JetBlue TrueBlue - reaccomodation policy not too customer-focused

As many of you may know, there's a nasty winter storm headed toward the Mid-Atlantic tonight and tomorrow morning. Airlines are, naturally, relaxing their ticketing rules to allow fee-free changes.

Jetblue is currently doing this for NYC.

http://jetblue.com/JetblueAlerts/WeatherUpdate.aspx

Unfortunately, I have a family member flying early tomorrow morning out of IAD. As you can see, the forecast is dismal:

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?CityName=Washington&state=DC&site=LWX&textField1=38.895&textField2=-77.0373&e=1

Jetblue, however, has so far refused to include IAD in its travel advisory, so changes are at "full price." Which in the case of my family member -- whom I would like to rebook for the following day -- would be about $200 for the rebooking fee/new fare class.

A Jetblue agent explained the policy to me as follows: "because we are larger in JFK than at IAD, we expect more impact to our operations."

Is that a customer-focused reaccomodation policy? Do they really want to make pax show up at the airport during a snow/sleet/freezing rain event?

Is that a customer-focused reaccomodation policy? Do they really want to make pax show up at the airport during a snow/sleet/freezing rain event?
They implement the policy in places where they do not expect to be able to operate flights. It has nothing to do with conditions outside the airport. That's the way all airlines behave in these cases.

I'm not saying that jetBlue couldn't try to do better than the others, but they certainly are no worse on this one, IMO.

Looking at the NOAA forcast for Chantilly, VA. Chantilly (http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?CityName=Chantilly&state=VA&site=LWX&textField1=38.8756&textField2=-77.4087&e=0) it doesn't look that bad. Only 1-2" expected with no ice accumulation. Flights to JFK and BOS from IAD may be delayed but for the most part I suspect all other flights should run ok if they aren't coming from JFKor BOS. BOS on the other hand is expecting 4-8" of snow and .10 to .25 of ice accumulation. NYC is expecting 1-3" of a snow and sleet mix. The bulk of the storm is suppose to stay north of Philly and Virginia and Maryland are suppose to be on the outer fringe of the storm.

Where are you attempting to fly to tomorrow?

I'm not saying that jetBlue couldn't try to do better than the others, but they certainly are no worse on this one, IMO.

Every other airline I checked -- UA (hub) US, CO, DL -- is already allowing free changes for travellers booked out of IAD tomorrow.

JetBlue's delay in doing so is either careless or insensitive.

BTW, here's the latest NWS DC forecast from a few minutes ago. Would you want to be "forced" to get to the airport tomorrow morning?
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

ADDITIONAL SNOW AND SLEET ACCUMULATIONS LATE TODAY AND THIS
EVENING WILL BE 1 TO 2 INCHES. THAT WILL BE FOLLOWED BY ICE
ACCUMULATIONS OVERNIGHT INTO WEDNESDAY OF ONE TO TWO TENTHS OF AN
INCH.

Where are you attempting to fly to tomorrow?

Florida -- it's a family member.

Well to play spokes person for a minute. All of those airlines (except CO) have a major operation in DCA/IAD. We only have a few flights to a few cities except for BOS and JFK which have a bulk of the flights. The company may change the advisory based on the expected path of the storm. Right now (according to the forecast) the heaviest part of the storm is suppose to stay north of DC. You could always call and ask to speak to a supervisor. I believe they would have the power to change the flight. Just explain the forecast as the TV stations are reporting it. Reservations doesn't have access to that information. They rely on the information sent to them from HQ.

Florida -- it's a family member.

What flight number? I'll check on the routing of the aircraft for you if you wish.

ADDITIONAL SNOW AND SLEET ACCUMULATIONS LATE TODAY AND THIS EVENING WILL BE 1 TO 2 INCHES. THAT WILL BE FOLLOWED BY ICE ACCUMULATIONS OVERNIGHT INTO WEDNESDAY OF ONE TO TWO TENTHS OF AN INCH.


I just talked with my aunt in Southern Maryland and she was freaking out. It is funny how the difference in climate affects people differently. Here in Michigan people wouldn't give that forecast a second glance. They'd still be doing 70-80mph on the highway and weaving in and out of traffic. We are use to that up here. But in a place that doesn't have a heavy winter a forecast like that could cripple a city. Same with places like Atlanta, Dallas and so forth. They aren't equipped to handle an event like this.

My Mom's 8:05 am flight to JAX on JetBlue tomorrow morning was cancelled and I was able to rebook her for the 1:20pm flight for no fee. Unfortunately, she's to be visiting my grandmother who today tells my mom she's not feeling well (heart) and wants to go to the hospital. Anyways, sob story aside, JB claims it's to "Minimize our delays" tomorrow, yet every other flight going down the east coast is leaving as scheduled as of now, which makes me seriously question their cancellation. Do we have any recourse for compensation? A supervisor I spoke to claims no, as it's weather, but the rep herself said its to minimize the EXPECTED delays. I would want book Delta tomorrow at 8:15 am so she can get there asap but of course the price difference is huge.

Thanks for the info.

BTW this was flight 611 at 8:05 am to JAX.

My Mom's 8:05 am flight to JAX on JetBlue tomorrow morning was cancelled and I was able to rebook her for the 1:20pm flight for no fee. Unfortunately, she's to be visiting my grandmother who today tells my mom she's not feeling well (heart) and wants to go to the hospital. Anyways, sob story aside, JB claims it's to "Minimize our delays" tomorrow, yet every other flight going down the east coast is leaving as scheduled as of now, which makes me seriously question their cancellation. Do we have any recourse for compensation? A supervisor I spoke to claims no, as it's weather, but the rep herself said its to minimize the EXPECTED delays. I would want book Delta tomorrow at 8:15 am so she can get there asap but of course the price difference is huge.

Thanks for the info.

BTW this was flight 611 at 8:05 am to JAX.You can take your money back and buy another ticket or take what they are offering to fly you on. You don't really have any other recourse.

Every other airline I checked -- UA (hub) US, CO, DL -- is already allowing free changes for travellers booked out of IAD tomorrow.

JetBlue's delay in doing so is either careless or insensitive.


CO's operations from IAD are all ERJ and Q200s to EWR. They are allowing changes because EWR is going to be so FUBAR'd that they probably actually won't operate many of the flights and they know it, but it is because of EWR, not IAD. CO's operations at DCA are mostly Qs and ERJs to CLE/EWR, and again they are likely to be cut.

JetBlue expects to be able to operate on or close to schedule out of the airport so they aren't allowing changes. If it turns out that they end up canceling a bunch of flights then it will prove to have been a bad choice on their part, but we won't really know until tomorrow.

My Mom's 8:05 am flight to JAX on JetBlue tomorrow morning was cancelled and I was able to rebook her for the 1:20pm flight for no fee. Unfortunately, she's to be visiting my grandmother who today tells my mom she's not feeling well (heart) and wants to go to the hospital. Anyways, sob story aside, JB claims it's to "Minimize our delays" tomorrow, yet every other flight going down the east coast is leaving as scheduled as of now, which makes me seriously question their cancellation. Do we have any recourse for compensation? A supervisor I spoke to claims no, as it's weather, but the rep herself said its to minimize the EXPECTED delays. I would want book Delta tomorrow at 8:15 am so she can get there asap but of course the price difference is huge.

Thanks for the info.

BTW this was flight 611 at 8:05 am to JAX.

Since they canceled her flight, I would ask to be rebooked on the flight of your choice - is the 8:05am operating the next day? If they declined to rebook you onto a flight that was acceptable, then you should be able to get a refund. Of course, if you've already accepted rebooking onto the 1:20p flight, you may be out of luck unless that one also fails to operate on schedule.

I called again and, after getting another "there's nothing we can do" response, I asked to speak to a supervisor. The supervisor's performance was exemplary: she fully GRASPED the absurdity of not being able to change a reservation despite the snow/ice storm. So I had no problem rebooking for the following day without fee.

So is this a good news or bad news story? I'd say good news for seasoned travellers, who know what to do when "the rules" require an absurd outcome. The supervisor was one of the best airline employees I've ever spoken to over the phone (and I've spoken to hundreds if not thousands). But why isn't JetBlue following the same rebooking policy as all the major airlines out of IAD tomorrow? That shows a lapse of good judgment, IMHO.

But why isn't JetBlue following the same rebooking policy as all the major airlines out of IAD tomorrow?
Did you not like the earlier answers provided? :)

The supervisor's performance was exemplary: she fully GRASPED the absurdity of not being able to change a reservation despite the snow/ice storm. So I had no problem rebooking for the following day without fee.

