MilesBuzz! - Mileage is b.s. why bother?

I booked a great trip months in advance using Delta frequent flyer miles. When the night came to fly out, the flight was delayed 4-1/2 hours for questionable reasons - they said ATC, as another aircraft was delayed at our gate and then the aircraft we were to fly out was supposedly caught in traffic on the tarmac. The long delay left me in a pickle because I was going to miss a connection at the destination which I absolutely could not miss if I was to make use of it at all and I (among about 10 others in a similar situation on the flight) had to ask to be switched to fly out on another day. We were all told there was room on every flight over the next week, but I was told there was no room for me because my ticket was acquired through frequent flyer miles. The Global Sales desk refused to make room for me, even though there were empty seats on the flights I requested and merely offered a connection that would go a day later and divert me through a connecting city miles in the wrong direction. I nearly cancelled the whole trip, but on my way out of the gate area with only this other flight option, I mentioned my story to the supervisor in the vicinity and he told me to wait as he would use his influence. In one minute, his word was good enough to overrule everyone and I got on the flight I wanted. Had I not bumped into him and muttered my story, I would have been left miserable after a 7 hour ordeal at the airport.

Cancelling the trip would have entailed re-banking the miles for a fee and then using ten or twenty thousand more miles for the same trip trip in the future, plus possibly having to pay cash in addition.

I had the good fortune of using frequent flyer points on more than one trip, but those trips were more than 10 years ago. Things have changed drastically now and, unless you have a great deal of flexibility, you can be up the creek very easily. The lesson I have learned is that frequent flyer seats are hardly worth the struggle of accumulating the points. The airlines entice us with partner deals and bonuses, but the seats are so tightly allotted that one can be made miserable for simply hoping to use them. I will not go one inch out of my way to accumulate points in the future. I will find credit cards that give cash back instead.

I booked a great trip months in advance using Delta frequent flyer miles. When the night came to fly out, the flight was delayed 4-1/2 hours for questionable reasons - they said ATC, as another aircraft was delayed at our gate and then the aircraft we were to fly out was supposedly caught in traffic on the tarmac. The long delay left me in a pickle because I was going to miss a connection at the destination which I absolutely could not miss if I was to make use of it at all and I (among about 10 others in a similar situation on the flight) had to ask to be switched to fly out on another day. We were all told there was room on every flight over the next week, but I was told there was no room for me because my ticket was acquired through frequent flyer miles. The Global Sales desk refused to make room for me, even though there were empty seats on the flights I requested and merely offered a connection that would go a day later and divert me through a connecting city miles in the wrong direction. I nearly cancelled the whole trip, but on my way out of the gate area with only this other flight option, I mentioned my story to the supervisor in the vicinity and he told me to wait as he would use his influence. In one minute, his word was good enough to overrule everyone and I got on the flight I wanted. Had I not bumped into him and muttered my story, I would have been left miserable after a 7 hour ordeal at the airport.

Cancelling the trip would have entailed re-banking the miles for a fee and then using ten or twenty thousand more miles for the same trip trip in the future, plus possibly having to pay cash in addition.

I had the good fortune of using frequent flyer points on more than one trip, but those trips were more than 10 years ago. Things have changed drastically now and, unless you have a great deal of flexibility, you can be up the creek very easily. The lesson I have learned is that frequent flyer seats are hardly worth the struggle of accumulating the points. The airlines entice us with partner deals and bonuses, but the seats are so tightly allotted that one can be made miserable for simply hoping to use them. I will not go one inch out of my way to accumulate points in the future. I will find credit cards that give cash back instead.

Interesting observations......mine have been a bit different. I just obtained a $10,000 US Business Class ticket (had I purchased) for 110,000 FF miles. I will readily admit it was not wthout hassles...but I did succeed. It is getting a lot harder to execute the mileage transaction....especially when dealing with foreign CS people (India, Philippines, etc.) and US based CS persons who hate their job.

(thanks to this site and others....the mileage was fairly easy to accrue....credit card offers, bonus miles, etc.)

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e lesson I have learned is that frequent flyer seats are hardly worth the struggle of accumulating the points. The airlines entice us with partner deals QUOTE]

To what 'struggle' are you referring? I have never 'struggled' accumulating FF miles.

Things have changed drastically now and, unless you have a great deal of flexibility, you can be up the creek very easily. The lesson I have learned is that frequent flyer seats are hardly worth the struggle of accumulating the points. The airlines entice us with partner deals and bonuses, but the seats are so tightly allotted that one can be made miserable for simply hoping to use them. I will not go one inch out of my way to accumulate points in the future. I will find credit cards that give cash back instead.

Figured that out all by yourself, did you? :rolleyes:

Welcome to the new airline way of flying with attempting to use frequent flyer mileage as payment without a stack of cash as well....:rolleyes:

As for "cashback" for using such and such a credit card... DUH... you better look at that interest rate on the card and see IF it's indeed such a bargain.

Better to put a few bucks into a penny stock or spend a little playing the horses or currency market... you'll get a far better return, or at least more satisfaction with the rate of return than the few pennies back on the dollars you spent using plastic.

Try bargaining with the vendor paying CASH. Remember whatever you buy with plastic the vendor HAS to pay 3 to 6 percent to ACCEPT your card(s)...
plus the hassle of processing the transaction slips and waiting for the deposit to show in their business accounts etc and banking fees for their commercial accounts....so if you can bargain with them using CASH for a 2 or 5%
you're far berter off, and REAL money ahead, especially if its a LARGE purchase.

Who would want to say 50 or 60 dollars on a $1,000 purchase versus only $10? It's NOT rocket scientist what's going on with the TRUE cost of credit and plastic for everything.

That $10 you get back is part of what YOU put into it. BANKS do NOT give anything FREE as gifts. LEARN THAT TRUTH.

I do not know what tiny hooky merchants you deal with but Visas top percentage is something like 2.7%, no large merchant pays anything like that and big ones pay something like 1.1% +12 cents or less.

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e lesson I have learned is that frequent flyer seats are hardly worth the struggle of accumulating the points. The airlines entice us with partner deals QUOTE]

To what 'struggle' are you referring? I have never 'struggled' accumulating FF miles.

one example of struggle would be if you had say, accumulated 49,999 miles on an airline that required 50k to fly to X. You have to wait 4-6 weeks or more for some partner mileage entities to post and most of the time, airlines will not front you a single mile (AA has been know to do this, thankfully) so you need to BUY them! Imagine paying for the min. 1000 miles just to get 1. Would be rather frustrating.

I believe that once a ticket is obtained, it should be considered as valid as any other ticket in its seating class weather it was purchased using cash or miles. This is what would be fair but airlines have found ways to disallow this.

That's what caused the OP's problem.

On the other hand, I find most any flight that gets delayed is riddled with controversy and corruption. Best bet: avoid connections whenever possible and if you have them, make those places part of your trip if you can.

for mile gain and use, I find the easiest thing is to order citibank mastercards for AA miles. You can still legally churn with them and have enough to fly first class in a couple months if you play it right. This may help aleviate some of the issues. Not that I want to pay extra miles to fly, but if I am going to, I will at least use them to sit up front.

:)MM

When it goes smoothly I think it is a great bargain, but if there is any sort of issue at all, it becomes a MASSIVE headache.

I have used miles to obtain at least 25 international business tickets and never had a problem. I certainly could never afforded them otherwise. Sure it requires some effort and some mr's. For me it is worth it. For others if it is too much of a bother, don't do it.

I booked a great trip months in advance using Delta frequent flyer miles. When the night came to fly out, the flight was delayed 4-1/2 hours for questionable reasons - they said ATC, as another aircraft was delayed at our gate and then the aircraft we were to fly out was supposedly caught in traffic on the tarmac. The long delay left me in a pickle because I was going to miss a connection at the destination which I absolutely could not miss if I was to make use of it at all and I (among about 10 others in a similar situation on the flight) had to ask to be switched to fly out on another day. We were all told there was room on every flight over the next week, but I was told there was no room for me because my ticket was acquired through frequent flyer miles.

