Air New Zealand Air Points - Hopefully, ANZ's nonsense will stop soon... now that United's filed a complaint

As a United Mileage Plus member, I have tried many times to get award seats on ANZ only to find that they do not release any seats on many flights. I have never understood this. All "decent" airlines release seats on every flight 325-335 days before the flight. Define "decent"!!! I also know that Delta and Continental (SkyTeam) revel in pursuing this obnoxious strategy but I don't know of any other airline in Star Alliance that does this. The situation is really complicated with ANZ itineraries because not only are the flights so scarce between Pacific Islands, but they are also not every day... which creates huge issues when one tries to book a routing with a stopover or making sure that the 24 hour rule is not violated.

So over the last year I have continued to struggle with itineraries which have holes in them... because Auckland-Rarotonga and Auckland-Apia are just not available. For example, let's take Auckland-Samoa next July. I kept the agent from UA Mileage Plus on the phone when I conferenced a 3-way with ANZ. The ANZ agent quite unabashedly told me... "look it's the holidays in July and you'll be better off buying a revenue ticket because they may not open any space AKL-APW".

It shouldn't matter that airlines might be able to fill an entire flight (esp. during the holidays) with revenue pax. As I said, the decent ones still open at least a seat or two on every flight so that the early bookers can get in on the action. And I mean EVERY flight.

I called back and spoke to the UA Mileage Plus desk about ANZ's baloney. I was quite surprised when they told me that I was not the only one and there were many pax frustrated with and had complained about this situation. In fact, United was apparently on the way to lodging a formal complaint with ANZ about this.

To me, it seems like there are two major factors which cause airlines to not release any seats on a certain flight.

1. Competition. If they're the only one in a market (especially ANZ on some of the Pacific routes) they will choose to do whatever they want. I was shocked when I found out that ANZ actually charges for enrollment in their FF program!!! Good golly... Wonder what would happen if a US airline even thought of trying that.

2. Profitability. Certain airlines like DL and CO have had dismal financial performance in the last few years. Clearly its the struggling airlines which would hold back seats on flights.

Anyways, bottom line is let's see how long ANZ is allowed to keep this up.

It shouldn't matter that airlines might be able to fill an entire flight (esp. during the holidays) with revenue pax.


Airlines don't have to open a seat on every flight and if they can sell every seat (ie christmas, school holidays etc) then I would expect them to restrict award seats or not offer them.


I was shocked when I found out that ANZ actually charges for enrollment in their FF program!!!

So do Qantas


2. Profitability. Certain airlines like DL and CO have had dismal financial performance in the last few years. Clearly its the struggling airlines which would hold back seats on flights.

Perhaps it is because they are giving away award seats on flights where they could be making big $$$$. Which is why decent airlines (like Air NZ, Qantas, Cathay, Singapore Air, British Airways etc) all restrict award availability (and may not even offer it on all flights).


Anyways, bottom line is let's see how long ANZ is allowed to keep this up


As long as they like - I don't think anything will change.

There's at least 4 issues in your post.

1) Whether airlines should make at least 1 FF seat available on every flight. Many airlines do not. As it happens NZ does, but you may need NZ Airpoints to get them.

2) UA Mileage Plus blocking. Read the many threads in UA forum about that - search on starnet filtering.

3) Award seats may already have been taken by the time you looked.

4) Are you being flexible enough in choice of flights, routing, class of travel, etc? I know for a fact that NZ does release award seats to Rarotonga, Samoa, etc; because I know people who have gotten some awards (even on UA mileage plus miles) over the past year.

As I said, the decent ones still open at least a seat or two on every flight so that the early bookers can get in on the action. And I mean EVERY flightup.Can you prove that statement.

Can you prove that you are first to try for an award seat on any flight

So over the last year I have continued to struggle with itineraries which have holes in them... because Auckland-Rarotonga and Auckland-Apia are just not available.

I've just looked up about 10 consecutive days in May 2009 AKL-APW and most of these have availability (business and economy)

I can see that the OP is frustrated at NZ award availability through UA MP (as I often am as well). The bottom line is that the OP cannot actually say that 1 seat was not made available at any point for the flight in question

Jeff

I called back and spoke to the UA Mileage Plus desk ... In fact, United was apparently on the way to lodging a formal complaint with ANZ about this.
And you actually believed them?

2. Profitability. Certain airlines like DL and CO have had dismal financial performance in the last few years. Clearly its the struggling airlines which would hold back seats on flights.

Anyways, bottom line is let's see how long ANZ is allowed to keep this up.

