MilesBuzz! - "Savvy Traveler" Rant

I would just like to address this common fallacy that using your FF miles for economy fares is not getting the best value out of them. Or as an article that's floating around the FF world puts it "Using miles for economy fares? Savvy travelers know better." Says who? It all depends on how you define "value." Even if you define that strictly as dollars and cents then it still isn't necessarily true...
Ex. 1: Traveler purchases $1,000 LAX-CDG fare and uses 30,000 miles to upgrade to a $5,000 business class fare. Thus 30,000 miles=$4,000. Nice deal. End result: "Savvy" traveler gets to Paris using 30,000 miles and spends $1,000.
Ex. 2: Traveler uses 60,000 miles for a $1,000 LAX-CDG fare. Thus 60,000 miles=$1,000. In dollars and cents terms it doesn't appear to be nearly as good a deal as previous example, but what is this end result? The same as the first example: Non-Savvy traveler gets to Paris. Although he did use up 60,000 miles but with total out of pocket cost: $0.00. (we'll consider fees canceling each other out)
I've even seen ridiculous examples of getting an upgrade award for a fare that would normally go for over $10,000. So what? You can say it would normally cost $25,000, which would work out on paper to be some pretty savvy value on your 30,000 miles, but after a certain point who cares? The end result is the same: You get to Paris. In comfortable style, yes, but still, you got to Paris just like the guy back in coach. The difference is, it cost "savvy" traveler $1,000 whereas the guy in coach got there for free (relatively speaking here).
So it all depends on what you consider "value".
I don't consider 30,000 miles worth some extra leg room.
30,000 miles isn't worth getting on and off the plane first. As far as I know first class passengers take off and land at roughly the same time as coach.
For me, 30,000 miles isn't worth the alcohol and a fancy meal. I can even actually go several hours without eating anything at all! It's really not that hard.
But again, that's just me. Everyone has their own definition of "value" is my point.
Apparently some define "value" as spending $1,000 for a few hours of extra leg room and extra drinks and a nice dessert. Personally, that would fall under my definition of "squandering" but each to his own.
If you enjoy spending $1,000 to sit in the front of the plane with a big pillow and can afford it, congratulations and more power to you, but as for me, my definition of the "savvy traveler" is one who has an extra $1,000 to spend once he gets to Paris.

I agree that value is in the eye (and the pocketbook) of the beholder.

And I agree that defining that value based on what the airline charges for cash airfares makes sense only if those fares are something you would ordinarily pay.

Edit to add:
To be clear, though, I think there are some times when premium redemptions make sense. On your LAX-CDG route, AA charges 60K miles for coach, 90K for business. If I had 180K miles to burn, I'd rather go twice in Business Class and arrive relatively refreshed, than go three times and arrived exhausted. It's not about the food and drink, but rather being able to sleep much better in the J class seats than in Y.

I would just like to address this common fallacy that using your FF miles for economy fares is not getting the best value out of them. Or as an article that's floating around the FF world puts it "Using miles for economy fares? Savvy travelers know better." Says who? It all depends on how you define "value." Even if you define that strictly as dollars and cents then it still isn't necessarily true...
Ex. 1: Traveler purchases $1,000 LAX-CDG fare and uses 30,000 miles to upgrade to a $5,000 business class fare. Thus 30,000 miles=$4,000. Nice deal. End result: "Savvy" traveler gets to Paris using 30,000 miles and spends $1,000.

I agree with Swag that you bring up some good points questioning the conventional wisdom that points are best spent on biz-travel instead of coach. Still, me and my butt agree more with Swag's preferences.

Using NW WorldPerks as an example, a typical upgrade fare from LA to Paris will cost about $2,500 cash for the "B" bucket coach fare PLUS 60k miles. I only wish I could get away with paying just $1,000. Actual costs seem to make your point evern more strongly that biz-class upgrades are a fool's choice. Generally its better to pay points (plus fees) for that biz class ticket outright, but that won't change the merits of your arguement.

Also, try pricing a biz or first-class award ticket through London, and one will be shocked by the extreme "luxury tax" the Brit impose on premium travel. That would be another point for your arguement.

.. as for me, my definition of the "savvy traveler" is one who has an extra $1,000 to spend once he gets to Paris.

Where do you draw the line? Would you spend a night in a hostel in a shared room if your out of pocket costs are minimal? Would you eat only at McD?

The typical goal is get the highest value for what one considers affordable (and that parameter varies greatly), not to spend as little as possible on the absolute scale.

And in terms of maximum value, premium class tickets for the price of economy plus upgrade mileage are usually considered the best deal.

You can go ahead and book your award seat to CDG in the back of the plane. That just means more upgrade seats available for me!

The typical goal is get the highest value for what one considers affordable (and that parameter varies greatly), not to spend as little as possible on the absolute scale.
I don't agree at all that this is the "typical" goal, and in fact I agree completely with the OP. Frankly, I view the pricing differential of most J/F fares to be completely out of line with the marginal value of the product. There is no way on earth that I would pay $5000 out of my own pocket to get across the Atlantic, a roundtrip journey for me of less than 13 hours. Since there is no chance that I would ever spend that extra $4000 for J in any case, the fact that I could get it for 30,000 miles still doesn't make those miles "worth" any more. The value for me is getting myself to Paris for zero cash outlay.

Two things add to the equation: first, the fact that I travel heavily for work and earn boatloads of miles while getting paid for it, and second, the fact that I am a OW top tier elite. As such I get to sit in the lounge and check in at the elite desks no matter whether I am traveling J/F or not. That, to me, is a big chunk of what you're paying for when you have a J/F ticket.

The way I see it, every person makes his/her own calculation. I find it very annoying (and incorrect) to be derided as a bumpkin every time I mention that I have used miles for a Y award. :rolleyes:

I view the pricing differential of most J/F fares to be completely out of line with the marginal value of the product.
This, clearly, is a "to each their own" scenario.
There is no way on earth that I would pay $5000 out of my own pocket to get across the Atlantic, a roundtrip journey for me of less than 13 hours.
That is not unreasonable at all, IMO. However, since my travels primarily take me Asia and Australia, your "13 hour roundtrip" is not quite the same either.
The value for me is getting myself to Paris for zero cash outlay.
And, similarly, for me the value is getting to Asia, spending a marginal amount of cash, requalifying for top tier elite, AND having a nice flight in both directions! ;)
I get to sit in the lounge and check in at the elite desks no matter whether I am traveling J/F or not. That, to me, is a big chunk of what you're paying for when you have a J/F ticket.
On a US-Europe routing, I can appreciate your viewpoint. On a US-Asia routing, not so much. The sleep is equally or more important to a successful stay, IMO.
I find it very annoying (and incorrect) to be derided as a bumpkin every time I mention that I have used miles for a Y award.
I suggest that you are neither wrong, nor a bumpkin, but rather are a great deal TOO sensitive to other's views of right and wrong.
Dave

I suggest that you are ... a great deal TOO sensitive to other's views of right and wrong.
Take a look at some of the derision heaped on Y award travelers in the BA forum. "Too sensitive?" Please. After years of getting flak on this issue, I'm sick to death of the attitude of most posters, which does not in the least recognize the concept of "to each his own."

