Travel Technology - High End Audio - help with connections

Im wondering if there is a FTer that is a high end audio expert and would be available to help me with some connection issues.... I have an Aragon Stage One pre-amp and some Triangle Speakers, and also some new speaker cables that are bi-polar... so I need some help.... anybody out there...??

Thanks,
Gaucho100K

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I think avsforums.com has a forum for high end audio

Yes, thanks.... I was actually looking for a FT audio geek to help me out....

Gaucho, have you searched around TravelTech?

I'd bet there are some audio geeks around FT (but they would go to AVS or similar forums; Aussie equiv. is SNA (http://www.stereo.net.au)).

Good point.... any audio geeks that are over at these forums care to ID themselves..??!!!!! :D

what do you need help with? I am not an audio geek per se but I know how to run certain systems.

I have yet to play with a pre-amp, so I will try my best to help.

I am currently running:

Denon 4805
Rotel Power amp for 3rd zone
Denon Blu -ray with the TRUHD decoder
B&W in wall speakers (mid size)
B&W bubble speakers in ceiling

Solid state oxygen free speakper wires are run in my house.

Why do you have bipolar speaker wires -- does that it mean it runs both ways?

I also have a cousin in INdia who is an audio GEEK...so he might be able to help us out. Send me exactly what you need to know and I will email it to him.

Im wondering if there is a FTer that is a high end audio expert and would be available to help me with some connection issues.... I have an Aragon Stage One pre-amp and some Triangle Speakers, and also some new speaker cables that are bi-polar... so I need some help.... anybody out there...??

Thanks,
Gaucho100K

Are the cables bi-polar or bi-wired? I guess I've never heard of bipolar speaker wires before.

Are the cables bi-polar or bi-wired? I guess I've never heard of bipolar speaker wires before.

Sorry, I meant to write bi-wired...... my speakers have jacks for bi-wiring. :o

Im worried about Impedance issues... as my Aragon amplifier does not seem to have switchable impedance (I think), unless its software driven...? Also, the amplifier seems to have two possible ways to connect the speaker cables... so I dont really know how or where to start.

Denon Blu -ray with the TRUHD decoder


I was thinking about getting one of these, still a bit pricey for me, and I know if I bought 1 today the price would drop by 50% tomorrow. ;)

How expensive are the Blurays from Denon these days...?

I wonder if I should make my receiver the hub of my system, or the TV? Each has 3 HDMI connections. I was thinking that I'll put everything through the receiver, but I'm not sure that's the right decision.

I was thinking about getting one of these, still a bit pricey for me, and I know if I bought 1 today the price would drop by 50% tomorrow. ;)

it is AWESOME !!

Worth every penny I paid for it...I seriously do not think price will drop anytime soon. I got mine in April and I was the first one in town to get it...I do not even think my high end even stocks these yet.

Gaucho -- approx $1800 when I got it.

Richard -- ALWAYS make the reciever the hub of your system. Remember you tv speakers are probably max 15 watts each whereas your reciever will pump out 90-120 watts. My DENON 4805 pumps out 175watts per channel !! My 70in SONY SXRD speakers are 8 watts each...so I just disabled them and run everything thru my reciever.

Also, my reciever upconverts everything to 1080p. That is the NUMBER ONE reason as to why my DENON is my hub.

So....... any tips on my connection issue..????

You didn't mention the amplified (just the Aragon pre/pro), so I don't know if you have dedicated outputs for biwiring.

Does your cable have 4 lugs at each end or 2? My MIT bi-wire cable has 2 at the amp, which then lead to the cable crossover which has a low and high output, 4 cables/speaker spades - that makes it pretty straightforward.

My prior cables had 4 at each end. My amp had bi-wirable outputs, one high, one low on each channel, so it was 4 amp outputs to 4 speaker inputs.

Using the same 4 lug cable on my previous amp, with only stereo outputs, I simple stacked two lugs on each amp output, routing one to the high and one to the low speaker input for that channel.