As far as I know, United is bleeding red ink. Delta and Continental....not so much. Maybe has something to do with the fact that on United, almost nobody pays for business or first class and their economy class is crap and doesn't deserve a premium over Ryanair (at least Ryanair's got new planes, unlike United's pathetic and old ones). And on airlines like Air New Zealand, people actually pay for business class and their economy class is nice enough that they can command a premium.

Let's look at financial results, shall we? United lost $2.749 billion in the quarter ending Jun 30, 2008. Continental, in that same quarter, lost $3 million. Delta in that same quarter, only lost $1.044 billion. Who's got dismal performance now? And last year (2007), of the 6 legacies, United was #6 in financial performance. Yes, DEAD LAST. I wonder why that might be. Maybe the reason I mentioned above? I've looked at United' financials for the past 5 years (2004-YTD 08), and except for the year they left bankruptcy, United has had consistently poor financial performance. Heck, even jetBlue of all airlines beat United last quarter.

Only idiot airlines like United give away seats on flights that would fill up with paying passengers anyway (or their suckitude results in being unable to fill seats on international flights where there's real competition). If I have 300 seats on an airplane headed for destination X, and there are 350 people banging down my door to buy a seat on that plane, I'd be RAISING prices, and I'd be an IDIOT to give ANY of them away. :rolleyes:

But let's not bother with facts. :rolleyes:

An award is simply that, an award. I honestly think UA don't give a rats a**e if you don't get award and as for filing a complaint against NZ, I think not.

That aside, APW and RAR are very popular in July and the awards may have already been snapped up.

I flew my wife LAX-RAR during peak season last July.

Because LAX-RAR only flies a few days a week, we used a different routing strategy with far better results- LAX-AKL-RAR. WHY?

Because there are MULTIPLE DAILY frequencies. Snagged a Busines Class seat no problem.

I don't see why NZ shouldn't charge for membership. They are providing a service to its customers. If i call the call center and put my airpoints number in i get instant service.

If your disgusted at the fact they charge a joining fee did you know if you dont fly NZ metal every year they charge you a $30 fee.


Its not NZs fault that they are the only *A airline flying the routes that are mentioned UA could get rights to them if they wanted.

Maybe you should write a complaint to UA and ask them to start flying to Auckland so you can get an award seat

dot dot dot

Define "decent"!!!

You want to have a debate about which of these airlines (UA and NZ) is the most decent? :confused:

There is not relay a need for NZ to open up award seats for AKL- ISLAND because thoughts that live in NZ should be using NZ FF and be able to pick any seat.

Maybe you should write a complaint to UA and ask them to start flying to Auckland so you can get an award seatUA used to fly into AKL, but who would fly UA when you could chose Air NZ.

Given UA's apparent notoriety when it comes to "filtering" *A awards I imagine the response to any complaint about NZ not making award seats available would be met with the classic phrase...

"Pot... this is Kettle...... Over." :D

As a United Mileage Plus member, I have tried many times to get award seats on ANZ ...

Oh well.

But just so you know, from where we're all sitting it sure could be a whole lot worse. We could try to get a UA award ... and succeed ... :eek:

I'm just staggered that anyone could seriously disparage Air New Zealand for supposedly failing to live up to the standards of a third-rate airline like United.

In actual fact, awards on other carriers are a privilege, not a right. If you want optimal access to NZ awards then join Air NZ Airpoints. Just like we can't sit in United Economy Plus any more even though we have Star Gold status because UA don't choose to recognise our status.

More to the point, how come those of use from countries with decent standards in our aviation markets have to pay to check in luggage and don't get fed on paid tickets on United and US Airways?

If any airlines should be kicked out of the Star Alliance for unacceptably low service levels I would have thought that UA and US are the obvious candidates!

Anyways, bottom line is let's see how long ANZ is allowed to keep this up.

I don't even think its worth pointing out all the many the errors in your logic.

UA is going to lodge a formal protest against NZ? And if they did, its going to make an impact on award availability? And NZ is obligated to release award seats on every flight? Fantasy land. :rolleyes:

What a load of rubbish.
I have not been able to get paid for seats on Star Alliance RTW tickets well in advance (9 months). Why would I expect to get availiability for award tickets? If any airline can sell tickets for strong revenue there should be no expectation of a free ride.
As mentioned above NZ Airporints members can get any seat availiable for purchase on any flight. Join the AirNZ programme and enjoy the ability to get seats (but no Elite access to E+ on UA).