No offense intended, but there's little absurdity here. A lot of thought goes into the cancellation/rebooking policy during weather events, and there was minimal impact expected at IAD. 1-2" of now with little ice accumulation isn't as bad as it seems, to be honest. I'm glad you were able to get the situation resolved to your satisfaction, though.

But why isn't JetBlue following the same rebooking policy as all the major airlines out of IAD tomorrow? That shows a lapse of good judgment, IMHO.

Quite the opposite, IMO. If the ability exists to operate fairly close to normal, it should be done, in the interests of the customer. Roads and highways should be cleared, but it never hurts to give yourself extra time to get to the airport. Other airlines have other aircraft with other routing, and it may have made sense for them to cancel as they did. But each airline has its own set of operations, and you can't rely on one to assume the actions of another. sbm12 gives a pretty good description upthread about why cancellations are so quick to come from other airlines.

Anyways, sob story aside, JB claims it's to "Minimize our delays" tomorrow, yet every other flight going down the east coast is leaving as scheduled as of now, which makes me seriously question their cancellation.

It is, indeed, to minimize impact to the operation. Select flights are chosen for cancellation based on a variety of factors, and it's because some flights have been cancelled that those other flights can expect to operate as scheduled. For one simple example, deicing congestion can lead to serious delays on the ramp--and subsequently, serious delays throughout the network. It's a rock and a hard place-- there must either be accomodations made up front to minimize impact, and inconvenience some, or there will be the inevitable question later of "how can my flight out of Orlando be delayed due to weather in the Northeast?"

No offense intended, but there's little absurdity here. A lot of thought goes into the cancellation/rebooking policy during weather events, and there was minimal impact expected at IAD.

I don't understand why anyone would say this, or attempt to rationalize JetBlue's policy here. If you think the weather is going to cause a "minimal impact" on IAD tomorrow morning, you're smokin' something. Right now at IAD there's snow and freezing rain and 29 degrees, with the bulk of the storm still coming in. Here's the NWS forecast:

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?CityName=Washington&state=DC&site=LWX&textField1=38.895&textField2=-77.0373&e=1

EVERY other major airline at IAD is allowing free rebookings tomorrow. And not just those flying RJs to EWR, as one poster has noted.

This is just a very customer unfriendly policy. Those who do not want to brave the poor weather -- and likely massive flight delays and cancellations -- should be given a choice. Not charged hundreds of dollars to bail from the problem.

Here's the NWS forecast:

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?CityName=Washington&state=DC&site=LWX&textField1=38.895&textField2=-77.0373&e=1

Tonight: Snow and sleet before 11pm, then freezing rain and sleet between 11pm and 2am, then freezing rain after 2am. Low around 30. East wind around 9 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. Total nighttime ice accumulation of 0.1 to 0.2 of an inch possible. Total nighttime snow and sleet accumulation of 1 to 2 inches possible.

Wednesday: Rain or freezing rain, becoming all rain after noon. High near 41. East wind around 7 mph becoming west. Chance of precipitation is 100%. Little or no ice accumulation expected.

Altogether, 1-2 inches of snow, and 0.1-0.2 inches of ice and getting progressively better during the day. Again, nothing that can't be dealt with.

EVERY other major airline at IAD is allowing free rebookings tomorrow. And not just those flying RJs to EWR, as one poster has noted.

Again, you can't rely on the actions of one carrier to suggest what another should do. JetBlue's operation at IAD isn't the same as CO or UA's; it's apples to oranges.

This is just a very customer unfriendly policy. Those who do not want to brave the poor weather -- and likely massive flight delays and cancellations -- should be given a choice. Not charged hundreds of dollars to bail from the problem.

With all due respect, you do have a choice. Much the same as in any other contract, circumstances arise that are beyond either party's control. JetBlue's obligation is to get you from point A to point B, which is the plan. JetBlue has determined that right now, it seems more likely that they can provide service. You have your opinion on what steps should be taken, and that's fine. The company, and some other posters here, have differing opinions on how to proceed. That's also fine.

Clearly, though, JetBlue is able to accomodate those customers with differing opinions. Despite feeling that the situation doesn't warrant a blanket allowance of rebooking/cancellations, a customer service supervisor was able to rebook you with no problem. Those that do wish to brave the 1-2" of snow will be able to take their original flight without the inconvenience of a cancellation; those who don't can have a supervisor approve the change. So it seems like a win-win situation for both sides here, honestly.

So it seems like a win-win situation for both sides here, honestly.

I like the idea of LESS choice being a win-win. :)

Look, I don't want to argue with you, but the local head of the NWS is predicting a commuting "nightmare" in Washington tomorrow morning.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/27/AR2009012700644.html?hpid=topnews

Now, weather is a bit unpredictable and he could be wrong, but why on earth would you not listen to the National Weather Service? If it turns out better than expected, great. If it doesn't, you're covered. That seems to be the philosophy of the competition.

And that fact that the weather may be better in the afternoon doesn't mean the early morning pax should be made to suffer.

Look, I don't want to argue with you, but the local head of the NWS is predicting a commuting "nightmare" in Washington tomorrow morning.
Like I said before...
They implement the policy in places where they do not expect to be able to operate flights. It has nothing to do with conditions outside the airport.

I like the idea of LESS choice being a win-win. :)

Look, I don't want to argue with you, but the local head of the NWS is predicting a commuting "nightmare" in Washington tomorrow morning.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/27/AR2009012700644.html?hpid=topnews

Now, weather is a bit unpredictable and he could be wrong, but why on earth would you not listen to the National Weather Service? If it turns out better than expected, great. If it doesn't, you're covered. That seems to be the philosophy of the competition.

And that fact that the weather may be better in the afternoon doesn't mean the early morning pax should be made to suffer.
Does anyone else find it strange that the date of the article is tomorrow, and that it talks about events that happened previously (ie - tomorrow during the day) ?!?!

I'm not discrediting your source at all, I honestly just got a little creeped out that they somehow know the future :)

EDIT: Scratch that - I'm in NY and since the snow hasn't started here yet, I foolishly assumed that the snow hadn't started there as well, and thought the article was referring to tomorrow's events when it was actually referring to yesterday's.

/stupidity

And now the NWS has "upgraded" the DC forecast from a "Winter Weather Advisory" to a "Winter Storm Warning" (their worst weather designation) for tonight and tomorrow morning. Apparently the ice will now be worse.

http://forecast.weather.gov/showsigwx.php?warnzone=VAZ053&warncounty=VAC059&firewxzone=VAZ053&local_place1=Chantilly+VA&product1=Winter+Storm+Warning

I suspect that JetBlue will now be the first airline to not extend reaccomodation while a Winter Storm Warning is in effect.

But you can always call and try to find a supervisor to override, right? :(

Well this advisory came out at 2150L and is in effect until 1200L tomorrow. 0.1 to 0.3 is a decent amount of ice for an area that isn't use to it. I do suspect a majority of our IAD flights won't be too affected. The website still doesn't show IAD as an impacted city. According to an email sent out by our base leadership 45 round-trip flights have been cancelled. The majority of these are out of Metro NYC and Boston. So far nothing has been cancelled out of IAD for tomorrow. Most of the planes that run from IAD-FL either start in IAD or FL and just shuttle back and forth.

Everybody try to remember what is a major weather event for some is nothing for others. Like I stated earlier, this would be a non-event for some of us here in the midwest as we are use to it. VA, MD, WV and such do not get an event like this very often and don't necessarily have the equipment to deal with it. Our operations department, which has been cancel happy since 02/14 doesn't suspect IAD will be impacted that much. Again, like I stated earlier, as iahphx did, if you are concerned about traveling tomorrow and don't know if you could safely make it to the airport then call and tell the reservations agent that. They don't look at forecasts and analyze them like our operations department does. They rely on what is coming out of dispatch and planning. We care about your personal safety and don't want you out and about if you don't think it is safe. The supervisor obviously knew this and allowed the fee-waived rebooking.

Everybody's concern's are valid here so let's respect them and make sure everybody gets where they need to go safe and sound, whether that's tomorrow or the next day.

Everybody try to remember what is a major weather event for some is nothing for others. Like I stated earlier, this would be a non-event for some of us here in the midwest as we are use to it. VA, MD, WV and such do not get an event like this very often and don't necessarily have the equipment to deal with it.

Again, this happy talk is nice, but is simply wrong. Somebody simply needs to admit that a mistake has been made here, and take steps to make sure it does not happen again.

Compare AA's reaction to a forecast of about 1/10th of an inch of ice at DFW tonight. More than 24 hours in advance of the forecast, they allowed customer reaccomodation for 3 days! DFW, by the way, gets ice storms every winter, so it's a regular procedure.

Now you can argue that 3 days is unnecessary (and it may be), but they are erring on the side of caution. As are all the other major airlines at IAD. It doesn't mean you can't fly JetBlue (assuming they actually fly) tomorrow morning. It just means that pax don't have to forfeit hundreds of dollars if they don't feel comfortable doing so.

