JetBlue TrueBlue - Sunday 7/27

B6 unable to scale for the east coast weather issues? Phone system hangs up when you call... got a message before and it didn't even play out all the way. Friend is trying to get out but they won't give option to rebook for tomorrow w/o paying penalty. Who wants to hang at ORD on a 4 PM JFK flight that's now scheduled to leave at 7:45 PM--- and who knows how much longer the delay could exist? The flight that was supposed to depart at 11:55 (908) still hasn't left and it's now past 5:40 local time. :td:

Why does JetBlue get the :td: from you? If anything, the weather gets the :td:

Today is a mess up in NY. I had 2 friends on MSY-JFK and PBI-EWR, both cancelled due to weather.

And it is NOT only JetBlue - all airlines are not doing so well in this mess today.

B6 unable to scale for the east coast weather issues? Phone system hangs up when you call... got a message before and it didn't even play out all the way. Friend is trying to get out but they won't give option to rebook for tomorrow w/o paying penalty. Who wants to hang at ORD on a 4 PM JFK flight that's now scheduled to leave at 7:45 PM--- and who knows how much longer the delay could exist? The flight that was supposed to depart at 11:55 (908) still hasn't left and it's now past 5:40 local time. :td:

I'm sorry to hear about your friend! I was supposed to be flying B6 today myself.... but never made it to my destination, which apparently was a good thing, considering that I would now be stuck there! (You can follow that saga in the other thread about East Coast cancellations.)

JetBlue, and their fans, will blame everything on weather. Yes, the weather sucks, but the big boys still get you there, or at least try.

JetBlue, and their fans, will blame everything on weather. Yes, the weather sucks, but the big boys still get you there, or at least try.

You coulda fooled me... http://www.star-telegram.com/state_news/story/746272.html (by the way, AA is the biggest of the big boys).

Why does JetBlue get the :td: from you? If anything, the weather gets the :td:

Because their phone system won't handle the call volume and because the company won't allow a rebooking for tomorrow based on a 4+ hour delay. Those points were pretty clearly outlined in the OP.

This seems to be a familiar refrain - B6 doesn't handle IRROPs well. I'm very happy I wasn't flying today. I might be buying a walk-up ticket NYC-ATL tomorrow, and I'm hoping that the weather has passed through by then, but I put up with a 3+ hour delay on Thursday and managed to survive. Still, at that time my carrier gave me several options via a phone call that didn't get disconnected due to a system overload. I guess I just got lucky. :p :cool:

You coulda fooled me... http://www.star-telegram.com/state_news/story/746272.html (by the way, AA is the biggest of the big boys).

Sure, all airlines suffer delays. And weather causes a lot of them. But there's a big difference between delays and cancellations, and there's an even bigger difference between cancellations on a route that AA/UA serve 5x per day, and route that B6 serves once per day. Those statistic do not account for this at all.

My quote said the 'big boys get you there' -- I never said anything about getting you there on time. When B6 cancels flights on routes served once per day, I would say that they have failed to get you there.

But there's a big difference between delays and cancellations, and there's an even bigger difference between cancellations on a route that AA/UA serve 5x per day, and route that B6 serves once per day. .

Frequency is not necessarily they key. If AA/UA serve a route 5/times a day, but all 5 flights are full, if one of them cancels, you still don't have a seat on one of the non-stops.

As has been discussed in the other thread, the difference for some other airlines is that they have multiple routing possiblities, so if you are going JFK-LGB, for example, they could re-route you through Chicago or Dallas. Jetblue does not have that.

Sure, all airlines suffer delays. And weather causes a lot of them. But there's a big difference between delays and cancellations, and there's an even bigger difference between cancellations on a route that AA/UA serve 5x per day, and route that B6 serves once per day. Those statistic do not account for this at all.

My quote said the 'big boys get you there' -- I never said anything about getting you there on time. When B6 cancels flights on routes served once per day, I would say that they have failed to get you there.

Again, I'll echo the comment of others that pre-2/14 we had the highest completion factor (~99.8%), but low on-time performance. Now, we pre-cancel and still get slammed. Unfortunately, you can't have the best of both worlds.

This might explain the delays from FAA.gov
Due to WEATHER / THUNDERSTORMS, there is a Traffic Management Program in effect for traffic arriving John F Kennedy International Airport, New York, NY (JFK). This is causing some arriving flights to be delayed an average of 5 hours and 1 minute. To see if you may be affected, select your departure airport and check "Delays by Destination".

