American Express Membership Rewards - Can an Attorney take care of the AMEX FR?

What type of Attorney would I need to fight the Amex Financial Review. They want my 2007 Tax Returns and 3 months of bank statements. I don't mind the bank statements but I am not giving in for the tax returns.

I suspect it would cost a whole lot more than it is worth to get a lawyer to work on this.

After all, you can always just close your Amex account--unless you have some special reason to get into a battle.

By the way, I wouldn't give Amex my tax returns, either.

I suspect it would cost a whole lot more than it is worth to get a lawyer to work on this.

After all, you can always just close your Amex account--unless you have some special reason to get into a battle.

By the way, I wouldn't give Amex my tax returns, either.

+1

Cheers

What would an attorney do? How is the request illegal?

Unfortunately, given what you've posted about your situation, I think you better get used to not having an amex.

Sounds like it is time to get another card to me as well. If you've been a good customer to AMEX they will either back down or lose you. I'd never give them my tax returns either.

Of course an attorney can take care of this for you. But it is expensive to pay a lawyer to submit your tax returns to Amex...

Read around this board, I don't think you can fight this. If you think you will fail the FR, close your accounts now - before Amex does it for you.

Did u find a way at the end?? i have same issue....have to reply within 5 days or they will close the account

Just curious, as so far I have managed to avoid the evil FR police (with far poorer credit and lower incomes than some have posted), but why are people reluctant to share tax returns with AmEx?

Manual inputting the Dollar amount credit line increases way above your income will trigger the AMEX Financial Review... they will want to see your income before giving you a higher line of credit.. Failure to submit such information will result in immediate closures of accounts.

Just curious, as so far I have managed to avoid the evil FR police (with far poorer credit and lower incomes than some have posted), but why are people reluctant to share tax returns with AmEx?

Maybe because they feel that unfettered access to their tax returns is too big of an invasion into their privacy?

Maybe because their "real" income as reported to the IRS doesn't match what they told Amex?

Maybe because their "real" income doesn't match what they are telling the IRS? :)

Lots and lots of reasons....But if you want to keep your Amex, you have to comply. Its as simple as that.

Not really so simple.

A good lawyer could come up with numerous ways to attack this in court.

For example, wonder if, say, Latinos are being targeted for FR? Or, more women than men?

But the cost ....

By the way, per the NY Times, Amex is expecting 20-23% of its accounts to default and be written off over the next couple of years. No wonder they are doing FRs!

The advice to simply move on may be very practical but certainly not easy. The AMEX Card and, even more so, the AMEX Starwood card have provided my family with incredible, free vacations.

The advice to simply get another card may be correct - it seems very hard to change AMEX's mind. But I've yet to hear anyone suggest an alternative that even comes close. Does anyone out there have a strong feeling about an adequate replacement?

The advice to simply move on may be very practical but certainly not easy. The AMEX Card and, even more so, the AMEX Starwood card have provided my family with incredible, free vacations.

Well, I can certainly understand your feelings on a human level, but frankly, at this point in the game that's actually irrelevant. As I've attempted to say on numerous FT threads (to no avail!) The game is changing. Period. It's not about whether it's easy or whether we like it; it's changing. Many peoples retirement accounts have lost half of their value, that's certainly not easy. Many folks have lost their jobs, that's not easy either. I'm not sure the advice to cancel your card is necessarily supposed to be "easy."


The advice to simply get another card may be correct - it seems very hard to change AMEX's mind. But I've yet to hear anyone suggest an alternative that even comes close. Does anyone out there have a strong feeling about an adequate replacement?

If you accept the premise that the game is changing, then a logical (and unpalatable for many) conclusion is that there may not be an adequate replacement. There is of course no universal requirement that the financial industry create credit instruments that ensure the right to enjoy "incredible, free vacations." And remember, those vacations aren't "free" by any stretch, their cost is just being absorbed by someone other than you.

Good luck with whatever path you choose.

Regards

Maybe because they feel that unfettered access to their tax returns is too big of an invasion into their privacy?

A tax return does not contain a list of your assets, only your income that year. And, Amex already knows your income since you told them what it was when you applied for the card, and possibly when you requested a credit line increase.

