Air France Frequence Plus - AF A380

What is the last position - when is AF supposed to receive their first A380 frame?

October 2009.

In french:
http://www.lesechos.fr/info/transport/300310908.htm

I knows AF will introduces of A380 from CDG-YUL/JFK/NRT/SIN/MIA/LAX. I'm sure for which specific routes to put on A380 inauguration in 2009. I think it will have an real opportunity for A380 will be there in late-2009.

I know that AF has mentioned YUL/NRT/SIN etc. but would AF consider making DXB an A380 destination.?

I know that AF has mentioned YUL/NRT/SIN etc. but would AF consider making DXB an A380 destination.?

there is no business reason to add DXB ...

What is the configuration like - Premire, Affaires, Tempo, Alize?

What is the configuration like - Premire, Affaires, Tempo, Alize?

I haven't figured out for which seat configuration on operated A380. I will let you know soon as possible when I hear anything new information from AF.

What is the configuration like - Premire, Affaires, Tempo, Alize?

I hear there will be a slightly improved P and J cabin with a very basic Alize cabin. Tempo will be of the super high density type found on the 77W, thus rendering any flight in Y on the 380 a sort of pay-for-purgatory experience.

Originally AF had announced 9/80/449 in P/J/Y for a total of 538 seats (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=657536&highlight=538&page=2), but that was before they subsenquently announced the introduction of a Y+ product (better that Alize though, with shell-type seats). So, if that product makes it to the 380, yes indeed one can expect the Y cabin to be super-packed.

In any case, as a pax bound to Y (my employer will never pay for Y+), I'm not looking forward to flying in what is essentially a stack of two 777-200s piled on top of each other. Especially if the density in coach approaches that of the dreaded 3-4-3 config found on 77Ws.

I saw an A380 (in Airbus colors) at CDG yesterday. Seems they are still (already?) preparing for the big bird? ;)

October 2009.

In french:
http://www.lesechos.fr/info/transport/300310908.htm

Originally AF had announced 9/80/449 in P/J/Y for a total of 538 seats (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=657536&highlight=538&page=2), but that was before they subsenquently announced the introduction of a Y+ product (better that Alize though, with shell-type seats). So, if that product makes it to the 380, yes indeed one can expect the Y cabin to be super-packed.

In any case, as a pax bound to Y (my employer will never pay for Y+), I'm not looking forward to flying in what is essentially a stack of two 777-200s piled on top of each other. Especially if the density in coach approaches that of the dreaded 3-4-3 config found on 77Ws.

Main deck Y is likely to be 3-5-3. Grrrr.

Ouch! 12 hours in a middle seat economy seat on an AF 380? Second only to flying Ryanair longhaul....

Ouch! 12 hours in a middle seat economy seat on an AF 380? Second only to flying Ryanair longhaul....

Ryanair does not fly longhaul. And when it does, the beds shall come with services for which there is no word in German (There probably is in French... minette?)

But Corsair flies the biggest plane in the world. Long-haul. 587 seats, not even single class (there are 29 premium seat in front of upper deck).

AF, the launch customer of 777-300ER, does not have the largest number of seats on 777-300. I think ANA has 524 seats on their 777-300 non-ER, while AF has just 472. But in coach, both Corsair 747 and AF 777 have 10 seats abreast, and 777 is 25 cm narrower. What is your preferred way to spend 12 hours in coach - AF 777 or Corsair 747?

I am dreading my upcoming 77W flight.

And a month's worth of dieting to make sure I can squeeze in the seat !

Main deck Y is likely to be 3-5-3. Grrrr.

Unless you have some specific reason to know so, I would think this was highly unlikely. So far, all operators use 3x4x3 in economy lower deck and I would think it improbable AF will try and fit an 11th sear here.

Main deck Y is likely to be 3-5-3. Grrrr.

Unless you have some specific reason to know so, I would think this was highly unlikely. So far, all operators use 3x4x3 in economy lower deck and I would think it improbable AF will try and fit an 11th sear here.

I hope you are right !

But who, 2 years ago, would have thought AF would change its 77W from 3-3-3 to 3-4-3, eventhough most operators use the 3-3-3 config.

With this move AF selected to be a low quality airline in Y (but not a low cost airline !), will this be limited to 777W or spreaded across the fleet ?
This is the question.

AF A 380 on COI routes with 880 Y seats??? :D

I knows AF will introduces of A380 from CDG-LAX.

That would be great! Already looking forward to it!

I hope you are right !

But who, 2 years ago, would have thought AF would change its 77W from 3-3-3 to 3-4-3, eventhough most operators use the 3-3-3 config.

With this move AF selected to be a low quality airline in Y (but not a low cost airline !), will this be limited to 777W or spreaded across the fleet ?
This is the question.