I'll gladly pay $4,000 for my NYC-Asia routes in C. ;)
If it existed, that is.
So, for me it's like 60K miles = $1,000 or 90K miles = $4,000.

Take a look at some of the derision heaped on Y award travelers in the BA forum.
Derision?? On an IBB??? You cant be serious??!! Say it ain't soooo!!! ;) :D
After years of getting flak on this issue, I'm sick to death of the attitude of most posters, which does not in the least recognize the concept of "to each his own."
I take it you havent spent much time in Omni as a conservative, have you???
;)
In any case, as I said upthread - it is all a "to each his own issue" but that different patterns may tend to lead to different decisions.
Dave

I'm really glad to see this thread, because so many people seem to value their miles based on the cost of the airfare and this is not correct.

When redeeming miles bottom line is that the flight is only worth what you would pay for it. If a TATL fare costs $1000 in Y then the F fare can only be valued at how much you would be willing to pay above that base Y fare.

People seem to fall into general categories; either you are a frequent traveler with expendable miles, or you travel infrequently where accrued miles have more value. Therefore, there must be some sort of formula that could be calculated to assign value to seats in F. It seems to me the more miles that you travel, the less value that your miles actually have. Therefore upgrading upfront makes sense. The fewer miles that you have, the more value that your miles actually have and you probably wouldn't be willing to use them to upgrade to F.

There must be some sort of regression that can be calculated, however I am not a statisticion.

I take it you havent spent much time in Omni as a conservative, have you???
No...but as a card-carrying member of the Rational Party I have had the fun of being flamed by both sides :D

In any case, as I said upthread - it is all a "to each his own issue" but that different patterns may tend to lead to different decisions.
We agree. I said the same thing in my first post. Yay!

While hoping not to deride anyone from any side of this discussion, let me point out that it's not always true that the 25,000 mile domestic Y award is a poor value, even if you do base the "value" on the price of the ticket alone.

I am currently holding four domestic Y Skymiles awards for my family and me to fly into HDN for a ski vacation at Steamboat Springs. Total cost: 100,000 Skymiles plus $40 in fees. The ticket price when I booked the awards was just over $1,000 each. So that's $4,000 "value" for 100,000 Skymiles, which is pretty close to the $4,000 value for 90,000 miles cited above for a J TATL ticket, which is generally touted as so much a better deal than a domestic Y award as to be laughable.

Aside from that point, kids also add a variable. The value per person to fly my wife and me in J is much higher than the value per person to fly in J with 2 small kids. And when you're flying four people with miles, you spend the miles very frugally even if you have more than a million, whereas if I were travelling alone with a miles budget over a million, I'd probably use a lot of those miles to fly J.

Don't forget the value of paying for miles that count toward elite status. Because of that, I prefer to use my miles for upgrading.

You can go ahead and book your award seat to CDG in the back of the plane. That just means more upgrade seats available for me!

Ahhh, there's that so friendly and enlightening attitude we coach flyers just love about these boards. Thanks for your special sort of clarity to the conversation.
Now, as for actually adding something to the conversation, I can see in the not too distant future when I will consider that extra reclining room of first class having much more "value" and indeed worth the extra cash but fortunately, at the moment, the back of the plane works fine for me. So value not only differs from person to person, as has been stated by most everyone, but it will change over time for the individual too. So it's kind of pointless to discuss what value is when it's definition is wide open.
But the main point of my original post was to communicate my umbrage at the "conventional wisdom" that one is not a "savvy" traveler simply because one does not use their miles for upgrades. An absurd conclusion by nearly any measure.

So value not only differs from person to person, as has been stated by most everyone, but it will change over time for the individual too. So it's kind of pointless to discuss what value is when it's definition is wide open.
But the main point of my original post was to communicate my umbrage at the "conventional wisdom" that one is not a "savvy" traveler simply because one does not use their miles for upgrades. An absurd conclusion by nearly any measure.

Thanks for this post, and I agree with you. To add to the dynamic nature of value vis-a-vis one's life stage, allow me to throw in two other factors: choice of airlines and Y-to-J vs. J-to-F upgrade.

First, to qualify as a "savvy" traveler, one had better not be wasting any miles upgrading on most US or other airlines with inferior J & F products. Second, for airlines with a strong J product with flat or lie-flat seats, Y-to-J upgrades are much "savvier" than J-to-F upgrades. For instance, on SQ 77W, F seats offer only minor incremental benefits over J.

Sure if you calculate value with mathematics, looking at fare cost against point spend, then booking a Y ticket with FF pts is not as valuable as booking a J or F ticket with FF pts.

But I have to agree the "to each his own" mentality. I use my points in the way I perceive them to be the most valuable to me, not necessarily the way they are always the most valuable mathematically.

For example, 70k FFP for an NH flight in C R/T from LAX to NRT is an excellent value compared to a Y ticket for 40k FFP on the same route, because the extra 30K FFP for the C seat is worth it in my personal opinion.

For some people, perhaps they need more ticket quantity, so the increased amount of Y tickets they could get for an equivalent would be more important. Or perhaps they have back problems and really need to lay down, so F is a valuable spend.

So I agree - value is in the eye of the traveler. :)

For me, the FF miles allow me to travel where and how I wouldn't otherwise. For example, I wouldn't fly in coach for 13 or 14 hour to Australia. I can handle it in business or first, but wouldn't pay the huge prce. So the FF miles allow me to go places that I wouldn't go otherwise.

So it all depends on what you consider "value".
I don't consider 30,000 miles worth some extra leg room.

I think you've overlooked the value of systemwides offered by both AA and UA for international travel to top tier flyers.

I've never spent a mile to upgrade since I first got status on UA back in 1992. I won't spend the money, either. Systemwides, though, are a whole different issue. I have 4 itineraries over Jan-Feb that are upgraded on $400 base fares which are a fantastic return on the miles I fly. Maybe that's what you should be aiming for if you want to upgrade.

For me, the FF miles allow me to travel where and how I wouldn't otherwise. For example, I wouldn't fly in coach for 13 or 14 hour to Australia. I can handle it in business or first, but wouldn't pay the huge prce. So the FF miles allow me to go places that I wouldn't go otherwise.

In our case, my wife and I love to travel to Europe. However, if we fly in economy, she will not get any sleep, and will be cranky and jet lagged for the first 2-3 days. In Biz, however, she is able to get some good hours of sleep before our first day in Europe. (I, on the other hand, can sleep in any airplane seat, on any length flight. I cannot stay awake on a plane.) But we would not spend $4-5000 each for such Biz seats (at least until the kids are out of college).

Therefore, for us (and it is a personal thing), the best use of FF miles is for TATL Biz award seats. We get to enjoy Europe, and it make the difference between a good vacation (wife jet lagged and not really enjoying fully for the first few days), and a great vacation to Europe.