Welcome to FT bosboy73 :) Your choice of travel discussion threads is to be commended ^ but it would seem that your venting of dissatisfaction has been somewhat "from the heart" and your frustrations have engendered some of the usual parochial responses :o

As you can see from the more non-partisan responses, award availability on NZ has been a mixed bag. My personal experience has been a 100% success rate on six roundtrips this year in business class. I have used UA MP miles and obtained saver awards through the 1K desk. BUT

My itineraries have been trans-tasman. Between Australia and NZ there are several flights to choose from. That said, I have never needed to fly at unearthly hours i.e. early morning or late night flights.


I have been flexible in my travel dates +/- 1 day.


Kiwi Flyer has alluded to the most logical explanations including Starnet filtering.

For the record, from a personal perspective, I have had good and bad experiences with NZ and UA. Rudeness and unhelpfulness has been more frequent on NZ whereas UA have shown more incompetence and inefficiency.

I wish you every success with your attempts.

I know for a fact that NZ does release award seats to Rarotonga, Samoa, etc; because I know people who have gotten some awards (even on UA mileage plus miles) over the past year.

Yup, like me in April. MEL-AKL-TBU-APW-AKL-MEL all segments but one in business via UA miles. Best redemption value on the chart, unless you can manage to start your journey in PER!

Nice post, kangela. While as many have pointed out, the OP's post contained some, er, creative interpretations of reality, it does raise a valid point which is that it's not unreasonable to expect that FF miles are awarded as part of the entire package that your airfare buys you, and they are done so with the expectation that they can (with reasonable planning etc) be used. The fact that an airline could profitably sell those seats is not in itself justification for not offering some as redemption seats. UA's starnet filtering is a whole other issue, I know, but NZ's lack of award seats on the transpac routes is something that frustrates me as well.

OP here. Thanks to all for comments to which I will try to respond.

To start with, a lil' bit of background... to explain my perspective on this.

I am not a "frequent flyer" on any airline, and therefore I apologize if this has turned into one but it was NOT my intention to make this an ANZ vs. UA or ANZ vs. DL discussion. I do not earn miles by flying. I only fly to redeem miles. 99.9% of my miles come from partner activity (financial, car rental etc.). So I have no allegiance to United or American or anybody although I do maintain accounts with multiple FF programs though so I do care about availability.

I fly on an award tickets about 10-12 times a year and have been doing so for several years. I don't think I have experienced even one situation where I have had to change my flight dates because there was no availability (except on ANZ). The reason why I have always found a seat to any destination on any given day (including Christmas and New Year, Easter or summer holidays... whatever) is that either
(1) multiple airlines in each of the three alliances (Star Alliance, OneWorld and SkyTeam) fly to those locations... and
(2) Seats are available on at least 1 alliance on any given day to anywhere
(3) I book every ticket 10-11 months in advance the moment the award seats are released. I can't book half my itinerary 11 months in advance and leave the other half till later when if ever the seats open up. Doesn't work that way. Can't ticket anything that way.

The issue I have with ANZ is that they are the only airline in any alliance to fly to Pacific destinations (APW, RAR... I think Tonga also and maybe a few others) and when they decide not to release any award seats on a given day, it greatly restricts my options.

Airlines don't have to open a seat on every flight and if they can sell every seat (ie christmas, school holidays etc) then I would expect them to restrict award seats or not offer them.

Perhaps it is because they are giving away award seats on flights where they could be making big $$$$. Which is why decent airlines (like Air NZ, Qantas, Cathay, Singapore Air, British Airways etc) all restrict award availability (and may not even offer it on all flights).



Only idiot airlines like United give away seats on flights that would fill up with paying passengers anyway (or their suckitude results in being unable to fill seats on international flights where there's real competition). If I have 300 seats on an airplane headed for destination X, and there are 350 people banging down my door to buy a seat on that plane, I'd be RAISING prices, and I'd be an IDIOT to give ANY of them away. :rolleyes:

But let's not bother with facts. :rolleyes:

AN_Boy and stupidhead... sorry, I absolutely do not agree with that strategy. As I said, I know many airlines which release seats on every flight. I have flown on award tickets on MANY MANY flights which end up being chock a block full (Honolulu, Miami, Sydney etc.)... over July and Christmas and February etc. and clearly the airlines know that each and every seat can be filled with rev paying passengers. If an airline never released award seats on high demand flights on certain days, then essentially these are unofficial "blackout" dates - a big NO NO for award programs.

Philosophically, blocking seats on high demand flights does two things... (1) Devalues the FF program as it forces customers who wish to travel on that specific day to be flexible - which is NOT something which people who fly often are (2) Alienates these customers who will then use another alliance for their travel plans.

