Well, my fiance's flight from BOS-DEN was cancelled for tonight. The earliest they could accommodate him was 24 hours from now on the same flight tomorrow. This does not inspire much confidence, as this flight has been delayed for three of the last four nights by three hours or more, and now tonight's is cancelled. And this is just one flight of many that's been disrupted in BOS and JFK this weekend. I know there's weather, and no one can help the weather. But this is seriously gumming up the works for JetBlue.
As he was at the counter, the agent made this comment to him: "I hope this doesn't turn into another Valentine's Day."
Talk about inspiring trust in your airline!! So everytime there's weather, I need to worry about a repeat of the worst customer service experience in recent airline memory? The experience that prompted government response it was so bad?
I'm a person who likes to give the benefit of the doubt. I get that there's weather. But it's absolutely no excuse for having a complete systematic meltdown everytime the runway's wet.
If we didn't have free award tickets to use, I'd avoid them like the plague.
My fiance opted to receive a credit to his account... and rebook on United for next weekend, on carrier who can get him there. Then we can take the backpacking trip we had scheduled for tomorrow. :mad:
Mimi Imferst
Jul 24, 08, 8:50 pm
Too bad they couldn't get your fiancee down to JFK. All three DEN flights have made it out today.
Surprised they didn't offer a connection to your fiancee for a morning flight to JFK and the noon departure to DEN.
ty97
Jul 24, 08, 9:09 pm
As he was at the counter, the agent made this comment to him: "I hope this doesn't turn into another Valentine's Day."
My guess would be that the agent was referring to the number of cancellations and stranded passengers from February, not the debacle where people were on planes for 6 hours prior to flights being canceled.
Hopefully your fiance will find better luck with United, since you seem to not like Jetblue. Beware that United is subject to weather delays too.
nerd
Jul 24, 08, 9:12 pm
Too bad they couldn't get your fiancee down to JFK. All three DEN flights have made it out today.
...
Surprised they didn't offer a connection to your fiancee for a morning flight to JFK and the noon departure to DEN.1) BOS-DEN departs at 9:30pm. How would they get her down to JFK in time?
2) Looks like all flights JFK-DEN are sold out tomorrow. With one flight a day on BOS-DEN, that's why re-booking involved a 24 hour delay. @:-)
Mimi Imferst
Jul 24, 08, 9:29 pm
1) BOS-DEN departs at 9:30pm. How would they get her down to JFK in time?
2) Looks like all flights JFK-DEN are sold out tomorrow. With one flight a day on BOS-DEN, that's why re-booking involved a 24 hour delay. @:-)
1) If they had ample time to notify her fiancee of the cancellation and rebook to JFK on an earlier flight.
2) OK. Didn't know they were sold out. I was aware about the 1 daily BOS-DEN, however.
Looks like they did what they could.
nerd
Jul 24, 08, 9:35 pm
Looks like they did what they could.Indeed, there was not much they could do.
JetBlueFA
Jul 24, 08, 10:20 pm
I'm going to bet that the loads between JFK-BOS where at about 100% for the last 2 days. Trying to shuttle people around to get them to their destinations. I think in the last 2 days we averaged 150 cancellations because of the massive amount of rain and thunderstorms that brewed up and down the east coast. However to refer to this as "another Valentine's Day" is uncalled for in my opinion.
JetBlueFA
Jul 24, 08, 10:25 pm
Talk about inspiring trust in your airline!! So everytime there's weather, I need to worry about a repeat of the worst customer service experience in recent airline memory? The experience that prompted government response it was so bad?
I'm a person who likes to give the benefit of the doubt. I get that there's weather. But it's absolutely no excuse for having a complete systematic meltdown everytime the runway's wet.
If we didn't have free award tickets to use, I'd avoid them like the plague.
My fiance opted to receive a credit to his account... and rebook on United for next weekend, on carrier who can get him there. Then we can take the backpacking trip we had scheduled for tomorrow. :mad:
Good luck flying any airline if this past weeks weather repeats itself, even United. I do think your post was over the top. There is no way a little rain is going to gum up out operation. Now freezing rain and aircraft and equipment not able to move around will do that. I would like to see how UA or AA handle a similiar situation, thunderstorms parked overhead, at ORD. I'm going to guess that there are going to be hundreds of cancellations and many a upset customer how now has to spend the night in the airport because they miss connected or they couldn't get out because their flight was cancelled. Rain messes up every airlines operations but to think that we are going melt down when it's raining? Have we melted down when rained in the past? Come on now....
jetBlueNYFL
Jul 25, 08, 12:51 am
It's definitely a frustrating situation, but I believe the agent over-reacted with his comment. The OP's fiance opted for a credit over a refund, showing loyalty to JetBlue.
JFK-DEN has a few open seats today. BOS-JFK might be the issue, but standby is always an option.
sbm12
Jul 25, 08, 7:28 am
It's definitely a frustrating situation, but I believe the agent over-reacted with his comment. The OP's fiance opted for a credit over a refund, showing loyalty to JetBlue.
What makes you think that a refund was offered? It might be that they were forced into the position rather than expressing their loyalty.
All carriers suffer for weather (my flight last night was 3+ hours late from ATL-EWR) thanks to weather in IAH from Dolly. But there were many other flights operating and I managed to get on one of them that got me home a few minutes before my originally scheduled flight. The more robust schedule allowed the carrier to better handle the situation. I'm quite sure that CO wouldn't have interlined me to DL or FL because of the weather issues rather than MX issues. But that is an option, too, if necessary. Or, in the case of the OP, it seems that UA would have given them IAD, ORD and SFO as options in addition to the non-stop to DEN. B6 has many fewer re-route options because of their size. That's just the way it is.
magiciansampras
Jul 25, 08, 7:45 am
Couple differences between B6 and many other carriers going on here which makes delays on B6 a bit more frustrating.
The biggest is interlining. When things go wrong on UA for me, for instance, I can convince them to put me on another airline, even for weather. This is quite helpful because while UA's flights might be full, usually someone has availability.
The second is multiple hubs. Just the other day I was supposed to fly CMH-IAD-BOS, but given weather on the East Coast, I was able to reroute CMH-ORD-BOS, thus avoiding the east coast hub for a midwest hub. This meant that I got home that night rather than stuck in CMH overnight.
It is my feeling that these two things make weather delays on B6 particularly difficult to deal with.
JetBlueFA
Jul 25, 08, 8:07 am
Couple differences between B6 and many other carriers going on here which makes delays on B6 a bit more frustrating.
The biggest is interlining. When things go wrong on UA for me, for instance, I can convince them to put me on another airline, even for weather. This is quite helpful because while UA's flights might be full, usually someone has availability.
The second is multiple hubs. Just the other day I was supposed to fly CMH-IAD-BOS, but given weather on the East Coast, I was able to reroute CMH-ORD-BOS, thus avoiding the east coast hub for a midwest hub. This meant that I got home that night rather than stuck in CMH overnight.
It is my feeling that these two things make weather delays on B6 particularly difficult to deal with.
We whee just talking about that the other day, crew and I. The only way to keep customers coming back is to get them to their destinations as close to their original time as possible or at least in the same day. Hubs are suppose to be spread out, like you said, in order to reroute people away from the weather. We were kind of thinking that that's what MCO might turn into. The BOS, NYC, DCA airspace is the most congested airspace in the world and we have 3 major operations located in each....when weather hits one of the sectors our operated goes to crud because planes aren't being aloud to enter the area.
magiciansampras
Jul 25, 08, 8:22 am
We whee just talking about that the other day, crew and I. The only way to keep customers coming back is to get them to their destinations as close to their original time as possible or at least in the same day. Hubs are suppose to be spread out, like you said, in order to reroute people away from the weather. We were kind of thinking that that's what MCO might turn into. The BOS, NYC, DCA airspace is the most congested airspace in the world and we have 3 major operations located in each....when weather hits one of the sectors our operated goes to crud because planes aren't being aloud to enter the area.
Bringing MCO in would be a big start, particularly for people that have no need to go through the Northeast.
Seat13c
Jul 25, 08, 8:52 am
I could also see AUS helping out but as a lesser version of MCO.
sbm12
Jul 25, 08, 8:53 am
Bringing MCO in would be a big start, particularly for people that have no need to go through the Northeast.
I disagree. It is too far out of the way to be particularly effective as a hub for any connecting traffic. The only other hubs that far to the "edge" of the country are AA in MIA, which is used as a Lat.Am. gateway rather than domestic connections and AS at SEA, which is used for the Alaska connections. Pretty much every other hub is well positioned to handle connecting traffic in addition to serving its non-stop routes.