So you can't blame Jetblue that the plane was delayed for 4 hours, other flights were delayed as well, some of them for more than 5 hours. Plus, I'm sure if you had gone to the gate that the gate for flight 908 you could have been put on the standby list and maybe gotten out of there sooner.

Because their phone system won't handle the call volume and because the company won't allow a rebooking for tomorrow based on a 4+ hour delay. Those points were pretty clearly outlined in the OP.

This seems to be a familiar refrain - B6 doesn't handle IRROPs well.

The phone thing is bad. And B6 ain't great with IIROPs. But does any airline let you rebook fee-free at will just because of a delay? I mostly fly AA, I'm elite, and I think they'd laugh at me if I asked. But maybe I'd be surprised.

Again, I'll echo the comment of others that pre-2/14 we had the highest completion factor (~99.8%), but low on-time performance. Now, we pre-cancel and still get slammed. Unfortunately, you can't have the best of both worlds.

The problem is more in the recovery than in the cancellations. JetBlue's recovery still lags behind other carriers and they suffer for it in passenger impact. We've heard over and over again that B6 wants the business passengers. But their operations don't seem to be bearing out that desire.

They need to upgrade the res infrascture in order to better handle these events. The need to interline with airlines like Frontier or Airtran so that they can handle these events better. I read on other forums that the big airlines also have trouble getting people to their destination .

Rather than conjecture, specific to the OPs routing of ORD-JFK, I decided to a do a little research on AA/UA (since they hub at ORD) to see (if Jetblue interlined) how things might have worked out.

AA: 3 flights
AA 4138 - Eagle Service scheduled to leave ORD 9:50am and arrive at 1:10p. Departed on time, but posts as 'in transit' with an estimated arrival of 3:32pm Not sure what happened to it (diversion?)
AA 1362 - Scheduled to depart ORD at 12:55pm. Actual departure 4:39pm. Scheduled arrival in JFK 4:15pm Actual Arrival 8:25pm
AA 2464 - Scheduled to leave ORD at 5pm and arrive JFK at 8:30pm. Left on time and arrived 15 minutes late

UA: does not fly ORD-JFK non-stop. Routes passengers through IAD. This is the status of the 5 United Express flights from IAD to JFK:
UA 7577: Scheduled departure 8:10am, actual departure 8:21am. Scheduled arrival 9:36am, actual arrival 9:42am.
UA 7578: Scheduled departure 12:25pm. Canceled.
US 7579: Scheduled departure 4:45pm. Canceled.
UA 7792: Scheduled departure 9:00pm, current estimated departure 10:33pm
UA 7581: Scheduled departure 10:05pm, canceled.


As generally agreed (I think), B6 could benefit from some interlining. However, as someone who mostly flies the 'big boys' for business travel (a lot), the assertions made about them in this thread are very "grass-is-greener-on-other-side" minded, and not the reality that I see in my travels (or in the stats).

-----
Edited after the fact for completeness. Adding Delta stats (I did not realize they flew the ORD/JFK route)

Delta Express, 4 flights:
DL 4160 Scheduled departure 7:00am, actual 6:55 am. Schedule arrival 10:30am, actual 10:10am.
DL 6172 Scheduled departure 11:40am, actual 7:15pm. Scheduled arrival 2:59pm. Current estimated arrival 10:29pm.
DL 6182 Scheduled departure 2:27pm. Canceled.
DL 6184 Scheduled departure 5:30pm. Current estimated departure 10:45pm.

Rather than conjecutre, specific to the OPs routing of ORD-JFK, I decided to a do a little research on AA/UA (since they hub at ORD) to see (if Jetblue interlined) how things might have worked out.


Yeah, but they'll answer the phone if you call. ;)

Frequency is not necessarily they key. If AA/UA serve a route 5/times a day, but all 5 flights are full, if one of them cancels, you still don't have a seat on one of the non-stops.

As has been discussed in the other thread, the difference for some other airlines is that they have multiple routing possiblities, so if you are going JFK-LGB, for example, they could re-route you through Chicago or Dallas. Jetblue does not have that.