Again, this happy talk is nice, but is simply wrong. Somebody simply needs to admit that a mistake has been made here, and take steps to make sure it does not happen again.

No, it's not wrong. Thus far, IAD has already cancelled 6 of 18 flights tomorrow -- that's 1/3 of the operation where impact is suspected; those customers have been called and rebooked. The remaining flights are anticipated to operate as scheduled. The AM FLL flight, for example, originates in FLL. It travels FLL-IAD, then back to FLL as flight 811. No significant impact is expected to that flight, and it should operate on time.

If it turns out better than expected, great. If it doesn't, you're covered.

Great? How is that great?

Now you can argue that 3 days is unnecessary (and it may be), but they are erring on the side of caution. As are all the other major airlines at IAD. It doesn't mean you can't fly JetBlue (assuming they actually fly) tomorrow morning. It just means that pax don't have to forfeit hundreds of dollars if they don't feel comfortable doing so.

Again, with all due respect, there's no reason to not feel comfortable doing so. The airline has made a contract with you to provide transportation from point A to point B. It is your responsibility to provide yourself a way to the airport. Roads will be open and traffic will be flowing, though maybe slower than usual. Plenty of people will be comfortable driving to and from work tomorrow; are you suggesting that if someone feels uncomfortable driving in the rain, change fees should be waived so the person can rebook to a day where they won't drive in the rain to the airport?

The only responsibility the airline has is to anticipate weather events as they will impact airline operations, and adjust accordingly. In this case, so far, 6 IAD flights have been cancelled in order to better manage the situation as it is expected. Customers on those flights are being contacted to make other arrangements.

I realize that it's not easy to make predictions on the weather, even with training and experience in airline operations. But what may seem to be foolish and unwise from the armchair has good reasoning behind it.

Again, this happy talk is nice, but is simply wrong. Somebody simply needs to admit that a mistake has been made here, and take steps to make sure it does not happen again.


No mistake made on our part it seems. Looking at the radar, all the weather has appeared to have moved out of the area so impact on operations should be nil for the rest of the day. The company decided no to include IAD in the impact zone because they saw the forecasts and pretty much saw that the weather would be out of the area. Some airlines UA, CO, US, decided to play it safe and include IAD but we did not. Simple as that. I'm sorry you felt cheated because we didn't include IAD but I'm with the company on this one. They made a decision and stuck with it.

Another not so nice part is that they are only allowing you to move your trip up at most one day all of the other legacies(and airtran and southwest) give you at least 5 days to move your trip....

FWIW, there were two "early morning" flights to Florida today. The flight to PBI was canceled (I don't know if it is one of the six that was canceled in advance or not) and the flight to MCO departed on time and is expected to arrive ~10 minutes late.

Not too shabby from an operations perspective for JetBlue.

As I expected, CO canceled many of their IAD-EWR flights (the first three) and the first one that isn't canceled is a 1pm departure that is already delayed 100 minutes. CO's DCA operations to EWR are similarly affected, with some RJs/Qs canceled, but most mainline operating on or near schedule.

FWIW, there were two "early morning" flights to Florida today. The flight to PBI was canceled (I don't know if it is one of the six that was canceled in advance or not) and the flight to MCO departed on time and is expected to arrive ~10 minutes late.

Not too shabby from an operations perspective for JetBlue.

50% aren't good odds for a pax. :p

Again, when allowing reaccomodations, there's more involved than just whether the planes fly. If there is a good chance it will not be safe for your pax to get to the airport -- and I think any rational thinking person would agree that conditions early this morning in DC were poor -- you should allow your pax to change their travel plans. Should someone be forced to fork over an extra $200 to travel the next day because they didn't want to go to the airport during a Winter Storm Warning? If that's not nuts, I don't know what is. This uncaring/unthinking behavior is embarrassing to the airline, and the employees who keep making dumb excuses are just increasing the embarrassment.

This uncaring/unthinking behavior is embarrassing to the airline, and the employees who keep making dumb excuses are just increasing the embarrassment.

Obviously you aren't going to change your mind or listen to what is being said and that is fine. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

The airline is going to protect it's operation first and foremost. What is embarassing is what happened last Feburary 14th. The situation is the Metro DC area wasn't that bad that would prevent people from making it out to the airport. We aren't making dumb excuses but trying to explain to you how the operation is run and how decisions are made.

50% aren't good odds for a pax. :p

Again, when allowing reaccomodations, there's more involved than just whether the planes fly. If there is a good chance it will not be safe for your pax to get to the airport -- and I think any rational thinking person would agree that conditions early this morning in DC were poor -- you should allow your pax to change their travel plans. Should someone be forced to fork over an extra $200 to travel the next day because they didn't want to go to the airport during a Winter Storm Warning? If that's not nuts, I don't know what is. This uncaring/unthinking behavior is embarrassing to the airline, and the employees who keep making dumb excuses are just increasing the embarrassment.

I am most certainly NOT a jetBlue employee. In fact, I think you'll find that I have no trouble ripping them on here when I think that they are doing something stupid. And I am not making "dumb excuses." I am explaining from an objective business perspective why it makes sense for JetBlue to operate the way they have.

As for the 50% "statistic," there are lies, damn lies and statistics, and this is clearly a case of the latter. If the PBI flight was pre-canceled because of expected operational issues (like the JFK-JAX mentioned up-tread) then jetBlue is actually operating at 100% to Florida. Oh, and since that time the FLL flight went out on time and is due in early. They did pre-cancel some other flights, namely to JFK and BOS as well as the morning flight to LGB. The others are all operating just fine.

I'm not in DC this morning so I do not know what the road conditions are, but keep in mind that the carrier DOES have to consider such things. They have employees that need to get to the airport to operate the flights just like passengers need to get to the airport to actually fly. The roads are open and things are moving, though a bit slowly.

If they do open things up to free changes it can end up costing them a lot of money. If folks change to later flights they lose the ability to sell those seats to other customers (likely for a decent amount of money at relatively last minute fares) and they are also going to likely lose money flying around relatively empty planes. There are real economic factors that the carriers have to consider in making such a decision.

Finally, the OPM hasn't shut down the federal government (http://www.opm.gov/status/), so I'd say that things are operating normally enough. They were always the metric we used when I was working in DC to figure out if things were open or closed.

I, too, think JetBlue screwed this one up. I'm in DC now and the roads and sidewalks are incredibly slick. 50% cancellations is not exactly a great rate. :)

Further, the analogy to the federal government being closed is silly. The federal government was open during the valentine's day disaster as well. @:-)

Obviously you aren't going to change your mind or listen to what is being said and that is fine. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.


Do you not see a recurring pattern in this forum, though? I spend time in lots of the airline forums: UA, US, AA, B6, SW.. One thing that stands out about this place is that pax routinely feel that the policies of B6 are not customer-focused or friendly. Maybe it is carry over from the Valentine's Day mess, but I do think that it is telling about where things stand.

To be truthful, telling paying customers that "they are entitled to their opinion," doesn't really increase the sense of customer-focused operations. When did it change from customer is always right to JetBlue is always right?

I'd have to go against B6 on this one. Putting customers at risk by forcing them to travel to the airport in unsafe conditions isn't too passenger-friendly. The secondary roads here were quite messy this morning, and the sidewalks in parts of DC were horrific. I would say our office has around a 50% attendance level today. No matter what's being stated here, a Winter Storm Warning is a big deal and warranted some sort of travel waiver.

Do you not see a recurring pattern in this forum, though? I spend time in lots of the airline forums: UA, US, AA, B6, SW.. One thing that stands out about this place is that pax routinely feel that the policies of B6 are not customer-focused or friendly.

That is hardly unique to B6. You'll see the same feelings in every forum here. There's practically mutiny in the DL/NW forums right now.

I'd have to go against B6 on this one. Putting customers at risk by forcing them to travel to the airport in unsafe conditions isn't too passenger-friendly....No matter what's being stated here, a Winter Storm Warning is a big deal and warranted some sort of travel waiver.


Noone is being forced to do anything.

Regardless of whether or not a travel waiver should have been issued the OP explained their trepidation with travel to the airport given the forecast and Jetblue's service staff was happy to accomodate. That sounds both customer-focused and friendly to me.

I'm confused. How many flights from IAD that did NOT involve the New York area and New England were canceled or severely delayed?

Jetblue did allow reaccommodation on flights to some cities according to their website. I would assume that if someone was traveling IAD-BOS or IAD-JFK they would be reaccommodated if they chose.

Taking those flights from IAD out of the equation how did they do at IAD today? Just 50%? I also see some posts that some flights left on time or very close to it.