Also interesting is that B6 never wanted to be a hub-and-spoke carrier, or at least they claimed they didn't. They don't necessarily need more hubs, but more destinations from existing cities and dot connections would be very helpful.
magiciansampras
Jul 25, 08, 8:55 am
Also interesting is that B6 never wanted to be a hub-and-spoke carrier, or at least they claimed they didn't. They don't necessarily need more hubs, but more destinations from existing cities and dot connections would be very helpful.
Two different goals here. One is the help prevent passengers from getting stuck (like the OP's story). The other is to expand service.
I think the hub situation has a big effect on #1.
Mimi Imferst
Jul 25, 08, 9:02 am
Couple differences between B6 and many other carriers going on here which makes delays on B6 a bit more frustrating.
While I don't disagree with you on your overall assertion, it doesn't exactly apply to this situation. In this case, a reroute through JFK, another B6 hub, was an option. The departure was late, around 9:30pm, so regardless of interlining, chances are it would have meant an overnight in BOS. (unless, B6 had knowledge of the cancellation earlier in the day) The option then to reroute through JFK on the first flight out(around 6am) and connect on the 8am departure which apparently had seats available.
The possibliities of getting stuck during wx events are higher on B6 overall and something that I totally agree they need to address. Their route network especially in the East(going both South or West with major ops in BOS, JFK, IAD) is very robust and in this situation was adequate enough to get the OP's fiancee out to DEN just as quickly as an interline would probably have been able to, about 12 hours behind schedule.
magiciansampras
Jul 25, 08, 9:05 am
The possibliities of getting stuck during wx events are higher on B6 overall and something that I totally agree they need to address. Their route network especially in the East(going both South or West with major ops in BOS, JFK, IAD) is very robust and in this situation was adequate enough to get the OP's fiancee out to DEN just as quickly as an interline would probably have been able to, about 12 hours behind schedule.
Right, but how often is it the case that if BOS is having trouble so is JFK? I've sat in BOS on ground-holds for JFK when planes bounded for ORD, MIA, etc. have taken off. My point is simply that more hubs spread out make for more options. In this particular case it might not have made much of a difference, but generally speaking I think it holds quite well.
Seat13c
Jul 25, 08, 9:09 am
I disagree. It is too far out of the way to be particularly effective as a hub for any connecting traffic. The only other hubs that far to the "edge" of the country are AA in MIA, which is used as a Lat.Am. gateway rather than domestic connections and AS at SEA, which is used for the Alaska connections. Pretty much every other hub is well positioned to handle connecting traffic in addition to serving its non-stop routes.
Also interesting is that B6 never wanted to be a hub-and-spoke carrier, or at least they claimed they didn't. They don't necessarily need more hubs, but more destinations from existing cities and dot connections would be very helpful.
IMHO, the ideal airline needs a hybrid route system. The way I look at is that it is a no brainer to do point to point routing. Its profitable and people love to fly non stop. However, its just not fesable to connect every city with every other city and do it with a proper amount of planes, frequencies, and crews (chalk it up to lack of capital, demand, competition, etc). So a certain amount of a hub and spoke system is required. It also helps with IROP reroutings.
sbm12
Jul 25, 08, 9:38 am
IMHO, the ideal airline needs a hybrid route system. The way I look at is that it is a no brainer to do point to point routing. Its profitable and people love to fly non stop. However, its just not fesable to connect every city with every other city and do it with a proper amount of planes, frequencies, and crews (chalk it up to lack of capital, demand, competition, etc). So a certain amount of a hub and spoke system is required. It also helps with IROP reroutings.
Gosh...sounds a lot like WN. :cool:
Seat13c
Jul 25, 08, 9:42 am
Gosh...sounds a lot like WN. :cool:
You have to admit that they have been very successful at it.
sbm12
Jul 25, 08, 9:54 am
You have to admit that they have been very successful at it.
Absolutely. I actually thought that was the plan for B6's route growth as well, with the "connecting the dots" talk. The difference is that WN stayed regional and built a pretty strong web and then expanded the web, rather than putting random dots in dense metro areas and then having a flight or two out to a single destination. Basically it appears that B6 looked at the plan, said that they were going to implement it and then decided not to, choosing a more hub-and-spoke based approach instead. It isn't completely a hub-and-spoke system, but it is much closer to that than anything else.
Mimi Imferst
Jul 25, 08, 10:24 am
Absolutely. I actually thought that was the plan for B6's route growth as well, with the "connecting the dots" talk. The difference is that WN stayed regional and built a pretty strong web and then expanded the web, rather than putting random dots in dense metro areas and then having a flight or two out to a single destination. Basically it appears that B6 looked at the plan, said that they were going to implement it and then decided not to, choosing a more hub-and-spoke based approach instead. It isn't completely a hub-and-spoke system, but it is much closer to that than anything else.
It also seems they went to where their customers wanted them to with disregard to the overall "network" and the effect that would have on economies of scale and effeciency. They have since, beginning with the ouster of Neeleman, returned to process that places importance on the "network" first. The fact that Jetblue's big revenue centers lie out on the coasts also hampers the amount of connectivity available in their overall network, but we have seen over the last 2 years cities like RIC, CLT, RDU, SYR, BUF, AUS etc become stations that connect to 2, if not more "hubs". (BTW- I include AUS here, but as it serves so many many B6 hubs LGB, BOS, JFK, MCO and FLL maybe it should be considered a "hub" in itself?) This can partly be attributed to the 190's but it also attributed to a change in mindset, I believe. I would expect all expansion over the next year or two to continue in this manner, excepting new international destinations.
Seat13c
Jul 25, 08, 10:44 am
It also seems they went to where their customers wanted them to with disregard to the overall "network" and the effect that would have on economies of scale and effeciency. They have since, beginning with the ouster of Neeleman, returned to process that places importance on the "network" first. The fact that Jetblue's big revenue centers lie out on the coasts also hampers the amount of connectivity available in their overall network, but we have seen over the last 2 years cities like RIC, CLT, RDU, SYR, BUF, AUS etc become stations that connect to 2, if not more "hubs". (BTW- I include AUS here, but as it serves so many many B6 hubs LGB, BOS, JFK, MCO and FLL maybe it should be considered a "hub" in itself?) This can partly be attributed to the 190's but it also attributed to a change in mindset, I believe. I would expect all expansion over the next year or two to continue in this manner, excepting new international destinations.
I could see a lot the dot to dot expansion happening with both MCO and AUS. AUS will pick up a lot of east to west routes and MCO will continue to grow as a carribean gateway as well as being the leisure destination that it is.
jetBlueNYFL
Jul 25, 08, 10:58 am
What makes you think that a refund was offered? It might be that they were forced into the position rather than expressing their loyalty.
From the OP:
My fiance opted to receive a credit to his account
From http://www.jetblue.com/JetblueAlerts/WeatherUpdate.aspx (The Northeast Weather Travel Alert at the top of JetBlue's web site):
Operations Update
Last Updated: 7/25/2008 6:00:00 AM EST
Inclement weather and air traffic control delays in the Northeast may result in flight disruptions today. Be sure to check the status of your flight online before leaving for the airport.
If your flight has been cancelled, you may move to a new flight without a fee or fare difference by clicking the "Rebook without fee" button below. Alternatively, you may request a refund or a credit for the full value of your itinerary.
Mimi Imferst
Jul 25, 08, 10:58 am
I could see a lot the dot to dot expansion happening with both MCO and AUS. AUS will pick up a lot of east to west routes and MCO will continue to grow as a carribean gateway as well as being the leisure destination that it is.
Sounds like a good bet to me. AUS, the new transcon. :( On the other hand, it will allow service to markets that probably can't support(revenue-wise) non-stop service. ie SAN-FLL, LGB-MCO, SFO-FLL/MCO, SEA-FLL/MCO, SAN-IAD(?), LAS-IAD(?). The last two are already served nonstop on the 320, I believe, but are being reduced in the low season. Maybe they would work better daily on the 190? Speculation is fun, but the deferral of half (iiRC) the 190's for the next two years may make these routes less likely.
Mimi Imferst
Jul 25, 08, 11:02 am
"If your flight has been cancelled, you may move to a new flight without a fee or fare difference by clicking the "Rebook without fee" button below. Alternatively, you may request a refund or a credit for the full value of your itinerary."
Is this the industry norm?
magiciansampras
Jul 25, 08, 11:05 am
"If your flight has been cancelled, you may move to a new flight without a fee or fare difference by clicking the "Rebook without fee" button below. Alternatively, you may request a refund or a credit for the full value of your itinerary."