Just last weekend I was flying UA on BOS-DEN-BOS. The previous DEN-BOS on Sunday canceled on a day when most of the loads were showing Y7 or so on that route. I expected a bit of chaos at the gate (and maybe a bump fest!) but found no such thing. There were no throngs of people milling about the gate and eventually most stand-by's were boarded, though maybe not all. Apparently the excess capacity of the network was able to absorb a nearly full 757 on the penultimate flight of the day -- and on an O/D route no less (convince me that a flight getting in at 11PM local has people making connections!) So no, it's not a guaranteed seat on a non-stop, but it's a decent chance of getting you to your destination.

So it's partially about the hubs as you say, but also about frequency, and of course loads. JetBlue does have two east coast hubs (albeit with highly correlated weather) but often the way they schedule the flights (both leaving at the same time for instance) can preclude pax from rerouting via the other.

So it's partially about the hubs as you say, but also about frequency, and of course loads.

And planes have a lot to do with the loads, too. UA's 757s can fly a lot more IRROP-stranded customers, obviously.

As has been discussed in the other thread....

Perhaps we could save a lot of time and effort if we just had a section of the JetBlue sticky-wiki devoted to 'shortcoming with respect to irrops'. Then we could reference that every time it rains in New York or Boston. :D:D:D

And planes have a lot to do with the loads, too. UA's 757s can fly a lot more IRROP-stranded customers, obviously.

Interestingly, I think a lot of people would say that UA has a much more liberal yield management policy (i.e. they like to overbook) as compared to JetBlue, who AFAIK, does not overbook. That would seem to be an argument that should actually help JetBlue, at least to first order.

I suppose I didn't do my research before booking my cousin on B6. She flew SEA-JFK last week, everything went fine. Today she was scheduled to fly JFK-SEA, and flight was cancelled. B6 did not call to notify her of the cancellation until 5 minutes before boarding was originally scheduled to begin. Luckily, I checked jetblue.com and noticed the flight was cancelled two hours prior and called her advising not to leave for JFK.

A Jetblue reservations agent told me (after 10 attempts at calling their reservations line which played a recording asking me to call back later) that since they have no interline agreements with other carriers, my cousin could only fly on Jetblue metal during IRROPS. And the earliest seat available would be Wednesday (July30) with a connection in SAN.

I really wish I had booked her on DL... Delta may have cancelled flights today (and I don't blame them!), but could get her back to SEA tomorrow or Tuesday with a myriad of flight routings.

I suppose I didn't do my research before booking my cousin on B6. She flew SEA-JFK last week, everything went fine. Today she was scheduled to fly JFK-SEA, and flight was cancelled. B6 did not call to notify her of the cancellation until 5 minutes before boarding was originally scheduled to begin. Luckily, I checked jetblue.com and noticed the flight was cancelled two hours prior and called her advising not to leave for JFK.

A Jetblue reservations agent told me (after 10 attempts at calling their reservations line which played a recording asking me to call back later) that since they have no interline agreements with other carriers, my cousin could only fly on Jetblue metal during IRROPS. And the earliest seat available would be Wednesday (July30) with a connection in SAN.

I really wish I had booked her on DL... Delta may have cancelled flights today (and I don't blame them!), but could get her back to SEA tomorrow or Tuesday with a myriad of flight routings.

Yeah, that really is quite ridiculous. Wednesday through SAN???? :confused:

Yeah, that really is quite ridiculous. Wednesday through SAN???? :confused:

Wow, good thing this isn't a melt-down..... she might not get home until next month!

Wow, good thing this isn't a melt-down..... she might not get home until next month!

Honestly even during the Valentine's Day thing I think they got people out in under 4 full days.

A Jetblue reservations agent told me (after 10 attempts at calling their reservations line which played a recording asking me to call back later) that since they have no interline agreements with other carriers, my cousin could only fly on Jetblue metal during IRROPS. And the earliest seat available would be Wednesday (July30) with a connection in SAN.

Just remember that the same thing happened to a friend of mine last summer on SJC-BOS. It was a Friday night and he was coming back on a business trip. B6 cancelled the flight and told him they couldn't get him out until the following Weds! He said that wouldn't work, but all they would do is give him back his money. The only ticket he could find was a NW red-eye via DTW in First. In his case, he could at least expense it to the company.

Giving pax their money back is not a substitute for getting them home, when that money will, at best, cover about 1/2 of a full-fare walk-up ticket.