In our case, the "math" is simple. YMMV

I agree with OP 100%. I do however, feel that when the trip is special and involves my wife traveling with me for a 15+ hour flight splurging additional miles for C or F on a good airline can be worth it. it's the difference between the trip starting at the airport as opposed to arrival.

One man's opinion: 1st and Business Class travel is grossly overrated - I think a lot of it is just an ego thing because it makes the front-enders feel "special". I was a UA 1K for a few years and have flown many times in upgraded status - at least 20 times on the ORD-HNL nonstops alone - and I admit it was nicer than sitting in the back of the bus but definitely not worth spending extra money or using miles. Through the years I've redeemed somewhere between 3M to 4M frequent flyer miles, all have been used on saver-type coach awards, I haven't used one single mile on an upgrade.

One man's opinion: 1st and Business Class travel is grossly overrated - I think a lot of it is just an ego thing because it makes the front-enders feel "special". I was a UA 1K for a few years and have flown many times in upgraded status - at least 20 times on the ORD-HNL nonstops alone - and I admit it was nicer than sitting in the back of the bus but definitely not worth spending extra money or using miles. Through the years I've redeemed somewhere between 3M to 4M frequent flyer miles, all have been used on saver-type coach awards, I haven't used one single mile on an upgrade.

For ORD-HNL, I agree that it's not worth the miles to upgrade.
That's what CR-1s and e-500s are for. :D

For routes like ORD-HKG, it does make a big difference and additional miles are well worth it IMHO.

One man's opinion: 1st and Business Class travel is grossly overrated - I think a lot of it is just an ego thing because it makes the front-enders feel "special". I was a UA 1K for a few years and have flown many times in upgraded status - at least 20 times on the ORD-HNL nonstops alone - and I admit it was nicer than sitting in the back of the bus but definitely not worth spending extra money or using miles. Through the years I've redeemed somewhere between 3M to 4M frequent flyer miles, all have been used on saver-type coach awards, I haven't used one single mile on an upgrade.

You picked a domestic F service route. No wonder you see little value in the reward there; there is little added value in that upgraded service.

I have redeemed miles for upgrades (domestic only thanks to co-pay issues), international Y and international J tickets. When I want the comfort of the big comfy seat I book it. When I'm not as worried about it I book the Y seat. There are times I've come home from a trip and thought that I should've paid the lower rate and saved miles.

That being said, generally the highest dollar value is achieved by redeeming for long-haul premium cabin rewards. That may not be what any particular individual values most, but it is likely the best dollar value proposition for the miles.

Re the BA forum and the harassment there, I'm not familiar with it, but if folks are booking short-haul Y flights using points out of the UK they probably actually are wasting the points. Often the taxes are a much more significant portion of those fares. Using points saves a negligible amount of money. If they are doing longh-haul it is a bit different, but I know nothing about what they are actually doing.

One man's opinion: 1st and Business Class travel is grossly overrated - I think a lot of it is just an ego thing because it makes the front-enders feel "special".
While I do think F and J are grossly overpriced (most of the time), I don't think they are grossly overrated (also, most of the time). Certainly, on a long-haul international flight where I am traveling for work and have to (a) absolutely minimize the time I spend getting in and out of the airport, (b) go to work immediately after getting off a red-eye, or (c) do tons of work on the plane--which for me requires a lot of pieces of paper spread around and sometimes a laptop--flying in the front of the plane and checking in as quickly as possible really are rather critical. It's either that or spend another day away from home so that I can get to my destination a day early--not something I want to do, given the number of days I'm away from home anyway.

At the same time, when I'm on vacation, usually I don't care about sitting up front--unless it's an insanely long flight. The only time I did use miles to fly in first class, real first, was when I flew to Mongolia for vacation. That was a triumph of booking (PHL-ORD-NRT-ICN-ULN, on two separate tickets), and it was totally worth the 180,000 miles I spent for it.

You picked a domestic F service route. No wonder you see little value in the reward there; there is little added value in that upgraded service.
My feelings exactly. There's usually little point in domestic F, unless you are very tall (I am not) or going home after a very long and hard day (sometimes I am, and then I really appreciate it).

Through the years I've redeemed somewhere between 3M to 4M frequent flyer miles, all have been used on saver-type coach awards, I haven't used one single mile on an upgrade.

Fascinating, as I am the exact opposite. I have never redeemed for a Y award to the best of my recollection.

The combination of:

- Flying in Y
- Spending miles to do it
- Not earning miles on the flight

doesn't really compute for me, unless there is some sort of emergency and I need a last-minute ticket and I don't want to pay walk-up. That's understandable.

If I'm going to fly in Y -and- I am not earning miles, I might as well book through PL at some deep discount fare. Otherwise I'm spending 50k miles to save just a few hundred bucks, perhaps less, and that's a rather low valuation of miles (mathematically speaking).

Of course, that is only mathematically, which is not the best measure for determining the value of your miles. I speak only for myself, and my core rule still applies: miles are best spent in whatever way makes you happiest, and value is in the eye of the beholder. To each his own.

The premise of this entire thread is wrong. Nowhere, not on the BA forum or anywhere else does anyone deride using miles for Y tickets on LONG HAUL INTERCONTINENTAL TRAVEL. They deride using them for US Domestic flights (other than last minute emergency fares and the like when paid fares can be extortionate) or inter-European travel, where quite frankly it is normally a waste to use miles. One can count countless threads where it has been pointed out that either they are an extremely bad value, or that after fees etc (which the OP pooh poohs) that you an be paying the same or MORE when using miles.

Quite frankly, those of us that fly Long Haul interontinental segments on a weekly basis generally do not care about the food and drink (other than that it is at least okay), what we generally care about is the seat and space, and quite frankly yes many of us will pay a grand or two AND miles to upgrade, because our health and sanity depend on it.

This thread reminds me about a recent DL PMU thread: The flier who spends the entire year flying the lowest possible domestic fares year in and out is probably not going to ever shell out $6k for a ticket, let alone $2k plus a certificate or PMU. however the FF that flies across the ocean monthly will not thin twice. It all is in the eye of the beholder, but OP you have to consider that some here earn 200, 400, 600 or a million FF points a year, so 30 or 60k means comparatively little to many of us.

You picked a domestic F service route. No wonder you see little value in the reward there; there is little added value in that upgraded service.

<clipped for brevity>

That being said, generally the highest dollar value is achieved by redeeming for long-haul premium cabin rewards. That may not be what any particular individual values most, but it is likely the best dollar value proposition for the miles.

<clipped for brevity>.

I agree with sbm12 regarding the best use of miles is for premium long-haul. I have never used miles for an upgrade. I would rather save my miles to be able to go for the next premium long-haul trip. However I see the valid points many others are making. Ability to sleep sitting up may be deciding factor. One's immediate itinerary when landing may be the deciding factor. My neighbor arrived in Paris groggy and shortly thereafter was ripped off at the train terminal. Maybe if she flew up front, this would not have happened. One's body size may be the deciding factor. Whether traveling by self or with SO's may be the deciding factor. I also think to each their own, regardless of cpm arguments.