Is this the industry norm?
In my experience, yes.
jetBlueNYFL
Jul 25, 08, 11:08 am
Is this the industry norm?[/QUOTE]
Off the top of my head, without digging into pages upon pages of IROP rebooking info, airlines usually offer these options during major events such as a hurricane. However, I believe that in most cases, such as summer thunderstorms, JetBlue is unique in offering a credit card refund as an option - part of the customer service philosophy. I guess it somewhat compensates for lack of interlining.
Also, I agree with the overall consensus in this thread regarding the inability to re-route customers through other hubs. But, at the same time, more and more re-routing possibilies have been made aavilable, as a great deal of connecting the dots has occurred. Expect to see a lot more connecting the dots, as new cities in this oil environment is unlikely.
sbm12
Jul 25, 08, 11:23 am
From the OP:
I assumed that was instead of rebooking on the flight the following day, not instead of a cash refund.
nerd
Jul 25, 08, 11:25 am
However, I believe that in most cases, such as summer thunderstorms, JetBlue is unique in offering a credit card refund as an option - part of the customer service philosophy. I guess it somewhat compensates for lack of interlining.I think most, if not all airlines will give you a refund if weather screws up the schedule badly enough to render your trip pointless - commonly called the "trip in vain" clause. This is not unique to JetBlue.
magiciansampras
Jul 25, 08, 11:26 am
However, I believe that in most cases, such as summer thunderstorms, JetBlue is unique in offering a credit card refund as an option - part of the customer service philosophy. I guess it somewhat compensates for lack of interlining.
Umm this is 100% wrong. I've never had trouble getting a credit card refund for a weather cancellation before.
ty97
Jul 25, 08, 11:35 am
Sounds like a good bet to me. AUS, the new transcon. :(
Hey now, no sad face! If you have to hub, AUS is a great airport to have to do it at.
Mimi Imferst
Jul 25, 08, 12:53 pm
:)
You got me wrong. I'm just pining for the non-stop transcons that seem to be going the way of the dinosaurs. I have been through/to AUS before and if there was anywhere that I had to connect through, AUS would be the best choice in general. Hope your travel options keep improving.
"Keep Austin Wierd!"
hobo13
Jul 25, 08, 3:09 pm
OK, I'm the fiance in question here..... :D The, OP, a.k.a. the future Mrs. Hobo13, started this thread while I was still transiting home from the airport on my failed trip.
To clarify a couple of things.
1. I was indeed offered to fly via JFK today. That was a very unattractive option for me, as I had no interest in getting stranded in JFK in case the alluded to meltdown occurred. The agent said there were only two seats left on that route, so I'm sure many/most pax were not given this option. It just so happened I was checking in very early for the flight, and was already in line to check bags when the cancellation hit. But for the record, I *could* have done this.
2. Instead, I asked to be protected on today's non-stop while I decided if I wanted to continue with the trip.
3. We decided that since it would screw up our weekend plans, we would just defer the trip to the future. I called B6 when I got home to make the change. This trip was on 2x TrueBlue passes, i.e. a round-trip. Therefore, getting credit meant redepositing the passes into my account. Apparently, they don't like to do this, and would rather have rebooked the trip instantly. But I didn't have a use in mind. An exception was made. That was nice of them. Fighting through Level 1 phone support to actually get to a TrueBlue agent was not fun.
Now here's where the story gets better:
JetBlue just canceled TONIGHT'S BOS-DEN. So they've lost two BOS-DEN's on successive nights, and that's after the previous two left very late. They had lots of cancellations yesterday in/out of BOS. Is it a mini-meltdown as the counter agent suggested? Depends on your definition. I'm sure there are a lot of disgruntled people in Boston (and Denver) right now. I've always said that JetBlue is a fine airline to fly 'when the sun is shining'. Well, TODAY the sun is shining, and they still can't get their birds in the air.
I'm honestly tired of hearing cheerleaders who proclaim that JetBlue prefers to delay flights rather than cancel them -- it simply is NOT true.
JetBlueFA
Jul 25, 08, 3:49 pm
I'm honestly tired of hearing cheerleaders who proclaim that JetBlue prefers to delay flights rather than cancel them -- it simply is NOT true.
No longer is that the case. We will cancel flights to protect the operation now. When we were littler we could delay the flights and the operations wouldn't suffer. However if we continue to do that we will have crews out of position and crews running into legality situations. That is what screwed over the customers last year. The company truely learned from that and the chances of it happening again are near 0. What I find really humorus is that when we start cancelling flights because of delays or weather people immediately jump to the "JetBlue is melting down run!!!" That get's me every time.
magiciansampras
Jul 25, 08, 3:51 pm
JetBlue just canceled TONIGHT'S BOS-DEN. So they've lost two BOS-DEN's on successive nights, and that's after the previous two left very late. They had lots of cancellations yesterday in/out of BOS. Is it a mini-meltdown as the counter agent suggested? Depends on your definition. I'm sure there are a lot of disgruntled people in Boston (and Denver) right now. I've always said that JetBlue is a fine airline to fly 'when the sun is shining'. Well, TODAY the sun is shining, and they still can't get their birds in the air.
Weather is beautiful in BOS right now. What was their excuse?
hobo13
Jul 25, 08, 4:02 pm
Weather is beautiful in BOS right now. What was their excuse?
No idea. It was the automated phone-call, apparently because I still show up as having a reservation for tonight.
Yesterday, the counter agent's excuse was 'we can't get any crew to come in to fly the plane due to the weather.' I didn't pursue it, but it struck me then as a fairly odd wording. I understand that sometimes the crew is stranded in another city of course. 'Not being able to get them to come in because of the weather' sounds like the typical excuses I hear around the office the first snowstorm in Boston each year! Of course, I don't think that's what she meant, but to many pax, it would sure sound as though the pilot wanted to stay at home where it's dry rather than come fly to Denver.
JetBlueFA
Jul 25, 08, 4:51 pm
Here's what usually happens, not sure what is going on tonight.
East Coast is socked in with weather. Instead of delaying flights waiting for inbound aircraft System Operations will pull a spare plane from th ramp and crew it with a standby crew and send the plane out. So now we don't have any crews left in Boston at the airport and those at home have to get to the airport yet. So we really can't get crews to come in to work the flight. Unfortuantly in order to protect the operation and flights earlier in the day the evening flights might suffe. I'll dig around and see what happened today if I can.
Mimi Imferst
Jul 25, 08, 5:43 pm
Is it a mini-meltdown as the counter agent suggested?
I didn't get that impression from the OP. I took away that the agent said I hope this isn't going to be another Valentine's Day.
Regardless, I empathize with your situation but I think we sill see this continue to the point that we extrapolate this meltdown term out from "mini" to "miniscule" to "microscopic" to (what's next)!?! "Is this 1.5 hour taxi at JFK a micro-meltdown? Depends on your definition." Stuff happens. Not just at Jetblue or airlines in general, but everywhere. It's not what happens to us, but how we handle them. I'll save my meltdown talk for my ice cream.
hobo13
Jul 25, 08, 7:01 pm
Stuff happens. Not just at Jetblue or airlines in general, but everywhere. It's not what happens to us, but how we handle them.
BOS-DEN on JetBlue this week, from Flight Aware. Note this flight is scheduled to leave at 935pm, arrive at 1135pm.
July 24 and July 25 canceled so I assume Flight Aware is showing the last posted schedule before the cancellation occured. Their best effort of the past week was a 25 minute delay. Let's call that on-time, as it happens to all airlines. What about the rest?
Now here's United 465, BOS-DEN, 520pm departure, arrival 820pm.
Is United perfect? Heck no. Are they consistent? Yes. Very. Head over to the UA board and you'll see that this is common. But still, United's worst performance over this span was a 20 minute delayed arrival! That's not bad. Ironically, it's about the same as JetBlue's best.
This flight leaves in the middle of the evening crunch of getting out of Boston. I would assume that more flights are leaving between 4-8pm, than between 8-midnight, so ATC should affect United more than JetBlue.
Now before I'm accused of cherry-picking stats, I will acknowledge that United did cancel at least one BOS-DEN flights over this time period. (Probably more.) I chose the 520pm flight as it is the most comparable to the JetBlue flight, in terms of scheduling. i.e. if I was not on JetBlue's 935pm, I would be on UA's 520pm. Moreover, there's a huge difference between canceling a mid-day flight (like UA did at least once over this time span), and canceling the final flight of the day, which is what JetBlue did. When earlier flights are canceled, pax can be accommodated, possibly on non-stops, or at worst, through other hubs. When the final (only) flight of the day is scrubbed, you send folks home.
