or having a drink at a bar while waiting for the restaurant to open if I get there too early etc. I get pretty attentive, nice service where-ever that can be expected, from both waiters and waitresses. I do not think I am treated any differently from anyone, be that male or female. Maybe I'm simply too thick-skinned to notice any disadvantage as a female, but I genuinely have never felt disadvantaged as a female. Maybe I've been in a very, very heavily male-dominated industry, so that may influence it a bit though. ^

Some FAs treat all pax the same, no matter the gender, or the outfit. It's too bad when human nature gets in the way of thinking those that are dressed poorly must reflect on their behaviour, and those dressed better are not so nice.