I probably would agree to let people change their flight with the "threat" of weather, but I am curious how it played out today. (or "is playing out today")

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8320/4.5.0.81 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100)

I'd have to go against B6 on this one. Putting customers at risk by forcing them to travel to the airport in unsafe conditions isn't too passenger-friendly....No matter what's being stated here, a Winter Storm Warning is a big deal and warranted some sort of travel waiver.


Noone is being forced to do anything.

Regardless of whether or not a travel waiver should have been issued the OP explained their trepidation with travel to the airport given the forecast and Jetblue's service staff was happy to accomodate. That sounds both customer-focused and friendly to me.

You're joking, right? Having to call and escalate to a supervisor doesn't sound too friendly to me.

I'm confused. How many flights from IAD that did NOT involve the New York area and New England were canceled or severely delayed?

Jetblue did allow reaccommodation on flights to some cities according to their website. I would assume that if someone was traveling IAD-BOS or IAD-JFK they would be reaccommodated if they chose.

Taking those flights from IAD out of the equation how did they do at IAD today? Just 50%? I also see some posts that some flights left on time or very close to it.

I probably would agree to let people change their flight with the "threat" of weather, but I am curious how it played out today. (or "is playing out today")


The IAD operations weren't impacted to severely today. A couple of flights in the morning were cancelled in order to protect some later flights. JFK and BOS flights were hit the hardest but the IAD-FL flights weren't operated by aircraft that started in JFK or BOS. Talking with friends and family in the area said it wasn't as bad as the news said it was going to be. Some icy roads this morning but they were quickly cleared and people were free to move.

A couple of flights in the morning were cancelled in order to protect some later flights.

I don't understand this line. Can you explain?

Further, the analogy to the federal government being closed is silly. The federal government was open during the valentine's day disaster as well. @:-)

Two different cities (NY, DC). @:-)

I don't understand this line. Can you explain?

I believe JetBlueFA is referring to the "ripple effect" of flight delays. This was a proactive move to reduce the impact on later flights being delayed/cancelled.

I believe JetBlueFA is referring to the "ripple effect" of flight delays. This was a proactive move to reduce the impact on later flights being delayed/cancelled.

So you cancel one flight so you don't have to cancel another? What purpose does that serve? Why not see if you can fly the first flight? After all, we were just told in this thread that conditions weren't that bad. Why the need to protect future flights then? :confused:

Two different cities (NY, DC). @:-)

I don't follow. Surely you don't think that B6's problems were confined to NY during the massacre, right?

I don't understand this line. Can you explain?

Some of the flights out of IAD did IAD-FLL-IAD-TPA and so forth. So instead of running the IAD-FLL then getting the plane stuck in FLL because IAD is groundstoped. Thus delaying the TPA flight and any other flight after that. You cancel the IAD-FLL, get another plane to fly FLL-IAD and thus you have the plane ready for the IAD-TPA-so forth while the FLL-IAD flight can be delayed and not affect the rest of the routing.

Some of the flights out of IAD did IAD-FLL-IAD-TPA and so forth. So instead of running the IAD-FLL then getting the plane stuck in FLL because IAD is groundstoped. Thus delaying the TPA flight and any other flight after that. You cancel the IAD-FLL, get another plane to fly FLL-IAD and thus you have the plane ready for the IAD-TPA-so forth while the FLL-IAD flight can be delayed and not affect the rest of the routing.

So you have two return trips, essentially:

IAD-FLL-IAD

and

IAD-TPA-IAD

If you cancel the first, you can do the second. But you can't do the first.

If you don't cancel the first, you might not be able to do the 2nd. But you might not.

I'm not seeing how it is efficient to cancel the first roundtrip. What am I missing?

You're joking, right?

No. :)

This story, although somewhat unrelated, seems apropos:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090128/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_winter_weather

No. :)

This story, although somewhat unrelated, seems apropos:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090128/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_winter_weather

Given the flight cancellations today, it seems B6 is the one that can't handle the Washington weather. :)

I don't follow. Surely you don't think that B6's problems were confined to NY during the massacre, right?

Of course not; the entire system was obviously affected. However, the ice strom on 2/14/07 hit NY harder than DC; so the federal government operated as normal. Similar situation today, according to previous posts in this thread. I assume the poster was referring to using DC weather conditions/government openings as a metric of how severe the storm is.

I, too, think JetBlue screwed this one up. I'm in DC now and the roads and sidewalks are incredibly slick. 50% cancellations is not exactly a great rate. :)

6 of 18 IAD flights were cancelled on Wednesday; 33% as opposed to 50%. 4 of those were between 6 and 8 AM, when the worst conditions were expected.

Do you not see a recurring pattern in this forum, though? I spend time in lots of the airline forums: UA, US, AA, B6, SW.. One thing that stands out about this place is that pax routinely feel that the policies of B6 are not customer-focused or friendly. Maybe it is carry over from the Valentine's Day mess, but I do think that it is telling about where things stand.

I think that's indicative of two things--
1) People are more inclined to post about a negative experience than a positive one, and
2) This forum is not representative of JetBlue's customer base as a whole, if your suggestion is accurate. Customer reviews are consistently and overwhelmingly positive; even in this instance, the OP was able to get the solution he/she sought.

To be truthful, telling paying customers that "they are entitled to their opinion," doesn't really increase the sense of customer-focused operations. When did it change from customer is always right to JetBlue is always right?

The adage of "the customer is always right" is a specious one; as is the claim that "JetBlue is always right." Clearly, there are differing personal opinions in this situation, and no one is "right." JetBlue does set the policy, however, and on a personal level, I think it was handled appropriately for the events today.

Putting customers at risk by forcing them to travel to the airport in unsafe conditions isn't too passenger-friendly. The secondary roads here were quite messy this morning, and the sidewalks in parts of DC were horrific. I would say our office has around a 50% attendance level today. No matter what's being stated here, a Winter Storm Warning is a big deal and warranted some sort of travel waiver.

No one was put at risk, and no one was forced to do anything. The definition of that claim is entirely subjective; do you believe that the DC public school system put children at risk today? Schools were delayed by 2 hours, which means buses still ran. Again, where do you draw the line? There will always be one person who feels that driving in a light rain is entirely too risky. Should that person be exempt from change fees?

I'm confused. How many flights from IAD that did NOT involve the New York area and New England were canceled or severely delayed?

6 flights were cancelled; 2 JFK, 2 BOS, 1 PBI, and 1 LGB.

Taking those flights from IAD out of the equation how did they do at IAD today? Just 50%? I also see some posts that some flights left on time or very close to it.

IAD had 18 scheduled departures today. 6 flights were cancelled ahead of time on Tuesday, 8 flights departed on time, and 4 flights were delayed for reasons not related to IAD weather.

I don't understand this line. Can you explain?

So you cancel one flight so you don't have to cancel another? What purpose does that serve? Why not see if you can fly the first flight? After all, we were just told in this thread that conditions weren't that bad. Why the need to protect future flights then?

Because the risk of ripple delays can be mitigated by cancelling early and reaccomodating customers, if loads permit. The need to protect future flights existed because, as I said above, conditions weren't good in the morning, but were expected to (and did) get better throughout the day.

I'm not seeing how it is efficient to cancel the first roundtrip. What am I missing?

The case is not always that the first segment is cancelled. It depends on the forecast, GDP expectations, and the like. If customers can be reaccomodated the same day, that's also good. Flights are scheduled for optimal conditions -- for a case like today, there may be a need to allow some extra padding time to make sure later flights can operate on time.

Given the flight cancellations today, it seems B6 is the one that can't handle the Washington weather.

I don't follow. 1/3 of IAD flights were cancelled in advance. 8 more operated on time -- of those that were delayed, only two were greater than an hour. I think IAD performed as expected, given conditions.

Given the flight cancellations today, it seems B6 is the one that can't handle the Washington weather. :)

As has already been mentioned, all the cancellations were "pre-cancels".

This, apparently, draws the ire of many observers for foolishly cancelling flights before Jetblue actually knows if they need to.

The other scenario is equally frowned upon by those same observers and has the possibilty of leading to an even more severe disruption of the network.

Given all that I've heard so far, I would say Jetblue handled the Washington weather appropriately but is destined to lose in the eyes of its detractors.

6 of 18 IAD flights were cancelled on Wednesday; 33% as opposed to 50%. 4 of those were between 6 and 8 AM, when the worst conditions were expected.


But of course JetBlue anticipated no problems, which is why the didn't have the weather waiver, right? Or are you saying that JetBlue did anticipate problems and chose not to issue the waiver?

Either way I think the OP is right. In both instances it seems pretty bad on B6's part. Other airlines anticipated problems at IAD and issued waivers. So either B6's weather people are incompetent relative to the competition, they're cheap and don't want to issue the waiver, or they're not very customer service oriented.