So is this a mini-meltdown? When only 1 out of the last 5 flights on a key route for your airline was successful, I'd say it's getting there. When the competition seems to be able to fly that route with minimal delays in the same crappy weather, you've got to start to worry. Maybe now I'm starting to understand why United no longer is matching JetBlue's prices on this route -- they don't need to.
dieuwer2
Jul 25, 08, 7:30 pm
Any airline will cancel a flight if scheduling thinks it's in their best interest.
The moment there are huge fines and compulsory compensations involved (think Europe), airlines will fly no matter the weather.
bmg42000
Jul 25, 08, 8:17 pm
Actually if you got to New York would Jetblue pay for you to take a train to Boston? I know someone who had booked B6 from Pittsburgh to JFK . (and when the flight was cancelled in the morning (along with DL/AA to NYC) they took a bus to New York (they were trying to catch an international flight).
Mimi Imferst
Jul 25, 08, 9:26 pm
Is United perfect? Heck no. Are they consistent? Yes. Very. Head over to the UA board and you'll see that this is common. But still, United's worst performance over this span was a 20 minute delayed arrival! That's not bad. Ironically, it's about the same as JetBlue's best.
Moreover, there's a huge difference between canceling a mid-day flight (like UA did at least once over this time span), and canceling the final flight of the day, which is what JetBlue did.
So is this a mini-meltdown? When only 1 out of the last 5 flights on a key route for your airline was successful, I'd say it's getting there. When the competition seems to be able to fly that route with minimal delays in the same crappy weather, you've got to start to worry.
Consistency is wonderful. If only it could happen all the time.
What if the weather event stretched across the midwest from say Chicago to BOS, so that we had some comparison to the effect on United's network. Luckily for United their network is nowhere near as invested in the Northeast as Jetblue's is, unluckily for you in this case.
I agree that is a bit nonsensical to cancel a flight like DEN, once daily as it is, especially 2 nights in a row. BTW, a check of the departures board shows 2 flights cancelled, one being the DEN, the other MCO.
Mini-meltdown again!! What the hell does it mean. Let me look it up in my airline terminology dictionary: mini-meltdown = A term that may be tossed about at any opportune moment to disguise a service disruption as the end of the world.
All joking aside, if Jetblue doesn't cancel flights, it leads to Valentine's Day. Jetblue does cancel flights, it must be a mini-meltdown.
Like I said, B6's network was pummeled for 2 days in their 2 largest hubs. Their exposure to this weather was 10x larger than United, an airline that is about 10x larger than B6. Go fig.
Mimi Imferst
Jul 25, 08, 9:41 pm
Is United perfect? Heck no. Are they consistent? Yes. Very.
Mini-meltdown again!! What the hell does it mean. Let me look it up in my airline terminology dictionary: mini-meltdown = A term that may be tossed about at any opportune moment to disguise a service disruption as the end of the world.
All joking aside, if Jetblue doesn't cancel flights, it leads to Valentine's Day. Jetblue does cancel flights, it must be a mini-meltdown.
To be fair though, B6 did have a meltdown in the past. I don't think it is unreasonable for passengers to question whether or not it is happening again, particularly when a gate agent mentions it.
hobo13
Jul 25, 08, 10:33 pm
What if the weather event stretched across the midwest from say Chicago to BOS, so that we had some comparison to the effect on United's network.
My point was only to show that these issues were not related to Boston weather, in and of itself. United has ORD and DEN as hubs... it's hard to have worst weather cities than that, particularly with winter snow and summer T-storms. But UA has *never* failed to get me where I'm going for 2 straight days. And moreover, this was actually rain! Lots of it, sure, but enough to cripple an airline? C'mon. Was it even raining hard here on 7/18? -- I wasn't around. If so, perhaps I should start building my ark! With an on-time arrival performance as poor as Flight Aware shows, it seems to me that JetBlue is really trying to over-schedule their fleet. A little more slop in the schedule might help.
Honestly, I'm not upset by this much at all. They got me taken care of, eventually, to my satisfaction. But then again, it wasn't critical that I get there this weekend. To me, it's more comical, and a good academic debate, about whether JetBlue really is a premium airline as many of my fellow posters here believe. I see flying them about like flying AirTran -- I'll probably get where I'm going, but it might take awhile. And I shouldn't expect any special treatment or accommodation along the way. I cannot suggest reroutes, request to be interlined, or offer to fly obtuse routings to get me where I'm going. In short, I could never recommend JetBlue to my business traveling friends based simply on the reliability aspect.
JetBlueFA
Jul 25, 08, 10:53 pm
I'm sure the ticket agents are screaming for it but management is slow to respond to it. I'm sure glad that I had the option when I was a ticket agent. Interlining helps a grea deal with customer retention. As you and others have stated, for some reason we don't want to do it. It was so easy, when a flight was delayed for what ever reason, to appologize to them and then tell them you can get them to thei destination pretty close to the same time but via another carrier. When I was working as a ticket agent for another airline I always loved having that option. How late was the flight going to be? Will it affect connections? If it did I would simply pull up UA, AA, DL, or NW and see what availability they had and if necessary Rule 120.20 the customer over to the other airline. It may sound harsh but in my opinion that was one less customer I had to deal with and allowed me to concentrate on others. Not only that but in some off handed way it may have looked to the customer that I cared about them and getting them where they needed to be. Again in reality I wanted them out of my hair because the flight was delayed. Interlining helps to retain customers but for some reason we don't want to start. We aren't WN where we can reroute a customer through BWI, BNA, and STL to get them to PHX. We have JFK and when JFK does to crud so does all hope of getting cutomers out in a timely fashion.
I really hope that made sense and didn't make me look really really dumb
ty97
Jul 26, 08, 2:58 am
To be fair though, B6 did have a meltdown in the past. I don't think it is unreasonable for passengers to question whether or not it is happening again, particularly when a gate agent mentions it.
Though this poster is claiming a mini-meltldown based on the performance of the one flight (BOS-DEN). That's some tough criteria right there.
hobo13
Jul 26, 08, 9:01 am
Though this poster is claiming a mini-meltldown based on the performance of the one flight (BOS-DEN). That's some tough criteria right there.
Uh, actually not. JetBlue canceled many flights out of BOS (and NY) over the past few days. 4 canceled in the short time I was at the airport alone.
Yes, I cited the stats for BOS-DEN only. (Do you really want me to fill this thread with the entire B6 network statistics for the past week? I bet they ain't pretty.) BOS-DEN is a key route for both B6 and UA. It was one of the inaugural routes when B6 started flying out of BOS. Presumably, that's because it's got a high yield.
hobo13
Jul 26, 08, 9:23 am
I'm sure the ticket agents are screaming for it but management is slow to respond to it. I'm sure glad that I had the option when I was a ticket agent. Interlining helps a grea deal with customer retention. As you and others have stated, for some reason we don't want to do it. It was so easy, when a flight was delayed for what ever reason, to appologize to them and then tell them you can get them to thei destination pretty close to the same time but via another carrier. When I was working as a ticket agent for another airline I always loved having that option. How late was the flight going to be? Will it affect connections? If it did I would simply pull up UA, AA, DL, or NW and see what availability they had and if necessary Rule 120.20 the customer over to the other airline. It may sound harsh but in my opinion that was one less customer I had to deal with and allowed me to concentrate on others. Not only that but in some off handed way it may have looked to the customer that I cared about them and getting them where they needed to be. Again in reality I wanted them out of my hair because the flight was delayed. Interlining helps to retain customers but for some reason we don't want to start. We aren't WN where we can reroute a customer through BWI, BNA, and STL to get them to PHX. We have JFK and when JFK does to crud so does all hope of getting cutomers out in a timely fashion.
This actually makes a lot of sense. And it helps me to explain my frustration with JetBlue a little easier.
On legacy airlines, I feel a bit more in control of the situation. I know perhaps 10x more about how air travel works than the average pax. I can recite every hub city of every legacy, and because I tend to fly the same routes over and over again, I tend to know which hubs connects to that city I'm going to, and maybe even the time of departure. (Yea, I'm a big geek!) This enables me to stand at the counter, or at the gate, and suggest reroutes to help out the GA. Many many times during irrop (or VDB situations), I've helped a GA find a routing to my final destination that s/he hadn't thought of using carriers that they normally don't deal with. I've been told by GA's that they'll check routes as fast as I can rattle off possible connection points. One even suggested that I come around and look at the terminal with him!