Ultimately, whatever the economics, mileage programs are a huge source of revenue for airlines. In some cases these programs are the only profitable part of the airline. Therefore blindly saying that releasing award seats is "giving them away" is entirely incorrect. In return for not earning revenue on these flights, what the airlines are offering is the ability for early bookers to use their miles.... and secondly and more importantly, MILES ARE NOT FREE. The product partners (financial companies, car rental companies, restaurants etc.) pay huge $$$ to airlines to buy their miles. In fact, when airlines themselves offer "Buy Miles" options to passengers, how on earth can they be considered free??!!!

Really, if I WANT To fly on July 7 for example, I HAVE to fly on July 7 because that is the only date which makes it possible for me to use miles to get my stopovers etc. on the same ticket... AND take time off from work etc. and coordinate my schedule etc. As I said before, I can't book half my itinerary 11 months in advance and leave half till later when if ever the seats open up. Doesn't work that way. Can't ticket anything that way.

Therefore... releasing award seats (especially on high demand flights) is nothing but a service to passengers who use the mileage program... and I think airlines like ANZ, primarily because they have a complete and total monopoly on certain destinations (again, the only airline in ANY alliance which flies to APW, RAR etc.) can do whatever they wish and "service" is overridden by revenue considerations.

Finally on this issue... AN_Boy I really don't think opening two award seats on each of a few hundred flights over Christmas and holidays is really what is causing American and United to face financial doom. :D

There's at least 4 issues in your post.

4) Are you being flexible enough in choice of flights, routing, class of travel, etc? I know for a fact that NZ does release award seats to Rarotonga, Samoa, etc; because I know people who have gotten some awards (even on UA mileage plus miles) over the past year.

Kiwi Flyer - No, I have zero flexibility. See above. Flexibility has never been required on the 10+ award bookings I make every year.

Most importantly, I am NOT contending that ANZ releases NO seats AKL-Islands. I am contending that they don’t release seats on ALL flights so it becomes a huge issue for pax with complicated routings that include stopovers – where parts of the itinerary work and parts are a big gaping hole.

I've just looked up about 10 consecutive days in May 2009 AKL-APW and most of these have availability (business and economy)

I can see that the OP is frustrated at NZ award availability through UA MP (as I often am as well). The bottom line is that the OP cannot actually say that 1 seat was not made available at any point for the flight in question

Jeff

Jeff - (1) I am talking about availability in July and August from AKL- Islands, no other time. It ain’t no good if seats are released for 2 flights out of 10 in the week… when I’m on a complex North America to Pacific/NZ itinerary, I don’t have the flexibility to mess around with the days (2) You can call Airpoints and they can (sometimes) tell you if any award seats were ever released... although most of the time you will get the standard response "Don't know, Can't see" etc.

I flew my wife LAX-RAR during peak season last July.

Because LAX-RAR only flies a few days a week, we used a different routing strategy with far better results- LAX-AKL-RAR. WHY?

Because there are MULTIPLE DAILY frequencies. Snagged a Busines Class seat no problem.

Thanks beaubo I just did the RAR-LAX flight on miles two months ago myself. It was half empty. Back to my point. It shouldn't be just the half empty ones on which ANZ releases seats. The AKL-RAR flight I tried to use miles on was almost 99% full... and so the mileage seats were never released 10 months in advance... maybe ever.

I don't see why NZ shouldn't charge for membership. They are providing a service to its customers. If i call the call center and put my airpoints number in i get instant service.

If your disgusted at the fact they charge a joining fee did you know if you dont fly NZ metal every year they charge you a $30 fee.

cavemanzk - you're right, that is really unbelievable. Qantas and ANZ really do spoil you folks down south!! Try to get a US airline to charge for membership... and/or not flying!!! And again, I said before... I never earn miles by flying... so if ANZ requires you to fly, then I'm not sure why I would ever use their mileage program versus any of the other airlines in Star Alliance or OneWorld etc... It is really irregular that some airlines charge for FF program membership… American Airlines is currently AWARDING 1,000 bonus miles to anyone who signs up… I guess things really are different down under ;)

Maybe you should write a complaint to UA and ask them to start flying to Auckland so you can get an award seat

dot dot dot

Rebound sorry can't see what this has to do with this thread. I was talking about AKL-Islands.

There is not relay a need for NZ to open up award seats for AKL- ISLAND because thoughts that live in NZ should be using NZ FF and be able to pick any seat.

cavemanzk I have no clue what you mean. I don't think mileage availability is necessarily any better for AirPoints members versus any other Star Alliance program member. Maybe in certain cases but mostly it is First Come First Serve for anyone using AirPoints or Partners. What does this have to do with the thread... the whole purpose of the Alliance and the Partner system is to use miles from one program on any other airline in the Alliance etc.