The adage of "the customer is always right" is a specious one; as is the claim that "JetBlue is always right." Clearly, there are differing personal opinions in this situation, and no one is "right." JetBlue does set the policy, however, and on a personal level, I think it was handled appropriately for the events today.


Don't you work for B6? :confused: How can you respond to this on a personal level when on a professional level you have so much at stake?


Because the risk of ripple delays can be mitigated by cancelling early and reaccomodating customers, if loads permit. The need to protect future flights existed because, as I said above, conditions weren't good in the morning, but were expected to (and did) get better throughout the day.


So basically a bunch of people get screwed in the morning so others don't get screwed in the afternoon. Gotcha.

As has already been mentioned, all the cancellations were "pre-cancels".

This, apparently, draws the ire of many observers for foolishly cancelling flights before Jetblue actually knows if they need to.


I think the ire comes from the OP who correctly pointed out that the weather at IAD was going to be bad and B6 should have offered a reaccomodation policy when all the other airlines serving the airport did. Instead, they canceled a bunch of flights and didn't give pax the choice of when to fly if they were scheduled for the afternoon.

Just seems cheap.

I assume the poster was referring to using DC weather conditions/government openings as a metric of how severe the storm is.
I was using the OPM status as a metric for whether it was "safe" to be out and about in the DC/IAD area yesterday morning. Neither the OPM status nor the weather at IAD have anything to do with the weather in NYC, just like the weather in NYC should not have any appreciable impact on the operations at IAD, except for the flights between the two cities. The roads were open in DC and the airport was open and operating. JetBlue took proactive measures to cancel some flights and rebook those passengers flying from IAD, but the majority of the flights operated and they mostly operated on time.

They looked at the weather forecast, canceled out some flights and had the others operating pretty smoothly. That's what I'd want the carrier I fly on to do.

As for choosing which ones to cancel, I'm quite sure they would take in to account things like the time of day (as the weather was expected to improve throughout the day) and loads (to minimize the number of affected passengers). Generally speaking you always have a 100% chance of operating the first flight out. Everything after that is a series of lower numbers, as things might cancel, get delayed, etc. If they know that the weather is likely to be better later in the day it actually makes a reasonable amount of sense to preemptively cancel the early turn (e.g. IAD-PBI-IAD) to ensure that they have a plane available to operate a later turn, especially if there are light loads on one and not on the other. There is no reason to always try to force the first turn out just to say that you are operating all the flights.

I was using the OPM status as a metric for whether it was "safe" to be out and about in the DC/IAD area yesterday morning. Neither the OPM status nor the weather at IAD have anything to do with the weather in NYC, just like the weather in NYC should not have any appreciable impact on the operations at IAD, except for the flights between the two cities. The roads were open in DC and the airport was open and operating. JetBlue took proactive measures to cancel some flights and rebook those passengers flying from IAD, but the majority of the flights operated and they mostly operated on time.

They looked at the weather forecast, canceled out some flights and had the others operating pretty smoothly. That's what I'd want the carrier I fly on to do.

As for choosing which ones to cancel, I'm quite sure they would take in to account things like the time of day (as the weather was expected to improve throughout the day) and loads (to minimize the number of affected passengers). Generally speaking you always have a 100% chance of operating the first flight out. Everything after that is a series of lower numbers, as things might cancel, get delayed, etc. If they know that the weather is likely to be better later in the day it actually makes a reasonable amount of sense to preemptively cancel the early turn (e.g. IAD-PBI-IAD) to ensure that they have a plane available to operate a later turn, especially if there are light loads on one and not on the other. There is no reason to always try to force the first turn out just to say that you are operating all the flights.

I don't think you're really addressing the main gripe of this thread, though. If, on the 27th, it looks like there is going to be a snowstorm and the rest of the airlines are offering waivers for the airport, JetBlue has decided to be different. If, then on the 28th, they have to cancel flights, then this suggests to me that they were wrong. A good customer service policy would have been to give the waiver on the 27th and let customers reaccomodate as necessary so they aren't left in the cold once the cancellations happen.

But of course JetBlue anticipated no problems, which is why the didn't have the weather waiver, right? Or are you saying that JetBlue did anticipate problems and chose not to issue the waiver?
...
So basically a bunch of people get screwed in the morning so others don't get screwed in the afternoon. Gotcha.

The people in the morning didn't get screwed, per se. The flights were canceled a day in advance and passengers were rebooked. These flights were not canceled with the passengers at the airport. That would have been much, much worse.

JetBlue anticipated very specific problems and addressed those specific issues. They didn't try to land the red-eye coming in form LGB at 6am, they didn't fly up to BOS or JFK early and they killed a PBI flight that I'm guessing was pretty lightly loaded. All those passengers were otherwise accommodated just as if there were a weather waiver in place.

The key is that JetBlue limited the impact of the weather to specific flights and accommodated those passengers while also operating the bulk of their flights in the market and getting the majority of the passengers to their destination safely and, for the most part, on time.

But of course JetBlue anticipated no problems, which is why the didn't have the weather waiver, right? Or are you saying that JetBlue did anticipate problems and chose not to issue the waiver?

JetBlue anticipated the actions that needed to be taken in order to secure the rest of the flights at IAD. There was no reason for a weather waiver because weather at IAD was not anticipated to impact the flights that were not cancelled. Customers on cancelled flights were contacted ahead of time for rebooking; customers not on cancelled flights were transported as planned.

Either way I think the OP is right. In both instances it seems pretty bad on B6's part. Other airlines anticipated problems at IAD and issued waivers. So either B6's weather people are incompetent relative to the competition, they're cheap and don't want to issue the waiver, or they're not very customer service oriented.

Or option D, there was no reason for a blanket waiver. People affected by the cancellations were contacted and reaccomodated as needed on a one-on-one basis.

So basically a bunch of people get screwed in the morning so others don't get screwed in the afternoon. Gotcha.

It's a necessary evil of the situation. Something's gotta give in order to make the rest of the operation run as smoothly as possible. Often during an irregular operation, it's "can we reaccomodate X people a few hours later so that hundreds of others can be unaffected?" Of course, you could have a policy that says "no cancellations -- run it as planned, as late as needed." But then, that's part of what created the whole Valentine's Day mess.

I think the ire comes from the OP who correctly pointed out that the weather at IAD was going to be bad and B6 should have offered a reaccomodation policy when all the other airlines serving the airport did. Instead, they canceled a bunch of flights and didn't give pax the choice of when to fly if they were scheduled for the afternoon.

Once again, you can't compare one airline's operations to another's. It just doesn't work. Apples to oranges to bananas. Those scheduled to fly in the afternoon did fly in the afternoon. Again, I ask, where do you draw the line?

I don't think you're really addressing the main gripe of this thread, though. If, on the 27th, it looks like there is going to be a snowstorm and the rest of the airlines are offering waivers for the airport, JetBlue has decided to be different. If, then on the 28th, they have to cancel flights, then this suggests to me that they were wrong. A good customer service policy would have been to give the waiver on the 27th and let customers reaccomodate as necessary so they aren't left in the cold once the cancellations happen.

You're right--based on forecasted conditions and the operation itself, there was some element of risk involved in the plan. That's always the case. If, on the 28th, flights had to be cancelled, then the plan would have been wrong. As it turned out, though, the operation went as planned. I'm not sure how you can say that JetBlue's planning paled in comparison to other airlines' when the day went as expected.

The people in the morning didn't get screwed, per se. The flights were canceled a day in advance and passengers were rebooked.

A day in advance? So the morning flights yesterday were canceled in the morning of the 27th?

I don't think you're really addressing the main gripe of this thread, though. If, on the 27th, it looks like there is going to be a snowstorm and the rest of the airlines are offering waivers for the airport, JetBlue has decided to be different. If, then on the 28th, they have to cancel flights, then this suggests to me that they were wrong. A good customer service policy would have been to give the waiver on the 27th and let customers reaccomodate as necessary so they aren't left in the cold once the cancellations happen.

They did not decide on the 28th to cancel any flights as I understand it. They decided on the 27th (or maybe the 26th, I'm not certain) to cancel the 6 flights. They accommodated those passengers in advance. No one was left in the cold that I am aware of.

The initial complaint was that someone wanted to change off a flight that was going to operate as scheduled.

Yes, jetBlue took a different approach than all the other carriers. Does that mean it is wrong? It costs them less money to take the approach they did, and the vast majority of the passengers who were scheduled to fly through IAD on Wednesday were able to travel as scheduled. I do not see where that is a bad thing for the customers.