If your amp has 4 posts for speakers, I'm pretty sure it would be presenting identical signals at each set, so use the left side of the first spearker output (1L) from the amp to the high input in the L speaker, 1R for the high on the R speaker, left side of the second output (2L) to the low input of the L speaker, and 2R to the low of the R speaker.

Are the cables bi-polar or bi-wired? I guess I've never heard of bipolar speaker wires before.

that would be wire to hook up a woofer or a tweeter and then deny they actually work when they do.

Firstly - a pre-amp is just that. You can't connect speakers to a pre-amp. If you list your audio equipment, it would be a good start.

However - bi-wiring in all but the very best high end stuff (and sorry Aragon/Triangle isn't :) ) is problematic - in many cases it sounds worse than simple paired connections.

Im not saying my Aragon & Triangle gear is the best stuff.... heck, I dont even know if its high end.... I just want to connect things properly.... will list what I want to connect tomorrow and would appreciate a few pointers.

Thanks to all that posted here, greatly appreciated.

Don't worry - that's why "the high end" is dying, IMHO. Too much "your stuff's not good enough". $20k/pr Magellen Concerto's, positively reviewed by Stererophile - if that's not "high end", I guess my Krell/Martin Logan/MIT is mass market dreck too.

I've had positive results bi-wiring numerous speakers, starting from my early days with Spica (1980's). The principles are the same and the advantages audible in a majority of the systems I've compared (admittedly just a handful). If your power amp has four output terminals, and speakers have 4 input terminals, I'd hook them up as I described above and enjoy them. I can't imagine an amp with two sets of outputs being hooked up any other way. (Unless it's from the '70's and has an A/B/A+B switch, indicating it's designed to run two different pairs of speakers).

Ahh the High End. How long have we got? :). Yes I was being a bit harsh, however the term "high end" has been applied to more and more mid-fi stuff over the years.

Here's a good "plain english" guide to bi-wiring from Richard Vandersteen, maker of some of the most "musical" speakers out there:

http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Answr7.htm

Ahh the High End. How long have we got? :). Yes I was being a bit harsh, however the term "high end" has been applied to more and more mid-fi stuff over the years.

Here's a good "plain english" guide to bi-wiring from Richard Vandersteen, maker of some of the most "musical" speakers out there:

http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Answr7.htm

willyroo has a good 'Reputation' (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=886596)in my book on this stuff.
Your advice mirrors a lot of what I read on SNA (http://www.stereo.net.au). :)
Debunking the audio industry spin. ;)

I year or so ago I had a 7.2 system set up in my Theater Room. All the 'experts' had different opinions on the advantages/disadvantages of biwiring. In the end I went ahead and biwired all the speakers, and I think it sounds great, but my audio range is probably not what it use to be.

Hear is one good article (http://www.brilliancehifi.co.uk/how-to-bi-wire-speakers.htm) about biwiring that I read when I was trying to sort the whole issue out.

Richard -- ALWAYS make the reciever the hub of your system. Remember you tv speakers are probably max 15 watts each whereas your reciever will pump out 90-120 watts. My DENON 4805 pumps out 175watts per channel !! My 70in SONY SXRD speakers are 8 watts each...so I just disabled them and run everything thru my reciever.

Also, my reciever upconverts everything to 1080p. That is the NUMBER ONE reason as to why my DENON is my hub.

Thank you!

OK Folks... so here is where I need emergency help with connections.... I will be wiring the following:

Amp: Aragon 3005 Power Amplifier
Sound Processor: Aragon Stage One Pre-Amp
Sound Source: Sony ES CD Changer with huge magazine

Speakers:
Triangle Ventis
Triangle Lyrr

At this point, I wont deal with the 5.1 Theater setup, I just want to wire a CD player and listen to music.... as a matter of fact, I will only wire 1 (one) pair of speakers and want to for now just listen to normal CDs..... need to have background music for a party.... :D

1) do I need to worry about impedance?
2) do I just connect two speakers to the front main channels...?
3) do I bother with bi-wiring...? if I will use bi-wire cables, can I just use one pair of terminals if I will for now forgo bi-wire?
4) am I forgetting about anything else..?

