American Express Membership Rewards - Denied for Centurion - "You don't meet the credit profile of Amex"

Ok, so I called back to Centurion Applications today now that it's July. I qualify on the spending in 12 months ($300k+) and the 1 year mark now. The lady on the phone was really nice and walked me through the application.

Then she says "I just need to run your credit report to see if you're approved. This will take 1 minute." About 20 seconds later she says "I'm sorry sir, but at this time it's telling me that you don't meet the credit profile of American Express. I'm going to submit your application to our credit department for a review to see if they will overturn it. I can't guarantee you that it will get overturned, but as soon as I hear back from them I will give you a call on your cell phone. It will be in the next 24 hours. Is that OK?" Of course I said yes.

Here's what my online application status shows (click to see image): http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/88/centurioncp8.jpg

Now, I'm not surprised by the denial of any credit/charge card for me right now. I have a very high debt-to-credit ratio because I maxed out many of my cards to fund my business. My FICO credit scores are in the low 600's, but I have no late payments, no collections, no charge-offs, no baddies, nothing. All on time and everything, just high debt. I think Amex is just being really strict because of the credit crunch right now.

But... I do spend $40k-$50k with Amex a month, I have multiple cards with them, and am a great customer. I have my personal cards and two of my businesses with them. I really hope they can do a manual review of my application and approve me so they can keep me a happy and loyal customer. After all, if I am charging $40k-$50k a month with Platinum, what harm does it do them to move me to Centurion?

Any thoughts on this? Has this ever happened with anyone before when trying to get Centurion? Maybe I am the first on FlyerTalk where this has happened.

Ethan

After all that work and talking about getting the Cent card and they turned you down? Sucks man. I'm sure a manual review will get you in, if not just keep asking for it.

If I were AMEX I'd be willing to let anyone who's silly enough to pay a $5,000 initiation fee get the card. I've seen the card benefits in action, and while they can be valuable for sure, the initiation fee on top of the already questionably worthwhile annual fees is crazy. I'll hold off on saying anymore as its been discussed ad naseum elsewhere.

AMEX is very tight with their credit lines these days. 600 is not the greatest score these days, and with your high ratio of debt, I'd be nervous loaning you money.

With that credit history, they probably feel that your willingness to spend $5000 for the privilege of carrying a Centurian card is an indicator of future credit unworthiness.

I'm thinking the quicker you get over it and move on, the better off you will be.

I thought Amex had pretty tight requirements on credit scores. To be honest, I would be surprised if they would give a regular charge card to someone with a 600 credit score.

I used to work at a bank, and if someone came in with a 600 credit score and wanted a car loan, we either denied them or charged an outrageous interest rate.

I'd suggest paying down your revolving balances. That will improve your score. Reapply once your score is in the 700s.

How does this credit score work? Is it a proportion of assests to debts?

By the way, I have gotten nearly all of my Amex cards with my scores being in the mid-600's. My Amex Clear, Hilton, Business Green, Business Gold, and Plum, all after I had high debt. My only card that I got while in the 700's was my Platinum, and that was before starting my business about a year ago. Granted, the credit industry has fallen on hard times in the last 6 months.

I'll just wait for the results, and if I get denied then I'll just move on and work on my buiness to continue to pay down debt, no big deal.

I would really like the card, and I would use the benefits in a huge way (all of you people complaining about the fees need to get over it). But if I'm denied there is nothing I can do and I'll just have to reapply later in life. :)

Ethan

Right now the shape that banks are in, they are not readily lending money. If your score is in the 600's, that's not considered prime. Back when you obtained your platinum and had a score in the 700's that would have been appropriate. Right now, basically if your score is below 680 your considered non-prime and the lending is very very tight in that market now.

proportion of assests to debts?

No, in the USA credit scores are models created by credit bureaux to predict probability of default looking only at credit history. One factor is the ratio of current balances to total available credit. They do not have access to information about income or assets. The scores are typically used for routine decisions on credit cards, auto loans and other installment loans.

The American Express manual credit review would probably look at the details of the credit report, rather than just the score, plus the applicant's income.

You can find more using the search term: FICO . I believe a similar system is in use in the UK, but I do not know if it is as pervasive as in the USA.

The risk I see here for ethanwa is that the review could affect the existing cards.

Ethan,

That sucks. Ask for the manual review / FR; or just wait a bit (say 6-12 months) for your credit to improve. My own credit score improved by over 100 points in the past 12 months due to vigilant credit management.

Order your reports from annualcreditreport.com if you haven't done so already.