There's a lot of missing information here that would be needed in order to really understand what happened. Was the "connection at the destination" to another award flight on the same reservation? By "destination" do you mean the destination of this first segment that was late, or the final connecting destination of your ticket?

Based on your description so far, what it sounds like to me is that you voluntarily chose not to board your ticketed first segment once you determined that was going to be late. Unfortunately, this does put you in a position where you need award inventory for any rebookings, the same as if you just decided to move your trip back a day for other reasons.

Had you been a displaced passenger, such as if your original flight had been canceled or you took the first flight and missed a connection on the same reservation, then they would have accommodated you on a standby basis on any available flight without regard to award inventory.

I agree with your title, the perks are not what they used to be and the thresholds are ridiculous . Airlines should allow you to use miles/point like currency to offset the cost whenever you want like cell phone carriers have done with minutes. It comes back to them as revenue as anyway, which is why I think charging for redemption is ridiculous.

I realize YMMV but first, I was able to book 6 tickets for 30,000 each rt JFK/SJU for thanksgiving week on AA. Then, I was able to book 2 tickets for 60,000 each on Delta for the same dates.
When I needed one more ticket on AA, it was 60,000 and I had to transfer from Starwood. AA gave me a two day extension to allow the miles to transfer. In all I got 9 free tickets so I cannot complain. Whatever may change for the future, in the past I have flown several times in first to Hawaii.
as well as many other places and I am grateful for having been able to do that.
While disappointment surely lies ahead, the airlines are in much trouble and I have to accept they need to do what they have to to survive.

I do not know what tiny hooky merchants you deal with but Visas top percentage is something like 2.7%, no large merchant pays anything like that and big ones pay something like 1.1% +12 cents or less.
Retailers often make less than 5% return on sales. Some as low as 2%. In that light, the percentages you are talking about are actually a lot, even at the low end of you quote.

Its not a coincidence that the credit card companies have been investigated for fraud and restrain of trade.

As for miles, these days IMO they are only worth the time if you are accumulating them with someone else's money - i.e. expensing the underlying travel bill.

Zephyrus: So sorry you had such a negative experience but by taking your plight to a higher level, it was resolved in a positive fashion. Just goes to show what everyone on FT has learned, either here from others or the hard way like you: don't take "NO" from someone who can't say "YES"! (I believe that quote is attributable to Peter Greenberg). Me, I love to fly and getting miles & status makes it more fun 'cuz I usually get to go 1st class & often fly for free. In these crazy days of higher fares, extra fees, reduced routes, full flights, etc., being both proactive & having status can make the difference between a fairly good or great experience to one that is just plain awful. Hope your future airline encounters are better & good luck switching cards!

I was not debating retailers margins, I am debating the false numbers thrown about by another poster.

Well, I don't pay as much attention as I used to and I believe that miles are practically worth less due to the changes taking place.......but I bother because its free and there have been times that I've been able to use miles and save myself money.

I do take more trips today that don't accumulate miles due to either being a LCC or an airline that I only fly once a year type of thing. But I also still take a decent amount of trips on AA and accumulate the miles that I can and use them when I can. And why wouldn't I, it doesn't take a great deal of effort to enter a FF# when you make a reservation.

I had 75,000 AA miles that I was able to book my freind to fly to africa. This was last month and on the way home it connected thru LHR, where she was able to stay in the trip at no extra cost. The taxes on this entire trip were about $100.

In return for booking this for her, she gave me points that will effectively enable my wife and 2 children and I to enjoy 6 days in Aruba at a hotel we could otherwise have not afforded.

All of this cost only some time and administration on both our parts, but really not much. Plus we enjoy the game!

This is where miles work.

Her plane tickets would have cost A LOT of money--ie, around $2,000 RT because of the destinations and time of year for travel.

On the other hand, when I am trying to grab some extra miles from doing partner transactions such as the WorldPerks mall and the miles fail to post, or some ticket needs to be booked before a certain date and I need to pay extra miles and money because the account was short, this gets a bit frustrating. Or, when United makes you be in the airport just to REDEEM a ticket for someone else if you try to book an award for them using a partner airline... Such policy cruches and glitches make it harder. In the end, though, I have won much more than I have lost.

The key to mile-ing is: It is a bit of a hobby and a challenge, and it is done because you like to travel and try to save money.

As said earlier, if those things are outweighed by one's inability to tolerate the game, it's not for you.

:)MM

The original poster seems more upset that he was being treated differently because he was on an award ticket. Frankly, if his award ticket included the connecting flight, there is no reason he should have been denied the re-routing when seats were available and others in the same situation (on paid tickets) were re-routed. Interesting that this was on DL as I've noticed a number of posts on the DL forum that relate similar failures by DL to re-book ticketed award flights following schedule changes, flight delays, or cancellations. I was always under the impression that once booked, airlines treated award tickets like any other ticket when things occurred that are outside the traveler's control. It's disconcerting that DL appears to be moving away from that. Requiring award seats to be available to re-route someone on an award ticket when there are delays/cancellations seems ridiculous and could easily lead one to be stranded.

MileKing, is this even legal? I'm worried because I've used WorldPerks recently to book a large number of award tickets, many of them all or part on Delta metal. I understand that the airline isn't responsible for weather/ATC delays and can't buy my hotel or lunch. However, I do expect the airline to get me where I'm going as the planes/seats become available. If you can just refuse to rebook someone's award travel, yes, you are not just stranding them, you can in effect steal from them. This can't be correct, is it?

The original poster seems more upset that he was being treated differently because he was on an award ticket. Frankly, if his award ticket included the connecting flight, there is no reason he should have been denied the re-routing when seats were available and others in the same situation (on paid tickets) were re-routed. Interesting that this was on DL as I've noticed a number of posts on the DL forum that relate similar failures by DL to re-book ticketed award flights following schedule changes, flight delays, or cancellations. I was always under the impression that once booked, airlines treated award tickets like any other ticket when things occurred that are outside the traveler's control. It's disconcerting that DL appears to be moving away from that. Requiring award seats to be available to re-route someone on an award ticket when there are delays/cancellations seems ridiculous and could easily lead one to be stranded.

MileKing, is this even legal? I'm worried because I've used WorldPerks recently to book a large number of award tickets, many of them all or part on Delta metal. I understand that the airline isn't responsible for weather/ATC delays and can't buy my hotel or lunch. However, I do expect the airline to get me where I'm going as the planes/seats become available. If you can just refuse to rebook someone's award travel, yes, you are not just stranding them, you can in effect steal from them. This can't be correct, is it?

I did not mean to imply that there is a DL rule or policy that states award seats need to be available to re-route someone traveling on an award ticket when there is a flight delay or cancellation. I know of no such policy and only meant to point out that these situations, in my view, seem to be coming up more and more frequently in the DL forum. People have also reported that they are meeting with increased resistance from DL to put people on flights with no award seats when prior to departure there are significant schedule changes to an award booking.

I'm not sure if the DOT has a regulation reguarding the draconian changes to FF programs. There certainly is a transportation contract between the FF Pax and the airline should not depend on if that person paid any money for that contract or not. Usually, there has to be some value for FF miles. Assuming the traditional "coupon from the newspaper" rate of 1/20 of a cent, a sum total of 2000 miles is equal to 1 USD so any DOT regulation should apply across the board, FF pax or not.

My 2 cents on the subject. FF miles are becoming more worthless every day. Most go unredeemed (78% is the consensus number) and the rampant inflation of mile reward levels ensures that fewer of them are redeemed for flights. I have given up on milage redemption and just decided to use hotel points instead to save money when traveling. I got some nice hotel redemption deals when I was in Europe 3 years ago and they are even better now that USD is pegged where it belongs given our national debt. USD will depreciate even more now that Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac have the keys to the treasury and allowed unlimited debt loads. Hotel points do have their own inflation but longer trips will necessitate more money to be spent on hotels than the flight there. Also, some hotel chains discount longer stay redemptions (or at least they did the last time I redeemed points). Airlines do not.

I am concerned about this Delta thing mentioned above.