Same thing happened to me twice last year LAS-BOS in a three week time period. Flying home Friday night, cancelled flights, nothing until Sunday afternoon and Tuesday, respectively. That is why B6 will never have the FF business - during irrops, it is a nightmare and you really have no real recourse with them. Too bad as their flight experience is the best in the US market IMO. BUT I just cant risk it...:(

Same thing happened to me twice last year LAS-BOS in a three week time period. Flying home Friday night, cancelled flights, nothing until Sunday afternoon and Tuesday, respectively. That is why B6 will never have the FF business - during irrops, it is a nightmare and you really have no real recourse with them. Too bad as their flight experience is the best in the US market IMO. BUT I just cant risk it...:(

BUR to JFK tonight they kept changing the take off time. They pushed the time back to after midnight 12:41. Then they just changed their minds and decided to cancel it. Once again, nobody answers their 800 number, the website won't let me rebook and it looks like all the flights are sold out tomorrow anyway.

They really need to figure out a way to deal with these situations better. JFK is always going to have weather. Either t-storms in the summer or snow/ice in the winter.

Some people continue to miss the point, which isn't to blame B6 for delays and cancellations, but for poor infrastructure that can't even handle higher volumes of calls during heavy IRROPs situations. That's inexcusable.

BUR to JFK tonight they kept changing the take off time. They pushed the time back to after midnight 12:41. Then they just changed their minds and decided to cancel it. Once again, nobody answers their 800 number, the website won't let me rebook and it looks like all the flights are sold out tomorrow anyway.

They really need to figure out a way to deal with these situations better. JFK is always going to have weather. Either t-storms in the summer or snow/ice in the winter.

Finally got through to JetBlue's 800# and they can't rebook me out of either BUR, LGB or ONT until Tuesday night. A little help with either lodging or booking on another airline would be nice.

I have to be in NY, and United's flights are empty;plenty of available seats out of LAX. Instead of Jetblue getting me on another airline, for the second time this week I needed to shell out $500 bucks to get a seat on a plane that will get me to where I need to be.

I have to say I thought they were getting better at recovery from an IROP, but wow multiple cancellations already today and it's only 8am. They really need to do something about this, I mean when the sun is shining they kick butt as an airline, but with east coast weather they cannot recover by the next day.

I have to say I thought they were getting better at recovery from an IROP, but wow multiple cancellations already today and it's only 8am. They really need to do something about this, I mean when the sun is shining they kick butt as an airline, but with east coast weather they cannot recover by the next day.

Wouldn't morning cancellations today be rollover from cancellations last evening? If the plane/crew are stuck in XYZ, they can't fly from ABC.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=849259

You are betting off driving then flying into a NYC airport.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newyork/ny-bc-ny--delta-flightdelay0728jul28,0,2470987.story

This Delta flight was delayed 7 hours!

Folks, cancellations have NOTHING to do with the weather. It's all revenue management. If B6 feels they can make more money (or save money) by cancelling a flight they'll do just that.

Why do you think that European airlines hardly cancel any flights, regardless of weather? It's because they get hit by fines and have to pay out big bucks to stranded pax.

Folks, cancellations have NOTHING to do with the weather. It's all revenue management. If B6 feels they can make more money (or save money) by cancelling a flight they'll do just that.

Why do you think that European airlines hardly cancel any flights, regardless of weather? It's because they get hit by fines and have to pay out big bucks to stranded pax.

Uh, no sorry wrong.

Crews were going to be in violation of their duty time.

Folks, cancellations have NOTHING to do with the weather. It's all revenue management. If B6 feels they can make more money (or save money) by cancelling a flight they'll do just that.

Why do you think that European airlines hardly cancel any flights, regardless of weather? It's because they get hit by fines and have to pay out big bucks to stranded pax.

Simply not true. If cancellations have NOTHING to do with the weather, please, I encourage you to post the flights on any airline that actually depat during the next major hurricane and nor'easter (obviously ones that originate, arrive or go through the affected city(ies).

Simply not true. If cancellations have NOTHING to do with the weather, please, I encourage you to post the flights on any airline that actually depat during the next major hurricane and nor'easter (obviously ones that originate, arrive or go through the affected city(ies).

Do you deny the fact that airlines take advantage of "weather" as a nebulous category that gives them wide-ranging power to cancel flights they do not want to fly?

Do you deny the fact that airlines take advantage of "weather" as a nebulous category that gives them wide-ranging power to cancel flights they do not want to fly?