I appreciate the help with my stupid questions.....

Cheers,
Gaucho100K

1) do I need to worry about impedance?
2) do I just connect two speakers to the front main channels...?
3) do I bother with bi-wiring...? if I will use bi-wire cables, can I just use one pair of terminals if I will for now forgo bi-wire?
4) am I forgetting about anything else..?

1) No.
2) Yes.
3) Bi-wiring is a matter of choice. Some people swear by it, others say it doesn't matter. I don't bi-wire myself, but logically I could see that it might make some difference for critical listening. If you don't bi-wire, just use one pair of terminals.
4) Sounds like you've covered your immediate needs.

Good luck! :)

To expand a little on point #1 (impedance), speakers typically have an input impedance of 8 ohms but sometimes could be 4 ohms or 16 ohms. This doesn't really mean you need an amp that matches the 8 ohms.

Impedance deals with transmission of waves and electrical signals. From an audio perspective this means that it deals with the electrical load on the source that's generating the signal (the amplifier). Obviously, the amp pushes out a range of waves and therefore a range of electrical signals. To that extent, the impedance of the system varies according to what sounds are being reproduced. Your speakers are notionally 8 ohms, but the system is dealing with a varying impedance. Lower end amplifiers have a bit of trouble dealing with the range so they basically run out of steam. On the other hand, you can pair a really good amp with really crappy speakers and the speakers won't really be able to handle what the amp is pushing out.

Impedance therefore is not solely a speaker issue nor is it solely an amplifier issue. It is however, a system issue. The system you have is sufficiently good that you won't need to worry about impedance. But, there are much better systems out there that will sound better, in part because they deal with impedance better than your system does.

Hope this makes some sense. :)

Reading about the Aragon 3005's speaker posts, you might want to stick to a single cable:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/surroundsoundpreampprocessors/304aragon/index1.html

I'm not sure what kind of "bipolar wires"you have. There are two ways to biwire, You can use two pairs of speaker cables and attach two to each amplifier speaker binding post on your amp running one wire to the bass and one to the treble posts on the speaker. Alternatively, you can use biwire cables that only have a single binding post at the amplifier end and then run two independent wires to each speaker. I use the latter approach, which should be OK given, willyroo's concern expressed above. If you use a single wire rather than biwire, you will have to run a jumper between the bass and treble binding posts on your speakers.

Thanks again to everybody for your input.

I have a follow up question.... Im all set up but now need to connect my Stage One (Pre Amp) to the Amplifier (3005).... I have located the Audio out RCA Jacks on the pre-amp.... if I just want to use the CD player, do I just connect a RCA cable from the Audio out on the pre amp to each front channel on the Amp where I will be connecting the speakers...?? The Amp has both balanced and RCA inputs...

Thanks.

if I just want to use the CD player, do I just connect a RCA cable from the Audio out on the pre amp to each front channel on the Amp where I will be connecting the speakers...?? The Amp has both balanced and RCA inputs...

Correct. CD to pre-amp, then pre-amp to amplifier. (And finally amp to speakers.)

Up to a point, the type of connectors you use will make a difference. Cheap RCA = cheap sound. But don't run out and spend a lot on interconnects either. Your ears will tell you if there's a difference or not. Interconnects range in price from cheap (free) to exotic (you-can't-possibly-be-serious-that's-the-price).

Balanced (XLR) connectors may make a bit of a difference but generally only do so over longer runs. For most people, RCA is adequate. Having said that, I personally use XLR wherever I can, but that's simply by choice.

Final note - some amplifiers with both RCA and XLR have a (mechanical) switch to select the input. Others leave both connections "live" all the time and a few "auto-sense" where the input is. If you don't have any sound, check your manual to see if you need to select the input on your amp.

Thanks.... I do have some good quality RCA's that should be OK for what I want at this point..... the only exotic stuff Im spending money on right now are complex financial instruments that will go into my son's trust fund.... everything else thats for me is gonna have to be plain vanilla... :D

OK... so the gear is set up and it works.... but I have a pretty loud humming noise that requires me to kind of crank the volume to not hear it..... what on earth is that..??