It is as if the new flight that the OP would be put on was not one that had any award seats left on it so some idiot decided to use that as a way to conform to policy in a case where what had happened should have obviously overridden any such rules. ie, if you try to book an award ticket on a plane that has no more awards available, you cannot get that flight so you must pick another. If the flight you are on gets in trouble and they try to put you on one of those non-award seat flights, that should STILL not be your problem.

I am scared that somehow some way this snafu--if it did in fact happen the way I am guessing--will continue. (I have no idea what happened of course)
This is precisely why there needs to be a passenger bill of rights. And it needs to cover such minutia.

I am concerned about this Delta thing mentioned above.

It is as if the new flight that the OP would be put on was not one that had any award seats left on it so some idiot decided to use that as a way to conform to policy in a case where what had happened should have obviously overridden any such rules. ie, if you try to book an award ticket on a plane that has no more awards available, you cannot get that flight so you must pick another. If the flight you are on gets in trouble and they try to put you on one of those non-award seat flights, that should STILL not be your problem.

I am scared that somehow some way this snafu--if it did in fact happen the way I am guessing--will continue. (I have no idea what happened of course)
This is precisely why there needs to be a passenger bill of rights. And it needs to cover such minutia.

I can concur on what has been said about Delta in the above posts. I had two very similar situations, one involving Delta and the other AA. Both situations required a supervisor. I could see that the Delta employee was keyed towards not resolving the issue as it was an award ticket. The AA person felt that the situation was not good and took care of the problem even though it was also an award ticket. The words "award ticket" did not come into the conversation with the AA employee. The words "award ticket" were noted at least 12 times in the Delta conversation. I have a small amount of miles in my Delata account....I am done with Delta unless they are the only way out!!

what words or things should we ask delta to prepare ourselves for when booking awards with them going forward?

what were the conditions of your situation? was it a matter of them not wanting to give you a seat because you were a lowly award, or because awards somehow get lower priority in the minds of those at the gates, or because plane 2 was slated with no seats available for your type of--or any type of awards, and so they merely couldnt figure out how to key it in to make a stuck person fit in that otherwise never would have been there standing before them to pose such a problem?

I was thinking, for example...

"hey delta, i just booked this itin with 25k miles that connects thru slc. let's say it gets delayed and I need to take another DL plane out to make my other DL connection. Does this award prevent that?"

if they say "no, that wont be a problem," I will get a name and employee ID to have with me in the airport.

Is this a DL specific thing? I certainly have not suffered from a, "You're on an award ticket so no help for you!!" attitude at UA (and they aren't exactly considered benevolent masters either).

That said, it's sad that the airlines don't treat award pax with extra care as the award pax is the one being rewarded for his loyalty to the carrier and should be recognized as such.

Is this a DL specific thing? I certainly have not suffered from a, "You're on an award ticket so no help for you!!" attitude at UA (and they aren't exactly considered benevolent masters either).

That said, it's sad that the airlines don't treat award pax with extra care as the award pax is the one being rewarded for his loyalty to the carrier and should be recognized as such.

ya, 'cept their attitude (all us carriers) has always been,

"Hey! We gave you something for FREE! Why would you EVER complain about any of it!?!?!?! GEESH!, Some people!"

On further consideration I think that a "mileage is b.s" attitude seems just an unsophisticated take on what is really just a game in which the rules are changing. While most of us might bemoan the fact, we're not ready to quit the game; we'll just learn today's rules and work with them.

I just obtained a $10,000 US Business Class ticket (had I purchased) for 110,000 FF miles.

Standard thinking is miles are worth 1 or 2 cents each. Your redemption is 9.09 cents per mile. I just burned up miles for the exchange rate of 10.3 cents per mile. Anyone here remember what the maximum rate per mile anyone has mentioned getting for their "b.s." miles?

when the rules to a game change the better players adapt and overtake the ones that are unable or unwilling

I miss $99 RT's from AUS-DAL (ez miles) but AA pulled the route. It's going to cost $50 more to upgrade TATL/TPAC with miles. Cost effective mileage runs are getting harder to come by. I'm not leaving this game, but rather intend to figure out how to continue scoring and even improve the payback.

I like having elite status and hope to exchange the miles for something I'd never pay out of pocket: travel from US to AU in biz/1st. Both will require some gamesmanship and adaptation as the rules change. It's worth it to me.

As for "cashback" for using such and such a credit card... DUH... you better look at that interest rate on the card and see IF it's indeed such a bargain.

I get 1% cash back on my primary card (I have a Starwood as a second one). I have no idea what the interest rate is -- if you pay your balance in full each month, you never get charged interest. Paying credit card interest rates is never a good fiscal decision.

Remember whatever you buy with plastic the vendor HAS to pay 3 to 6 percent to ACCEPT your card(s).

As another poster said, the norm is far lower than this. The only case where the costs might fall in this range would be a small vendor accepting Amex (which has the highest transaction costs).

Standard thinking is miles are worth 1 or 2 cents each. Your redemption is 9.09 cents per mile. I just burned up miles for the exchange rate of 10.3 cents per mile. Anyone here remember what the maximum rate per mile anyone has mentioned getting for their "b.s." miles?I recall a couple of years ago when I paid for two cheap "B" tickets on US and upgraded them with miles. Of course, we also earned miles for the flight. At the time, using published fare numbers, I figured I was getting about 13 cents/mile value.

Total BS.

Uh-huh.

On further consideration I think that a "mileage is b.s" attitude seems just an unsophisticated take on what is really just a game in which the rules are changing. While most of us might bemoan the fact, we're not ready to quit the game; we'll just learn today's rules and work with them.

I agree in part. Sometimes if we do this, the companies that make/change all these rules seem to know what we will put up with so they make it tougher. That's why it's good to still complain and keep them from pushing it all too far. Afterall some of the new rules of mileage use ARE a bit screwball.

... it's good to still complain and keep them from pushing it all too far. Afterall some of the new rules of mileage use ARE a bit screwball.Agreed.

I've been known to do my share of complaining.

Sure the rules are screwball, but sometimes that increases opportunity. Example (though not a new rule), I think it's crazy for UA to require the same number of miles to upgrade IAD-DEN as it does IAD-HNL, so I upgrade IAD-HNL with miles and IAD-DEN with 500 milers.

yup, and how a non saver mileage award on a certain AA flight I wanted was normally 35k and is now 60k to fly economy, but the business class awards that are also still available are ALSO 60k. And so why not just fly BIZ? :D

On further consideration I think that a "mileage is b.s" attitude seems just an unsophisticated take on what is really just a game in which the rules are changing. While most of us might bemoan the fact, we're not ready to quit the game; we'll just learn today's rules and work with them.

Well said. Last I checked, loyalty programs are voluntary. Rules change. Notice is given. We adapt. Accumulating miles via some partner offers is no doubt foolish given the premiums sometimes paid for goods or services just to earn miles. However, miles earned on credit card charges for purchases that would have been made even without the benefit of miles remains a nice perk. I have made numerous first class trips with my wife on miles primarily earned via the AMEX Skymiles card we use for most non-payroll business expenses. Sure its not as easy as it once was to find seats on flights with the desired times, but let's not forget: IT ESSENTIALLY IS A FREE FLIGHT. Some should try keeping it in perspective.

Well said. Last I checked, loyalty programs are voluntary. Rules change. Notice is given. We adapt. Accumulating miles via some partner offers is no doubt foolish given the premiums sometimes paid for goods or services just to earn miles. However, miles earned on credit card charges for purchases that would have been made even without the benefit of miles remains a nice perk. I have made numerous first class trips with my wife on miles primarily earned via the AMEX Skymiles card we use for most non-payroll business expenses. Sure its not as easy as it once was to find seats on flights with the desired times, but let's not forget: IT ESSENTIALLY IS A FREE FLIGHT. Some should try keeping it in perspective.

kinda don't agree:

1) yeah we signed up so we have to play by rules, but some change in ways that are beyond the norm for pretty much every other entity out there and we all know it. I know, I know, WE signed up for the programs, but still, I have strong belief --and some actual proof based on many many past dealings--that most mileage programs are akin to the common rebate scam. They don't always follow thru with what you did in terms of activity as promised at the time of action. When you call them on it, they have few or no facilities to deal with this type of problem. Think about it: You essentially paid them--ie, you signed up in their marketing database, which is numbers to them, and money to the investors. Your willingness to do that is a service you provided for them. In return they are supposed to give you the widget they advertised. But they failed to do for you what they promised YOU on the condition that you sign up! Why shouldnt we be upset about that when it happens? There's a COST to you if you have to go chasing them around to solve problems you did not initiate.