You want to have a debate about which of these airlines (UA and NZ) is the most decent? :confused:

NZ_Flyer - sorry, I have no desire for such a debate - clarified above. I have no allegiance to any specific airline.

UA used to fly into AKL, but who would fly UA when you could chose Air NZ.

Mwenenzi - Didn't expect to have any discussion about anything but AKL-Islands.

I'm just staggered that anyone could seriously disparage Air New Zealand for supposedly failing to live up to the standards of a third-rate airline like United.

In actual fact, awards on other carriers are a privilege, not a right. If you want optimal access to NZ awards then join Air NZ Airpoints. Just like we can't sit in United Economy Plus any more even though we have Star Gold status because UA don't choose to recognise our status.

DCF - Totally agree with you on the fact that United and US have very poor standards. Not debating that at all over here.

Do disagree with you about the privilege issue. As I mentioned before, the whole purpose of an Alliance is for seamless wall-to-wall visibility and availability on all partners including access to Mileage programs. It is and should be a right.

And by the way, belonging to AirPoints would not allow me any better luck with the AKL-Islands flights on which ANZ does not release any seats to anyone - AirPoints members of partners.

I don't even think its worth pointing out all the many the errors in your logic.

UA is going to lodge a formal protest against NZ? And if they did, its going to make an impact on award availability? And NZ is obligated to release award seats on every flight? Fantasy land. :rolleyes:

SJPaul Sorry, but its pretty clear that it’s you who is in Fantasy land when you have no clue that there are several airlines who actually do release seats on every flight. No, there is no obligation… but then that’s what this thread is about.

What a load of rubbish.
I have not been able to get paid for seats on Star Alliance RTW tickets well in advance (9 months). Why would I expect to get availiability for award tickets? If any airline can sell tickets for strong revenue there should be no expectation of a free ride.
As mentioned above NZ Airporints members can get any seat availiable for purchase on any flight. Join the AirNZ programme and enjoy the ability to get seats (but no Elite access to E+ on UA).

WLGNZ Really shocking that you think that using award tickets is a “free ride”. It is exactly this mentality that makes airlines think they can get away with it. It is not a privilege to “snag” an award seat. It is the whole objective of loyalty and partner programs. Don’t be fooled for a moment. The airline make beaucoup bucks on their FF programs because of passengers who spend thousands of dollars on the airline and its partners (partners who pay the the airline lotsa $$$ for miles)… and then the airlines have the audacity to turn around and not offer seats to pax with miles.

Nice post, kangela. While as many have pointed out, the OP's post contained some, er, creative interpretations of reality, it does raise a valid point which is that it's not unreasonable to expect that FF miles are awarded as part of the entire package that your airfare buys you, and they are done so with the expectation that they can (with reasonable planning etc) be used. The fact that an airline could profitably sell those seats is not in itself justification for not offering some as redemption seats. UA's starnet filtering is a whole other issue, I know, but NZ's lack of award seats on the transpac routes is something that frustrates me as well.

kangela and mad_atta appreciate your input. I think the bottom line is that until Star Alliance, OneWorld and SkyTeam decide to “Police” award availability and sanction airlines for not releasing award seats on any flight on any given day, clearly any airline can choose to do what they want with award seat availability. I have never for a moment believed (or ever had to believe) that an award ticket is a “free” ticket and that it is a privilege to fly on an award ticket. I do believe however, that not releasing seats on any given flight –irrespective of whether the flight will ultimately go full of revenue paying passengers – creates artificial blackout dates and devalues the FF program.

Once again, thanks for everyone’s suggestions.

I'm in NZ right now on a XC award and I'm riding in C for all segments with C seats, both UA and NZ.

In the last 6 months I've booked XC awards to CHC, RAR, CNS with all long segments confirmed in XC. I had to be flexible by a day or two, and didn't try to do something silly like book a XC award for New Years Eve in Sydney or during peak XMas holiday.

I use ANA's tool to search for availability. If ANA says its there I've been able to get the seat with UA miles EVERY TIME ... atleast as far as NZ seats. I don't always get every seat confirmed initially and usually have to call back for UA or NZ segments as they open up. The sweet spot seems to be 2-3 months out ... I have NOT had success with end of schedule seat availability for NZ seats.

cavemanzk I have no clue what you mean. I don't think mileage availability is necessarily any better for AirPoints members versus any other Star Alliance program member. Maybe in certain cases but mostly it is First Come First Serve for anyone using AirPoints or Partners. What does this have to do with the thread... the whole purpose of the Alliance and the Partner system is to use miles from one program on any other airline in the Alliance etc.