OK... so the gear is set up and it works.... but I have a pretty loud humming noise that requires me to kind of crank the volume to not hear it..... what on earth is that..??

You have a ground loop. Basically not all the signals are normalized and so there is slight signal going to speakers.

Things to check. Do all power plugs are grounded and if possible connected to the same ground. You may need to get isolated power supply. Other option is to look on ebay for ground isolation loop. Also check all connections are tight.

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Hmmm... I have a brand new electrical instalation and the grounding portion is also new.

Im using a PS Audio P600 powerplant that has is fully grounded... so all components are hooked onto and get their juice from the P600.

Only thing is that the CD player does not come with a three prong plug... only standard two prong plug... is that my problem?

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bump....

OK... so the gear is set up and it works.... but I have a pretty loud humming noise that requires me to kind of crank the volume to not hear it..... what on earth is that..??Perhaps you need to turn down the Malbec if you have a constant "buzz" :D

Did you check the PS audio site?:
http://www.psaudio.com/articles/hum.asp

John

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I said hummmmm.... not buzz!

:D

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I said hummmmm.... not buzz!

:D
http://www.psaudio.com/account/humbusters.asp

Thanks, I will check out the web site.... ^

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So whats the consensus here about PS Audio Powerplants?

PS Audio is good stuff, so it appears your grounding issue is happening in other parts of the chain. Try disconnecting (power and RCA) each device one at a time - by doing this you're trying to isolate each component.

Check also you are using a power cord that is correct for your device. Some devices don't require a ground wire - this is sometimes known as "double insulated" - and if you put one in the system with a ground wire that may cause your issue.

This is where my earlier comment about "less being preferred to more" regarding cables. Each time you add another high quality copper conductor you add another opportunity for stray "stuff" to get into your system.

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So whats the consensus here about PS Audio Powerplants?

I'm running a Power Plant Premiere and am quite happy with it (except that the fan makes too much noise when I run the power amp--so my power amp isn't on it.)

Cable TV often causes a hum. If you have the TV hooked up to your system, try disconnecting it. Also try using two pronged cheater cords on each piece of equipment to see if that reduces the hum.

I definitely would do this rather than give up the Malbec:)

A few tips to track down hum problems:

1. I would do a process of elimination, unplugging each source component until the hum problem goes away, working your way up the chain to the output stages. Or unplug everything, then one at a time add each component to the system until you hear a buzz, starting with the speakers connected to the amp, amp connected to the receiver, then source components hooked into the receiver. Could be a bad cable, could be a ground loop issue, or it may be a problem with the component's design. It doesn't matter how expensive the component, some have flawed signal grounding designs.

2. Cleanliness and neatness are important with your wiring. Try to avoid having a sea of spaghetti with regards to your wiring behind the components, keep audio and video cables separate from AC line cords and speaker level cables as best as you can (6 inches minimum), coil up excess cable and use wire ties to bundle each coil up.

3. Make sure the AC receptacle that powers your system has a solid ground connection. A knowledgeable electrician should be consulted to make sure the receptacle is grounded, and that your service panel is properly grounded as well.

4. Ground loop hums can come from other sources. Cable TV is notorious for introducing hums and buzzes into your system because the Cable TV distribution system is on a different ground plane, which gets shared with your system's ground through the cable shield. I've seen huge ground currents here! If your cable company cannot resolve the problem on their end, get one of these (http://www.jensen-transformers.com/datashts/vrd1ff.pdf) isolators to eliminate this problem.

Also try using two pronged cheater cords on each piece of equipment to see if that reduces the hum.
While ground cheaters can be used to lift the safety ground from a piece of equipment, it's design really is meant to add a safety ground to a receptacle that doesn't have one (through a grounded wallplate screw). Because of this misuse, many jurisdictions in North America have outright banned them because of the safety and liability issues involved. I have a pair that I use for system troubleshooting, but never do I use them for a permanent solution for a ground/hum problem! Don't defeat the safety ground of any electrical device, this can prove very dangerous, not to mention any insurance/liability implications should someone get hurt or damage occurs to the premises (fire, other equipment damage).