This accomplishes two things: on one hand, it shows the GA/TA that I'm willing to help find a solution, rather than just yell at them for canceling/delaying a flight and blowing my connection, and secondly, it shows me that the airline truly does care about getting me to where I'm going. Even if it fails, I leave knowing that I did the best I could, and the GA/TA did the best they could.
With JetBlue, none of this happens. I show up to the airport, and I either get on the plane, or I go back home. I cannot help the TA/GA, and they cannot help me. As you say, it leaves both of us frustrated. Empowering the customer (and the employee) is key. Instead, when I fly JetBlue, I feel like there's nothing I can do -- I'm forced to take what they offer.
ty97
Jul 26, 08, 9:30 am
Uh, actually not. JetBlue canceled many flights out of BOS (and NY) over the past few days. 4 canceled in the short time I was at the airport alone.
My point here is that you are using a *very* small sample size (i.e. your personal experience). No doubt it's been annoying to you, and no doubt there have been other problems in the network.
Earlier in this thread, you complained about 'cheerleaders'. You are coming off as the exact antithesis of that - an 'uncheerleader', if you will.
hobo13
Jul 26, 08, 9:40 am
Earlier in this thread, you complained about 'cheerleaders'. You are coming off as the exact antithesis of that - an 'uncheerleader', if you will.
Haha, that is a very good observation. :) And you might be right, although I would consider myself more of a realist. I acknowledge that JetBlue is a fine airline to fly if there are no irrops and you don't care about rewards much. It's when the stuff hits the fan that they are worse than average.
Trust me, the first time that United fails to get a single plane from Boston to Denver for two straight days (during the summer no less), you can be sure I'll uncheerlead for them too!
BearX220
Jul 27, 08, 2:00 am
Interlining helps to retain customers but for some reason we don't want to start. We aren't WN where we can reroute a customer through BWI, BNA, and STL to get them to PHX. We have JFK and when JFK does to crud so does all hope of getting cutomers out in a timely fashion.
On legacy airlines, I feel a bit more in control of the situation... With JetBlue... I show up to the airport, and I either get on the plane, or I go back home. These two posts sum up the big, basic JetBlue problem vis-a-vis customer confidence. Refusal to interline during irrops makes any airline a second-choice carrier in my eyes. When that airline network's single point of failure is the most fraught, screwed-up airspace in the nation, it's twice as bad. And when you live at the end of a long spoke, as I do, with slim frequencies and full loads, it's worse still.
The legacies can wreck your day as badly as anyone, but they usually don't tell you to go away and come back in 24 hours, or 48, or not at all. When Saturday morning's SEA-JFK was cancelled because the prior evening's JFK-SEA never left, displacing 150 people, how many of them can possibly hope to get back east on JetBlue out of SEA within a reasonable time? I'd like to know how many just gave up.
For a business traveler that makes B6 pretty much a non-starter. Most of us no longer schedule travel the same day as a business commitment on any airline. But you can't book a Monday ticket knowing you might have to choose between actually getting there Wednesday, buying an on-the-spot full-freight ticket on a competitor at 3X the price, or just forgetting about it.
So I get a little weary of B6 apologists responding to every JetBlue wx-irrops story with the retort that UA/AA at ORD, or CO at EWR, are no picnic either. It's true, but in those cases you have a more robust network on your side, and much more confidence. That's why a legacy can cancel a higher percentage of flights than B6 and still be better at getting you where you're going. On B6 the impact of a single cancellation is worse.
As it is, the only trips you can book on JetBlue without trepidation are the ones where it really doesn't matter if you go or not. My family and I are going out to BOS in a couple of weeks for a Red Sox weekend... we're coming home on JetBlue, because it really doesn't matter if we get stuck in Boston or New York for 24 more hours, but we're going out on Delta. The Fenway tickets are paid for and I can't risk the uncertainty of B6.
JMG5575
Jul 27, 08, 12:05 pm
The problem I saw on the night of the 23rd with the weather at JFK, was that the Jetblue staff wasn't ready to respond to the throngs of angry passengers. They were defensive as if they still felt the embarassment of Valentines day. It didn't help people's moods that Terminmal 6 is old, not well air-conditioned and very overcrowded. I can't wait for T5.
But on that night, I was on Flight 359 to BUR. We were boarded at 6pm. We did not pull back from the gate until 7pm. Then we sat on the tarmac for 4 hours. I know that Jetblue doesn't control ATC. But inside the plane people were begining to panic and "freak out" due to the heat, lack of food, etc.
Then the pilot came out and took a vote, saying that the Customer Bill of Rights forces him to go back to the gate after 4 hours, but since we were first in line for takeoff, he didn't want to do that. So the vote was taken and many of us just wanted to stay in line and get out of JFK, but enough angry people demanded to get off the plane. So we taxied back to the gate. The pilot said we would refuel and try again. Then 5 mins later, he said "the company" called and said they were cancelling the flight.
At this point, I know it is all ATC's fault but since JetBlue made the call to cancel they need to be prepared to help the frustrated passengers of a full flight, that just sat for 5 hours. But instead of having people there to help, we got off the plane at the temporary terminal and there was no gate agent. The FA told us to go back to the main terminal or call the 800 number. That meant the shuttle bus back. Of course at 11pm at night, the counter was understaffed and the line was several hundred people. I called the 800 number and instead of the 2 min wait it was a 30 min wait. After securing a hotel room, I finally got through and was told that the BUR flights were sold out for the next day and the day after that.
At this point it would have been helpful for them to assist getting me another flight on a different airline or a hotel, etc. But instead I had to book a flight on my own the next day on Virgin America, for a high 1 way fare.
Then I got an email from jetblue saying that since everything was weather related, our 5 hour delay in the plane would not be compensated.
I fly jetblue weekly and love the airline, but situations like this need to be handled better. They can't let thunderstorms and lack of latenight staff piss off so many passengers.
sbm12
Jul 27, 08, 12:11 pm
the Customer Bill of Rights forces him to go back to the gate after 4 hours,
...
since everything was weather related, our 5 hour delay in the plane would not be compensated.
Gotta love the passenger bill of rights that actually impairs service quality. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the BoR is a marketing gimmick and it not a good thing for the customers.
JMG5575
Jul 27, 08, 12:18 pm
Gotta love the passenger bill of rights that actually impairs service quality. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the BoR is a marketing gimmick and it not a good thing for the customers.
I agree, because the "sister" flight to 359 was the flight from JFK to LBG. And they were stuck on the tarmac with us as well. But they did get out that night about 30 mins after our pilot put the passengers up to a vote. They got into California at 2am, but at least they got there.
Not sure why Jetblue cancelled our flight which was 100% full.
ciaobel
Jul 27, 08, 1:20 pm
Machiavelli predicted this long time ago already - good intention on democracy may very possibly turn into anarchy. This situation would beg a comparison with WN. WN draws a clear line that its employees are its constituents, while B6, by the BoR, arguably gave the "power" to customers. However, customers come and go and there is no accountability. They are like "mercenaries" in Machiavellian term - acting solely on the contract. Yet, the image of a pilot having to come out for a vote not only hurts the authority of the sole person onboard who presumably has the best judgment in such situations, but also sends a discouraging message to those are are actually stuck/held accountable with the carrier, aka, the employees.
Then the pilot came out and took a vote, saying that the Customer Bill of Rights forces him to go back to the gate after 4 hours, but since we were first in line for takeoff, he didn't want to do that. So the vote was taken and many of us just wanted to stay in line and get out of JFK, but enough angry people demanded to get off the plane.
JMG5575
Jul 27, 08, 1:43 pm
Machiavelli predicted this long time ago already - good intention on democracy may very possibly turn into anarchy. This situation would beg a comparison with WN. WN draws a clear line that its employees are its constituents, while B6, by the BoR, arguably gave the "power" to customers. However, customers come and go and there is no accountability. They are like "mercenaries" in Machiavellian term - acting solely on the contract. Yet, the image of a pilot having to come out for a vote not only hurts the authority of the sole person onboard who presumably has the best judgment in such situations, but also sends a discouraging message to those are are actually stuck/held accountable with the carrier, aka, the employees.
After arguing with jetblue again today, they issued me a $50 voucher. Still not enough to cover the $500 I paid Virgin America for a 1-way ticket. Would have been better if B6 put me on that flight since they could not accomodate me.