You do realise that members on NZ Airpoints can get any seat on any NZ flight? It's this fact (plus as cavemanzk pointed out that I get instant service from NZ whenever I call or email them) that gives me no qualms about paying a joining fee or annual membership renewal fee (even though I haven't actually needed to ever pay a renewal fee...but that's beside the point).

You might be having a problem with the lack of awards available to you but there are several reasons for this which have nothing to do with NZ being unfair or greedy:

1. As I understand it United have to pay NZ for reward seats (and vice versa) and this could be a case of United not wishing to pay NZ for these awards then blaming NZ for not releasing seats.

2. trooper pointed out that UA "filters" awards from other airlines within the Star Alliance. So NZ may have indeed released award seats for this flight to the Star Alliance but UA is not allowing you to book them.

3. UA does exactly the same thing to other Star Alliance members. See info on Starnet.

4. The idea behind an award bookings is flexibility. All members of every FF program know that they cannot expect rewards to be available on the exact dates they want them and they must be flexible. This has been an issue since the inception of FF programs. If I want a classic award from QF or a *A award from NZ I know that I have to be flexible with my dates. If I'm not flexible then that is not that fault of the FF program but mine.

5. Because of the fact that NZ rewards are very popular for MP members, UA might be restricting these coveted awards to its elite members. I have no idea whether they would indeed do this or whether it's first in first served, but it certainly is food for thought.

We are not trying to gang up on you bosyboy73, even if it seems not many on this board are on your side ;). But that fact of the matter is you can't come onto an NZ board and bag NZ for being unfair and not releasing award seats. There is an underlying assumption (whether intentional or not) from your posts that you assume UA, or any other member of the *A, do not employ the same tactics and are egalitarian and fair to all *A members. When in fact those airlines employ the same tactics as NZ, if in fact NZ is employing these tactics and the problem does not stem from UA. This assumption is possibly why there was such a "defend NZ" reaction.

I am interested in finding the outcome of why you are unable to obtain reward seats on that particular flight and wish you well in sorting out a suitable itinerary for your trip :)

You can book a complete itinerary and then pay a change fee for the return when the other half open up.

If the airline won't release inventory for the exact flights that you must take, perhaps you could consider buying them.

I am not a "frequent flyer" on any airline, and therefore I apologize if this has turned into one but it was NOT my intention to make this an ANZ vs. UA or ANZ vs. DL discussion. I do not earn miles by flying. I only fly to redeem miles. 99.9% of my miles come from partner activity (financial, car rental etc.).


Then with all due respect you are someone with very little right to access these seats.

Air NZ has made it very difficult for people to accumulate its own frequent flyer points via credit cards etc because people in your sort of situation were basically making it extremely hard for their most loyal passengers to obtain award seats. I have hundreds of thousands of AMEX Membership Reward points I can no longer redeem, but I'm happy because I know that as an Air NZ Gold Elite frequent flyer I can access award inventory using points and status earned by flying Air NZ on virtually any flight which people in your situation can't.

4. The idea behind an award bookings is flexibility. All members of every FF program know that they cannot expect rewards to be available on the exact dates they want them and they must be flexible. This has been an issue since the inception of FF programs. If I want a classic award from QF or a *A award from NZ I know that I have to be flexible with my dates. If I'm not flexible then that is not that fault of the FF program but mine.
Wow, even ignoring award bookings I often have to be flexible with revenue bookings! I am currently waitlisted on a full Y SQ fare SIN-AKL-SIN for Christmas. The flight is zeroed out in every class, and has been for the last month.

I've always had to be very flexible for the occasional award booking I have made (through NZ/UA/QF on a few airlines). It's certainly not unique to NZ.

I must say that I mostly agree with bosboy73's grievance. It is immaterial and irrelevant whether one is a frequent flyer or not in this case. Those whom I have chosen to spend big bucks with have given me FF miles/points to be used to get my loyalty/spending reward. They have spent the money to get those FF miles/points. I (and they) would have a strong expectation that I can get the reward I desire. But res ipsa loquitur.

That the airlines have a frequent flyer program to entice patronage is another matter. And that some of us shrug our shoulders over the difficulty in getting an award seat and congratulate ourselves when we have done so is capitulating to the airlines. Again another matter.

I called back and spoke to the UA Mileage Plus desk about ANZ's baloney. I was quite surprised when they told me that I was not the only one and there were many pax frustrated with and had complained about this situation. In fact, United was apparently on the way to lodging a formal complaint with ANZ about this.