JetBlue anticipated the actions that needed to be taken in order to secure the rest of the flights at IAD. There was no reason for a weather waiver because weather at IAD was not anticipated to impact the flights that were not cancelled. Customers on cancelled flights were contacted ahead of time for rebooking; customers not on cancelled flights were transported as planned.


When were the flights canceled?


Or option D, there was no reason for a blanket waiver. People affected by the cancellations were contacted and reaccomodated as needed on a one-on-one basis.


When?


It's a necessary evil of the situation. Something's gotta give in order to make the rest of the operation run as smoothly as possible. Often during an irregular operation, it's "can we reaccomodate X people a few hours later so that hundreds of others can be unaffected?" Of course, you could have a policy that says "no cancellations -- run it as planned, as late as needed." But then, that's part of what created the whole Valentine's Day mess. A rock and a hard place, it is.


Sure, something's gotta give. In my opinion it is JetBlue stinginess. ;)


Once again, you can't compare one airline's operations to another's. It just doesn't work. Apples to oranges to bananas. Those scheduled to fly in the afternoon did fly in the afternoon. Again, I ask, where do you draw the line?

Huh? How is it apples to apples? We're not talking about how different airlines run their operation; we're talking about what seems to be a norm in the industry that JetBlue has apparently decided not to follow.

A day in advance? So the morning flights yesterday were canceled in the morning of the 27th?

I believe so. And that's about when the weather waivers started coming in to play. It isn't like jetBlue was let to the game in that regard relative to the other carriers that offered blanket waivers.

They did not decide on the 28th to cancel any flights as I understand it. They decided on the 27th (or maybe the 26th, I'm not certain) to cancel the 6 flights. They accommodated those passengers in advance. No one was left in the cold that I am aware of.

The initial complaint was that someone wanted to change off a flight that was going to operate as scheduled.

Yes, jetBlue took a different approach than all the other carriers. Does that mean it is wrong? It costs them less money to take the approach they did, and the vast majority of the passengers who were scheduled to fly through IAD on Wednesday were able to travel as scheduled. I do not see where that is a bad thing for the customers.

I'm not sure you know that. You know that the planes went out. But was the vast majority of people able to make the flight? Were they able to get out of their driveways? Did they get in accidents on the way to the airport?

The point of the travel waiver is not only to be more flexible about cancellations. The point also is to allow customers flexibility when there are 150 things that make it challenging to get to the airport on a given day.

I believe so. And that's about when the weather waivers started coming in to play. It isn't like jetBlue was let to the game in that regard relative to the other carriers that offered blanket waivers.

OK, but you do understand the difference between a blanket waiver and a cancellation, yes?

When were the flights canceled?

As forecasts became more specific on Tuesday.

Huh? How is it apples to apples? We're not talking about how different airlines run their operation; we're talking about what seems to be a norm in the industry that JetBlue has apparently decided not to follow.

Innovation?

I'm not sure you know that. You know that the planes went out. But was the vast majority of people able to make the flight? Were they able to get out of their driveways? Did they get in accidents on the way to the airport?

Yet again-- where do you draw the line? There will always be someone uncomfortable driving in the rain, or the fog, or any number of conditions. Travel in the DC area wasn't affected to the extent you suggest. Public schools and buses transporting children operated 2 hours late. As far as I know, no public businesses were closed. The weather happened as it was forecast to. Had it been worse, then we can speculate until we're blue in the face about whether waivers would have been implemented, or what would have been done.

As forecasts became more specific on Tuesday.


Which was when? The OP posted pretty early on the 27th and the forecasts were quite specific at that time. The weather in Washington was forecasted to be bad for days.


Innovation?


Stinginess?


Yet again-- where do you draw the line?

I would draw the line as follows: When B6 is the only major carrier not issuing a waiver at IAD, then the line has been crossed.

I'm just asking B6 to be as stingy as the other airlines. No less, no more.

Which was when? The OP posted pretty early on the 27th and the forecasts were quite specific at that time. The weather in Washington was forecasted to be bad for days.

The forecast on Tuesday for Wednesday was for 1-2" of snow with very little ice accumulation, conditions improving throughout the day.

I'm just asking B6 to be as stingy as the other airlines. No less, no more.

Then it seems we have little more than a fundamental definition of stinginess.

OK, but you do understand the difference between a blanket waiver and a cancellation, yes?

Yes. I'm not a moron.

Do I know that the majority of the passengers were able to get to the airport safely? Not for certain, just like you have no idea that they couldn't. You make it sound like it was chaos and bedlam on the streets around DC. I just don't see that from the details I've gathered.

And I just disagree that there is an absolute need to provide customers with free changes to their travel plans when it snows, even if other carriers are doing so. We may never see eye to eye on this one, but I don't see the need based on what the weather forecast was and I believe that the actual performance of the carrier bears out this decision.

The forecast on Tuesday for Wednesday was for 1-2" of snow with very little ice accumulation, conditions improving throughout the day.


Incorrect. That was the forecast for *Tuesday*. Early Wednesday morning was wen the ice was coming. Yesterday morning was incredibly iced over in DC.

But again, this just demonstrates that B6 thinks they know better than the other airlines. And they don't.



Then it seems we have little more than a fundamental definition of stinginess.

What does JetBlue lose by issuing a waiver?

Yes. I'm not a moron.

Do I know that the majority of the passengers were able to get to the airport safely? Not for certain, just like you have no idea that they couldn't. You make it sound like it was chaos and bedlam on the streets around DC. I just don't see that from the details I've gathered.

And I just disagree that there is an absolute need to provide customers with free changes to their travel plans when it snows, even if other carriers are doing so. We may never see eye to eye on this one, but I don't see the need based on what the weather forecast was and I believe that the actual performance of the carrier bears out this decision.

I'm in DC and I can tell you that yesterday morning was bad. Quite bad. I wouldn't have gone to IAD if I had to fly out. Not safe. So I guess I would have eaten the change fee and let JetBlue eek out more profit due to weather. Yay for JetBlue.

Incorrect. That was the forecast for *Tuesday*. Early Wednesday morning was wen the ice was coming. Yesterday morning was incredibly iced over in DC.

No, that was the forecast for Wednesday morning, as issued Tuesday.

But again, this just demonstrates that B6 thinks they know better than the other airlines. And they don't.

Given that Wednesday flights not cancelled on Tuesday were not affected by weather in DC... I don't follow.

I'm in DC and I can tell you that yesterday morning was bad. Quite bad. I wouldn't have gone to IAD if I had to fly out. Not safe. So I guess I would have eaten the change fee and let JetBlue eek out more profit due to weather. Yay for JetBlue.

The OP was able to explain his/her discomfort with traveling to the airport in the forecast weather and have the change fee waived; I don't think you would have faced the level of customer disservice you are suggesting.

No, that was the forecast for Wednesday morning, as issued Tuesday.


Simply wrong. Cite it. The forecast was for snow Tuesday, ice Wednesday morning. And that's exactly what happened.


Given that Wednesday flights not cancelled on Tuesday were not affected by weather in DC... I don't follow.

Gee, isn't that a bit like saying except for all the poor people in India, everyone is well off?

The OP was able to explain his/her discomfort with traveling to the airport in the forecast weather and have the change fee waived; I don't think you would have faced the level of customer disservice you are suggesting.

I see. So the folks that aren't wise enough to ask for a supervisor, they get to pay the change fee. The ones that complain, they get it waived. Is that what you're saying?

And that's good customer service how?

Simply wrong. Cite it. The forecast was for snow Tuesday, ice Wednesday morning. And that's exactly what happened.

Here's one (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/11152373-post3.html), from JetBlueFA referencing the NOAA forecast at 3:37 PM Tuesday.

Here's another (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/11152388-post5.html), from the OP, citing the NWS DC forecast.

Gee, isn't that a bit like saying except for all the poor people in India, everyone is well off?

People whose plans were affected by cancellations were rebooked for no charge--ie, they were given a waiver.

I see. So the folks that aren't wise enough to ask for a supervisor, they get to pay the change fee. The ones that complain, they get it waived. Is that what you're saying?

No. I'm saying that, if I were personally in the position of being booked to fly somewhere, and I didn't feel comfortable traveling to the airport, I'd call and explain my position to customer service.

Here's another (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/11152388-post5.html), from the OP, citing the NWS DC forecast.


I said:

The forecast was for snow Tuesday, ice Wednesday morning. And that's exactly what happened.

Weather report says:

ADDITIONAL SNOW AND SLEET ACCUMULATIONS LATE TODAY [TUESDAY] AND THIS EVENING WILL BE 1 TO 2 INCHES. THAT WILL BE FOLLOWED BY ICE ACCUMULATIONS OVERNIGHT INTO WEDNESDAY OF ONE TO TWO TENTHS OF AN INCH.