That's not the discussion - my response was to address the statement that cancellations have NOTHING to do with the weather. If it has nothing to do with the weather, then please let me know why every airline cancels tons of flights when there is a hurricane, which is obviously a weather-related event.

Do you deny the fact that airlines take advantage of "weather" as a nebulous category that gives them wide-ranging power to cancel flights they do not want to fly?

Why would they not want to fly? They have a planeload of passengers and revenue that cannot be released/recognized until the flight is completed.

Please

That's not the discussion - my response was to address the statement that cancellations have NOTHING to do with the weather. If it has nothing to do with the weather, then please let me know why every airline cancels tons of flights when there is a hurricane, which is obviously a weather-related event.

Don't you think you're taking this a little too literally?

Do you have an explanation for why JetBlue cancels more flights for weather than, say, Lufthansa?

Do you have an explanation for why JetBlue cancels more flights for weather than, say, Lufthansa?

To approach this analytically:

1. Do we know that JetBlue cancels more flights for weather than, for example, Lufthansa? Where is this data source from?
2. If 1 is true, is this just a Jetblue thing, or is it true of all US airlines (I would lean toward the latter)
3. After we know those fact, then we can try to analyze the possibilities. More severe weather patterns at coastal hubs? Overcrowding as US airports? Other reasons?

Until we get the facts agreed and in order, discussing conclusions is futile conjecture.

To approach this analytically:

1. Do we know that JetBlue cancels more flights for weather than, for example, Lufthansa? Where is this data source from?
2. If 1 is true, is this just a Jetblue thing, or is it true of all US airlines (I would lean toward the latter)
3. After we know those fact, then we can try to analyze the possibilities. More severe weather patterns at coastal hubs? Overcrowding as US airports? Other reasons?

Until we get the facts agreed and in order, discussing conclusions is futile conjecture.

Or since this is an internet bulletin board we could just do what we always do and give our uninformed opinions as fact. :)

Simply not true. If cancellations have NOTHING to do with the weather, please, I encourage you to post the flights on any airline that actually depat during the next major hurricane and nor'easter (obviously ones that originate, arrive or go through the affected city(ies).

I agree I was using hyperbole to make a point. Of course there will be no flights during a major hurricane or nor'easter. But cancelling a flight because of a little bit of rain? A tiny thunderstorm? :td::td::td:

What's next? There is too much sun and the pilot forgot his sunglasses?

Folks, let's just face that U.S. airlines in general operate out of more congested airports that have more bouts with mother nature than pretty much anywhere else in the world.

Folks, let's just face that U.S. airlines in general operate out of more congested airports that have more bouts with mother nature than pretty much anywhere else in the world.

OK, but let's also point out that many of the legacies are entrenched at their hubs. For many of them, the hubs they operate out of weren't congested when they setup hub operations there decades ago, and now it would be incredibly difficult to move. UA-ORD, DL-ATL, and CO-EWR come to mind.

JetBlue, on the other hand, had to have known that the JFK airspace (and the NYC-BOS corridor to some extent) was highly congested when they chose to locate their hubs. Yet they did it anyway because they wanted to skim off highly profitable routes. It's ignorance vs. stupidity.

IIRC, when jetBlue started up in 1999, JFK was vastly underserved domestically, and so the airspace there was not nearly as congested as it was today.

That's not to say that the metro NYC airspace was uncongested at the time, or that NY weather was somehow better 9 years ago....

JetBlue, on the other hand, had to have known that the JFK airspace (and the NYC-BOS corridor to some extent) was highly congested when they chose to locate their hubs. Yet they did it anyway because they wanted to skim off highly profitable routes. It's ignorance vs. stupidity.

I'm sure B6 could have set up shop in at BUF. And they'd be out of business. I recall at the time there was mocking at the thought of a domestic airline at JFK - who would go all the way out there? B6 saw the opportunity for success, and they are readying to celebrate their 10th birthday. No ignorance of stupidity there.

OK...so we're not going to consider 3/4 BOS-DEN to be a bad situation because it is too specific.

What about all the late flights from the west coast to BOS/JFK? Last night flights from SMF/OAK/SFO-JFK and LGB-IAD/BOS/JFK. All because of "weather?" I'm pretty sure none of the planes ever left the East coast.

That's a lot of flights to suffer, particularly when the weather wasn't all that bad.