Oh please. Like UA would complaint about NZ's award inventory that they would not like to book in the first place because it would incur a monetary flow from UA to NZ.

I'm in NZ right now on a XC award and I'm riding in C for all segments with C seats, both UA and NZ.

In the last 6 months I've booked XC awards to CHC, RAR, CNS with all long segments confirmed in XC. I had to be flexible by a day or two, and didn't try to do something silly like book a XC award for New Years Eve in Sydney or during peak XMas holiday.

XC only refers to UA's award inventory on UA not on *A partners. C awards book into I on most *A carriers.

Wonder what you are trying to imply by XC awards????

XC only refers to UA's award inventory on UA not on *A partners. C awards book into I on most *A carriers.

Wonder what you are trying to imply by XC awards????

Awards using UA miles that include C seats are IMPOSSIBLE.

Don't even try.

It works like this.

You goto www.airnz.co.nz , use the normal flight booking form on the page select the flight you want. Then at payment options you pick AirPoints. The this fare is taken from the normal fare classes e.g Y.

An Example Of First Flight AKL-WLG tomorrow morning.

AKL-WLG NZ401 DPT 6.15AM ARV 7.15AM TUE 7 OCT 09 B733 MEAL:NONE

Going rate is $261 or 261 AirPoints

If i had of booked this flight 3 Months ago i would be paying about $60 or 60 AirPoints.

Awards using UA miles that include C seats are IMPOSSIBLE.

Don't even try.

I agree. (Then you'll handily leave C award seats for the rest of us).

I can understand the frustration of the OP. And I think it's fair enough that you guys want to protect your favourite airline, however, I don't think this problem is a) new and b) restricted to UA awards. I have exactly the same problem getting award seats in C or even Y on AKL-US using LH miles and they are not restricting any awards AFAIK. But even worse, there is not even Y awards on SYD-AKL for next July (that is 10 months ahead of time) where they have 5 flights a day! Now that I would call black-out dates for sure.

However, as we all know it's getting more and more difficult to even purchase discount C tickets (in D or let alone Z class) these days from airlines. And in the past when there were no Y awards on NZ SYD-AKL you could also generally not buy any cheap tickets for these dates. But this has changed dramatically recently.

Just do a dummy booking AKL-SYD for say next week or in 4 months or in 10 months. Now even on days when you can buy a cheap ticket for $128 one way, NZ will not release a single award seat in Y! It's really getting frustrating.

So, c'mon NZ, give us a break and offer award seats on flights where you are selling cheap tickets and you actually get customers to fill those flights plus you get some revenue from the other FF parter for the redemption!

Reasons for AKL-SYD being so cheap not far out. Is that there is currently a price war on this route. Therefore airlines have dropped fares to try get more pax doesn't mean these fare are profitable. Just 2 months ago AKL-SYD was around $300OW. Also less pax mean more freight space which means profits.
AKL-SYD is served by

NZ 5/6 times daily (320,763,777)
QF 5 times daily (763)
LA Daily (343)
AR 3 times a week (342)
EK Daily (773)(380 From 1Feb)
DJ 9 times a week.

I agree. (Then you'll handily leave C award seats for the rest of us).

Exactly .... :)

[QUOTE=cavemanzk;10480690]Reasons for AKL-SYD being so cheap not far out. Is that there is currently a price war on this route. Therefore airlines have dropped fares to try get more pax doesn't mean these fare are profitable. QUOTE]

Well, then look at AKL-SYD in July 2009. Prices for some flights are still only A$128 but there is not a single award seat in Y available.

What I meant to say is that the pattern has changed. Previously when there was no Y award seat on that route the prices for tickets were also high and you could not book any G, K class like tickets (only T class and higher). In this case both award customers and paid customers were out of luck getting a cheap/"free" seat. But now this has changed and even though the flight are obviously not full, there are not Y award seats.

Heck, the quick search I've done on AKL-SYD picking random dates for October, April and July next year has not revealed a single Y award seat. Now that to me is just plain wrong and goes against the no-blackout idea of awards. Or, and this might be easy to fix, it's a glitch in the NZ award system that can easiliy be corrected by NZ. Now, I do hope it's the latter...

What tool are you using to search? ANA tool has been having some issues lately.

I'm just staggered that anyone could seriously disparage Air New Zealand for supposedly failing to live up to the standards of a third-rate airline like United.

LOL

What tool are you using to search? ANA tool has been having some issues lately.