I don't think the Black Card has a higher "credit limit" than any other AMEX charge card product. Thus, I don't why AMEX wouldn't do it.

Like some posters said previously. You might be better-off without the card. However, some of us need the card for narcissistic reasons....

Ethanwa:

Are you upgrading your Platinum to Centurion or getting a brand new Centurion card? It might be just easier to upgrade from Platinum to Centurion.

If you have any business credit cards, move the balances over to them. If not, then apply for some biz CC's. Biz CC's usually don't show up on credit reports. Your score is low due to high utilization.

Check out www.creditboards.com/forums. My score went up about 40 pts when I borrowed 9K from my HELOC and paid off the card. The reason I had a balance on that card was 0% on purchases for a year.

I'm thinking the quicker you get over it and move on, the better off you will be.

My thought exactly. Be happy you didn't waste the $7,500. You can get most of the useful Centurion bennies with your Plat card.

If you wanted it for CO, DL and US Gold elite status, those have a lot less value than in years past... more elite pax, and in many cases F fares aren't that much more than coach. As a CO Gold, I purchase F a lot of the time (depending on route and inventory) to insure I get an F seat.

My thought exactly. Be happy you didn't waste the $7,500. You can get most of the useful Centurion bennies with your Plat card.

If you wanted it for CO, DL and US Gold elite status, those have a lot less value than in years past... more elite pax, and in many cases F fares aren't that much more than coach. As a CO Gold, I purchase F a lot of the time (depending on route and inventory) to insure I get an F seat.

It's US Plat elite status.

My thought exactly. Be happy you didn't waste the $7,500. You can get most of the useful Centurion bennies with your Plat card.

Guys, stop wasting your time trying to convince me to give up on getting Centurion. I want the card, so let's just move on from that conversation. There are a million threads talking about whether Centurion is worth it, and this is NOT one of them.

As far as the question goes about "upgrading" from Platinum. Yes, I do have a Platinum, but Amex doesn't card which card you have as long as you've had it for a year with $250k+ spending.

E

Guys, stop wasting your time trying to convince me to give up on getting Centurion. I want the card, so let's just move on from that conversation.

It is so annoying that there are so many threads like this. I don't understand why people are always trying to talk people out of getting a Centurion. If you want it get it. No extra 50 off-topic posts are going to change someone's mind about its value. The card has a different use for everyone.

Ethan, enjoy the card.

It is so annoying that there are so many threads like this. I don't understand why people are always trying to talk people out of getting a Centurion. If you want it get it. No extra 50 off-topic posts are going to change someone's mind about its value. The card has a different use for everyone.

I think there is very simple logic; if less people take Centurion then the people having Centurion feel more unique. So it pays to convince people to go away from Centurion. :D

As far as the question goes about "upgrading" from Platinum. Yes, I do have a Platinum, but Amex doesn't card which card you have as long as you've had it for a year with $250k+ spending.

I think TAHKUCT was asking whether you are getting Centurion as a new card or are you replacing your Platinum card with the Centurion? Additional cards present additional risk for the credit card company and it might cause some extra hassle.

I think TAHKUCT was asking whether you are getting Centurion as a new card or are you replacing your Platinum card with the Centurion? Additional cards present additional risk for the credit card company and it might cause some extra hassle.

Replacing, but I didn't tell them that.

Ethan,

As someone who has had the Centurion card for about 2 months now and is cancelling it and going back to Platinum, I know how the ¨rush¨ of getting it can be and how you might think its going to be the best thing to happen to you in a long time. Granted, my getting Centurion was a lot easier than the hell AMEX is putting you through for such an over-rated product. I KNOW most of this BS is simply because AMEX wants to create an allure of exclusivity over this product, when in reality, anyone could carry this card, it DOES have a limit, and I know of some people with higher exposure lines on GOLD cards than on Centurion cards, so it really makes no difference what product you hold in terms of credit lines, etc. I know this because my exposure on the Centurion was kept the same as on my Plat.
I simply called, politely inquired about it, and in less than 2 weeks, an invite was sent.