Sure, redeeming awards can and will change*, but in the above, I am talking about EARNING miles and that's sure part of all of this topic. And yes, using partners such as the airline malls can be 'foolish' for some, but hey, they are promoting it, right? Shouldnt they therefore run it well enough to do its job? If they fail to do this, that could be considered fraudulent!

2) All of this is a two way street. They need us too. It is not free. By using their portals and affiliated partners, cards and products, you are giving THEM effort, marketing input and a database entry per person and trasnaction. They PAY you to do for them in providing you miles for activities they drive you toward, and by promising that you can actually REDEEM these things when you want to. By making the second part an increasingly-harder-to-navigate gauntlet, they are once again bordering on fraud.

I could go on, but of course, WE signed up.
We also voted for a certain president who found no WMDs, but...

...time to vote again?

However, miles earned on credit card charges for purchases that would have been made even without the benefit of miles remains a nice perk. I have made numerous first class trips with my wife on miles primarily earned via the AMEX Skymiles card we use for most non-payroll business expenses. Sure its not as easy as it once was to find seats on flights with the desired times, but let's not forget: IT ESSENTIALLY IS A FREE FLIGHT. Some should try keeping it in perspective.

No, it is not a free flight. Accummulation of miles via a FF program credit card is an alternative to using a cashback card and receiving cash. Since 1% cashback cards are routinely available, every mile you earn on a credit card is costing you 1 cent (or 3 cents or 5 cents in the case of some of the grocery/gas rebate credit cards). The fact that you choose to take the miles in place of cash is your choice. The miles are anything but free.

\The fact that you choose to take the miles in place of cash is your choice. The miles are anything but free.

YES! ...and if some kickback, cashback, miles or other rewards are present on your card, then you either pay a higher interest rate or have other hidden 'costs' to receive them.

This example is more clearly seen in bank accounts or mortgages that offer mileage to sign up. The interest you earn is lower in the first, or the rate you get quoted is slightly higher in the second.

In the case of credit card purchases, it is true that the price of products may be the same no matter what card you use, but the merchants are sometimes agreeing to pay into the ability to let this all happen too, so in the end, because they therefore raise their prices to the consumer, you are paying for the miles there as well.

Examples of this are like when you go to CVS stores and they print you a ton of coupons on the end of your receipt that give you all sorts of savings on future visits. If you go to the el cheapo pharmacy, the prices are lower and you get no coupons. It's a trade off. One version is about people who play the game.

Your credit score also plays into this: It makes you a viable candidate to play or not. You still have the choice to play...

...but it is clear that if the game does not like you if you have low scores or bad credit, that they conversely DO like those with higher scores and good credit because they know they can rely on these people to spend more money./

they will PAY for this data. Our playing gives them data. Investors love data.

Now for you, the consumer, what the use of award miles really is, is a very intricate method to do a pre-paid, self-financed flight. You paid into the system little by little day by day in tiny amounts here and there in order to build up to receive what it takes to fly. It is as if you paid off tomorrow's flight with a few pennies per day from day 1 to today.

oh yes, you paid for it.
now they MUST deliver!

and what I signed up for was the acceptance to play THAT game.
I did NOT sign up for any part of it that purposely fails to play its part in spite of if I do mine.

if you accrue ff miles via actual flying, those miles are not free

you have implicitly paid for them as the costs of the frequent flyer programs - including IT programmimg, additional hardware , advertising, personnell costs - are all included in the price of your ticket

so not to use them is a waste of your money, and you essentially subsidize those flyer who do use them

i'm waiting for an airline to come up with multi tier priicing and produce a fare that doesnt inclide miles and is always10 to 15% lower than a mileage accruing fare

one could argue that those programs whose points expire in a year are at least tending towrds this, but they are notq uite there yet

Again, keeping some perspective would help. We're talking about a system that began as a relatively cheap way for airlines to reward their frequent customers. Most folks traveling for a living did it on someone else's dime. Of course that was before so much "downsizing" where half of the former workforce became self-employed consultants. Airlines doled out miles for you to bank. Your employer paid for the ticket, and you got the miles. Once you started to accumulate miles you had incentive to remain "loyal" to a particular carrier (assuming there was competition on that route). When you earned enough miles, you cashed the miles in for a couple of tickets to treat yourself and your spouse to a nice trip. You got free travel and were happy. The beauty of it was that it basically cost the carrier nothing to make you happy. They generally had excess capacity, so they filled some empty seats.

Twenty-five plus years later, the world has changed. Carriers are parking planes as well as switching to smaller planes on short haul routes to increase passenger loads. Flights are routinely near capacity these days. So an awards seat frequently does actually cost the airline the lost opportunity to sell that seat. Is it any wonder as airlines try to avoid a return trip to Bankruptcy Court that they tighten up on availability of awards seats and do anything else they can to improve the balance sheet? Selling miles to partners is but one way for the carriers to bring in additional revenue. Hell, in the past you had to fly quite a few flights before you racked up enough miles for a free flight. Now you can open some credit card accounts and have enough miles for a flight with your first statement. In the market place that's one big source of inflation. It's the equivalent of a banana republic printing more currency. More dinero chasing a set number of goods leads to devaluation of the currency. Same with miles. Everyone is flush with miles chasing fewer seats. That's the new reality. If we don't like it, we should play another game instead of .....ing about the rules of this game. BTW, there is no "fraud" at play. The T&C for every program clearly state the "rules" are subject to change. Well change is all around. Isn't someone running for high political office on a largely unspecified platform of change?

Now for you, the consumer, what the use of award miles really is, is a very intricate method to do a pre-paid, self-financed flight. You paid into the system little by little day by day in tiny amounts here and there in order to build up to receive what it takes to fly. It is as if you paid off tomorrow's flight with a few pennies per day from day 1 to today.


I'm not disagreeing with the rest of what you said, but I do think that miles can help you get something you could not otherwise attain, even with careful saving and penny pinching.

An example: last year I purchased 66,000 UMP miles for $1647.50. That's about 2.5 cents per mile, not a good rate by most peoples' standards, I know. I also have a MP Visa, upon which I earned another 24,000 miles or so for purchases I would have made anyway. I paid it off every month, but I did pay an annual fee of $140.00. The 24,000 miles don't represent a 1 to 1 $24,000, since I got double and triple miles on some things, but let's pretend they did. Let's say that I could have got a fantastic deal on a cashback card: 5%. $24,000x.05=$1,200.00. So the total cost, including "opportunity cost" of 90,000 miles was $1647.50+$140.00+$1200.00=$2987.50, about $3000.00, or approximately .03 per mile - again, a very bad ratio, I know (but remember, these numbers are inflated for this example - in reality, it would be about $2000.00).

However, for that $3000.00 I got 90,000 miles, which translates into a business class ticket to Japan. And since I've never seen a business class ticket to Japan on UA for less than $5000 to $6000, I still feel that the money was well-spent...as long as I'm able to get a ticket when I want to go. I did not get a free ticket, just a heavily discounted business class ticket. And that's why I still do it, because I won't pay $6000.00 out of pocket for a business class ticket, but I will pay $3000.00 over time to purchase one.

-kirax2

FF miles (augmented by transferred Rewards points) and expeditious use of hotel points have taken my wife and I to Europe 3 times and Asia once, all in BizClass. For me, the AMEX and the other CC I use are no more than artificial debit cards, as I transfer funds to beat any interest charges, and the AMEX fee is part of the cost of doing business, worth it or not in your eyes. Often, I'd rather stay in a few more quaint "non-branded" hotels abroad, but the allure of using points in the big cities is hard to beat, especially when one looks at European hotel rates.