-outoftown

The premise of this entire thread is wrong...

It all is in the eye of the beholder, but OP you have to consider that some here earn 200, 400, 600 or a million FF points a year, so 30 or 60k means comparatively little to many of us.

hfly, the premise of your entire post is wrong. For those of you who have been paying attention, I'm sorry I have to re-state this once more: The actual premise of my original post was simply to say what you yourself hfly said in the last line of your own post - savvy use of miles is determined by the one using the miles and not by anyone else, or, to blatantly plagiarize a previous poster in this thread, savvy traveling is in the eye of the traveler. (Of course there are those cases where some aren't really familiar with how the miles game is played and really do waste miles but we're talking here about those of us who at least have a basic understanding of the relative worth of miles.)
Sorry if I sounded like I was breaking my own rule by accusing others of being un-savvy by using miles for upgrades, which would be just as ignorant as saying that using miles for coach fares is un-savvy. It's just that, for me, In my present physical health and financial condition, using miles for upgrades would be extremely un-savvy FOR ME. This thread has simply evolved into a discussion on that theme, that is, discussing what each of us considers worth our miles. And I have to say, after reading these posts, my definition of savvy mile-use is definitely maturing. I hadn't considered some of the points made. Thanks all for the enlightenment.
So anyway, all you lucky people with zillions of FF miles to toss around carelessly, I envy you for not having to give a rip whether you're being savvy or not with them. I aspire to be just like you! But until then, don't pity me as you watch me pass through your comfy first class on my way to the back of the bus with my fellow proud cattle. Just give me a thumbs up or at least a nice smile (especially if you're a cute, single female). :D

interesting thread. I've been in the camp of the accused but didn't come right out (IIRC) and say savvy travelers don't use miles for Y award tickets.

I will say that I don't do this very often (have once or twice), preferring to use miles for upgrades to J on long haul international flights. Doesn't mean I'm more or less savvy but in private conversations I've been known to brag a little about getting higher value per mile while enjoying something I normally wouldn't have paid cash for.

Our child has tagged along on another family's trips when I wouldn't have wanted to see money spent this way (mine or theirs). I went along with the argument that the other dad flew a lot and it was his business if he wanted to cash in a bunch of miles so his kiddos could bring friends along. We then did likewise on a trip to Paris, trading in 240k for four tix. It wasn't a good exchange rate but using miles instead of cash made it less awkward to include someone from outside the family.

I can see where using miles earned on biz travel for Y domestic awards might be more valuable to someone, especially if they have no interest in leaving the continent or just don't mind flying coach when they do.

I'll also feel differently once I'm less concerned about requalifying each year, as lifetime PLT seems achievable for me (@2MM).

What works for you, other presumably savvy travelers, doesn't necessarily work for me and vv. I still think my AA miles are best spent on J upgrades or (long shot) getting out of Y en route to Australia (J/F award). I would actually buy miles through AA to get the latter if I was a few thousand short.

Guess the point of all this is I'm guilty of thinking along the lines of the OP's complaint, and will try not to disparage others who for reasons of their own choose to use their miles differently.

Thanks OP for bringing this up.

Nowhere, not on the BA forum or anywhere else does anyone deride using miles for Y tickets on LONG HAUL INTERCONTINENTAL TRAVEL.
Oh really? (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/10226146-post15.html)

If I'm going to fly in Y -and- I am not earning miles, I might as well book through PL at some deep discount fare. Otherwise I'm spending 50k miles to save just a few hundred bucks, perhaps less, and that's a rather low valuation of miles (mathematically speaking).
If you are only saving a couple hundred bucks then your Y itinerary isn't complicated enough. ;)

I have redeemed for two international Y rewards recently. The first was EWR-AMS-IST//IST-CDG-SOU//BRS-EWR. That ticket was $2200 to purchase and the reward routing I got was fully flexible as I am a CO Platinum meaning no change fees. I was able to tweak the flights and the schedule a few times and avoid change fees. That is certainly worth the points, IMO. I probably could've found it with seats up front on the long-hauls segments, but they weren't really that long (~6 hours each) and I'd rather save my points as I can take another trip to Europe with them. The second reward I booked was EWR-CDG-CPH//OSL-AMS-EWR. Not quite as high a value on that ticket, but I put the return segments in J because it is a nice treat every now and then and because Y wasn't available at standard rates. :D

Neither of those tickets are just a "few hundred bucks" in savings.


Quite frankly, those of us that fly Long Haul interontinental segments on a weekly basis generally do not care about the food and drink (other than that it is at least okay), what we generally care about is the seat and space, and quite frankly yes many of us will pay a grand or two AND miles to upgrade, because our health and sanity depend on it.This is certainly a relevant point. I do not fly long haul every week or even every month (though this year is starting to shape up that way every month ^), and most of my "long-haul" trips are TATL from NYC. Suffice it to say that my needs are much different than a weekly TPAC passenger.

Again, ultimately the definition of "value" will vary. One can easily say that it is just cash equivalent. Or it might be something else. It is very hard for any group of people to agree on a definition of something that is subjective. That's why many folks here focus on cash value, as it is easy to measure and reasonably consistent to define. That does not mean that it is the "right" way to value points, but it certainly is the simplest and steadiest.

"this common fallacy that using your FF miles for economy fares is not getting the best value out of them" is what you said, and was what I was querying. No one generally questions then for long haul travel, and you have made no distinction.

This thread illustrates how differently people view travel. Many things go into one's choice of what value to put on class of service.

I know a couple of people who have no issue whatsoever with flying longhaul Y. I asked one of them hypothetically, if money were no object at all, how much he would spend to upgrade to F from a middle seat in Y, between strangers, on a LAX-SYD nonstop. He said not a penny - we all arrive at the same time.

Another does DFW-LGW several times a year. He gets a reasonable amount of miles, but does not qualify for any sort of free upgrade. Every third or fourth trip is very short notice, and it amazes me how often he ends up in a middle seat. I have asked him about using miles to upgrade, and he is aghast. Again, he is a very practical person, and the miles mean more to him for more trips than they would for upgrades. He just sits in his middle seat and goes about his business.

I'm not like that at all. If a long-haul upgrade were within my budget ($ or miles) - I would take it, with certain exceptions, like knowing the Y cabin were empty (often preferable to being in J or F, especially if the food/IFE/seats are not first rate), or being in a set of two seats (window/aisle) with my wife - tolerable, but still uncomfortable on really long hauls.

Basically, it would take an extraordinary set of circumstances for me to get on a 6+ hour full flight, in a Y middle seat, between strangers. If that ended up as my only option, in most cases I would not go. Domestically, I'd probably do it, but would not be a happy camper. For most domestic travel I'm fine with Y, although I would upgrade on transcons, etc. if the value proposition (buzzword alert!) were right.