BIG SURPRISE and (IMHO) DISAPPOINTMENT:
In 2 months nothing has stood out to me in that ¨wow¨ factor type of way that I would expect from a card which people are always making such a huge fuss over.
The customer service has been good and attentive, but by no means pro-active and astonishing. The same as Platinum.
The Lifestyles service marketed with the Centurion card leads you to believe that the Concierge is a sophisticated, savvy group of experienced professionals who can make the impossible, possible. Well, on 3 occasions when AMEX Centurion Concierge told me ¨no table is available¨, I have been able to get a table by calling MYSELF and politely speaking to the manager, this leads me to believe that they are doing a robotic, non pro-active job.
I also called Lifestyles to send my mother a flower arrangement for Mother's Day. I expected an elaborate, Ritz-Carlton-style arrangement. My mother got something very standard from 1-800 Flowers, but as a consolation, I was given a 10 percent AMEX discount. They just don't get it.
As far as the ¨bling¨factor, I guess whipping it out at Starbucks or Kinkos might get you some attention, if you want it.

.
I do spend $40k-$50k with Amex a month, I have multiple cards with them, and am a great customer.
.

The solution is simple. Have AmEx cancel all of your existing cards and replace them with the Centurion.

This will negate any extra perceived risk that AmEx may be concerned about.

Ethan,

As someone who has had the Centurion card for about 2 months now and is cancelling it and going back to Platinum...

You make good points, but this isn't the appropriate thread for that conversation.

Why are you cancelling it after only 2 months? You just paid $7500. Keep the card a year and then cancel it. No harm done just having it in your wallet for a year if needed with no cost to you.

Ethan

Guys, stop wasting your time trying to convince me to give up on getting Centurion. I want the card, so let's just move on from that conversation.

And I want a G-V, but sometimes life sucks. :(:(

The fact that you have a very high debt-to-credit ratio and maxed out your cards to fund your business suggests that Amex made a sound business decision not to fund any more of your business.

And I want a G-V, but sometimes life sucks. :(:(



Me too! Think of the MRs on that purchase!

Edit: Deleted my comment.... not worth my time to battle with some of you on an online forum. Childish.

I know this may be hard to hear but...

You admitted that you are using credit cards to fund your business. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Lots of successful people have done it.

But at some point, that well dries up. And to expect banks/credit card companies to continue to issue credit in the scenario you described is naive, especially in the current climate.

Are the CCs you are using to fund your business sitting at a very low APR? Why not take the $7,500 you would spend for Cent and lower your CC utilization to raise your FICOs (and avoid paying interest, if applicable)?

Wirelessly posted (Treo 700p Sprint: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/Palm-D052; Blazer/4.5) 16;320x320)

Are the CCs you are using to fund your business sitting at a very low APR? Why not take the $7,500 you would spend for Cent and lower your CC utilization to raise your FICOs (and avoid paying interest, if applicable)?

Great suggestion ! :)

We live in a society of debt. Some people don't mind living in debt, some people like to be debt-free. This thread was not created so people could give ethanwa financial advice, it was created to see if anyone else had similar experiences in applying for a Centurion card.

Personally, AMEX refuse to even give me a charge card - I don't have a "credit score" in the same sense you guys do in the US (I'm in NZ) - but I am 20 years old. I have several extremely high limit Visa and Mastercards, with a pretty good income for my age. Amex just don't like lending to "young people." Sigh.

If I knew I would ever even be considered for a Centurion, I'd jump at the chance. Keep fighting Ethan! ;)

amex cares about spending power.

debt, especially now, is something theyll look at more in terms of a potential killer of spending power.

My FICO credit scores are in the low 600's

I honestly do not see how that is even possible without significant deliquencies in your past. It would almost certainly take more than a high debt ratio to drive a score that low.

As many posters have stated in this thread -- the fact that you fund your business off your credit cards is a very serious problem in the eyes of a card issuer like AMEX wanting to issue you the Centurion. Its about the exposure of money debt vs investment return. They see you as a negative return as you are bleeding your credit cards (increasing debt) without increasing your return on the money you invested into your business.

My advice to the guy wanting a Centurion? Get a line of credit, and move all your balances over it and close the cards down to a simple set of 3 cards instead of carrying 6 or so cards in the same wallet. Your financial picture will look a lot better if you do this. Get some merchant accounts set up and manage your costs that way instead of borrowing money to keep your business afloat, you need investors to look at you as a cash fountain instead of a cash well thats going dry every month.

Sanosuke!

I guess AMEX does after all want high net worth individuals as Centurion customers. High expenditure but no credit risk due to high asset value.

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I think the OP has mentioned before that he does online advertising. Just because he has high balances doesn't mean he is "living in debt" or even making poor business decisions.

Example: at the beginning of the billing cycle the OP makes a large Google Ads purchase. By the end of the month he makes enough revenue to pay that charge and earn a profit. Until he pays the balance off, it will appear that he is in credit trouble when in reality that is simply his business cycle. As soon as he does pay it off, he will immediately make another Google purchase and so on...