Yes. I "pay" for FF miles and hotel points, but my cost are no greater than the costs borne by folks who neither acquire many or work at "shopping smart".

No, BizClass awards are not always easy to "game" the system to acquire, but amazingly, we've never had to sweat blood or settle for something less than planned or intended. Over the years, we've used FF miles for "special" domestic occasions, once even a club membership for a daughter doing her road warrior novitiate, and we've an awards economy flight to the East Coast in October.

There's no free lunch, but the nature of my business has made it possible for me to benefit from loyalty programs at what I perceive to be no "added" costs.

If we don't like it, we should play another game instead of .....ing about the rules of this game. BTW, there is no "fraud" at play. The T&C for every program clearly state the "rules" are subject to change. Well change is all around. Isn't someone running for high political office on a largely unspecified platform of change?

the phrase, "if you dont like it, don't listen/watch/particiapte"... is not a good dictum to live one's life by, I think. To me, its very nature fosters a bitterness and 'holier than thou' attitude that must be quelled in a society full of progressive ideas and diverse populations. It claims there is ONE WAY to be and yet we all know that's not true. It suggests that everyone should say F U to everyone else and only the ones with the power can survive.

How about: If you don't like it, log your complaint and we will either show you why you were wrong or we will change because you were right.

And yes, there is fraud in mile land. Again, I cite earning situations, primarily earning from partners whos miles fail to post. As for the rules of redemption, they really change too quickly for most normal people who were sold on the concept of getting miles to fly can keep up with. In this sense, it is nearly deceptive, but one can always argue that everything is if we don't fully commit ourselves to learning everything that comes with the gift being given by any marketer. (Similarly, Ebay is hard to be involved with unless you really get rather advanced rather quickly, or get darn lucky on your first few sales)


However, for that $3000.00 I got 90,000 miles, which translates into a business class ticket to Japan. And since I've never seen a business class ticket to Japan on UA for less than $5000 to $6000, I still feel that the money was well-spent...as long as I'm able to get a ticket when I want to go. I did not get a free ticket, just a heavily discounted business class ticket. And that's why I still do it, because I won't pay $6000.00 out of pocket for a business class ticket, but I will pay $3000.00 over time to purchase one.

-kirax2

next time, hit me up for 'trades'. I got 90k UA and would love to fly on carrier X or stay in hotel Y using points YOU may have! :D I agree your method was a great way to save several thousand dollars so it is very valid. There are, however, much cheaper ways to earn that many miles and do so very quickly...

[QUOTE=TMOliver;10198212]and we've an awards economy flight to the East Coast in October.

QUOTE]


...coming to see if the Boston Red Sox can pull off another World Series win, are ya? :D:D:D

If we don't like it, we should play another game instead of .....ing about the rules of this game. BTW, there is no "fraud" at play. The T&C for every program clearly state the "rules" are subject to change. Well change is all around. Isn't someone running for high political office on a largely unspecified platform of change?

the phrase, "if you dont like it, don't listen/watch/particiapte"... is not a good dictum to live one's life by, I think. To me, its very nature fosters a bitterness and 'holier than thou' attitude that must be quelled in a society full of progressive ideas and diverse populations. It claims there is ONE WAY to be and yet we all know that's not true. It suggests that everyone should say F U to everyone else and only the ones with the power can survive.

How about: If you don't like it, log your complaint and we will either show you why you were wrong or we will change because you were right.

And yes, there is fraud in mile land. Again, I cite earning situations, primarily earning from partners whos miles fail to post. As for the rules of redemption, they really change too quickly for most normal people who were sold on the concept of getting miles to fly can keep up with. In this sense, it is nearly deceptive, but one can always argue that everything is if we don't fully commit ourselves to learning everything that comes with the gift being given by any marketer. (Similarly, Ebay is hard to be involved with unless you really get rather advanced rather quickly, or get darn lucky on your first few sales)


However, for that $3000.00 I got 90,000 miles, which translates into a business class ticket to Japan. And since I've never seen a business class ticket to Japan on UA for less than $5000 to $6000, I still feel that the money was well-spent...as long as I'm able to get a ticket when I want to go. I did not get a free ticket, just a heavily discounted business class ticket. And that's why I still do it, because I won't pay $6000.00 out of pocket for a business class ticket, but I will pay $3000.00 over time to purchase one.

-kirax2

next time, hit me up for 'trades'. I got 90k UA and would love to fly on carrier X or stay in hotel Y using points YOU may have! :D I agree your method was a great way to save several thousand dollars so it is very valid. There are, however, much cheaper ways to earn that many miles and do so very quickly...

and we've an awards economy flight to the East Coast in October.




...coming to see if the Boston Red Sox can pull off another World Series win, are ya? :D:D:D

I agree your method was a great way to save several thousand dollars so it is very valid. There are, however, much cheaper ways to earn that many miles and do so very quickly...


I wish I knew of a cheap way to earn UA miles for my daughter's account quickly. I posted about my situation, but no one's replied. I guess I made my post too long... :o

Thanks very much for your reply. I'm glad to hear that my method was a valid one, if not the cheapest one; I'd rather feared ridicule for actually purchasing miles. ;)

BTW, this method is not as good as it used to be, since United raised the cost to purchase miles this year. :(

If you'd be willing, I'd be interested in talking with you, if only to get a feel for the kind of points I *should* be working on accruing. Would it be all right if I PMd you?

Thanks again,
-kirax2

oh I was being facetious about trading in here ;) but hey, if you have a friend or family member who has miles, hit them up.

yes your method of getting that ticket was fine because you saved money and therefore played the game nicely.

people could PM me if they wish to ask anything though, since I TRY to help out in here with tips, although I know mine aint the only ones and there are far more knowledgeable people in this forum.

:)MM

The issue remains that if DL can use the excuse of ATC/weather delay to strand you in a distant city and tell you that you cannot be booked to fly home, unless you buy an expensive walk-up one way ticket, then the value of your miles is not just worthless -- by using the miles you have actually LOST a great deal of money. All of this discussion of miles-earning credit cards vs. grocery-cashback credit cards vs. hotel programs completely misses the point of the Original Post. If my hotel program suddenly decides mid vacation that I don't have a room, big deal, I can stay in a hostel or a tent or a B&B or any number of choices that are actually cheaper and more of a travel experience anyway. But if I'm stranded halfway across the world and the airline suddenly decides to cancel the flight I'm on and refuse to put me on another unless I pay again, then it would have been far, far, far better if I'd never participated in that program to begin with. This happening once could wipe out the entire lifetime savings from being in that program.

Let me be clear: I'm worried about paying for my trip upfront with miles plus taxes/fees, as I have already paid for several trips upcoming on DL, then being stranded as this person describes and being told that I will not be transported home. In that case, yes, the miles are not just "b.s." they would truly be a scam used to cheat me out of a lot of money.

Apparently, this poster is not the only person to report this experience. THAT'S the issue. The other stuff is trivia. Let's get back to finding out if we have any legal rights in this situation. If we don't, the OP is correct, and you would have to be an idiot to earn/redeem on DL because the risk of being stranded at certain destinations could easily wipe out a year or more worth of savings by participating in the loyalty program in the first place.

Any airline employee can make a one time mistake but if this is a recurring issue on DL, then it needs to be discussed and fixed ASAP, in my humble view. The airport is not a place where a person can raise their voice, stomp their feet, and demand a supervisor. You may get the supervisor if you ask nicely, or you may get threatened with arrest because the person who doesn't want you speaking with their supervisor pretends not to like your tone. We all know the score. You can ask to speak with a higher-up, and you can suddenly meet with an attitude or a threat. We've all seen it happen. So we need to know our rights in advance. At least the number of someone we can call ourselves, on our own phone. Something!

As for "cashback" for using such and such a credit card... DUH... you better look at that interest rate on the card and see IF it's indeed such a bargain.

Why pay interest at all? CC use already allows several weeks' float time. Pay off the balance before the due date @:-)

While that used to be the case years ago, modern CC have substantially shortened the amount of time you have to pay. A frequent traveler out of country may not be able to pay before interest accrues. One of the reasons why I can rarely use my CC and pretty much stick to the debit card if I have foreign travel coming up.