Yes, I'm always using ANA tool and so far it has always been what e.g. LH could see or couldn't see. It's not that I can't see any awards on NZ, there is good C award on SYD-AKl on the 767s and I can see the odd seat on AKL-NRT and AKL-PVG (nothing on AKL-HKG or AKL-LAX though).

Are you saying there are route specific issues with the ANA tool?

July 2009 is school and university holidays. How about earlier in 2009?

I did not want to wade into this debate but a question.
For those quoting "no black out dates" where does this rule come from?
Is it a *A rule or is it NZ or another airline specific rule? If so does it extend the guarantee to partner airlines (which I seriously doubt)?

July 2009 is school and university holidays. How about earlier in 2009?

Yes, yes, I know this always comes up :p That's why I looked e.g. this month, and also in May next year (I did find some seats in March next year by the way, so it's not that Y awards on this route are not visible on ANA tool). The fact that it is school holidays doesn't really matter because they are selling cheap tickets for this period. So, why don't they also release award seats then? Previously, the rule was if there were no cheap tickets, there were also no award seats but now there are just no award seats even if cheap tickets are sold.

The fact that it is school holidays doesn't really matter because they are selling cheap tickets for this period. So, why don't they also release award seats then?

Being school holidays yield management will know that they will sell a lot of revenue tickets closer to the time so don't release awards for that period. The tickets are cheap at the moment because the lowest fares are still available.

Being school holidays yield management will know that they will sell a lot of revenue tickets closer to the time so don't release awards for that period. The tickets are cheap at the moment because the lowest fares are still available.

Yip i agree with this no way NZ is going to release reward seats during the school hoildays often flights in this period operate at 100% so why not sell everyseat rather then give them to other Airlines FF.

1. As I understand it United have to pay NZ for reward seats (and vice versa) and this could be a case of United not wishing to pay NZ for these awards then blaming NZ for not releasing seats.

4. The idea behind an award bookings is flexibility. All members of every FF program know that they cannot expect rewards to be available on the exact dates they want them and they must be flexible. This has been an issue since the inception of FF programs. If I want a classic award from QF or a *A award from NZ I know that I have to be flexible with my dates. If I'm not flexible then that is not that fault of the FF program but mine.

5. Because of the fact that NZ rewards are very popular for MP members, UA might be restricting these coveted awards to its elite members. I have no idea whether they would indeed do this or whether it's first in first served, but it certainly is food for thought.

I am interested in finding the outcome of why you are unable to obtain reward seats on that particular flight and wish you well in sorting out a suitable itinerary for your trip :)

Thanks NZ_Flyer... responses to your comments...

#1. Not really. Business is available AKL-APW for all dates in August. Based on your logic, that would be backwards. The lower mileage awards should be much more easily available because I am sure UA pays NZ more for a business class award ticket than for an Economy award ticket. Hope I make sense ;)

#4. I'm not sure how feasible it is to be flexible. When I am flying on just one award ticket (with a stopover) from the States to Australia and flying back via Samoa, how do you expect me to have much flexibility? I don't have unlimited vacation and if the others flights are available for miles and the AKL-Islands flights are "blacked out" for a week at a time, then it isn't feasible to be flexible. What should I do - wait in Australia until seats are released (if ever)?!

#5. The AKL-APW economy awards are not available in August (or only very limited days) - and based on other responses on this thread, this is clearly not a UA issue. Seems like no other airline's FF members are having too much luck.

Again, it is not my desire to compare and contrast airlines. No airline I've flown has been impeccable. So this is NOT an ANZ vs. UA issue or something like that. This is just about ANZ.

Unsurprisingly, there are several other people on this thread who have experienced the same issue that I have raised. I respect those who support ANZ and in my opinion ANZ's service is better than average... inflight experience and punctuality are both quite good. But the holdback of award inventory is an unpleasant reality for those who fly on their personal time (as opposed to for work) and need to use miles.

I did not want to wade into this debate but a question.
For those quoting "no black out dates" where does this rule come from?
Is it a *A rule or is it NZ or another airline specific rule? If so does it extend the guarantee to partner airlines (which I seriously doubt)?

There is no rule. Many people of course wish this rule exists.

I think you should join one of those CC schemes where you can use your points on any airline.
To be honest I don't think the airlines care about your business....so maybe you should find another way to get your plane tickets.

I fly 100,000's of miles every year and I can never find three tickets for my family in Business. How is my loyalty to UA rewarded?

As a matter of fact I am looking for 3 tickets right now. Searching in November the only seats I can find are in Y. I will be on my way home from a RTW trip so it would be nice for them to meet me in London on the 13th.
Good luck