Nothing wrong with the OP's business or use of credit, so let's lay off on that.

As many posters have stated in this thread -- the fact that you fund your business off your credit cards is a very serious problem in the eyes of a card issuer like AMEX wanting to issue you the Centurion. Its about the exposure of money debt vs investment return. They see you as a negative return as you are bleeding your credit cards (increasing debt) without increasing your return on the money you invested into your business.

My advice to the guy wanting a Centurion? Get a line of credit, and move all your balances over it and close the cards down to a simple set of 3 cards instead of carrying 6 or so cards in the same wallet. Your financial picture will look a lot better if you do this. Get some merchant accounts set up and manage your costs that way instead of borrowing money to keep your business afloat, you need investors to look at you as a cash fountain instead of a cash well thats going dry every month.

Sanosuke!


Not a good idea. That would drive his debt ratio even lower. Never cancel a card, particularly a free card that is "well aged" (e.g., that you have owned for a long time).

So tell me, why do they consistently tell you _not_ to carry 6 cards with high balances on them even if they're aged?

Sanosuke!

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I think the OP has mentioned before that he does online advertising. Just because he has high balances doesn't mean he is "living in debt" or even making poor business decisions.

Example: at the beginning of the billing cycle the OP makes a large Google Ads purchase. By the end of the month he makes enough revenue to pay that charge and earn a profit. Until he pays the balance off, it will appear that he is in credit trouble when in reality that is simply his business cycle. As soon as he does pay it off, he will immediately make another Google purchase and so on...

Nothing wrong with the OP's business or use of credit, so let's lay off on that.

Thank you for hitting the nail on the head.

Amex just don't like lending to "young people." Sigh.


That's not necessarily true. I recieved my first Amex, the Optima, in 1997 at age 18. The next was the Gold charge card, in 1999 (age 21). And the Centurion in 2002 (age 24).

Sorry, I shouldn't really generalize like that - but Amex in New Zealand has a pretty strong policy of not lending to people under about 25, particularly if they're self employed - even with proof of income.

Edit: BTW - Centurion at 24? Not bad! :p

I think TAHKUCT was asking whether you are getting Centurion as a new card or are you replacing your Platinum card with the Centurion? Additional cards present additional risk for the credit card company and it might cause some extra hassle.

That is exactly correct. If you tell them you are upgrading, then they do not have to open a new line of credit for you.

Amex just don't like lending to "young people."

That is not true here in US. I have received my first Amex charge card when I was 20 years old.

My FICO credit scores are in the low 600's

I honestly do not see how that is even possible without significant deliquencies in your past. It would almost certainly take more than a high debt ratio to drive a score that low.

FWIW, Amex does not rely on FICO to decision applications. Amex uses its own internal scores.

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I think the OP has mentioned before that he does online advertising. Just because he has high balances doesn't mean he is "living in debt" or even making poor business decisions.

Example: at the beginning of the billing cycle the OP makes a large Google Ads purchase. By the end of the month he makes enough revenue to pay that charge and earn a profit. Until he pays the balance off, it will appear that he is in credit trouble when in reality that is simply his business cycle. As soon as he does pay it off, he will immediately make another Google purchase and so on...

Nothing wrong with the OP's business or use of credit, so let's lay off on that.

In other words, just another version of living "paycheck to paycheck". Hardly Centurion's target market.

@ethanwa:

I am a bit confused of all the stuff of credit and financial industry discussed here . :confused:

Just would like to give you some hints about how to negotiate (in any of cases when the opposing/third party) is not sure if they want to make an offer, maybe this works even with a large corporation like American Express:

1.) Naturally there are in basics two completely diffferent strategies in arguing and negotiating the request of a coulour change of your credit card.

The one -and in that case not suitable- approach is to say: I will take all my business elsewhere. This argument can be made at a local shop/gas station/restaurant where the owner has a direct contact and lives with his customers nearby or in the same town. There you may use this "mirror method": Show him how bad his/her service is and give the next and last chance and then shop elsewhere.

In case of larger corporations this threat really doesn't have any impact. The envolved personnel is confronted with facts how bad/silly/annoying the company is not to offer this special kind of service to someone.

So besides the "hard facts" as managing the credit scorre I always would take the -how I would call- the "soft approach" to that. Tell them how great the Amex corporation is, that you are customer for .. years and they haven't made any mistakes in processing your financial transactions. @:-)

And you want to be more loyal to them and get a more expensive coulour of that card.