As for the wisdom of using miles in certain situations, Y is fine, Y is great - unless you are using 25K or 50K miles for a flight on which a ticket would be $129 or something. That seems to be very questionable, unless of course it is the only option someone has at the time.

Take a look at some of the derision heaped on Y award travelers in the BA forum. "Too sensitive?" Please. After years of getting flak on this issue, I'm sick to death of the attitude of most posters, which does not in the least recognize the concept of "to each his own."

Well....

Whaddaya expect? It's BRITISH Air.

From the country that divides itself into "Lords" and "Commoners."



( :D )

i have to agree with the view that everybody values his/her miles differently and therefore considers a different redemption to be a 'good' value.

there is so much that goes into it: how many miles you have, how many you earn, how you earn them, how often you fly, how you cope with the discomfort in coach, where want to redeem, how often and when. you could go on forever.

i, personally, always redeem for coach awards to Europe. but i can understand how someone else would only want to redeem for business/first.

One factor denigrating the value of Y awards in many programs (many
US carriers are a notable exception) are the YQ surcharges they impose. For AC, I can fly to London for less than $1,000 if I time it right or almost 70K points (60K base, plus about an additional 10K of lost status miles) plus $491 in fees. So the true cash savings can be pretty small - about 1/2 to 2/3 cent per mile.

But the value of points depends on the person - how many points they earn, how many people they want to bring along (a semi-large family might well require elite status or paying double miles to force a seat), whether you are one of the lucky people able to sleep anywhere, anytime, etc... I would only redeem for Y where the surcharge doesn't exist or is small unless I was facing my points expiring unused. But someone with a program that doesn't impose YQ might well value a European trip every year with their spouse rather than only able to have enough points for a J seat and go every second year. I know some people who fly J but happily stay in the hotel equivalent of Y-- and people who believe the opposite is value for money.

Believe it or not, there have actually been numerous threads on the "best" use of miles on many of the forums here on FT! ;)

Some years back, I finally realized that the choice of how to redeem my miles was NOT a simple mathematical calculation based solely on the retail value of the flight(s) purchased with them. My use of miles has become situational -- e.g., if on a particular flight I can't get a reasonable cash price, I might look for an award ticket (even a Standard rather than a Saver) instead (for leisure travel). Nothing wrong with using miles for domestic economy class -- of course, I always do a comparison of the cash price vs. the cost in miles.

Or, sometimes I even redeem miles for (shock of shocks) merchandise -- even though I realize I'm getting a low cash value (approx. $ 0.006, i.e., 6/10 of one cent, per mile). For Christmas of 2007, I purchased a bunch of VERY NICE Christmas gifts using miles and was happy not to be spending the cash (:eek:) for them. (Some of the gifts were even for myself and I was very pleased with them.)

As for the (theoretical) highest value award tix, i.e., international premium cabin flights, I no longer redeem miles for those, as I don't earn status miles (EQMs) for them, and it would therefore be too difficult to maintain my United 1K status. Instead, I use my SWUs to upgrade economy class tix that I've purchased for cash.

Bottom line, I spend my miles however I please ;) . I like to burn miles every year, because I think hoarding them is generally a bad idea.

..........
Some years back, I finally realized that the choice of how to redeem my miles was NOT a simple mathematical calculation based solely on the retail value of the flight(s) purchased with them.


and that really is the bottom line...
a few years ago, my son went to work in New Orleans during the Katarina mess, working for a private contractor who was working with fema. For a few weeks, he had to live in a tent in cold weather, deal with politics of power, this was his first time away in such situation, and was feeling very down. I decided to go visit him and cheer him up a little, flts to NO were out of sight, only thing was to do a anytime award for 50k points, I did not hesitate. No one would call it a good use of points, one could call me nuts for doing that but my son needed some comfort and there is no price anyone can put on that. To me it was a very good use of points.

Regarding the thought that if you are not poing to pay for first call travel, then computing the value of such award is meaningless. That is purely mathematical. I dont't want to or can not pay for first class but that does not mean I don't want to travel in first class. My once a year longhaul vacation trips are in first class and there is no value or price I can put on it because to me they are priceless!

I can see in the not too distant future when I will consider that extra reclining room of first class having much more "value" and indeed worth the extra cash but fortunately, at the moment, the back of the plane works fine for me. So value not only differs from person to person, as has been stated by most everyone, but it will change over time for the individual too.
I am an example of this time shift. When I joined FT several years ago, I would never have redeemed for premium cabin travel for myself, as it was not worth it. Now I will, due to a combination of greater disposable income, an acquired taste/appreciation for premium cabins, and physically being less fit/finding it harder to sleep in economy.

At that point in time, the $ value to myself of the upgrade was less than the $ value to myself of the additional miles required.

Now, the $ value to myself of international upgrades has increased to a level over the the $ value of the miles difference to myself.




It is pointless to try to put a universal $ value on an upgrade or the miles one holds.

(I am including the choice of redeeming for a business class ticket over economy in my loose use of the term upgrade here)

However, most everyone will benefit from using the same formula to make their choice of when to upgrade.



The formula:

1) Calculate what your miles are truly worth to you.

Miles have value to everyone, primarily based on opportunity cost. If you do X with your miles, you will not be able to do Y. No one has an infinite supply of miles and anyone who says they ascribe no value to them because they earn more than they use needs to seriously consider the value of donating these miles to a charity they respect/friends/family. For some, donating to a charity would be your opportunity cost, for others giving to friends/relatives who need ticket. For many it is what else you could do with the miles for yourself/family.


2) Calculate what an upgrade is worth to you.

THIS IS ALMOST NEVER THE $ FIGURE THE AIRLINE WOULD CHARGE.

IT IS THE MAXIMUM $ FIGURE YOU WOULD ACTUALLY PAY FOR THE UPGRADE IF IT WERE AVAILABLE FOR THIS PRICE.

For a few, this would be a similar amount to what the airline charges.

For many, it will be a little less, for many others it will be not much of an increase over the cost of coach/economy.


3) Compare the value of miles required to you with the value of an upgrade to you.



First, to qualify as a "savvy" traveler, one had better not be wasting any miles upgrading on most US or other airlines with inferior J & F products.
Stated as a universal, NO.

There are MANY reasons (cost/work policy/schedule/route network/upgrade availability/upgrade cost/etc) why a savvy traveler would regularly fly and upgrade on an airline with a lesser premium cabin.

IF the value of the upgrade to a particular traveller "on most US or other airlines with inferior J & F products" is greater than the value of the additional miles required for upgrade to that particular traveler, the traveller would be foolish not to upgrade!
Second, for airlines with a strong J product with flat or lie-flat seats, Y-to-J upgrades are much "savvier" than J-to-F upgrades.
Again, stated as a universal, NO.

Why should a traveller who truly values (what he would pay) an F seat $2000 over an excellent J seat not pay miles this traveller correctly values at $1000 for this upgrade?