But again this is not the real issue. This is a side distraction from the real issue raised in the OP.



Why pay interest at all? CC use already allows several weeks' float time. Pay off the balance before the due date @:-)

While that used to be the case years ago, modern CC have substantially shortened the amount of time you have to pay. A frequent traveler out of country may not be able to pay before interest accrues. One of the reasons why I can rarely use my CC and pretty much stick to the debit card if I have foreign travel coming up.


You can (and I have) logged onto my credit card accounts on the internet and paid them while spending time abroad. For example, I registered my AMEX cards, and I can log onto the AMEX site, and pay those cards out of my bank account at any time, day or night, so long as I have internet access.

Therefore, I guess I don't really see the problem you raise as being a significant impediment. Certainly not one that would prevent me from earning all the FF miles I earn through CC usage.

The issue remains that if DL can use the excuse of ATC/weather delay to strand you in a distant city and tell you that you cannot be booked to fly home, unless you buy an expensive walk-up one way ticket, then the value of your miles is not just worthless -- by using the miles you have actually LOST a great deal of money.

But if I'm stranded halfway across the world and the airline suddenly decides to cancel the flight I'm on and refuse to put me on another unless I pay again, then it would have been far, far, far better if I'd never participated in that program to begin with. This happening once could wipe out the entire lifetime savings from being in that program.

Let me be clear: I'm worried about paying for my trip upfront with miles plus taxes/fees, as I have already paid for several trips upcoming on DL, then being stranded as this person describes and being told that I will not be transported home. In that case, yes, the miles are not just "b.s." they would truly be a scam used to cheat me out of a lot of money.

Apparently, this poster is not the only person to report this experience. THAT'S the issue. The other stuff is trivia. Let's get back to finding out if we have any legal rights in this situation.

We've all seen it happen. So we need to know our rights in advance. At least the number of someone we can call ourselves, on our own phone. Something!

YOU are absolutely right and yes we have been veering off course, but the stuff we are talking about provides valid background information on the make up of these very programs. ie, the stuff that proves or disproves the validity of FF programs as a whole.

I think they are a sham and basically we are LUCKY when things DO work out. Kinda like some corrupt thrid-world immigration officer quietly accepting cahs to let your visa suddnely get you in or out of their corrupt country (see Indonesia, as one example for more on that one!)

So where DO you get the real lowdown and what do you bring with you to the airport to present as armed proof that your ticket is supposed to work for this flilght?

Do we call DL, ask for some higher up in mileage, get themto send a letter saying THIS TICKET HAS BEEN APPROVED (like some notary stamp they'd probably chargeus for anyway) and then bring THAT letter to an airport just IN CASE this stuff ever happens to us every time we fly?

Or... should we go by the previous 20+ years of FF programs in a general assumption that we paid for the ticket using a valid currency and that is why it should work no matter what?

When the rules suddenly and drastically change, people DO need to take action, not just roll with it and say, "if you don't like it, don't participate." After all, that would still leave the OP stranded in the middle of nowhere. Oh sure, next time he or she flies there will be little reliance on the FF useage, but we are talking about being told NO mid flight for something so obtuse it should be downright illegal!

So who... who do we call?

While I have eventually had my particular 'cases' ultimately dealt with to my satisfaction in the past, I have had very little luck in solving this type of thing when it comes to NWA/DL partner mileage crediting issues. I brought those up BECAUSE it is on the same airline (I should have been more clear about that--sorry). NW is merging into DL soon and if THAT piddily little mileage credit failure problem cannot be fixed, then this bigger 'mid-flight award validity' issue will surely be a huge nightmere to hurdle over with the airline.

We all first need to agree that while it's a game and we decided to play, that there ARE problems and WE must as a whole try to fix them. We must do this now and do it as one, because even if we think it wont affect us, it will in fact help clean up the act at these airlines for things that COULD affect us later in other areas we havent even thought of yet.

The airline could try anything just to amek or save a buck. We can no longr assume that because they are a big business that they 'would never do that to us.'

ohhh yes they would!
they ARE!

We must also agree that there needs to be a definitive point at which existing mileage reservations should count with today's rules and not be subject to change mid flight.

and all of the rules about flights NEED to be fully disclosed in type bigger than 5point, and in clear and reasonable fashions for everyone to see. Something like this could be acted into law even!

Yeah, good luck on getting THAT done. We have bigger things to work on in congress, like who to bust for using steriods in sports)

one other thing: I sure hope the OP did or does write into DL to demand refunds.

You can (and I have) logged onto my credit card accounts on the internet and paid them while spending time abroad. For example, I registered my AMEX cards, and I can log onto the AMEX site, and pay those cards out of my bank account at any time, day or night, so long as I have internet access.

Therefore, I guess I don't really see the problem you raise as being a significant impediment. Certainly not one that would prevent me from earning all the FF miles I earn through CC usage.

I tink the point is that there are times when paying your CC is lower on the list of priorities given one's situation. Being overseas MAY not just entail being in, say, some friendly internet cafe in London. It may mean you are stationed to help out with medical issues in Iraq or something like that too. Likely your internet access is not as easily used as it would be elsewhere. I dunno.
and yeah this veers off subject too

I tink the point is that there are times when paying your CC is lower on the list of priorities given one's situation. Being overseas MAY not just entail being in, say, some friendly internet cafe in London. It may mean you are stationed to help out with medical issues in Iraq or something like that too. Likely your internet access is not as easily used as it would be elsewhere. I dunno.

Sure -- but if you're in Iraq (or in the middle of the Sahara, or whatever) without the ability to access the Internet, your priorities will be different. You may not even be able to make the minimum payments required. Mind you, there probably aren't many merchants in the Sahara accepting credit cards.

But for the majority of the members of these forums, it's not really a question of not being able to make a payment. But each one of us has different priorities ...

Sure -- but if you're in Iraq (or in the middle of the Sahara, or whatever) without the ability to access the Internet, your priorities will be different. You may not even be able to make the minimum payments required. Mind you, there probably aren't many merchants in the Sahara accepting credit cards.

But for the majority of the members of these forums, it's not really a question of not being able to make a payment. But each one of us has different priorities ...

I have all my credit cards set to automatically withdraw the statement balance from from my checking account each month. This prevents me from ever getting charged interest or late fees. I suppose there are cases where it could be bad (i.e. if my card was stolen) but the avoidance of fees and interest is worth that risk to me.

Anyway, yes, this is getting off topic.

Re-reading the original post, one thing really stands out to me - that when the OP spoke to the right person, the whole thing was fixed in "under a minute".

How much of a risk is it that someone behind the counter will call the police if they "don't like your tone"? I'm genuinely curious, because it seems to me that we need to get more assertive. With a lot of the horror stories I've been reading recently, it seemed to me that people accepted the bad things passively, rather than standing up for themselves. I could be wrong, of course - I wasn't there in any of those cases. And of course, one should always start with respect and kindness. But when a smile and "Isn't there *anything* you can do for me?" fails, then we need to move to, "This is unacceptable," to "I'd like to speak with your supervisor," and then start over again. If I'm being mistreated, I have no problem raising my voice, though I will always keep my language polite: "This is entirely unacceptable. I reserved these tickets a month ago and now you are stranding me here in midflight? I've been a loyal customer of your airline for years, as the very fact that I was able to reserve this flight with miles should demonstrate. If you can't help me, please let me speak with someone that can," etc.

Really, it seems like it's mostly about finding the person that CAN help you, at least based on the OP. And as Marathon Man says, how can we do that? How can we find the person that can "make it right" in less than a minute, and speak with them? Any ideas?

-kirax2

one way is to be someone of status within the airline's FF program.
another is to be someone who works for the police or FBI or TSA
Another is to be a pregnant woman
and finally, to get darn lucky.