As anyone likes to hear that he/she is working for a great corporation you surely will get a call from this person. He would like to thank you for your loyal being as a customer and valued person. Maybe you can involve this caller in a bit longer discussion that you face in your job very often people who tell you that cour own company or business is bad/silly/annoying people/too expensive and so on. So you get a common professional base to argue and then ask this calling people if he can do anything for you, if your application/or any other request has not passed yet. :D

In any case you will have an interesting phone call, learn much about the business. And in cases where the "traffic light" for the processing of the application doesn't indicate a strictly "NO" but a more "may be" then they will personally care about your application.

So if you really want to have this card, just try to find out who is responsible for that procedure and try to send him/her a letter personally. Sometimes this works.

In other words, just another version of living "paycheck to paycheck". Hardly Centurion's target market.

I don't think that follows at all. Credit or charge cards with interest-free periods are 'free money' for a month, plus might earn you some points/miles if you're that way inclined. If you're dealing with a supplier that won't give you any incentive to pay by cash, why not benefit?

If I was running a business where I could pay my supplier by Amex without any kind of penalty, I would! It wouldn't say anything about my ability to pay by cash, there just wouldn't be any incentive to do so...

(a) Pay by cash: $50,000 cash outflow at day 1. $51,000 revenue accumulated by day 30. $1,000 profit.

(b) Pay by card: Pay by Amex at day 1, $150 interest earned on $50,000, $500 worth of miles earned (assuming a penny per mile), plus $51,000 of revenue by day 30. $1,650 profit.

Who chooses (a)? Of course, the 'without any kind of penalty' part is a big 'if'. If my supplier gives me a 2% discount for cash payment ...

Thank you for hitting the nail on the head.

Just be glad you don't have an IDC Amex, they won't let you charge any of your PPC expenses to it, I had to get a bank guarantee first, which took something like 6 months to set up and was overall a huge pain.

In other words, just another version of living "paycheck to paycheck". Hardly Centurion's target market.

Except you are wrong. How exactly is this living paycheck to paycheck ..

Except you are wrong. How exactly is this living paycheck to paycheck ..

Like this...

Originally Posted by troyb...
Example: at the beginning of the billing cycle the OP makes a large Google Ads purchase. By the end of the month he makes enough revenue to pay that charge and earn a profit...

My post addressed that exact point, but you chose to ignore it.

So tell me, why do they consistently tell you _not_ to carry 6 cards with high balances on them even if they're aged?

Sanosuke!


Who is "they"?

If you are arguing that you shouldn't have high balances relative to credit limits, then you are correct. If you are arguing that it is somehow a bad thing to have high credit limit cards with no debt then you are precisely wrong. The credit scoring mechanism uses a ratio of debt to credit limit, the lower the better. Closing large credit limit, unused cards can lower FICO, sometimes dramatically. Closing old unused accounts of this type is even worse.

My post addressed that exact point, but you chose to ignore it.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I said "just another version of paycheck to paycheck"...

1. Paycheck = "revenue received during the month"
2. Uses this "Paycheck" to pay his bills.
3. Paycheck = "revenue received during the month"
4. Uses this "Paycheck" to pay his bills.
5. Paycheck = "revenue received during the month"
6. Uses this "Paycheck" to pay his bills.
7. Paycheck = "revenue received during the month"
8. Uses this "Paycheck" to pay his bills.
and on and on...

Like this...

Originally Posted by troyb...
Example: at the beginning of the billing cycle the OP makes a large Google Ads purchase. By the end of the month he makes enough revenue to pay that charge and earn a profit...

Except you are assuming that the OP starts out with $0 in the bank. In reality the OP probably has amount $x sitting in his bank, he spends $100k, makes $150k in the same period and only then has to pay the bill. I don't know about you, but if someone lends me their money for free and I can use that money to turn a profit, I'd be stupid to touch my bank account.

Essentially with Google your options are:

A) Prepay Google $100,000. Less money to work with, no interest accrues, no bonus, no nothing.
B) Get a credit line with Google. Harder to do, fixed for 3-6 months (sucks if your business grows very fast), no bonuses. Still better than A).
C) Charge it to your Amex card. +$1000 (or more) in points, +$250 in interest.

Unless you can't charge all of your expenses, or you can get a better deal by paying cash, there is no reason why anyone would not choose option c).

Edit: Also, Google doesn't charge upfront, but as you rake up the charges, so troyb was incorrect.

ethanwa: I am not going to try to talk you out of this card. I am genuinely interested in know what about the card makes you want to have it so badly. Is it the perceived status of being one of the select few, or is there something about this card's features that makes it better than alternative cards?