Product does not matter; individual value of that upgrade versus individual value of the miles does.
For me, the FF miles allow me to travel where and how I wouldn't otherwise. For example, I wouldn't fly in coach for 13 or 14 hour to Australia. I can handle it in business or first, but wouldn't pay the huge price. So the FF miles allow me to go places that I wouldn't go otherwise.
Your FF accounts are assets like bank accounts and other financial investments. When you use those FF miles to go to Australia, you are loosing the ability to redeem them on other tickets you paid cash for instead of the cash, the ability to donate them to a charity instead of a cash donation, the ability to give them to friends family instead of the present you spent cash on, etc.
For you, the opportunity costs may be such that miles are worth 1 cent each to you, in which case using 120K of them for business class would the equivalent of paying $1200 for business class. If you would jump at the opportunity to spend $1200 for business class and have calculated the value of the miles to you to be $1200, you should jump at the chance to use $1200 worth of miles for that trip.


That being said, generally the highest dollar value is achieved by redeeming for long-haul premium cabin rewards.
YES! ^
That may not be what any particular individual values most, but it is likely the best dollar value proposition for the miles.
I am suggesting the only relevant dollar value proposition uses $ figures that take the individuals values into account.
They deride using them for US Domestic flights (other than last minute emergency fares and the like when paid fares can be extortionate) or inter-European travel, where quite frankly it is normally a waste to use miles.
It should be noted that many savvy redeemers get excellent value from redeeming miles domestically. Especially with an airline like AA that allows both a stopover and an open jaw on a 25K domestic redemption without restricting the stopover city choice and not charging YQ on redemptions.

The average domestic redemption, however, doesn't represent a high $ value per mile redeemed. On the other hand, for an individual who does not value international travel and does not value giving miles to those who do, a domestic coach redemption could be the most savvy use for their miles.
(Of course there are those cases where some aren't really familiar with how the miles game is played and really do waste miles but we're talking here about those of us who at least have a basic understanding of the relative worth of miles.).
This would be the majority of the non Flyertalk type, as well as many here.

Most people do not use their miles in the way that would maximize their value for them (due to lack of a complete understanding of their options and the opportunity costs involved).
One can easily say that it is just cash equivalent. Or it might be something else. It is very hard for any group of people to agree on a definition of something that is subjective. That's why many folks here focus on cash value, as it is easy to measure and reasonably consistent to define. That does not mean that it is the "right" way to value points, but it certainly is the simplest and steadiest.

I am suggesting there is a right (most rational) way to value points and miles.

The computation does involve cash values, however these cash values are individually determined, not based on an irrelevant $ amount charged by an airline (that would never be paid by the individual in question).

Just a couple points:

1. The reason that the BA forum specifically derides people who use miles for a Y redemption is because of the astronomical fees and taxes. When these add up to almost $500 sometimes, it's a joke to use miles. This point is missing from the OP's original post. Using miles no longer means a "free" ticket for most programs. But some programs are indeed better than others. If you truly can get a $1000 Y ticket for only $40, that's an AMAZING use of miles. However, the reality for many is very different.

2. The only time you actually "save" money by using miles is when you otherwise would have paid for the ticket. When I used miles to fly NYC-DTW for a wedding that I had to go to, I actually saved the $300 I would have had to pay for a revenue ticket. A month later when I flew to HKG on a whim using miles first class on Cathay Pacific, I did not "save" the $25,000 ticket price, because I never would have paid that to begin with.

3. Use of miles depends on how cash poor/rich and how miles poor/rich you are at the time of booking. I may choose to use miles for a cheapo ticket one month because I've overspent my discretionary income that month, but the next month purchase the same ticket for cash.

4. STATUS MILES. Honestly, when I travel on award tickets, a part of my heart breaks knowing that I won't be earning any miles for those flights. Using miles to upgrade, however, you still earn miles while traveling in style.

5. Life is short and it's not always about making the best fiscal decisions. Do I NEED to fly in biz or first? No. Actually, scratch that. I do. And the only way I can consistently do it without going bankrupt is to use miles for upgrades and premium cabin redemptions.

So, what's the moral of the story? If you're using miles for Y redemptions on airlines like BA let me buy you the Y ticket and give me the miles.

Just a couple points:

1. The reason that the BA forum specifically derides people who use miles for a Y redemption is because of the astronomical fees and taxes. When these add up to almost $500 sometimes, it's a joke to use miles. This point is missing from the OP's original post. Using miles no longer means a "free" ticket for most programs. But some programs are indeed better than others. If you truly can get a $1000 Y ticket for only $40, that's an AMAZING use of miles. However, the reality for many is very different.

EXCELLENT POINTS!

The Big European 3, (LH, AF, and BA) are among the worst airlines when if comes to free tickets, as they tack very large fuel surcharged onto all redemption tickets. AA, UA, and other US airlines are among the best for free tickets as they generally only charge government mandated taxes when redeeming.

So, what's the moral of the story? If you're using miles for Y redemptions on airlines like BA let me buy you the Y ticket and give me the miles.

While I understand your point, do you want to take me up on your offer?

I usually redeem my BA miles for one-way COACH tickets between the USA and Camerooon, Africa.

Sample routing:
NSI-SN-BRU-BA-LHR-BA-ORD

Lowest cost to buy ticket with $ (on any European carrier) = ~$1900 USD (lowest season)

BA miles cost per ticket: 40,000 BA miles + ~$300 USD fees


You take my BA miles and buy me tickets. Deal?

Re: OP. I'm a lifetime member of the "free travel" side of the debate, but I don't downplay the arguments made by the upgraders. If you do a lot of biz travel, rack up a lot of miles and have limited vacation time per year, taking the S.O. to Europe on an upgrade for the vacation would make sense. I've nearly always been on my own dime and with tighter funds than time, so using miles on upgrades has always seemed too rich.

I think the optimal thing on the free travel side is to find and go to spots on the alliance network that are expensive to reach on paid fares. My mileage-value benchmark for comparison is about 1.5 cents. Favorite trips on awards have included most of Continental's spots in Micronesia and about half of Air New Zealand's in the South Pacific. Alaska at 25K from ATL also seems like good value, and have used mileage sales in the past for HKG for 25K RT, BKK for 40K and DUS for 20K (if only they'd bring back any of those!)

With my "out-of-the-way-places" strategy it's important to have an appreciation for doing that sort of thing, which I realize not everyone has. Though it can be quite a contrast going between Hawaii, where some places seem overrun with people, to Pohnpei, where getting up a group for a boat tour is sometimes a challenge when the total tourist numbers wouldn't fit into a single 737.

As a rule of thumb, if you run into missionaries you're probably also off the beaten track.

If I am traveling for leisure and have no plans maintaining (or attaining) status for the year, then I would be more inclined to side with the OP.

However, if my goal is to attain/maintain status, then I will pay economy fare (and if I can upgrade using points or an upgrade certificate, then great).