For those keeping score at home, JetBlue has now canceled 3 out of the last 4 BOS-DEN flights. Thurs, Fri, Sunday canceled, with only Saturday getting out. And for those not local to Boston, it was partly cloudy until 4pm, at which point it started to rain. Some t-storms rumbled through around 5p, but nothing that I would call spectacular. At 7pm, it's raining lightly. On the other end, Denver, reportedly, is HOT.
Considering that this was supposed to be a quick weekend trip for me (Thurs-Sun), I would now be stuck in Denver, and scrambling to get rebooked along with everyone else who was either going to JFK/BOS lately. I expect I would have gotten home around, oh, say Weds.
dietcoke
Jul 28, 08, 9:15 am
No idea. It was the automated phone-call, apparently because I still show up as having a reservation for tonight.
Yesterday, the counter agent's excuse was 'we can't get any crew to come in to fly the plane due to the weather.' I didn't pursue it, but it struck me then as a fairly odd wording. I understand that sometimes the crew is stranded in another city of course. 'Not being able to get them to come in because of the weather' sounds like the typical excuses I hear around the office the first snowstorm in Boston each year! Of course, I don't think that's what she meant, but to many pax, it would sure sound as though the pilot wanted to stay at home where it's dry rather than come fly to Denver.
whilst many crews were displaced there were many more who were available to fly. the sad part is that these available crews were unable to get thru to crew services and crew recovery. JetBlueFA, take your head out of your .... Our infrastructure just sucks and our middle management and a large portion of our upper management have no clue. Once again, I'm ashamed to be a JetBlue Pilot.
magiciansampras
Jul 28, 08, 9:25 am
:eek:
This is kind of shocking. I used to get chided for bashing on B6 and now even the pilots can't defend the organization. Something needs to change over at JetBlue I think. They should be negotiating interline agreements ASAP.
Brigri
Jul 28, 08, 10:20 am
whilst many crews were displaced there were many more who were available to fly. the sad part is that these available crews were unable to get thru to crew services and crew recovery. JetBlueFA, take your head out of your .... Our infrastructure just sucks and our middle management and a large portion of our upper management have no clue. Once again, I'm ashamed to be a JetBlue Pilot.
These are strong words indeed, I know for a fact that B6 management reads this board, so I would be careful what you post in a public forum. You should communicate this with your chief pilot directly or even JR.
jetBlueNYFL
Jul 28, 08, 10:38 am
whilst many crews were displaced there were many more who were available to fly. the sad part is that these available crews were unable to get thru to crew services and crew recovery. JetBlueFA, take your head out of your .... Our infrastructure just sucks and our middle management and a large portion of our upper management have no clue. Once again, I'm ashamed to be a JetBlue Pilot.
Are you really a JetBlue pilot? I am usually under the impression that the caliber of our pilots avoids reactions such as yours.
dietcoke
Jul 28, 08, 10:48 am
These are strong words indeed, I know for a fact that B6 management reads this board, so I would be careful what you post in a public forum. You should communicate this with your chief pilot directly or even JR.
Why??? nobody listens. many aspects of our operation have improved since St Valentines week, however our internally communications and the ability to talk to crew services and crew recovery have not. Once again, this weekend has shown many flight crews that there is absoutely no accountability. The Chief pilots and JR spin, spin and spin.
dietcoke
Jul 28, 08, 10:52 am
:eek:
This is kind of shocking. I used to get chided for bashing on B6 and now even the pilots can't defend the organization. Something needs to change over at JetBlue I think. They should be negotiating interline agreements ASAP.
I still love working for JetBlue but I refuse to defend every aspect of this operation. If they invest in software that can handle irrops this place would be a truely fantastic operation.
magiciansampras
Jul 28, 08, 10:53 am
I still love working for JetBlue but I refuse to defend every aspect of this operation. If they invest in software that can handle irrops this place would be a truely fantastic operation.
Good for you. ^
ciaobel
Jul 28, 08, 10:56 am
our pilots? are you a B6 employee or not?
that the caliber of our pilots avoids reactions such as yours.
Brigri
Jul 28, 08, 10:59 am
I still love working for JetBlue but I refuse to defend every aspect of this operation. If they invest in software that can handle irrops this place would be a truely fantastic operation.
I thought there was new software that was being implemented, I haven't been there for 6 months so maybe that changed.
dietcoke
Jul 28, 08, 11:04 am
Are you really a JetBlue pilot? I am usually under the impression that the caliber of our pilots avoids reactions such as yours.
You have to be kidding me!!!! the truth hurts doesn't it. If you took a time out from Forest Hills and spent a day at the airport during an irrop you may come away with a different opinion. The fact that I'm safe and accident free, after 20 years of pushing tin, is the only thing that concerns me personally. I'm eagerly waiting for you to refute my claims. Happy Jetting!!!!!
dietcoke
Jul 28, 08, 12:32 pm
Are you really a JetBlue pilot? I am usually under the impression that the caliber of our pilots avoids reactions such as yours.
Originally I read your post and just blew it off. Well its time to revisit. How dare you come on this board and question my caliber as not just a pilot, but a jetblue pilot. Each and everytime I put on that uniform I represent so much more than jetblue. I represent my family and I represent myself. I flew a 4 day trip over this past weather event and I was ashamed of my position as pilot with this company. You didn't experience the multiple modifications to my schedule. You didn't experience the reduced rest periods and the reams of disinformation coming from HQ. You didn't experience the frustration of holding endlessly on the telephone for crew services simply to be ignored. JetblueNYFL, walk a day in my shoes and then we'll talk, otherwise keep your misguided opinions to yourself and never query my professionalism again.
intrepid720
Jul 28, 08, 1:02 pm
whilst many crews were displaced there were many more who were available to fly. the sad part is that these available crews were unable to get thru to crew services and crew recovery. JetBlueFA, take your head out of your .... Our infrastructure just sucks and our middle management and a large portion of our upper management have no clue. Once again, I'm ashamed to be a JetBlue Pilot.
I really appreciate your candor and acknowledgement of the problem. That goes a long way in helping customers deal with sometimes suboptimal conditions. ^
Denying that anything could possibly be wrong just makes things worse - which is something I see on this particular board a lot. So thanks for this.
BearX220
Jul 28, 08, 1:51 pm
I still love working for JetBlue but I refuse to defend every aspect of this operation. Thank you dietcoke. I love the idea of JetBlue, even though I've had really mixed experiences as a paying customer. As I posted earlier I just can't trust the system to come through reliably, so my B6 trips are on the far end of the leisure / optional scale -- nothing where I actually have to be somewhere same day. You have the makings of a great airline but the window-dressing and blind, ears-covered cheerleading have to stop. I remember more than 20 years ago when PeoplExpress was unraveling that the worse things got, the more dismissive of any criticism the true believers were. I see elements of that mindset here too and it really worries me. JetBlue 2.0 has got to come out of this mess real soon, and guys like you should be in its front lines.
JetBlueFA
Jul 28, 08, 2:44 pm
To blindly follow any corporation with out being completely objective will only lead to destruction. While we have come along way since last year we still have a long way to go before we are able to handle this size of operation we have. Phone lines still get overloaded, no interlining for the customers to reduce stress an strain on the operation, over worked aircraft, and other major issues that should have been thought of when we where small.
I think the company still wants to think of itself as a "small" airline which we cannot do. We run a major operation with over 600 daily departures and carry millions of people eac year. When summer or winter storms hit, I would like to hope we are able to cope like a big airline but I don't think we are there yet. We have some major issues that still need to be addressed.
Lets pleast try and conduct a discussion on here with out resorting to calling out other people and question their motives or things of that nature. We are all adults who should be able to conduct ourselves as such! :)
UnitedSkies
Jul 28, 08, 4:30 pm
To blindly follow any corporation with out being completely objective will only lead to destruction. While we have come along way since last year we still have a long way to go before we are able to handle this size of operation we have. Phone lines still get overloaded, no interlining for the customers to reduce stress an strain on the operation, over worked aircraft, and other major issues that should have been thought of when we where small.
I think the company still wants to think of itself as a "small" airline which we cannot do. We run a major operation with over 600 daily departures and carry millions of people eac year. When summer or winter storms hit, I would like to hope we are able to cope like a big airline but I don't think we are there yet. We have some major issues that still need to be addressed.
Lets pleast try and conduct a discussion on here with out resorting to calling out other people and question their motives or things of that nature. We are all adults who should be able to conduct ourselves as such! :)
Thanks for this post - I have not been a regular on the B6 forum, but have found your posts to be insightful, well-balanced, calm and well-reasoned.