Solid state oxygen free speakper wires are run in my house.

:confused: I must be far behind the times... my wires have all sorts of relays and tubes in them.

Selling wires as "solid-state" is like selling bottled water as "liquid".

Impedance deals with transmission of waves and electrical signals. From an audio perspective this means that it deals with the electrical load on the source that's generating the signal (the amplifier). Obviously, the amp pushes out a range of waves and therefore a range of electrical signals. To that extent, the impedance of the system varies according to what sounds are being reproduced. Your speakers are notionally 8 ohms, but the system is dealing with a varying impedance. Lower end amplifiers have a bit of trouble dealing with the range so they basically run out of steam. On the other hand, you can pair a really good amp with really crappy speakers and the speakers won't really be able to handle what the amp is pushing out.

Speaker impedance is mostly a function of frequency. The specified nominal impedance is usually a small multiple (slightly above unity) of the minimum impedance. Generally there are plenty of non-linear effects in a speaker, especially at high amplitudes. But don't ask me; I'm a solid-state circuits guy.

One important thing to note is that speaker impedance can be very important when using class-D amplifiers*. Class-D amps can be very sensitive to loudspeaker impedance; both high and low impedance levels can hurt the sound quality, and sometimes even the amplifier itself.

*: of course there is probably no intersection between the set of people who buy preamps for CD players and the set of people who buy class-D audio amplifiers.

You have a ground loop. Basically not all the signals are normalized and so there is slight signal going to speakers.
The most obvious source of this issue is here:
Correct. CD to pre-amp, then pre-amp to amplifier. (And finally amp to speakers.)
Adding analog layers like this is begging for ground loops, especially if you don't plug all of your components into the same outlet or $1000+ power filter thingamajig.

If you keep everything digital until the last possible moment (digital -> speaker level in one box) using non-conducting (i.e. fiber optic) cables, you pretty much eliminate the chance of ground loops affecting the signal.

As far as this electrical engineer knows, preamps are for amplifying low level analog signals (e.g. mics, turntables, instruments, satellite signals) for transmission to other devices. In a home stereo (excluding turntables) you already have digitally encoded or high level analog signals. What's the point of a preamp?

I'm running a Power Plant Premiere and am quite happy with it (except that the fan makes too much noise when I run the power amp--so my power amp isn't on it.)

Isn't this asking for ground loops? I would imagine that using separate AC sources for different parts of the signal chain would have the potential to create non-trivial ground loops, especially if one of those sources claims to be able to alter the power supply frequency.

BTW: Does PS Audio actually have datasheets for their products?

I'm running 2 systems. My trusty matched pair tube Mac MC-110A pre-amp tuner bi -amped with matching MC-250 power amps, there is a slight hum coming from the transformer windings when I crank it into my DQ 10-A's.

My solid state system Nakamichi STR-515 receiver now split into a pre-amp out into 2 Hafler DH-120's pumping a pair of Braun(ADS) speakers does well...but yes it is a bit overkill, but the audiophile in me loves the match.
An isolation transformer would be a very good idea after you have exhausted all of the tips Arthurrs suggested.
Good luck on finding the hum..I have replaced capacitors that dried up, but that was more of an AC hum. My next project is setting up my old Braun LV 1200 tri-amped speakers. I have a Sony Digital Surround Sound Processor which I use to power the Sony Sub woofer..that could also be a source of hum if you don't watch the input level. As you can see I am old school and need to catch up.:o

I'm running 2 systems. My trusty matched pair tube Mac MC-110A pre-amp tuner bi -amped with matching MC-250 power amps, there is a slight hum coming from the transformer windings when I crank it into my DQ 10-A's.

I'm shocked that the high-end audio business has not adopted the use of DC power distribution. Sell a power supply (AC->DC) to put in a closet or whatnot, and power all of the equipment with DC. No transformer hum (unless you're using tube amps ;)).

Perhaps it's a code thing.