One can have the billing dates for the credit cards staggered (can ask an issuer to do so), then charge expenses to the card that will be the last to issue another statement based upon time of month. This means that a card would only be used a few days a month to extract maximum float (e.g. the card that issues statements on the 5th will only be used until another card issues a statement on the 15th).

Pay each card just before it's due and one would:

* Get MRs,
* Get most of a month's worth of float (as each card would only be used for the few days after a statement is issued),
* Get 0% debt utilization on the credit report after a few months (monthly balance is based upon end of statement balance).

The overall effect is extracting benefits from the credit issuer but improving the overall credit score through decreasing the formal "debt utilization".

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I think the OP has mentioned before that he does online advertising. Just because he has high balances doesn't mean he is "living in debt" or even making poor business decisions.

Example: at the beginning of the billing cycle the OP makes a large Google Ads purchase. By the end of the month he makes enough revenue to pay that charge and earn a profit. Until he pays the balance off, it will appear that he is in credit trouble when in reality that is simply his business cycle. As soon as he does pay it off, he will immediately make another Google purchase and so on...

Nothing wrong with the OP's business or use of credit, so let's lay off on that.

In that case, if the OP can make his cash flow work to this, he may want to consider paying his CC balances a couple days before his statements cut, that way they report at $0 or very low balances thus freeing up his utilization. That could make it look better to Amex.

I will give you a call on your cell phone. It will be in the next 24 hours.

Tick, tock. Outcome?

So tell me, why do they consistently tell you _not_ to carry 6 cards with high balances on them even if they're aged?

Sanosuke!

IIRC Canadians don't have FICO scores so it may apply differently, but here in the US one of the major components of FICO scoring is card utilization. The key point you mention is "high balances" since it is ideal for scoring purposes to have a card at <10% utilization.

.... If you are arguing that it is somehow a bad thing to have high credit limit cards with no debt then you are precisely wrong. The credit scoring mechanism uses a ratio of debt to credit limit, the lower the better. Closing large credit limit, unused cards can lower FICO, sometimes dramatically. Closing old unused accounts of this type is even worse.

Actually, there can be some negative factors if an applicant has an extremely low revolving debt to credit limit ratio b/c the rating agencies view that as relatively low credit activity and therefore little information.

Almost any activity a person does besides paying bills on time can have a negative impact on the stupid FICO score.

Now, I'm not surprised by the denial of any credit/charge card for me right now. I have a very high debt-to-credit ratio because I maxed out many of my cards to fund my business. My FICO credit scores are in the low 600's, but I have no late payments, no collections, no charge-offs, no baddies, nothing. All on time and everything, just high debt. I think Amex is just being really strict because of the credit crunch right now.We also use credit cards extensively in our business, and our bank, bonding company - anyone who reviews our financials (after a somewhat detailed explanation) - thinks it's a great idea. Most of our bills are due on the 10th of every month, and the billing cycle on my two biggest cards cuts off a couple of days prior. This gives us roughly 45 days float. If you pay off your balances every month, I think it's a great idea. The miles and hotel points are an added bonus.

But I think you have a problem with FICO score: either there's something you're not telling us, or you have a hit on your credit that shouldn't be there. The last time I checked my credit, I had $231K on two cards that reported a $0 credit limit (Citi MC and Amex Plat). Obviously my credit utilization was WAY over 100%, but my FICO score was still 740. And my wife and I churn cards religiously (15 apps so far this year). I would think there's something else going on with your credit score.

IIRC Canadians don't have FICO scores so it may apply differently, but here in the US one of the major components of FICO scoring is card utilization. The key point you mention is "high balances" since it is ideal for scoring purposes to have a card at <10% utilization.

Actually, Experian will generate a score for a Canadian to a US credit issuer if it is requested...

Tick, tock. Outcome?

Still waiting. It's been 48 hours now. My online app still says In Progress. At this point I'm not sure if I let things play out or if I should push them?

I just got the call and I was officially denied. I guess the credit department spoke with the banks, etc. and they feel it's too big of a risk with the debt listed on my current credit report. They said I could reapply at any time, and that I should continue to build my credit history with Amex to make the decision easier in the future. Essentially though it comes down to my credit report.

So that's that. I'll just work towards getting that debt wiped out and move on. Thanks for the advice everyone!

In other words, just another version of living "paycheck to paycheck".

No, it is called "working capital" and is typically debt funded. If the cycle is short, though, you can actually do it profiably off of even high interest credit cards, because you pay them down before the interest starts ticking.