Is B6 having issues with crews timing out for the month early similar to what NW had late last year?

Even more cancellations tonight. SMF-JFK and SMF-LGB are both gone tonight, as is SJC-JFK.

There has to be something more to it than just weather issues and getting crews back in to position.

I agree, something is definitely going on.

Even more cancellations tonight. SMF-JFK and SMF-LGB are both gone tonight, as is SJC-JFK.

There has to be something more to it than just weather issues and getting crews back in to position.

Add JFK-DEN to the list of cancellations tonight. Interestingly, DEN-JFK is canceled too -- the 1AM return tomorrow morning. Normallyl that plane continues onto BOS, rather than going back to JFK -- careful examination of the schedule shows this. So the BOS-DEN plane is going to turn around and become DEN-BOS tonight. The schedule doesn't allow for this very well, as BOS-DEN arrives at 1130p, but DEN-BOS leaves at 1130p. Gues that's why DEN-BOS is delayed an hour tonight, so they can turn the plane.

Here's a select list (not complete) of 7/28 cancellations for B6 - this is JUST for JFK departures. I will probably need all night to compile the JFK arrival cancellations and other cities.

0709 JFK-SJU 06:00
0071 JFK-MCO 06:00
1729 JFK-SDQ 06:00
0063 JFK-TPA 06:00
1198 JFK-ACK 06:30
0025 JFK-FLL 06:30
0141 JFK-PBI 06:35
0135 JFK-RSW 06:45
0125 JFK-DEN 07:50
0353 JFK-BUR 07:50
0201 JFK-LGB 08:30
1061 JFK-AUS 09:20
0020 JFK-ROC 09:25
0907 JFK-ORD 09:30
0787 JFK-SXM 10:30
0065 JFK-TPA 10:45
0042 JFK-SYR 11:00
1191 JFK-ACK 11:00
0073 JFK-MCO 12:25
1105 JFK-RDU 12:25
0625 JFK-HOU 13:00
0725 JFK-NAS 13:25
1089 JFK-CLT 14:55
0703 JFK-SJU 15:15
0357 JFK-BUR 16:30
1107 JFK-RDU 17:15
0173 JFK-SJC 17:55
0271 JFK-LGB 18:15
0171 JFK-SMF 19:30
0097 JFK-DEN 20:05

This is not good for conversations the flights has been cancellations due to weather. Hoipefully if B6 will expecting to bring it back normal routine. I won't worry about B6 isn't good enough long delays due to weather is awfully. How exactly B6 passengers will have reissued the ticket for next available trip. I think it need to keep more conveniient with DL is good logical choice. Its always on-time but, has no major delays due to NYC traffic controls.

Girlfriend flew JFK-LAS yesterday and they had a 20-minute delay to wait for a dead head crew, so I believe part of the lingering problem from Sunday was crews out of position.

You guys must think there is some conspiracy, come on now.

Girlfriend flew JFK-LAS yesterday and they had a 20-minute delay to wait for a dead head crew, so I believe part of the lingering problem from Sunday was crews out of position.

You guys must think there is some conspiracy, come on now.
The only thing that I think is possibly a conspiracy is B6 suggesting that all delays are "weather" if they are actually due to an inability to schedule crews or get them where they need to be.

Even worse is that it seems to be taking them several days to get bodies where they need to be.

Here's a select list (not complete) of 7/28 cancellations for B6 - this is JUST for JFK departures. I will probably need all night to compile the JFK arrival cancellations and other cities.

That is more than 10% of the flights out of JFK (~30/~250). :eek:

I am planning on going to Pittburgh in March and may assumption is that if that if there is any weather on the day I am to fly , I will not make the trip.
I may fly B6 or a regional jet (maybe DL or AA) but my expectation is that if there is bad weather the flight will get cancelled. To minimize my financial risk I will not prepay my hotel room . One must lower the expectations when traveling (on any airline). Assume the worst and hope for the best (of course if I were travelling to a cruise I would get their a day or 2 early to avoid having to swim to the ship).

Assume the worst and hope for the best (of course if I were travelling to a cruise I would get their a day or 2 early to avoid having to swim to the ship).

This is good advice generally.

Nobody thinks that there is a conspiracy, at most, inability. That is, inability to recover with irregular ops, and inability of PR to control the information flow.




You guys must think there is some conspiracy, come on now.

Looks like things are back to normal today, 7/29.