You're absolutely right - I don't think anything is guaranteed in the long term, but it is worth noting that AF switched from 3x3x3 to 3x4x3 after quite a few other airlines did the same, and one of the pioneering villains in that story - Emirates - does operate 3x4x3 on their A380 (and still the same on their
77W), hence my reinforced suspicion that AF won't want to be the first ones to appear out of line on the new star bird. Cynically, I would suspect that in the current market conditions, the extra 100 odd seats created would probably remain empty! ;)

You're absolutely right - I don't think anything is guaranteed in the long term, but it is worth noting that AF switched from 3x3x3 to 3x4x3 after quite a few other airlines did the same, and one of the pioneering villains in that story - Emirates - does operate 3x4x3 on their A380 (and still the same on their
77W), hence my reinforced suspicion that AF won't want to be the first ones to appear out of line on the new star bird. Cynically, I would suspect that in the current market conditions, the extra 100 odd seats created would probably remain empty! ;)

No other EU or US carrier (save KL of course) operates 3-4-3 on the 777 or 77W. No Asian carrier operates 3-4-3. BA tried it on their Carribbean routes but got such a negative response they pulled it. As I understand it the 380 supports the 3-5-3 configuration. It is a wide plane. AF are totally uninterested in questions of passenger comfort. It is ALL about increasing the tiny margins in Y, and the only way to do that is to cram as many people in as possible and then spend as little money on them as possible. That you may lose a part of your customer base does not matter because there will always be fresh once-off passengers in secondary EU markets who buy according to one criterion - price. So, AF becomes a kind of long haul Ryanair, albeit with window shades (for the moment at least!)

No other EU or US carrier (save KL of course) operates 3-4-3 on the 777 or 77W. No Asian carrier operates 3-4-3.

I wish you were right, but Asian carriers operating it include Emirates, and China Southern even uses the 10 seats across on their 777-200s which AF and KL don't do (the plane is significantly narrower). I'm also unsure what we could use for the comparison with other European and American airlines, simply because almost none operate the 777-300's (of course it is only on the 300's that AF and KL use the 10 seats abreast, they only have 9 on the 200's). The aircraft is not operated by any major European except AF and KL (LH, BA, AZ, SK, SR, OS, etc don't use it) in Europe or by any of the major US airlines (not used by AA, CO, DL, NW, UA, or US either). In fact, here again, if I remember correctly, OS uses 10 seats abreast on their narrower 777-200s while AF and KL only do 9.

Don't mistake what I am saying for some support for the AF-KL's configuration: as I have repeatedly said in other posts, I think the 3x4x3 on 777-300s is scandalous and I hate it. I'm just saying that it is not unique and that the comparison with other European and US airlines doesn't hold water because you can only compare the planes they actually fly, and on those (i.e. the 777-200s) AF and KL use the same 3x3x3 configuration as BA and most US airlines. So my guess would still be 9 abreast in the A380s. If they planned to use 10 abreast, the passenger numbers that they announced would also be significantly increased unless they plan on giving us a huge seat pitch (36" or so) which they won't.

I wish you were right, but Asian carriers operating it include Emirates, and China Southern even uses the 10 seats across on their 777-200s which AF and KL don't do (the plane is significantly narrower). I'm also unsure what we could use for the comparison with other European and American airlines, simply because almost none operate the 777-300's (of course it is only on the 300's that AF and KL use the 10 seats abreast, they only have 9 on the 200's). The aircraft is not operated by any major European except AF and KL (LH, BA, AZ, SK, SR, OS, etc don't use it) in Europe or by any of the major US airlines (not used by AA, CO, DL, NW, UA, or US either). In fact, here again, if I remember correctly, OS uses 10 seats abreast on their narrower 777-200s while AF and KL only do 9.

Don't mistake what I am saying for some support for the AF-KL's configuration: as I have repeatedly said in other posts, I think the 3x4x3 on 777-300s is scandalous and I hate it. I'm just saying that it is not unique and that the comparison with other European and US airlines doesn't hold water because you can only compare the planes they actually fly, and on those (i.e. the 777-200s) AF and KL use the same 3x3x3 configuration as BA and most US airlines. So my guess would still be 9 abreast in the A380s. If they planned to use 10 abreast, the passenger numbers that they announced would also be significantly increased unless they plan on giving us a huge seat pitch (36" or so) which they won't.

Both AF and KL are in the process of reconfiguring ALL their 772 aircraft to the 3-4-3 configuration. This should e completed within the next six months. CZ does indeed operate the same density. They are not, as yet, a major international carrier. SQ, CX, JL, NH and others operate exclusively 3-3-3 on both 772 and 773/77W. The US carriers operating the 772 and 77L are all 3-3-3. AF is leading the way (the only area in which they are innovative) in increasing density on ALL their aircraft.