While amusing, I am not sure most of the reponses are actually dealing with the real issue:
Why would Amex deny OP the Centurion, but not the other Amex cards he is already using?


This is puzzling to me, as the card itself does not represent a credit risk to the issuer. It is the credit limit that represents the risk, and this could be mitigated by shuffling between's OP's other cards.

Setting aside the fact that Amex won't shuffle credit limit between personal and business cards (and not knowing the exact make-up of OP's wallet), I would expect one of two outcomes:

Amex is willing to issue the card by reducing the limit on exisintg cards.
The FR that OP triggered by applying, will eventually lead Amex to reduce the limits on OP's other cards (without giving him the black card).


As to whether the card is worth it, I don't know and I don't care. But we do benefit from understanding Amex' decision making patterns, and something seems off in the story as it has been told. The only somewhat reasonable explanation I have heard so far is that Amex have changed their criteria to include a certain net worth level and not just spending. Would be great to have that confirmed, though.

While amusing, I am not sure most of the reponses are actually dealing with the real issue:
Why would Amex deny OP the Centurion, but not the other Amex cards he is already using?


This is puzzling to me, as the card itself does not represent a credit risk to the issuer. It is the credit limit that represents the risk, and this could be mitigated by shuffling between's OP's other cards.

Setting aside the fact that Amex won't shuffle credit limit between personal and business cards (and not knowing the exact make-up of OP's wallet), I would expect one of two outcomes:

Amex is willing to issue the card by reducing the limit on exisintg cards.
The FR that OP triggered by applying, will eventually lead Amex to reduce the limits on OP's other cards (without giving him the black card).


As to whether the card is worth it, I don't know and I don't care. But we do benefit from understanding Amex' decision making patterns, and something seems off in the story as it has been told. The only somewhat reasonable explanation I have heard so far is that Amex have changed their criteria to include a certain net worth level and not just spending. Would be great to have that confirmed, though.

FYI: Amex Charge Cards do not have a pre-set spending limit. Each transaction is approved individually based on ones credit history, relationship with Amex and other factors that Amex uses internally to determine credit worthiveness.

I´m convinced AMEX loves to play the ¨allure¨ game with people sometimes. If it is indeed the case that the OP is spending such high volumes, has numerous other AMEX products, has a great and tenured relationship with AMEX, I see NO VALID REASON why they should not allow him to UPGRADE to the next-up card product.

If he closes his Platinum account, AMEX could simply start him off with a Centurion with whatever the same credit line (exposure) he has had on the Platinum and has he makes payments, progressively build on that.

AMEX plays this game worldwide, as I was denied twice in Spain before I went from Gold to Platinum until I finally had it out with a CSR Manager and said that I thought it was nonsense.

To give more insight to these questions, here are some interesting points:

- Amex did put limits on two of my business charge cards after the call (a Green and a Plum) of $1500. Very week going from $20k credit to $1.5k on my Plum. It no longer says "No Pre-Set Limit" under the cards in my account. The financial review did something here. Serves me right I guess.

- My Platinum still has the "No Pre-Set Limit". I am still able to charge $50k+ a month as far as I know. My bill this month is $44k and climbing and I'm still not getting denials (thank god).

- Inquiry was on my Experian credit report (I'm sure this is already known). Unfortunately for me, this is the report with my lowest score from all three agencies for some odd reason. When I get my credit denial letter in the mail, it should list the reasons why I was denied, such as "Too high of debt-tocredit ratio". I'll post a copy of that letter when I get it if there is anything interesting in it.

- I asked Abby at Centurion, the person I spoke to about the application, if I could just cancel my Platinum and have the Centurion instead. I explained that I spend $50k/month on my Platinum and that I just want an upgrade of the card, not a new credit line. She said "No, sorry. Centurion is an entire new line and card and not an upgrade from any existing card." What this tells me is that you must be approved outright with your current credit score, and that no previous card, or your threatening to close it, will have any impact on your approval/denial or Centurion.

- It also makes me realize that they are in control here, and that meeting the "requirements" are not enough. They don't care if you're Mike Tyson or Brad Pitt if your credit score is 500. It's all about money to them and they don't want any added risk. Amex is a business that deals with money, and it's sole indicator of a good business decision is risk assesment vs. profit margins. Keep that in mind when you question why Amex does what it does.

Ultimately (and I thank everyone again for thier advice), I just need to pay down my debt. Then this problem goes away and I can get the card. :)

Ethan

Wow!

Thanks for the update and best of luck in getting the Centurion Card.