I have a similar united horror story that nearly caused security to come over but in the end, I paid $2,000 for a new immediate ticket to get on what I was supposed to be on, and in 3 months' time, after much hell and pressing the issue with all parties, I had my money back with appologies and flight vouchers to boot. It sucked though, lemme tell ya. I had to be the tenacious one.

at the airline desk I experienced lies from supervisors and others, and one employee told me "There IS nothing you or we can do sir, this airline is bankrupt anyway!"

yeah I almost lost it.

I am guilty of traveling outside the area that is serviced by reliable internet. Silly me. :cool:



You can (and I have) logged onto my credit card accounts on the internet and paid them while spending time abroad. For example, I registered my AMEX cards, and I can log onto the AMEX site, and pay those cards out of my bank account at any time, day or night, so long as I have internet access.

Therefore, I guess I don't really see the problem you raise as being a significant impediment. Certainly not one that would prevent me from earning all the FF miles I earn through CC usage.

1) Well, my friend just cxl'd his Amex card because the automatic payments "somehow" didn't work, to the profit of Amex which then wanted to charge a $38 late fee. Result: Amex has just lost a customer of many years standing. The problem is that if the automatic process doesn't work as it should, there is no longer any understanding on the part of the CC company. They make most of their money on bogus fees these days, and "bad" customers are valued more than good customers. So it seems they either want you to become a "bad" fee-paying customer, or they don't want your business anyway. My personal choice -- too much hassle and keeping up with paperwork to be worth the few extra miles I earn. Admittedly I just don't spend that much money and CC miles never amount to anything for me anyway. I get BY FAR the bulk of my miles by flying.

2) I am a middle-aged woman. It doesn't matter how many times I say "please" and "thank you," if I contradict someone, instead of deferring to the other person's authority, then I am considered to be hysterical and out of control. Even Hillary Clinton couldn't nicely raise her voice without being considered a witch. If I persist at asking the same question, no matter how nicely, "May I see the supervisor, please?" then I am a nag. That's just the way the world works, and it isn't going to change before my next flight. I sometimes see middle-aged men get results by being assertive but even they, sometimes, get warned that they are subject to arrest/detention/"do you want to fly today?" My chances of a good result by "insisting" -- which is called "nagging" when a woman does it -- are close enough to zero that I won't risk it.

3) I agree with this point 100%: Really, it seems like it's mostly about finding the person that CAN help you, at least based on the OP. And as Marathon Man says, how can we do that? How can we find the person that can "make it right" in less than a minute, and speak with them? Any ideas?









I have all my credit cards set to automatically withdraw the statement balance from from my checking account each month. This prevents me from ever getting charged interest or late fees. I suppose there are cases where it could be bad (i.e. if my card was stolen) but the avoidance of fees and interest is worth that risk to me.

Anyway, yes, this is getting off topic.

Re-reading the original post, one thing really stands out to me - that when the OP spoke to the right person, the whole thing was fixed in "under a minute".

How much of a risk is it that someone behind the counter will call the police if they "don't like your tone"? I'm genuinely curious, because it seems to me that we need to get more assertive. With a lot of the horror stories I've been reading recently, it seemed to me that people accepted the bad things passively, rather than standing up for themselves. I could be wrong, of course - I wasn't there in any of those cases. And of course, one should always start with respect and kindness. But when a smile and "Isn't there *anything* you can do for me?" fails, then we need to move to, "This is unacceptable," to "I'd like to speak with your supervisor," and then start over again. If I'm being mistreated, I have no problem raising my voice, though I will always keep my language polite: "This is entirely unacceptable. I reserved these tickets a month ago and now you are stranding me here in midflight? I've been a loyal customer of your airline for years, as the very fact that I was able to reserve this flight with miles should demonstrate. If you can't help me, please let me speak with someone that can," etc.

Really, it seems like it's mostly about finding the person that CAN help you, at least based on the OP. And as Marathon Man says, how can we do that? How can we find the person that can "make it right" in less than a minute, and speak with them? Any ideas?

-kirax2

I suspect this is what most of us would have to do in practice. Pay the extortionist fee and then put a charge-back through at the credit card company. This process is a nightmare, and I was told frequently that you can "never" charge-back an air ticket, under any circumstances. I had to do it once in the 1990s, and it took over a YEAR for the charge to be removed. I was pretty much subjected monthly or more often to threats from the creditor and at one point I was certain we'd all end up in court. Not fun. But you gotta do what you gotta do.

It could not be handled at the time of the flight no matter how polite or how tearful or how loudly you raised your voice. I didn't try the yelling, but I saw others in the same mess try it without success. I stuck with being courteous and very, very sad. But if the agent is determined to be nasty and to imagine that she is being threatened, at some point, there is nothing you can do but go along to get along and file a complaint later. And this was way before 911. I can't imagine that the situation would be any easier to deal with on site today.







I have a similar united horror story that nearly caused security to come over but in the end, I paid $2,000 for a new immediate ticket to get on what I was supposed to be on, and in 3 months' time, after much hell and pressing the issue with all parties, I had my money back with appologies and flight vouchers to boot. It sucked though, lemme tell ya. I had to be the tenacious one.

at the airline desk I experienced lies from supervisors and others, and one employee told me "There IS nothing you or we can do sir, this airline is bankrupt anyway!"

yeah I almost lost it.

I am guilty of traveling outside the area that is serviced by reliable internet. Silly me. :cool:
Chase UMPV can be set up to automatically pay the amount of the last statement balance on the payment due date every month right from your checking account. You can be on the moon and still pay off your balance. ;)

That sounds like a bad experience, I do have to say I have never experienced a problem like that using miles. It has always gone smoothly and usually they seem to treat me better because they know I give them enough business to have the miles to fly.

What is unfortunately is that they keep upping the miles required for a ticket. Also, occasionally i get a terminal rep who just does not want to be there and takes it out on every customer.

Hopefully this was an isolated incident.

Yeah, me too. I'm hoping this was just an isolated case of a bad employee, which could happen anywhere in any industry. If there is really a pattern, it's far more disturbing.

And thanks to JonathanIT, I thought I'd heard of such an option but when I asked about it, the credit card in question pretended not to have heard of it. Sigh. I will investigate further.



That sounds like a bad experience, I do have to say I have never experienced a problem like that using miles. It has always gone smoothly and usually they seem to treat me better because they know I give them enough business to have the miles to fly.

What is unfortunately is that they keep upping the miles required for a ticket. Also, occasionally i get a terminal rep who just does not want to be there and takes it out on every customer.

Hopefully this was an isolated incident.

what words or things should we ask delta to prepare ourselves for when booking awards with them going forward?

what were the conditions of your situation? was it a matter of them not wanting to give you a seat because you were a lowly award, or because awards somehow get lower priority in the minds of those at the gates, or because plane 2 was slated with no seats available for your type of--or any type of awards, and so they merely couldnt figure out how to key it in to make a stuck person fit in that otherwise never would have been there standing before them to pose such a problem?

I was thinking, for example...

"hey delta, i just booked this itin with 25k miles that connects thru slc. let's say it gets delayed and I need to take another DL plane out to make my other DL connection. Does this award prevent that?"

if they say "no, that wont be a problem," I will get a name and employee ID to have with me in the airport.

Both "situations" occurred in Frankfurt, Germany. They were both award tickets. I don't remember exactly what happened, but both were concerning canceled flights due to mechanical problems and re-routing to get to an emergency at home. The AA supervisor listened to the details and even though it was an award ticket she tried to acomodate me. The Delta supervisor stated the "award ticket" issue....and wouldn't help at all, believing that the award ticket was a lesser version of a "real" ticket. This was not a situation getting the initial ticket...that problem is about the same with Delta and AA....at least it was the last I used Delta. This was after the ticket was issued....on a problem getting from point A to B....where people with "regular" tickets were being helped.....and Delta singled out my "award"...like it was some sort of non-revenue ticket and that I had no rights at all....at least not more than their employees flying for free. That is my point. Otay?