I do believe that B6 has rapidly outgrown its small carrier status, with outdated infrastructure both on the technical and manpower management side. Something needs to change, and fast. Moreover, the B6 vs. WN discussion is enlightening in that B6 is stuck in a terrible predicament of having substantial operations in BOS and JFK, where ATC is just absolutely awful even on a decent day, with no interline agreements to help stranded/affected customers. WN can spread out its risk, if you will, just by the sheer function of its size and its hub layout and route network.
If B6 is to attract higher yield business customers, it will need better recovery tools such as interline agreements to get its customers on their way, otherwise, no one in their right mind would want to consistently fly B6, because guess what, in the summer, there are thunderstorms and in the winter there are snowstorms and ice storms. You cannot keep hoping that every single flight on B6 will be in good weather, which apparently is the only time that B6 performs well.
hobo13
Jul 29, 08, 2:42 pm
Just got an email from B6 issuing me a $100 travel credit for the fiasco last weekend. That's a nice little token, especially considering this was an award ticket. ^
But it does seem a bit strange to issue compensation if it truly was weather-related. Most of the big-boys don't do that, to my knowledge, unless you have a lot of status with them. So way to go JetBlue!
dieuwer2
Aug 2, 08, 6:12 pm
And again we have "weather delays"
http://www.jetblue.com/JetblueAlerts/WeatherUpdate.aspx
Suppose we have a little bit of rain (thunderstorm) every other day, will B6 just cancel there whole NorthEast operation? Might as well go out of business right now.
Seat13c
Aug 2, 08, 6:25 pm
And again we have "weather delays"
http://www.jetblue.com/JetblueAlerts/WeatherUpdate.aspx
Suppose we have a little bit of rain (thunderstorm) every other day, will B6 just cancel there whole NorthEast operation? Might as well go out of business right now.
Uh... I assume you were not around the NYC Metro area this morning when we got slammed this morning. The skies were green, massive amounts of lightning, driving rain and all the storm sewers were so full, the streets had mild flooding. I am not suprised that there were major delays late this morning and that there might be scattered spots where the recovery is just finishing being ironed out. And looking at weather.com, there should be another line of T-storms coming through soon (Atleast in Bergen County). Just b/c you don't have horrific T-storms in BOS, it doesn't mean we don't have them here.
dietcoke
Aug 3, 08, 5:43 pm
And again we have "weather delays"
http://www.jetblue.com/JetblueAlerts/WeatherUpdate.aspx
Suppose we have a little bit of rain (thunderstorm) every other day, will B6 just cancel there whole NorthEast operation? Might as well go out of business right now.
Have you ever flown through a thunderstorm??? unfortunately I did it once when I flew single pilot night time cargo. Thankfully I survived and I'll tell you straight to your face I will never ever do that again, especially with passengers. I encourage you to do it once then get back to me. JetBlue did cancel quite a few flights to keep the operation flowing along but you have to understand that there are so many other varibles to consider sure as crew duty periods, ATC flow rates and the fact that all these varibles are occurring within the confines of the most saturated airspace in the world. I know cancellations are frustrating to passengers but sometimes they are a necessary evil. I hear it all the time that the weather is beautiful at their destination but the averge passenger has no clue as to the big aviation picture.
smmrfld
Aug 4, 08, 1:34 pm
Have you ever flown through a thunderstorm??? unfortunately I did it once when I flew single pilot night time cargo. Thankfully I survived and I'll tell you straight to your face I will never ever do that again, especially with passengers. I encourage you to do it once then get back to me. JetBlue did cancel quite a few flights to keep the operation flowing along but you have to understand that there are so many other varibles to consider sure as crew duty periods, ATC flow rates and the fact that all these varibles are occurring within the confines of the most saturated airspace in the world. I know cancellations are frustrating to passengers but sometimes they are a necessary evil. I hear it all the time that the weather is beautiful at their destination but the averge passenger has no clue as to the big aviation picture.
All airlines have cancellations and delays. Unfortunately, B6's response too often is "here's your money back - find another airline" or "we can get you out three days from now". This is why B6 has lost countless thousands of dollars of revenue from me and my associates since we gave up on your carrier post-2/14/07. Great in-flight product, completely unreliable service.
Seat13c
Aug 4, 08, 4:14 pm
All airlines have cancellations and delays. Unfortunately, B6's response too often is "here's your money back - find another airline" or "we can get you out three days from now". This is why B6 has lost countless thousands of dollars of revenue from me and my associates since we gave up on your carrier post-2/14/07. Great in-flight product, completely unreliable service.
Isn't an interline agreement a cross between giving someone their money back and telling them to fly another airline? It's just a matter of the airline giving to the other airline rather than you doing it on your own.
magiciansampras
Aug 4, 08, 4:19 pm
Isn't an interline agreement a cross between giving someone their money back and telling them to fly another airline? It's just a matter of the airline giving to the other airline rather than you doing it on your own.
Yes, except that it isn't the pax's responsibility to come up with the $$$ in an interline agreement. When B6 cancels a flight and tells you to go find another airline, what that means if they want you to go pay the walk-up fare (i.e. pay through the nose) somewhere else. This makes it a non-option for lots of the flying public.
Edited to add: Also, a lot of times airlines won't still be selling seats for a given flight but seats are still available. This has happened to me before. Seatguru and the other airline website both show all 0's yet United has been able to find an open seat somehow, for instance.
ciaobel
Aug 4, 08, 4:30 pm
In essence, it is the same.
But providing interline basically shows that the airline actually cares about the pax. So that would add a bit "humanity" into the service, no?
Isn't an interline agreement a cross between giving someone their money back and telling them to fly another airline? It's just a matter of the airline giving to the other airline rather than you doing it on your own.
nerd
Aug 4, 08, 4:43 pm
In essence, it is the same.Interlining is the same as giving the pax a refund? :confused:
sbm12
Aug 4, 08, 4:47 pm
Isn't an interline agreement a cross between giving someone their money back and telling them to fly another airline? It's just a matter of the airline giving to the other airline rather than you doing it on your own.
Not really. Technically interlining has to do with the ticketing carrier being able to issue a ticket involving the partner carrier. And in many cases it covers luggage arrangements, too.
What we really want is for JetBlue to be willing to BUY US the ticket on the other carrier when they have operational issues (which they can only do if they have the interline agreement). The problem is that such an action costs a lot of money if you have a lot of operational issues. There's an opportunity cost in not doing so - folks might not book with you - but I think that is a lower cost than the impact of putting together a broad agreement to push people on to other carriers when there are problems.
Also worth noting is that most carriers officially don't push you to another carrier when the cause is weather. Some will for their elites or those who know how to push it, but most don't.
Seat13c
Aug 4, 08, 5:34 pm
Both carry the premise that we can't get you from point A to point B like orginally planned. The approach, only, on how its corrected. JetBlue says either take a later flight in our own system or here is your money back and you can use it to fly, drive, or take a train home. However, the legacies confine you to either their flight at a much later time or a specify seat on airline X's certail flight.
Its all in their approach. Both give you options in different ways.
ciaobel
Aug 4, 08, 5:34 pm
I was agreeing with the part that Interline = give the pas and the revenue to another airline, either through inter-company contract rate, or teh market rate (in which case, the pax buy a last minute fare him/herself)
Interlining is the same as giving the pax a refund? :confused:
magiciansampras
Aug 4, 08, 5:37 pm
Both carry the premise that we can't get you from point A to point B like orginally planned. The approach, only, on how its corrected. JetBlue says either take a later flight in our own system or here is your money back and you can use it to fly, drive, or take a train home. However, the legacies confine you to either their flight at a much later time or a specify seat on airline X's certail flight.
Its all in their approach. Both give you options in different ways.
When you have an interline agreement you also get pax, remember.
ciaobel
Aug 4, 08, 5:38 pm
You know, that tone, JBLU versus "the legacies", is getting old. It was good when you started up and tried to be a maverick, but now, it is just the same in the pack. If anything, JBLU behaves more and more like a legacy, with its selling itself to a legacy and starts to nickel and diming on pretty much everything.
Both carry the premise that we can't get you from point A to point B like orginally planned. The approach, only, on how its corrected. JetBlue says either take a later flight in our own system or here is your money back and you can use it to fly, drive, or take a train home. However, the legacies confine you to either their flight at a much later time or a specify seat on airline X's certail flight.
Its all in their approach. Both give you options in different ways.
Seat13c
Aug 4, 08, 5:39 pm
When you have an interline agreement you also get pax, remember.