Maybe because their "real" income as reported to the IRS doesn't match what they told Amex?

Maybe because their "real" income doesn't match what they are telling the IRS? :)

I suspect that one of these two is the case in a great many situations where people are concerned about their "privacy" and don't want to show Amex their tax returns.

It's not uncommon for a mortgage company to ask to verify your financial status, to include one or more tax returns, prior to giving you a mortgage. It's also not uncommon to have to provide the same information when buying a car. In both of those cases you are giving the lender a lien against the collateral you're purchasing. Why the surprise and indignation when you're asked to provide verification on a signature loan with no collateral?

Undocumented loans are one cause of our mortgage crisis we now face. If your tax returns don't agree with your AMEX application, shame on you. If they do, provide them or close the account. Some clerk will read the return, approve or deny the application and you move on.

Not really so simple.

A good lawyer could come up with numerous ways to attack this in court.

For example, wonder if, say, Latinos are being targeted for FR? Or, more women than men?

Actually, really so simple. No lawyer would take the case. Amex sets the T&C's for granting an account. There's nothing you can do. Comply or don't borrow.

I know many good lawyers who would take this case in an instant--if the client wanted to pay by the hour.

If you want to believe that contracts are not regulated by law and that anything a corporation puts in a contract is the final word--that is your option.

I know many good lawyers who would take this case in an instant--if the client wanted to pay by the hour.

Of course you do, and so do I. What does a lawyer have to lose being paid by the hour by a well heeled Don Quixote?


If you want to believe that contracts are not regulated by law and that anything a corporation puts in a contract is the final word--that is your option.

They are regulated by law, but asking for indisputable proof of income in the form of a 4506-T isn't grounds for a lawsuit.

As to the grounds you're conjecturing (ethnic profiling), how does Amex know if you're a minority or not? Or a male or female for that matter? Grounds for suits like that in the past occurred when someone applied in person for a mortgage (or other loan) and were racially profiled.

I doubt anyone here has ever met an Amex card rep "in the flesh" to apply for a card or to dispute an issue...

Read my previous posts on this topic.

In short, transfer your MR points NOW, then close all your accounts. Wait a few months and re-apply for same accounts, if you have a good credit score and no defaults, AX does not hold any grudges, they will open new accounts (do not ask for re-instatements). The really good news, they treat you as a new customer and give you the new customer bonus points, what a deal!!

Hiring an attorney, what a waste of money for no different result.

And, if you think AX cares if you stay a customer, you are way wrong!!

As to the grounds you're conjecturing (ethnic profiling), how does Amex know if you're a minority or not? Or a male or female for that matter? Grounds for suits like that in the past occurred when someone applied in person for a mortgage (or other loan) and were racially profiled.

Guess I should have put a smiley face in my comments so folks would understand it should be seen as something of a joke. :o At least as to the hiring a lawyer by the hour to go into this. I agree--not practical, costwise. @:-)

In any event, there have been many, many cases in the past where the bank has been found to discriminate on, e.g., racial grounds, without ever seeing the client. If your last name is Tran or Wu or Cohen for example, or if you live an area determined to "undesireable." Maybe because certain groups live there.

This is one reason the banks have, in theory, to tell you why they turning you down for credit. Probably be better for all if such laws were enforced--and maybe they will be in the near future.

In any event, supose that Amex has determined to use a program which picks out folks for the dreaded FR. And, the program picks out a disproportionate number of, maybe, women, Chinese, Swedes or whatever ...:eek:

In any event, supose that Amex has determined to use a program which picks out folks for the dreaded FR. And, the program picks out a disproportionate number of, maybe, women, Chinese, Swedes or whatever ...:eek:

It picks out people that have unusual spending patterns. Be they male, female, swedes...

Exactly how do you know that? Please let us know.

Exactly how do you know that? Please let us know.

Reading here, creditboards.com. Do a search, the stories are largely the same. Mostly Charge Card customers, lots of volume or strange charging pattens (like guys that have used their Amex to fund Google/click advertising businesses (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/american-express-membership-rewards/872837-under-amex-financial-review-please-help.html)).