It's amazing how it takes 2 days to get things back on track.

Basiclly if it is raining out do not fly.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=849844

Basiclly if it is raining out do not fly.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=849844

That person departed 4 hours late. Not 4 days late. @:-)

Basiclly if it is raining out do not fly.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=849844

A little case in study in how the big boy airlines operate.

This morning, the future mother-in-law of Hobo13 and her 2 friends were flying to a conference DTW-DEN-SMF. Their DTW-DEN flight has a broken window and the flight is canceled (after they had boarded). UA auto-rebooks her on an evening flight DTW-ORD-SMF. She'll get in 10 hours late, but the conference doesn't start till tomorrow. Not a disaster, by any means, but maybe I can help UA do better. I get on the horn with the Premier Exec line and ask for them to be Rule 240 (i.e. interlined) over to another carrier to get them there faster. The UA agent starts working. Turns out, UA has also canceled a DTW-ORD flight this morning! So both west-bound-hub morning flights out of DTW have canceled, leaving the place in a bit of disarray.

I suggest routings on CO,DL,NW. All full. It's a busy summer day. In fact, almost everything out of DTW going west is full, or the connection onto to SMF is full. The agent suggests taking AA for DTW-ORD then connecting with an earlier UA flight ORD-SMF. It'll get them in at 730 pm, later than expected, but still better than the 11pm of the auto-rebook engine. We take it. I thank her profusely. Mother-in-law is currently touring the ORD airport getting from the AA area to the UA area..... but with 3 hours, she'll have time. The report I got was that UA-DTW was more than happy to get her moved over to AA so they had 3 less people to deal with!

Folks, this is how it's supposed to work. It really is that simple. For most of the legacies, this stuff happens all the time and you never hear about it! UA out of DTW goes to three hubs, and two of them had canceled flights, yet they still are going to get a lot of pax to their destination on the same day!

Now imagine how this would have played out on B6? What happens when B6 cancels xxx-BOS and xxx-JFK? game over. Come again tomorrow. Or the next day.

For long term survival, B6 should try to agree on interline agreements. B6 cannot survive as an "upscale vacation liner." B6 needs to attract business pax. B-pax want reliability. Without them, it's gonna be really difficult.

As a side note, the entrance of CO into *A makes B6 less attractive to LH. CO has a big presence around NYC and will be at once the largest *A carrier in that area. No more need to codeshare with B6 @ JFK.

Now that CO will have PTV on their 737NG planes , B6's advantage is lost and since B6 does not have the computing power to handle irregular ops (and it tends to snow in February). Knowing the CO will handle snow storms better
(although EWR also gets screwed). The problem is that B6 is trying to run a medium sized airline with small airline technology. But until people vote with their wallets and switch airlines nothing will need to be done. (With 80% load factors perhaps this is not an important issue). Thats one of the risks of flying on a smaller size carrier. I may still fly them but I will seriously consider continental.

A little case in study in how the big boy airlines operate.

This morning, the future mother-in-law of Hobo13 and her 2 friends were flying to a conference DTW-DEN-SMF. Their DTW-DEN flight has a broken window and the flight is canceled (after they had boarded). UA auto-rebooks her on an evening flight DTW-ORD-SMF. She'll get in 10 hours late, but the conference doesn't start till tomorrow. Not a disaster, by any means, but maybe I can help UA do better. I get on the horn with the Premier Exec line and ask for them to be Rule 240 (i.e. interlined) over to another carrier to get them there faster. The UA agent starts working. Turns out, UA has also canceled a DTW-ORD flight this morning! So both west-bound-hub morning flights out of DTW have canceled, leaving the place in a bit of disarray.

I suggest routings on CO,DL,NW. All full. It's a busy summer day. In fact, almost everything out of DTW going west is full, or the connection onto to SMF is full. The agent suggests taking AA for DTW-ORD then connecting with an earlier UA flight ORD-SMF. It'll get them in at 730 pm, later than expected, but still better than the 11pm of the auto-rebook engine. We take it. I thank her profusely. Mother-in-law is currently touring the ORD airport getting from the AA area to the UA area..... but with 3 hours, she'll have time. The report I got was that UA-DTW was more than happy to get her moved over to AA so they had 3 less people to deal with!

Folks, this is how it's supposed to work. It really is that simple. For most of the legacies, this stuff happens all the time and you never hear about it! UA out of DTW goes to three hubs, and two of them had canceled flights, yet they still are going to get a lot of pax to their destination on the same day!