I wish you were right, but Asian carriers operating it include Emirates, and China Southern even uses the 10 seats across on their 777-200s which AF and KL don't do (the plane is significantly narrower).
Where? Isn´t 777-300 just a stretch of 777-200?

But MD-11 IS significantly narrower than 777 (by 17 cm or so), and an EU flag carrier flies 10 across on MD-11.

So my guess would still be 9 abreast in the A380s.
Is that what the Alize class would be (like it is on 777)?

AF A 380 on COI routes with 880 Y seats???:D
Not quite so many...

The number Airbus evacuated from A380-800 back in March 2006 was 853. They did it in 79 s out of 90, so they might rerun the test for A380-800, with more seats. And since Airbus installed 538 seats on main deck out of 550 allowed for 5 door pairs, it is plain that any A380-900 (requested by AF as well as Virgin, Emirates and CX) and A380-1000 (requested by ILFC) needs extra exits and extra exit tests. Meanwhile, B747-400 could carry 624 seats, and Corsair has just 37 less. Corsair is not single-class! they have 29J558Y.

Corsair fills those 587, and makes profits with 747-400. Since A380-800 burns hardly more fuel on same routes, AF should not have trouble installing 800 seats on an A380-800 - say, 40J760Y - and filling at least the 587 that Corsair fills. Profitably.

Where? Isn´t 777-300 just a stretch of 777-200?

Yes it is.

I'm fed up of people using EK as a comparison with AF. The difference is EK compensate the 3-4-3 with 34" pitch. AF DO NOT!

Both AF and KL are in the process of reconfiguring ALL their 772 aircraft to the 3-4-3 configuration.

They do? I have yet to see/hear/read any announcement about it - and I'm quite sure it would show up somewhere on FT. If this is true, could anyone confirm such that I can add the 772 on AF/KL to my avoid-at-all-costs list? I've managed to avoid the 77W since they changed the layout, and I think it should be possible for the 772 as well... there's always another airline. (heck, I may just take all of my flying over to LH if they continue like that... :td::rolleyes:)

Yes it is.

I'm fed up of people using EK as a comparison with AF. The difference is EK compensate the 3-4-3 with 34" pitch. AF DO NOT!

This is an excellent point. On AF you have much much less space due 31-32" pitch.

They do? I have yet to see/hear/read any announcement about it - and I'm quite sure it would show up somewhere on FT. If this is true, could anyone confirm such that I can add the 772 on AF/KL to my avoid-at-all-costs list? I've managed to avoid the 77W since they changed the layout, and I think it should be possible for the 772 as well... there's always another airline. (heck, I may just take all of my flying over to LH if they continue like that... :td::rolleyes:)

As long as Biz stays 2-2-2, it doesn't matter too me much at all since I only fly internatonally in Biz.

They are staying like that, right?

As long as Biz stays 2-2-2, it doesn't matter too me much at all since I only fly internatonally in Biz.

They are staying like that, right?

Biz has never been 2-2-2 on AF/KL. It is currently, and always has been, 2-3-2.

Biz has never been 2-2-2 on AF/KL. It is currently, and always has been, 2-3-2.
On Airbii, Affaires is 2-2-2.

On Airbii, Affaires is 2-2-2.

Of course it is. But MikeyZBT was referring to the 772/77W.

What is the last position - when is AF supposed to receive their first A380 frame?

more in this thread :)
http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=798984&

On Airbii, Affaires is 2-2-2.
And in Y it is 2-4-2 and, sure, I am not complaining.
I already hated the 772 when they arrived for their 3-3-3 config (double excuse seats!), but the 3-4-3 is the step too much.

Both AF and KL are in the process of reconfiguring ALL their 772 aircraft to the 3-4-3 configuration. This should e completed within the next six months.
Is this really going on? Has anybody flown on a 772 with 3-4-3 ?
This will of course not be announced!
I remember when the first 10 abreast 773 was introduced on CDG-YUL: it was through a forum that we got the information (and confirmed when looking at the seat map you get when booking a seat on AF website)

Passing the 772 in 3-4-3 entails changing the seats in existing aircrafts (773 are delivered as such by Boeing) and, as we can remember from the NEV fiasco, this could take time! For the 772 my only hope is that, with the present crisis and the low fuel cost, AF will defer the modification to save money, especially as the extra lift would probably not be so useful.
They have just announced they delay exercising options on additional 773 and will keep their 744 longer (good news!).

CZ does indeed operate the same density. They are not, as yet, a major international carrier. SQ, CX, JL, NH and others operate exclusively 3-3-3 on both 772 and 773/77W. The US carriers operating the 772 and 77L are all 3-3-3. AF is leading the way (the only area in which they are innovative) in increasing density on ALL their aircraft.