So, thanks for providing a cite for my point.


People whose plans were affected by cancellations were rebooked for no charge--ie, they were given a waiver.


No one disputes that. And it would be a but shocking if B6 didn't right? Your flight was canceled for weather but we're going to keep your money and charge you to rebook.

That's like applauding a dog for eating.


No. I'm saying that, if I were personally in the position of being booked to fly somewhere, and I didn't feel comfortable traveling to the airport, I'd call and explain my position to customer service.

And depending on who you got, you might be SOL.

So, thanks for providing a cite for my point.

That 1-2" of snow would be under little ice accumulation? That's what I said.

And depending on who you got, you might be SOL.

We're not going to see eye to eye on this, I'm afraid.

That 1-2" of snow would be under little ice accumulation? That's what I said.


Well it's also what I said. Shrug.


We're not going to see eye to eye on this, I'm afraid.

Apparently not.

I just feel bad for the folks that ended up paying the change fee yesterday because they didn't want to risk it on the roads, getting to IAD. If only they had known that 1) other airlines would have allowed them to rebook at no fee and 2) if they just .....ed enough and got to speak to a supervisor, they'd be all set, or 3) if they were lucky enough to have their flight canceled, they were golden.

What does JetBlue lose by issuing a waiver?It costs money to do it. I mentioned it up-thread. It costs money to operate the flights that now no one is flying on. And there is potential lost revenue by consuming seats that would otherwise be available to sell.

I'm in DC and I can tell you that yesterday morning was bad. Quite bad. I wouldn't have gone to IAD if I had to fly out. Not safe. So I guess I would have eaten the change fee and let JetBlue eek out more profit due to weather. Yay for JetBlue.

The earliest flights were mostly canceled, so there aren't many who would have actually been affected. Were the roads really so bad that you wouldn't drive at 9am?

The earliest flights were mostly canceled, so there aren't many who would have actually been affected. Were the roads really so bad that you wouldn't drive at 9am?

I had a US Air flight out of DCA that was not canceled. After walking my dog in the morning and realizing how icy it was, I didn't want to even try walking on the sidewalks, let alone drive.

Thankfully US Air had a waiver in place so I can fly tomorrow instead.

It costs money to do it. I mentioned it up-thread. It costs money to operate the flights that now no one is flying on. And there is potential lost revenue by consuming seats that would otherwise be available to sell.


All you're doing is switching folks around, not giving refunds. Airlines each have to weigh their customer service against the cost of providing that service. We saw yesterday how JetBlue makes that calculation relative to its peers.

I had a US Air flight out of DCA that was not canceled. After walking my dog in the morning and realizing how icy it was, I didn't want to even try walking on the sidewalks, let alone drive.

Sidewalks and roads are very, very, very different things. Walking the sidewalks in NYC was treacherous for the most part yesterday here in NYC, too. The roads were completely clear. Unless you are walking the sidewalks all the way to the airport, I don't really see the relationship as being all that strong. Glad that you got to postpone your flight though.
All you're doing is switching folks around, not giving refunds.
Did you even read what I wrote? I never mentioned refunds, but I did specifically address the real and potential costs of "switching folks around."

Sidewalks and roads are very, very, very different things. Walking the sidewalks in NYC was treacherous for the most part yesterday here in NYC, too. The roads were completely clear. Unless you are walking the sidewalks all the way to the airport, I don't really see the relationship as being all that strong. Glad that you got to postpone your flight though.


Um, I take the metro to the airport.

Lots of people take the metro/bus to IAD. To get to the metro and bus you walk on sidewalks, not in the middle of the road.


Did you even read what I wrote? I never mentioned refunds, but I did specifically address the real and potential costs of "switching folks around."

Right, and I think that those costs are minimal compared to the customer service hits the airline takes. That's my point.

Um, I take the metro to the airport.

You said that you would be averse to driving. I can't imagine how I could have interpreted that to mean driving to the airport. ;)

Was Metro running on schedule? Did you go out other than to walk your dog, or did you stay in all day? And, again, neither of us actually know exactly how many passengers actually showed up for the flights that they were scheduled to fly, but I'm guessing that it was much closer to all of them than none of them.


Right, and I think that those costs are minimal compared to the customer service hits the airline takes. That's my point.
And how do you quantify the "hit" that they have taken? Do you think it actually exists other than here on FT? I'd be pretty surprised to hear that they have any appreciable costs from the policy choice that they made.

You said that you would be averse to driving. I can't imagine how I could have interpreted that to mean driving to the airport. ;)


Well I can tell you that when you walk on the sidewalk in DC you end up crossing lots of streets. I saw their condition; it wasn't pretty. :)


Was Metro running on schedule? Did you go out other than to walk your dog, or did you stay in all day? And, again, neither of us actually know exactly how many passengers actually showed up for the flights that they were scheduled to fly, but I'm guessing that it was much closer to all of them than none of them.


Don't know if Metro was running on schedule or not; I know that buses were not. My wife's bus was running 30 minutes late.

I did go out other to walk my dog, in the afternoon, and it was still icy.

Road reports throughout the day suggested heavy backups and more than a couple of accidents.


And how do you quantify the "hit" that they have taken? Do you think it actually exists other than here on FT? I'd be pretty surprised to hear that they have any appreciable costs from the policy choice that they made.

I don't understand the FT comment. Do you think the OP's family member cares less about this inconvenience because of FT?

I recall yesterday on the local news the newscasters noting that the airlines had issued travel waivers for the airports. Oops.

I don't understand the FT comment. Do you think the OP's family member cares less about this inconvenience because of FT? No. I'm just guessing that the number of people who feel that they got hosed by jetBlue on this one is very low, and that there is more discussion and outrage here than in the rest of the world. In the long run I do not see it as a PR issue for them at all, so I do not see any long term costs to them for the choice they made.

I recall yesterday on the local news the newscasters noting that the airlines had issued travel waivers for the airports. Oops.
Hardly a surprise that the media screwed something up. Are you going to blame their inability or lack of desire to fact-check on jetBlue? Or suggest that jetBlue should take their cues on operational issues from the local newscasters?

No. I'm just guessing that the number of people who feel that they got hosed by jetBlue on this one is very low, and that there is more discussion and outrage here than in the rest of the world. In the long run I do not see it as a PR issue for them at all, so I do not see any long term costs to them for the choice they made.

Hardly a surprise that the media screwed something up. Are you going to blame their inability or lack of desire to fact-check on jetBlue? Or suggest that jetBlue should take their cues on operational issues from the local newscasters?

No, the local newscast was to point out that, like it or not for Jetblue, expectations get set. They get set by other airlines. Folks might call comparing Jetblue to AA as apples to oranges, and at some level they're right. But on another, airlines need to be reactive to what their competitors are doing. If folks are seeing all other airlines give weather waivers and JetBlue is holding out, I don't think that is a good thing (for JetBlue - it's great for the others).

But as someone said earlier, I don't think we're ever going to agree on this topic. JetBlue dropped the ball. :)

No, the local newscast was to point out that, like it or not for Jetblue, expectations get set. They get set by other airlines. Folks might call comparing Jetblue to AA as apples to oranges, and at some level they're right. But on another, airlines need to be reactive to what their competitors are doing. If folks are seeing all other airlines give weather waivers and JetBlue is holding out, I don't think that is a good thing (for JetBlue - it's great for the others).

So jetBlue should set policy based on what the media is reporting that other carriers are doing? Because the media gets to set expectations ?

That's rich.

Whether we agree or not on whether there should have been a waiver issued, the thoughts that jetBlue must follow all the other carriers in their policies or react because the media has "set expectations" are ridiculous.

If jetBlue is following the lead of other carriers I guess they also need to start charging for the first checked bag, jack up their change fees, add a second (or third!) tier of reward redemption with no limitations, outsource their call center to India, etc. Right?

Each carrier gets to operate on their own. None is dependent on any other to dictate policy, process or costs. In this case you think jetBlue made a mistake because you don't like the decision. But to claim that it is a mistake solely because other carriers did things one way and jetBlue did them another is just plain crazy. There is a long history of doing things differently at jetBlue, for good or ill. In this case I don't think there is nearly as much "ill" that came from the decision as you do, but I guess that isn't relevant, is it?

So jetBlue should set policy based on what the media is reporting that other carriers are doing? Because the media gets to set expectations ?


It's not a normative question; it's an analytical one. @:-)

Put another way, it doesn't matter whether or not the media should set expectations. The matter is that they do.



If jetBlue is following the lead of other carriers I guess they also need to start charging for the first checked bag, jack up their change fees, add a second (or third!) tier of reward redemption with no limitations, outsource their call center to India, etc. Right?