Now imagine how this would have played out on B6? What happens when B6 cancels xxx-BOS and xxx-JFK? game over. Come again tomorrow. Or the next day.

I really can't argue with that - it's a good example.

As a side note, the entrance of CO into *A makes B6 less attractive to LH. CO has a big presence around NYC and will be at once the largest *A carrier in that area. No more need to codeshare with B6 @ JFK.

To continue with your sidenote, I agree that CO joining *A will have an effect on future cooperation between LH/B6 which is most probably why we haven't heard the same rhetoric coming from Deutschland recently. However, LH's intention in becoming majority owner of BMI leads to many possiblities as it relates to Open Skies. As BMI currently has no US flights it is all pure speculation but I think the two would get along swimmingly, as the Brits say.

Any opinions from the Motherland, dieuwer2?

Now that CO will have PTV on their 737NG planes , B6's advantage is lost and since B6 does not have the computing power to handle irregular ops (and it tends to snow in February). Knowing the CO will handle snow storms better
(although EWR also gets screwed). The problem is that B6 is trying to run a medium sized airline with small airline technology. But until people vote with their wallets and switch airlines nothing will need to be done. (With 80% load factors perhaps this is not an important issue). Thats one of the risks of flying on a smaller size carrier. I may still fly them but I will seriously consider continental.

CO's implementation will be starting in January '09 but it is going to take some time to get all the planes through the LiveTV hanger and the TVs installed. Also, it is going to cost you $6 unless you're riding in the big seats up front.

I agree on the point of running an airline on software that can't support the size of the operation. I vaguely remember that one of the reasons there is no interlining is that their current software doesn't support it - I thought I heard that at the DO - but I'm not positive. Their software apparently also doesn't support a double connection, so once SMF-JFK gets canceled, for example getting from Sacramento out to a number of currently accessible destinations will disappear since they'll not be accessible as non-stops from SMF.

To continue with your sidenote, I agree that CO joining *A will have an effect on future cooperation between LH/B6 which is most probably why we haven't heard the same rhetoric coming from Deutschland recently. However, LH's intention in becoming majority owner of BMI leads to many possiblities as it relates to Open Skies. As BMI currently has no US flights it is all pure speculation but I think the two would get along swimmingly, as the Brits say.

Any opinions from the Motherland, dieuwer2?

I'm sure that the folks over at bmi will be surprised to learn that their MAN-LAS and MAN-ORD flights don't ever arrive in the USA. ;)

I see no reason that LH is going to scale back particularly on the B6 partnership. They operate a LOT of flights into JFK and CO is closing that station. They can certainly leverage both partners and provide more options to their customers since they have the options.

I'm sure that the folks over at bmi will be surprised to learn that their MAN-LAS and MAN-ORD flights don't ever arrive in the USA. ;)

I see no reason that LH is going to scale back particularly on the B6 partnership. They operate a LOT of flights into JFK and CO is closing that station. They can certainly leverage both partners and provide more options to their customers since they have the options.


Oops!:o

I was clicking around their route map at all the usual east coast suspects and all of them operated as codeshare w/ UA. The 330 has legs. Thanks for the correction.

Certainly, B6 will remain a god prospect for the areas in which they are strong from the Northeast and possibly, from MCO. From the NE to Florida/Caribbean makes good sense. You're right that it's not a case of one or the other but the reciprocation that is possible will be spread out a little more than I previously thought.

BMI will be/is coveted for the LHR slots and LH making their play for them will give them the 2cd largest position in LHR behind BA. Interesting to see how all these intricacies play out over the next couple-few years as Open Skies gets defined not by the rule of law, as it already has been, but how the airlines strategically approach it.

Any opinions from the Motherland, dieuwer2?

Is this some sort of racist remark??

:confused:

No. I thought I recalled something from one of your posts about being from Germany and thought you mat have some insight from there. Was I wrong?

As far as a racist remark, I'm not sure how my question could be interpreted as such, but I am more than willing to discuss it. PM me if you'd like.

I'm dutch and live in Boston for 5 years now. As a LEGAL immigrant.

Not racist... Didn't sound like it... Let's move on. ;)

Not racist... Didn't sound like it... Let's move on. ;)

Agreed, I think we have a simple misunderstanding here.