The process is very simple: You have the IRS send Amex your 4605-T output and if they like what they see, you keep charging. If your numbers don't add up or you don't comply (for whatever reason) and they fire you as a customer.

You have a right to attribute it to more nefarious motives. I think Amex just wants to ensure that they are going to be paid. But I also subscribe to the Horses before Zebras theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_(medical))too.

(BTW, I've never been through an F/R. My primary card is my Starwood card. I hold a Plat card for lounge access, but I've never put more than about $2K on the Plat card since I've held it)

Per the Simpsons last night there is much discrimination in Springfield against Swedes. :D

In any event, I attribute no motives, evil or otherwise, to Amex re FRs. I do note that many credit companies in the past have done nefarious things to their customer without revealing just what is going on.

The main point of my comments is that to dismiss the possibility of of nefarious actions without full knowledge is suspect. And, I suspect none of us have full knowledge and probably won't get it without a lawsuit--if even then.

Reminds me of a bankers convention I was at where the speakier, with a knowing wink, said to the audience: "banks do not discriminate nowaday." And the audience roared with laughter. :eek:

A tax return does not contain a list of your assets, only your income that year. And, Amex already knows your income since you told them what it was when you applied for the card, and possibly when you requested a credit line increase.


While the return doesn't directly show assets it is a window to your overall life situation. There's dependent info, there's possibly business info. Mine has detail on all my autos as they are business vehicles. It has ssn's, bank account #'s etc. There's just too much info in one place that I don't want anyone to see it. After all, who actually sees this? Where is it stored? For how long?

I don't mind giving out snapshots such as employer and W2 info but not the whole thing.

There are currently plenty of business and consumers lenders out there that will give you a card without revealing your tax info.

I suspect that those lenders will be few and far between as chargeoff rates climb into the teens.

There are currently plenty of business and consumers lenders out there that will give you a card without revealing your tax info.

I suspect that those lenders will be few and far between as chargeoff rates climb into the teens.

Now you're sounding like a banking industry lobbyist...LOL

Truth is, we went through this same thing back in the late '80s and early '90s. It's all cyclical, and hardly anything new. So what do we learn from history? Mainly, that the banks that screwed up go under, but most of them don't. We'll see more restrictive legislation, that after a decade or so will get so watered down by lobbying efforts that the cycle repeats again. And in the meantime, the consumer/business credit segment won't change one bit, except for a short period of higher interest rates that correspond to an even shorter period of higher chargeoffs. That's really all she wrote.

5 years from now, you won't have to give tax returns and DNA samples to get a credit card any more than you do now. This isn't some permanent game-changer, it's all just another cycle. I think media attention and the introduction of "consumer sentiment" predictors have made this whole thing seem worse than it really was.

If you are an existing customer of American Express, they need a legal justification for their demand for your tax returns.

Has anyone seen a demand letter from them? On what basis do they demand the tax returns? Do they cite a provision of the "cardmember agreement" that purports to give them the right to make such demand?

They can close your account whenever they want--so long as it is not being done for prohibited reason, e.g. religious discrimination.

they need a legal justification

Contractual. And they have it. Lawmakers are curbing many of their usual tricks, though, I think F/R will remain.

The advice to simply move on may be very practical but certainly not easy. The AMEX Card and, even more so, the AMEX Starwood card have provided my family with incredible, free vacations.

The advice to simply get another card may be correct - it seems very hard to change AMEX's mind. But I've yet to hear anyone suggest an alternative that even comes close. Does anyone out there have a strong feeling about an adequate replacement?

Some people have had success closing their accounts and then reopening at a later date. They shouldn't show up as "new accounts" on your credit report due to AMEX's reporting style

Some people have had success closing their accounts and then reopening at a later date. They shouldn't show up as "new accounts" on your credit report due to AMEX's reporting style

1. Be very nice to the AX FR person on the phone, say yes to everything. Hang up and do not act to comply with the FR.

2. Immediately transfer all MR points to another program.

3. Call back to main Customer Service and cancel all cards.

4. Wait a couple months and re-apply for all the AX cards you want.

I have gotten at least 8 new AX cards since my FR resulted in account closures. (read that 150,000 MR points with no fees and another 40,000 DL SM with no fee). You gotta love AX, they do not hold a grudge.