For me it's not so much a cost of miles spent but an issue of how comfortable/amount of sleep I am going to be on x flight. I'm 6'2" and anything over 7 hours continuous in Y is :(.
My strategy is to use miles to upgrade on long haul only. I rather be fresh on arrival as it takes a couple days to catch up now.
So I work on the 7 hour rule. If it's under I purchase the ticket in Y and don't spend miles upgrading. Over 7 hour, buy Y & upgrade or buy C.

Oh really? (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/10226146-post15.html)

You think that was derision. Man oh man you colonials are thin skinned

You think that was derision.
No, I think that was a negation of the point about "no one is saying anything bad about using miles for long-haul Y."

No, and the OP has never been hit for $500 in taxes and fees on a ticket that otherwise would cost him $400.

the OP has never been hit for $500 in taxes and fees on a ticket that otherwise would cost him $400.
:confused: Are you implying that an award ticket would actually cost you more than paying for the same ticket with cash? If you are flying BA, for example, you will pay the same taxes and fees whether you get the flight on miles or for cash. There are no savings when you pay cash for the ticket.

J
4. STATUS MILES. Honestly, when I travel on award tickets, a part of my heart breaks knowing that I won't be earning any miles for those flights. Using miles to upgrade, however, you still earn miles while traveling in style.

5. Life is short and it's not always about making the best fiscal decisions. Do I NEED to fly in biz or first? No. Actually, scratch that. I do. And the only way I can consistently do it without going bankrupt is to use miles for upgrades and premium cabin redemptions.


I laughed so hard when I read this as I couldn't possibly agree more. And the benefits of top tier status are a big value to consider when choosing to pay Y all the time (for the EQM) and just use points for upgrades.

Bringing the kids along is another excellent use of points.

travelmad, I invite you to read deeper on the BA board and find countless examples of people finding all-in fare specials for less than the fees and surcharges which one pays for award tickets. For that matter one can find recent examples on the Delta board of similar phoenomena (or within $50).

countless examples of people finding all-in fare specials for less than the fees and surcharges which one pays for award tickets
Can you point to a few of these examples? I am asking in all seriousness. I am trying to imagine how this would be possible for the routes and purposes that I am using award tickets for (a few of my BA award trips in the last couple of years: PHL-SOF/BUC-PHL, PHL-ATH-MAD-PHL, PHL-INV-PHL). My goal is not just to get to Europe, but to get to a specific destination for a specific date, and to get there and back quickly. I am not able to choose my vacations based on what fare sales are available. I imagine most people are in the same boat.

Can you point to a few of these examples? I am asking in all seriousness. I am trying to imagine how this would be possible .....

The reason this can happen is BA does not have one single universal fuel surcharge applied 100% of the time on a given route. Fare sales sometimes come with lower than usual fuel surcharges, resulting in the fuel surcharges applied to the award ticket making the award ticket more expensive than a paid ticket.

This should be illegal, IMO.

I would go even further and make fuel surcharges existing more than 3 months after a fuel price hike illegal.

Yawn. You did get the part when in my first post I said that the OP's premise was WRONG because people thgought using them for Y on DOMESTICS or inter-Europe was a stupid deal, right? (His premise being that we all think that ALL Y redemptions are bad). Anyway, I have no idea what INV pricing is like, nor do I care to look into it, however BA has had three multiweek fare sales in as many months so I do not think they would be that hard to come by.

Anyway, I have no idea what INV pricing is like, nor do I care to look into it, however BA has had three multiweek fare sales in as many months so I do not think they would be that hard to come by.
You are of course ignoring the central point of my last post, which is that for myself and many others, travel planning is NOT driven by what temporary fare sales are available at any given time. Sure, I could find a fare sale to INV at some random point during the year. But does that short-term sale correspond with the dates that I need to travel? Almost always, the answer is no. Simply saying that there have been fares of less than X for a given route at some moment in history does not make your point.

Please right now go to ba.com and see what prices you can get on a variety of short and mid haul flights 21 days in the future in Economy class, then price out the fees, etc for doing a redemption. Then report back please.

Please right now go to ba.com and see what prices you can get on a variety of short and mid haul flights 21 days in the future in Economy class, then price out the fees, etc for doing a redemption. Then report back please.
As I have never needed to do a short/mid-haul flight on BA without a TATL attached, this doesn't have any relevance to me. Also, since I don't have any vacation plans to make right now, when fare sales are at their most extreme, the fact that there happen to be fare sales right now is also completely irrelevant. I refer you back to my previous post and ask you to actually think about what I wrote.

For the Nth time, the answer to the original question is "to each his own." There is no single approach that makes the most sense for every traveler.

And what you repeatedly do not get is that the OP's original premise was:

"I would just like to address this common fallacy that using your FF miles for economy fares is not getting the best value out of them"

and then he went on to talk about TATL examples (much like yourself).

My premise has been that the argument is flawed because it has never been a common fallacy around FT, perhaps in the OP's mind, or yours, however the common thought on FT (which is where we are and which is perhaps the greatest repository of FF knowledge on the planet) has in fact been that they are a poor value for domestic or "short haul" flying vs. long haul flying unless there is a compelling reason to use them for such (last minute business/emergency/death/whatever).

No relevence to you? Doesn't really matter as in fact you keep skewing the argument towards something which I both never meant nor ever intended, I also doubt it would not apply to Luanda either, but no one was talking of such.

The fact remains that unless one has a very compelling reason to do so, one will find that using miles for short or mid haul travel is generally a poor proposition.

Don't forget the value of paying for miles that count toward elite status. Because of that, I prefer to use my miles for upgrading.

It also depends on WHERE you choose to burn your RDMs. For example, flying US domestic, there are lots of choices, all within a general level of service (no real LCCs flying, except for WN, which is kind of one). If I need to fly to New York for a bowl of ramen and a pastrami sandwich, I have several choices to pay for a flight. Generally it is unlikely that I will burn 25/50K RDMs for a flight when I can purchase a flight and accrue EQM or points on whatever airline I wind up on.

However, when I'm in Singapore, eating chili crab and roti prata, flying inter-Asia can get ridiculous (SQ)or hella cheap (AK, 3K, etc). I'm not going to pay for a flight to HKG (where I can have the best wontonmein and dim sum) that will cost the same price as my SFO-SIN flight, purchased Economy but usually SWUd. Then again, if I fly the LCCs, no status means no lounge and luggage restrictions. But I can burn 30K RDMs for C (or 20K for Y) on SQ. To me that's leveraging value! And gets me into the SKL! :D

As the Jedi say, "it depends on your point of view"

my mistake...

And what you repeatedly do not get is that the OP's original premise was:

"I would just like to address this common fallacy that using your FF miles for economy fares is not getting the best value out of them"

and then he went on to talk about TATL examples (much like yourself).