The only way I could see JetBlue not doing the agreements is that they would be giving up a lot more pax than they would be gaining.
magiciansampras
Aug 4, 08, 5:43 pm
The only way I could see JetBlue not doing the agreements is that they would be giving up a lot more pax than they would be gaining.
Probably.
But wasn't this airline supposed to be about the customer's experience?
ciaobel
Aug 4, 08, 5:48 pm
That is exactly right. Very possible the reason that JBLU does not interline since the numbers turns negative whenever a flight gets weather, severely delayed or cancelled.
And what does that say about the product?
The only way I could see JetBlue not doing the agreements is that they would be giving up a lot more pax than they would be gaining.
sbm12
Aug 4, 08, 8:31 pm
Both carry the premise that we can't get you from point A to point B like orginally planned. The approach, only, on how its corrected. JetBlue says either take a later flight in our own system or here is your money back and you can use it to fly, drive, or take a train home. However, the legacies confine you to either their flight at a much later time or a specify seat on airline X's certail flight.
Its all in their approach. Both give you options in different ways.
Ummm...well I suppose that both give you options. One gives you a much broader set of options than the other. Also, the larger carriers, in addition to partnering with other carriers to make it work, also have larger route networks to handle the problems, so they can offer alternate routings. The JetBlue system cannot handle a double connect, so if the LGB-IAD flight is canceled they can't route you LGB-JFK-IAD-ZZZ to get where you were going.
Offering a passenger their $100 (or $400) back when the current fare is multiples of that is not a viable option for the vast majority of the public. Given the option of waiting days to find your way or paying hundreds of dollars isn't really giving passengers options.
I'm sure that Scilla and Charybdis are smiling at the "options" that passengers are given.
hobo13
Aug 4, 08, 10:00 pm
Isn't an interline agreement a cross between giving someone their money back and telling them to fly another airline? It's just a matter of the airline giving to the other airline rather than you doing it on your own.
I think I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume you were playing devil's advocate.
jetBlueNYFL
Aug 4, 08, 10:38 pm
You know, that tone, JBLU versus "the legacies", is getting old. It was good when you started up and tried to be a maverick, but now, it is just the same in the pack. If anything, JBLU behaves more and more like a legacy, with its selling itself to a legacy and starts to nickel and diming on pretty much everything.
Nickel and diming on JetBlue? Please, enlighten us. As far as I can see, JetBlue still offers the best value in coach, with the option to upgrade certain parts of the experience - ie. EML, movie, pillow/blanket, etc. Not to mention the fees, while increased, are still extremely competitive to legacy airlines' fees. One of the only large airlines I can think of that beats JetBlue in this department is of course Southwest. But then again, it's two completely different models.
ciaobel
Aug 4, 08, 10:43 pm
You are right, I take it back. Not nickel and diming, rather, it is quarter and dollaring
Nickel and diming on JetBlue? Please, enlighten us. .
jetBlueNYFL
Aug 4, 08, 10:46 pm
You are right, I take it back. Not nickel and diming, rather, it is quarter and dollaring
Really? Again, I pointed out that JetBlue offers the "upsell" to upgrade part of the experience. But, the "core" experience is still there - free unlimited snacks/drinks, free radio and TV, 34" standard legroom...what does the competition offer in this respect? How about fees? First bag? Second bag? Change fee?...
ciaobel
Aug 4, 08, 10:50 pm
Is your "core experience" term inspired by "core inflation" that the current administration uses all the time?
An experience is holistic and integrated, period. Try telling the pax that the core experience is good and the auxiliary experience is different, see how they would react.
Really? Again, I pointed out that JetBlue offers the "upsell" to upgrade part of the experience. But, the "core" experience is still there - free unlimited snacks/drinks, free radio and TV, 34" standard legroom...what does the competition offer in this respect? How about fees? First bag? Second bag? Change fee?...
caphis
Aug 4, 08, 11:03 pm
The JetBlue system cannot handle a double connect, so if the LGB-IAD flight is canceled they can't route you LGB-JFK-IAD-ZZZ to get where you were going.
I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly, but the system can and does accept multiple connections. If your LGB-IAD flight is cancelled, you can be routed LGB-JFK-IAD, or even LGB-BOS-JFK-IAD. I'm fairly sure (but won't say with 100% certainty) that it'll even accept something like LGB-ORD-BOS-JFK-IAD (if you really, really wanted to.)
If you're referring to a downline destination beyond IAD on another carrier, then you're right, but that's always been the case.
hobo13
Aug 4, 08, 11:20 pm
Really? Again, I pointed out that JetBlue offers the "upsell" to upgrade part of the experience. But, the "core" experience is still there - free unlimited snacks/drinks, free radio and TV, 34" standard legroom...
And a chance that you might get where you're going within 3 days..... what more could a pax want? :rolleyes:
sbm12
Aug 5, 08, 7:21 am
34" standard legroom...On which of your E190s? The E190 fleet is growing significantly and operates a lot of the schedule. Please try to remember that when rattling off your standard line about how great life is in the B6 cabin.
I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly, but the system can and does accept multiple connections. If your LGB-IAD flight is cancelled, you can be routed LGB-JFK-IAD, or even LGB-BOS-JFK-IAD. I'm fairly sure (but won't say with 100% certainty) that it'll even accept something like LGB-ORD-BOS-JFK-IAD (if you really, really wanted to.)
If you're referring to a downline destination beyond IAD on another carrier, then you're right, but that's always been the case.
I was told by someone that the double connect of LGB-BOS-JFK-IAD wasn't possible in the rebooking system. If that isn't accurate I apologize and retract my statement. I'm 99% sure that you cannot book it that way online though, right? If I wanted to get from SMF to MCO later this winter I'd need to double connect since I'd have to fly SMF-LGB-IAD/JFK/BOS/AUS-MCO. My understanding is that the website doesn't allow such bookings.
bmg42000
Aug 5, 08, 9:09 am
I read on the airliners.net forum that Airtran may start interlining soon. I have no idea how accurate this statement is. But I think that may be congress should put some pressure on the airlines to handle irregular operations better. BTW it may be the other airliners who do not want to interline with B6 but I don't know. I wonder why when AA had the baggage scanner problems the other day they did not ship baggage to the other terminals to be scanned (if capacity was available) instead of shipping it to EWR or LGA.
jetBlueNYFL
Aug 5, 08, 9:28 am
On which of your E190s? The E190 fleet is growing significantly and operates a lot of the schedule. Please try to remember that when rattling off your standard line about how great life is in the B6 cabin.
The E190 may not have 34", but it does have a generous 32"/33" pitch that happens to be greater than the average of other airlines. Factor this in with the much shorter average stage length and a wider seat (18") with no middle seat, and this is a very comfortable product. There's also the 4 exit row seats (not much, but it's there).
sbm12
Aug 5, 08, 1:52 pm
The E190 may not have 34", but it does have a generous 32"/33" pitch that happens to be greater than the average of other airlines. Factor this in with the much shorter average stage length and a wider seat (18") with no middle seat, and this is a very comfortable product. There's also the 4 exit row seats (not much, but it's there).
Sure, but it isn't 34" and 32" is actually comparable to many other carriers. VS offers 32" in all their Y configs. CO offers it on their 767s. AS offers it on all their 737s. AA offers it on all their 777s and some seats on other a/c types, including 33" on half their MD8x seats, which makes up the bulk of their fleet. YX offers it on all their 717s (and they are grounding their MD80s which also had 32" pitch). WN has 32-33" pitch fleet-wide. US does on their 757s, 767s and A321. UA doesn't but that is because they are selling their E+ seats.
Making an arguement based on facts actually requires presenting factual data.
caphis
Aug 5, 08, 2:08 pm
I was told by someone that the double connect of LGB-BOS-JFK-IAD wasn't possible in the rebooking system. If that isn't accurate I apologize and retract my statement. I'm 99% sure that you cannot book it that way online though, right? If I wanted to get from SMF to MCO later this winter I'd need to double connect since I'd have to fly SMF-LGB-IAD/JFK/BOS/AUS-MCO. My understanding is that the website doesn't allow such bookings.
The reservations system will indeed handle a double connect, but you're right in that they're typically not built in already. You can't make such a booking on the website, and typically won't be sold such a routing at a connecting price, but in an IROP situation, multiple connections can be created for rebooking.
I think that made sense. Did it? :)
sbm12
Aug 5, 08, 2:31 pm
The reservations system will indeed handle a double connect, but you're right in that they're typically not built in already. You can't make such a booking on the website, and typically won't be sold such a routing at a connecting price, but in an IROP situation, multiple connections can be created for rebooking.