In fact, here again, if I remember correctly, OS uses 10 seats abreast on their narrower 777-200s while AF and KL only do 9.

Yes it is.
I'm fed up of people using EK as a comparison with AF. The difference is EK compensate the 3-4-3 with 34" pitch. AF DO NOT!


A lot of interesting info.

To summarize:
- 772 are not narrower, so having 10 abreast in a 772 is equivalent to what you can endure in a 773.

- EK "compensates" the 10 abreast by a higher pitch. My only flight on an EK 777 was in Business, so I have no idea if the increase in pitch really "compensates" enough for the reduction of width. But at least this mitigates the reduction in personal space.

- OS and CZ also have 10 abreast in their 772: this is interesting information. I made some research and found the corresponding seat maps (they are not on seatguru):
http://www.aua.com/NR/rdonlyres/476A6ABF-6E42-4D55-BE2B-432E7288D5FA/0/SitzplanB777.pdf
http://www.airchina.com.au/en/managemytrip/seatmaps.html#b777

The pitch is not mentioned.

However if you compare the right part of the cabin you can see that between the two rear doors OS puts 13 rows, while AF and CZ put 14. There are no galleys or toilets in this part, so I assume the total length used is the same in the 3 cases (of course more detailed info would be required to be sure).
This seems to indicate that OS, like EK, gives some more pitch to "compensate", but not Air China, nor AF.

AF remains at the lowest quality level (but not the lower price !
:td:

- EK "compensates" the 10 abreast by a higher pitch. My only flight on an EK 777 was in Business, so I have no idea if the increase in pitch really "compensates" enough for the reduction of width. But at least this mitigates the reduction in personal space.

I have flown EK in coach with the 10-abreast seating and extra pitch. The increase in legroom is felt very significantly, as is the decrease in shoulder room -- overall, I'd say it's a wash and your preference will depend whether you are long/thin or short/wide, the seat next to you empty or filled with a Sumo wrestler etc.

- OS and CZ also have 10 abreast in their 772: this is interesting information. I made some research and found the corresponding seat maps (they are not on seatguru):
http://www.aua.com/NR/rdonlyres/476A6ABF-6E42-4D55-BE2B-432E7288D5FA/0/SitzplanB777.pdf
http://www.airchina.com.au/en/managemytrip/seatmaps.html#b777

The second link is for CA (Air China, *A), not for CZ (China Southern Airlines, Skyteam). Hélas, www.flychinasouthern.com doesn't have seat plans

The second link is for CA (Air China, *A), not for CZ (China Southern Airlines, Skyteam). Hélas, www.flychinasouthern.com doesn't have seat plans
Sorry for the mistake, I was so busy counting the rows I did not realize that 2+5+2 = 9 !

CZ (China Southern Airlines, [Skyteam).
So the 10 abreast is becoming a Skyteam trademark ?

Of course it is. But MikeyZBT was referring to the 772/77W.

I was? Since when?

Either way, we sit in A and B, so that's fine with me.

On Saturday 22 November 2008, the new .. hangar at Paris-Charles de Gaulle welcomed the first Airbus A380 from Toulouse.

This new hangar has been specifically designed for maintenance of Airbus A380 aircraft in the Air France fleet.
On the evening before Air France ground staff took over this Airbus super-jumbo, piloted by an Air France crew, as soon as it landed in Paris-Charles de Gaulle.

New Air France Hangar at Paris-CDG Welcomes the Airline’s First Airbus A380.

I have had to delete more than a dozen posts from this thread due to personal attacks, name-calling, and other TOS violations. Knock it off.

If you think someone has attacked or otherwise offended your honor, use the "Report Bad Post" function. Right then. Don't wait until you've escalated the matter. But everyone here already knows that. Right?

Now. Where were we?

I have had to delete more than a dozen posts from this thread due to personal attacks, name-calling, and other TOS violations. Knock it off.

If you think someone has attacked or otherwise offended your honor, use the "Report Bad Post" function. Right then. Don't wait until you've escalated the matter. But everyone here already knows that. Right?

Got it, thanks Alanw.

I was? Since when?

Either way, we sit in A and B, so that's fine with me.

Yeah Mikey. I think there was a misunderstanding somewhere. Haggis was refering to the 772/77W so it looked like you were talking about that. How are you doing these days anyway? Long time no see. :D

How many A380 frames shall AF receive in 2009?

The second link is for CA (Air China, *A), not for CZ (China Southern Airlines, Skyteam). Hélas, www.flychinasouthern.com doesn't have seat plans

Not sure how relevant it is AF A380's but since it was brought up.... FWIW CZ's 10 across 772 seat map is Here (http://www.csair.us/Seat_Map.htm)

I've done the 10 abreast on a 777 once. It's bad, now I'll avoid it...