Both "situations" occurred in Frankfurt, Germany. They were both award tickets. I don't remember exactly what happened, but both were concerning canceled flights due to mechanical problems and re-routing to get to an emergency at home. The AA supervisor listened to the details and even though it was an award ticket she tried to acomodate me. The Delta supervisor stated the "award ticket" issue....and wouldn't help at all, believing that the award ticket was a lesser version of a "real" ticket. This was not a situation getting the initial ticket...that problem is about the same with Delta and AA....at least it was the last I used Delta. This was after the ticket was issued....on a problem getting from point A to B....where people with "regular" tickets were being helped.....and Delta singled out my "award"...like it was some sort of non-revenue ticket and that I had no rights at all....at least not more than their employees flying for free. That is my point. Otay?

yup, I gotcha.
but what I am asking is... in case one were to be planning on flying an award ticket on DELTA and wanted to BE SURE this would not ever happen, then do you suppose one could contact the airline BEFORE hand and get something in writing stating it is valid, so that if one is ever in that situation you were in, they could whip out said letter and say,
no, airline idiot employee... I have something here that validates my ticket!"

I wonder if that's doable. I mean, you'd think the ticket itself is good enough, but cases such as yours prove otherwise--until ultimately someone helped you and you had not blown up first.

yup, I gotcha.
but what I am asking is... in case one were to be planning on flying an award ticket on DELTA and wanted to BE SURE this would not ever happen, then do you suppose one could contact the airline BEFORE hand and get something in writing stating it is valid, so that if one is ever in that situation you were in, they could whip out said letter and say,
no, airline idiot employee... I have something here that validates my ticket!"

I wonder if that's doable. I mean, you'd think the ticket itself is good enough, but cases such as yours prove otherwise--until ultimately someone helped you and you had not blown up first.

One would think that even the contract employees that we sometimes think work for the airline directly (but actually work for a company like Swissport/ "Swissport International Ltd., which is owned by Ferrovial, a leading European infrastructure and service corporation based in Spain, provides ground services for over 70 million passengers and 3.2 million tonnes of cargo a year on behalf of some 650 client companies. With its workforce of around 30 000 personnel, Swissport is active at 187 airports in 43 countries on five continents, and generated consolidated operating revenue of CHF 1.9 billion (EUR 1 266 million or USD 1 583 million) last year...... for example)....would be aware of what a FF award ticket is and the weight of the ticket. But they are not. I have had some really strange stuff happen with award tickets....but I have used a lot of them and sometimes everything is very smooth. I even had an AA FF award on CX in LAX and they refused boarding with the comment "ticket no good"......."flight full".......? This was a bad one as the flight was oversold and they were not only making me the first one denied boarding....but going with a "ticket no good" explanation. This time I called the AA desk and they did have the airport manager from AA come physically down to the CX terminal area. After a brief discussion I was given a boarding pass. I guess the supervisor explained that an award ticket is a real ticket.......I was not privy to the conversation. There are a lot of personnel out there that believe an award is some type of non-rev with last boarding rights when problems occur....it's not only on Delta....but actual Delta employess (working directly for Delta and not contract employees) have looked at FF tix....and felt it was a lesser form of reality.

As to your specific question, I would say there is no letter that you can obtain because at the administrative level where the ticket is issued, they know it is a real ticket for the class and seat awarded. As many people who do not get into these situations are the ones you are talking to...they would believe the concern to be moot.

I don't know why you guys are bothering. The OP did a post and run and really doesn't seem to care that you guys are giving feedback on his/her issue. It was probably the OP's screw up from the start, but if he/she doesn't care about what any of you say, why bother posting on this???

The original poster seems more upset that he was being treated differently because he was on an award ticket. Frankly, if his award ticket included the connecting flight, there is no reason he should have been denied the re-routing when seats were available and others in the same situation (on paid tickets) were re-routed. Interesting that this was on DL as I've noticed a number of posts on the DL forum that relate similar failures by DL to re-book ticketed award flights following schedule changes, flight delays, or cancellations. I was always under the impression that once booked, airlines treated award tickets like any other ticket when things occurred that are outside the traveler's control. It's disconcerting that DL appears to be moving away from that. Requiring award seats to be available to re-route someone on an award ticket when there are delays/cancellations seems ridiculous and could easily lead one to be stranded.

...more in reference to this post and a few by Marathon Man...than the original OP.....who did a runner for sure!!

Why?

...so I could try to muscle my way in and take over the thread by babbling endlessly about stuff that probably hasnt happened to most people in here and try to act like I know what I'm talking about cuz I probably don't in my non-online life?

:D:D:D:D:D:D

Either that or it's just an interesting subject and I'd like to be prepared when I fly on awards.

Or both :D:D:D

I am the original poster and returned yesterday from my trip. I did not feel like spending my time away responding to posts on this forum and did not look at it until the day after my return. I had no idea there would be such a strong response to what I wrote and that it would appear that I had merely posted and ran. Of course, I am delighted to hear all the responses, especially from those who see my point. What more would anyone want me to say, though? It sounds like people got the drift and feel as I do that the airlines need us to let them know of our dissatisfaction. To be treated as a freeloader when using FF tickets is not right. If difficulties arise, even if the airlines claim it is not their fault, if they can resolve the difficulties by using empty seats which would otherwise go unused, as in my case, and they should do it without a fuss.

P.S. .. The gate agent who had dealt with me was a prince of a guy. He worked the boarding process and multi-tasked quite easily and did so with professional cool. He tried his best to get me what I wanted in rebooking, but did not have the power to do more. I wrote Delta a letter complimenting him and I wrote them a separate letter letting them know of my dissatisfaction. The responses I got were typical generic ones.

On my return trip, I had more trouble, but it had nothing to do with FF miles. The agent switched my exit row seat at the last minute after misunderstanding a request to be moved made by someone with my same last name. I only found this out right before boarding, even though my boarding pass had the correct seat. I had to fight - yes, yell and argue adamantly with supervisors for 15 minutes - to get what I rightly deserved. They were telling me that exit rows have no more leg room and bulkhead seats are better (with walls in front of your toes . . . sure.) Ultimately, they had to ask the passenger to whom they had just mistakenly given my seat to vacate it. I learned later that he had fought hard to retain it until someone else volunteered to move. My flight was excellent after that, other than having been made late for refueling stop due to Delta's unwillingness to fix a hydraulic light problem in a foreign city. They are truly tight for money and the result is delays.

you failed to tell us you were goiongto travel! shame on you :D:D:D

Anyway, yeah, seems as though DL is strapped for cash. Very United of them.
I am bumming because I use NWA to fly overseas and now they will be engrossed into this new quagmire for sure.

Oh whoa is me.
:D

glad to have you back. I hope the DL problem in your orginal post never happens to you or anyone again. And as for the seat mistake the airline made, I am glad you fought for it but didnt get in trouble. It is sad that they must make life so hard for people. Take note of this experience the next time someone in FT says all this flying crap is easy.

While I agree with you Zephyrus to some extent, award tickets are not always top priority with airlines, you are missing a lot here. Granted, the travel industry is hurting and airlines are trying to squeeze money no matter what, I still believe that loyalty has its benefits. Hear me out and then consider what I say. My wife and I are currently in the process of re-qualifying for PLT level in AA for the 2nd year and here are our main reasons. A higher tier loyalty level will allow you to go through security on a separate and shorter line on certain airports, usually the one reserved for first class, most airlines have a designated lines only for higher tier members, this line could actually be shorter than regular lines, and it doesn't matter that you bought a cheaper fare ticket. You can be one of the first to board a plane, and you can have better seat selections, even though you bought a cheaper fare ^. You can also be on the top of the list for standby. Other things to consider are that with a higher tier loyalty level you can accumulate more miles maybe 1.5x or 2x than regular level, you also accumulate points that can be used for upgrades, or be given upgrades automatically if the airlines need to bump you to first class to accomodate other passengers. While airlines are limiting the amount of award travels, with time and patience you might be able to find a good route to use them, or you can even use your miles to pay for your membership to the airlines lounge club at the airport. We belong to the AAdmirals club, and its wonderful. Better seating, restroom facility, shower facility, free internet, wifi, free snacks, bar area, but the most important thing, if you need help with your reservation, there are several customer service reps in the lounge area that are more helpful than the ones one "main" part of the airport. With all this, I still say that loyalty has its benefits.