My premise has been that the argument is flawed because it has never been a common fallacy around FT, perhaps in the OP's mind, or yours, however the common thought on FT (which is where we are and which is perhaps the greatest repository of FF knowledge on the planet) has in fact been that they are a poor value for domestic or "short haul" flying vs. long haul flying unless there is a compelling reason to use them for such (last minute business/emergency/death/whatever).



hfly, you are making this thread more entertaining than I would have guessed. But seriously, if there is anyone who is repeatedly not getting what my original premise was, and what generally everyone else seems to have grasped rather easily, it's YOU. First your premise that the commonly held fallacy I speak of is referring specifically to the FT boards is wrong to begin with. Actually I was referring specifically to a travel article in some newspaper or other. But regardless, and what's really funny about your last post, is you say the belief that using miles for economy fares is not getting the best value out of them is NOT a common fallacy on these boards and then immediately proceed to say that it is a common thought here, albeit differentiating between long and short-haul flights. But you even have disclaimers for the short haul flights so evidently, in some cases, your common FT thought (which isn't common?:confused:) can often be dead wrong.
Thus, to state my premise as simply as possible, you can state all the "common thought", general rules and mathamatical formulas regarding wise-use of miles you want, but the bottom line, as has been stated by nearly everyone here, is, value and savvy traveling is determined by yourself.
Just agree with the overall concept and we'll leave it at that.
Now don't make me come back here.;)

But for the general public that reads such general articles (rather than the FT audience which you were adressing and until now 61 posts and several days into the thread),that you do not cite, redeeming any miles for any ticket, most often Y tickets IS considered a good deal, as the vast majority of those redeemed by US fliers (for example) are for domestic tickets, so again, whatever "common fallacy" you refer to is moot.

As for common FT knowledge, you have not caught me out with any caveats, an emergency is an emergency and even a blind squirrel knows that a same day flight on a packed plane will be expensive even for the shortest of short haul domestic flights and in those cases using miles is a prudent investment.

Again, your preamble and general statement are based on a fallacy which it seems that only you have created. You do know that this place has millions of posts, many of which deal with exactly what the best deals and use of FF miles are, don't you?

Again, your preamble and general statement are based on a fallacy which it seems that only you have created.

Talk about your blind squirrels. Again, you completely misunderstand... oh forget it. I give up. And I'm not giving up because you have entirely missed the point of this whole thread and obviously can't get past some personal slight you seem to have taken, but I'm giving up because I now see that you are right and this whole issue is actually only in my own mind. I have no idea where I got the idea that there are people who believe you are a more savvy traveler if you use miles for upgrades as opposed to economy fares or, for that matter, why there are so many posts discussing this fallacy that's only in my own mind, but what can you do? Just be patient with these confused flyers I guess. Thanks for setting me straight.;)
And, again, thanks to all the posts that have and are helping me expand my horizons about things to consider when trying to get the most value out of a mile and thereby being, dare I say, a more savvy traveler. (that was a not-so-subtle hint as to the real theme of this thread for anyone who needs a not-so-subtle hint.)(but I gave up so never mind.)

So now its about upgrades? You have more "edits" trying to be clever in your last five posts than many have in their last 5,000. See the criticism for what it is, stop hopping around and get on with it already

Keep spending your miles on Y tickets, and thank you for doing so. It means more award space for those of us who choose to redeem our miles for C/F tickets :)

BTW I'm a very proud redeemer of 120,000 UA miles for a Star Alliance First Class award ticket between SAN and HEL last summer. It was worth every single mile and since I value my miles at 1 cent per mile, it works out to 1200$ for a ticket that would probably have cost about 20,000$. :) Different strokes for different folks. ^

Look, while I agree with the OP's point that value is in the eye of the beholder, there are some very common issues faced by many "non savvy" travelers which may cause them not to get the most value from their FF accounts by redeeming Y tickets. Hence, there is a very strong case to be made that associates "savvy" travelers with those who look carefully at all options, including upgrades, C and F redemptions. Case in point: I recently redeemed MP miles for two J tickets to Istanbul from FLL for 160K (shortly before the redemption levels went up by 30%). Shortly thereafter, I went to dinner with some friends who mentioned that they had also redeemed their MP miles for 2 tickets to Rome in Y. However, their cost was 200K because they redeemed the miles via UAL's website, and the lower saver award category did not seem to be available on UAL metal and partner inventory cannot be accessed or booked that way. IMHO, this is a classic case of the non "savvy" traveler not being aware of all their options. They achieved their ultimate goal, which is to get to Rome and back. But, if they had known how to work the system better, they probably could have done what I did. They have never flown anything other than Y, but if they knew that the J option existed (albeit with a lot of work using a star alliance FF award inventory tool and then dealing with UAL on the phone), I am sure they would have strongly considered it (based on the bulging of their eyes when we compared notes). Who knows, perhaps if they found that via my approach Y to Europe would have been available for 100K for two, they may have chosen to save the miles. That decision to save the miles is not a bad one, which is to the OP's point. However, not being aware of ALL options before choosing it can be viewed as uninformed.

So now its about upgrades?

:confused:
Uhhh, yes. It always has been, relative to "savvy traveling". Are you really discussing this thread or just jerking my chain? Ahhh, that's it. You really had me going there. Very clever.
Or maybe you've just been confused and have been referring to another thread all along? That could explain a lot too.
Either way I forgive you. And for my part, I apologize for trying to be clever. I was hoping to actually be clever but I guess I'll have to try a little harder.
And I agree wholeheartedly, let's move on, and hopefully lighten up a bit. Afterall, we're all just discussing the "joy" and "fun" of travel here, right? :)

Why don't you go edit your posts some more.

BTW I'm a very proud redeemer of 120,000 UA miles for a Star Alliance First Class award ticket between SAN and HEL last summer. It was worth every single mile and since I value my miles at 1 cent per mile, it works out to 1200$ for a ticket that would probably have cost about 20,000$. :) Different strokes for different folks. ^

A previous poster made an observation on this exact situation. For many travelers, savvy traveling is all about the actual cash you save and not about any ultra-inflated "value" you get out of your miles. There's no way many (most?) of us would actually spend $20,000 on such a fare as mentioned above so we aren't actually "saving" that much. Sure, in the above example, your miles work out to a great value but that's not necessarily the ultimate goal with miles for many of us here. It's to save as much out-of-pocket cash as possible. For us, we can only save what we would have conceivably actually paid for a fare.
So again, we have this scenario of savvy traveler #1 using 60,000 miles to get on the same plane to the same place as savvy traveler #2 who used 120,000 miles. ST #1 spends $100 in cash while ST #2 spends $1,200 and uses up an extra 60,000 miles. (actually less than that considering the fare earns miles)
Working it out mathmatically one way, you can easily prove that savvy traveler #2 receives far more "value" from his miles compared to ST #1. But, working it out mathmatically another way, you can just as easily prove that ST #1 came away with $1,100 in his pocket and saved thousands of miles compared to traveler #2.
Both can be very "savvy" at the same time because both have different goals and value. A comfortable upgrade is worth $1,200 and extra miles for many travelers, while for others it's not, regardless if the fare would have cost $20,000 or a $100,000. That has no bearing on our decision.
And thus begins the discussion of what we consider to be of "value"...

Disregard...
(off subject, does anyone know how to completely delete a post? The closest I seem to be able to do is to edit it down to five letters.)