Absolutely! How many times do you hear people in here complaining about the useless TrueBlue program? You think that's out of the blue? EVERYTHING airlines do is with an eye on the other. You're fooling yourself if you don't think this is true.


There is a long history of doing things differently at jetBlue, for good or ill. In this case I don't think there is nearly as much "ill" that came from the decision as you do, but I guess that isn't relevant, is it?

The mistake your making is you think this is somehow a good thing. It's a cap in B6's cap because they held firm and didn't issue a weather waiver. It's not.

Absolutely! How many times do you hear people in here complaining about the useless TrueBlue program? You think that's out of the blue? EVERYTHING airlines do is with an eye on the other. You're fooling yourself if you don't think this is true.
There are many useless things about the TB program as it currently exists. But I still don't think that adding additional fees for checked bags and the like is the correct way for jetBlue to go, even though "everyone else" is doing it. I agree that everything is done with an eye on the other. That is vastly different than saying that they all must do exactly the same thing or the one outlier must be wrong. Heck, jetBlue only lost a couple million dollars last quarter as opposed to a couple hundred. Clearly they are doing something wrong because they aren't losing money as quickly as the other carriers. :rolleyes:


The mistake your making is you think this is somehow a good thing. It's a cap in B6's cap because they held firm and didn't issue a weather waiver. It's not.
I do think that their decision to not issue a waiver was a good one. It made sound financial and operational sense. Your main argument against them seems to be that they are the only one who didn't so they must be wrong. I think that is a ridiculous justification. They were able to operate the majority of their flights safely and pretty close to on time. Why should they choose to absorb additional costs when the roads were open, the airport was open and the skies were open?

You have asserted that it was a horrible choice from a "customer service" perspective, with the implication that customers will choose other carriers in the future because they got hosed on this deal. The total population that could have even potentially been affected is tiny - no more than 1800 people and likely much closer to about 1000. Even if they all tell 10 friends about how badly they were treated by jetBlue (and that is assuming that many of them actually wanted a change) the numbers aren't that significant. I do not think that there is a PR hit here, and jetBlue also avoided a financial hit. That is a win for them in my book. Or a feather in their cap, I suppose.

There are many useless things about the TB program as it currently exists. But I still don't think that adding additional fees for checked bags and the like is the correct way for jetBlue to go, even though "everyone else" is doing it. I agree that everything is done with an eye on the other. That is vastly different than saying that they all must do exactly the same thing or the one outlier must be wrong. Heck, jetBlue only lost a couple million dollars last quarter as opposed to a couple hundred. Clearly they are doing something wrong because they aren't losing money as quickly as the other carriers. :rolleyes:


You completely miss the point. What is this thread about? It's about being customer-focused. What JetBlue should be doing, if it wants to be customer-focused (that is its mission statement, is it not?), is take the best parts of what other airlines do. They get it when it comes to TV and free snacks. They don't get it when it comes to flexibility for the customer during IRROPs.
How many threads have we had in here over the last year where people complain about the lack of flexibility (be it a weather waiver, not being able to be ticketed on another carrier, etc. etc.) from a customer perspective? If you think B6 is doing well in this area I believe you are mistaken.

This was a great opportunity for B6 to make gains in the customer-focused department. It chose not to. It favored the finance department.



I do think that their decision to not issue a waiver was a good one. It made sound financial and operational sense. Your main argument against them seems to be that they are the only one who didn't so they must be wrong. I think that is a ridiculous justification.


Again, not quite. My main argument is that this move wasn't customer-focused. It has to do with the thread title.

My ancillary arguments were about operations. I'm not even sure it makes operations sense to not issue a waiver. I haven't been convinced. But that's not my main gripe. My main gripe is that B6 bills itself as being "different" and the only difference tends to boil down to chips and television. I'd like B6 to start being the same when it comes to offering what other airlines offer in terms of customer service.


You have asserted that it was a horrible choice from a "customer service" perspective, with the implication that customers will choose other carriers in the future because they got hosed on this deal. The total population that could have even potentially been affected is tiny - no more than 1800 people and likely much closer to about 1000. Even if they all tell 10 friends about how badly they were treated by jetBlue (and that is assuming that many of them actually wanted a change) the numbers aren't that significant. I do not think that there is a PR hit here, and jetBlue also avoided a financial hit. That is a win for them in my book. Or a feather in their cap, I suppose.

This, to me, is just silly. Multiply this event by the hundreds (thousands?) of examples of B6 not being flexible with customers, and you have a real issue.

You see, this is just one tiny example of a much larger problem at B6. I recognize it. Do you?

Don't know if Metro was running on schedule or not; I know that buses were not. My wife's bus was running 30 minutes late.

I did go out other to walk my dog, in the afternoon, and it was still icy.



Someone alert local DC media, Bus Drivers were forced to operate in unsafe road conditions. And DC schools are endangering lives of their students, as you said it was still icy in the afternoon. :D Here's a suggestion for next time there is a bit of inclement weather, if you can't walk on the sidewalk, take a cab.

As President Obama said "its just a little ice"

Someone alert local DC media, Bus Drivers were forced to operate in unsafe road conditions. And DC schools are endangering lives of their students, as you said it was still icy in the afternoon. :D Here's a suggestion for next time there is a bit of inclement weather, if you can't walk on the sidewalk, take a cab.

As President Obama said "its just a little ice"

You should work for JetBlue. Seems you share their customer-oriented empathy and philosophy.

What they could have done was to tell the supervisors to be more leniant on waiving the change fees for the secondary storm areas (such as IAD), so that those who are really nervous could change their plans but not to make it so easy (don't allow the changes via web) so that those who do not care either way will not change their plans.

This opinion comes from my 23 years as a commercial pilot.

When looking at a complex weather sitution it is rarely a clear decision as to what should be done. Have several qualified professionals look at the same data and you will get several different opinions. You won't know which one(s) is right until after the fact when you have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

In these situations, airlines make the decisions which they believe will be the best for their airline and their customers. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are not. JetBlue was publically hammered, some time ago, for being too agressive with trying to maintain their schedule during winter storms. It's not surprising that they're now a bit more conservative choosing to cancel more flights in advance in order to be able to resume normal operations more quickly after the weather improves.

What they could have done was to tell the supervisors to be more leniant on waiving the change fees for the secondary storm areas (such as IAD), so that those who are really nervous could change their plans but not to make it so easy (don't allow the changes via web) so that those who do not care either way will not change their plans.
They did this! When the OP asked a supervisor for a waiver it was issued. The front line was not empowered to do so but supervisors were.
This, to me, is just silly. Multiply this event by the hundreds (thousands?) of examples of B6 not being flexible with customers, and you have a real issue.

There is a difference between having bad policies and having bad individual experiences.

I will agree that, at its most basic level, the decision to not issue a waiver is not "customer friendly" in the sense of yielding to the whim of the customer so as to appear generous. That doesn't mean that it was wrong or even that, in the big picture, it was bad for customers. If this move saved them money and didn't cost them any long-term revenue then it is customer friendly in the sense that it keeps the company in business.

I will agree that, at its most basic level, the decision to not issue a waiver is not "customer friendly" in the sense of yielding to the whim of the customer so as to appear generous. That doesn't mean that it was wrong or even that, in the big picture, it was bad for customers. If this move saved them money and didn't cost them any long-term revenue then it is customer friendly in the sense that it keeps the company in business.

I hope you realize the consequences of holding that philosophy.

Don't like paying for drinks in the coach cabin? It's good for the company, therefore it's good for you!

Don't like not being able to use those miles for awards? It's better for that company that way, therefore it is good for you, too!

Don't like not interlining with other carriers in cases of IRROPS? Cheaper for us, so that's better for you, too!

Personally, that's not a philosophy I want any airline I traveling on adopting.

I hope you realize the consequences of holding that philosophy.

Don't like paying for drinks in the coach cabin? It's good for the company, therefore it's good for you!

Don't like not being able to use those miles for awards? It's better for that company that way, therefore it is good for you, too!

Don't like not interlining with other carriers in cases of IRROPS? Cheaper for us, so that's better for you, too!

Personally, that's not a philosophy I want any airline I traveling on adopting.
If you'll read the other posts I have made this evening I think you can tell that I do not actually believe that absolutely. But I do believe it when the actual impact on passengers is virtually nil. When it has a material impact on the customer I generally disagree with it.

You're the one who said earlier that it would be a good idea for them to start charging for checked luggage, remember? ;)

If you'll read the other posts I have made this evening I think you can tell that I do not actually believe that absolutely. But I do believe it when the actual impact on passengers is virtually nil. When it has a material impact on the customer I generally disagree with it.

You're the one who said earlier that it would be a good idea for them to start charging for checked luggage, remember? ;)

Heh well obviously we've come to the end of the road with this one. :)