(...)
Ultimately (and I thank everyone again for thier advice), I just need to pay down my debt. Then this problem goes away and I can get the card. :)


The real centurion benefit: REDUCED DEBTS! :rolleyes:

Very interesting thread. Thanks for sharing, Ethan!

I still think it's strange that you didn't get the Centurion though... I don't see that AmEx runs any bigger risk in you having a Centurion card with "No Pre-Set Limit" than having a Platinum card with "No Pre-Set Limit".

Amex just don't like lending to "young people." Sigh.

Not necessarily true, I got my Green card when I was 20.

That's not necessarily true. I recieved my first Amex, the Optima, in 1997 at age 18. The next was the Gold charge card, in 1999 (age 21). And the Centurion in 2002 (age 24).

I received my Gold at 17 and the Cent card at 23..

However to the OP. When I applied for the Cent I was initially declined than when I called and was transfered to the credit dept they quickly pulled up my account than said it was a mistake and approved me. So i'd just hang tight.

On another note, I don't think i'll renew my Cent this year as I honestly haven't seen the need and the Wow effect has wore off. I got mine a few years ago so I didn't have to pay the signup fees but I would suggest you stick with your plat and save yourself the money.

I used the Concierge several times and they suck. I tried getting a hotel room during a booked weekend and they couldn't even pull through. The Eite statuses aren't helpful to me as I now mostly buy F fares anyways.

Although the card is devalued and the wow factor does wear off (fast), I still say its easy to reap the benefits of the cost. Free night at MO, upgrades at the Ritz and others, the random gifts, etc. You can easily justify the expense if you maximize the benefits.

Not necessarily true, I got my Green card when I was 20.
The OP now knows to lower their debt, so best to you.

Every college bookstore shoves an AMEX application with nearly every sale in their fall semester, so it is an item which young people can get, I didn not apply for mine until I was in grad school.

Regarding the discussion about the age limits; whether someone can get an Amex card as a young person varies between countries. For example in Finland, Amex specifically used to tell in the past (not sure about today as I cannot be considered a young person any longer) that you are free to apply again when you have reached the age 25. In Finland Amex is not Visa or Diners who try to get the students to sign up.

That's not necessarily true. I recieved my first Amex, the Optima, in 1997 at age 18. The next was the Gold charge card, in 1999 (age 21). And the Centurion in 2002 (age 24).


I also received my first amex card at 18 (the classic green card). I got my platinum delta sky miles card at 21 and got the classic platinum card at 24. I have also received an invitation to apply for the Centurion Card and I am just turning 30. :D

I also received my first amex card at 18 (the classic green card). I got my platinum delta sky miles card at 21 and got the classic platinum card at 24. I have also received an invitation to apply for the Centurion Card and I am just turning 30. :D

For the best martini have you tried the Dukes Hotel in London. Hard to say if they are the best, but they are quite noteworthy.

The originator of the predictive analytics algorithms used to determine credit scores, often generically called FICO scores (much as often often hears facial tissues referred to as Kleenex™,) are FICO® (Fair Isaac Company.) You can get a fair idea of what determines one's credit score (even if it is a score from another rater, it works pretty much the same way) at www.myfico.com.

The "About FICO® scores" section has a pie chart and states:

"# FICO® scores are your credit rating
# They range from 300-850, higher is better
# Most lenders base approval on them
# Higher scores mean lower interest rates
# FICO® scores are calculated based on your rating in five general categories: Components of the FICO® score

* Payment history - 35%
* Amounts owed - 30%
* Length of credit history - 15%
* New credit - 10%
* Types of credit used - 10%

# We’re the inventor of the FICO® score
# We’re the only site offering all 3 of your FICO® scores
# The median FICO® score in the U.S. is 723"

(Ironically, the same company that claimed their system was "supersecret" now sells you the scores etc.) Though there are other scoring methods, they are generally derivative or similar enough one gets the idea of how this all works - and how one can improve (or worsen) one's credit score.

How does this credit score work? Is it a proportion of assests to debts?

By the way, I'm 29, so I'm not sure if age is a factor here if people who are 23 have gotten Centurion.

I'm just waiting for my denial letter in the mail so I know exactly why they denied me. Again, I think it comes down to debt-to-credit ratio is too high.

I don't think age is a factor, since I have had Platinum since just before I was 19 and got Centurion recently and now I am 21. Also, if you look, celebs like Lindsay Lohan have Centurion, but I am sure the rules are a bit different for them to the rest of us.

Personally, AMEX refuse to even give me a charge card - I don't have a "credit score" in the same sense you guys do in the US (I'm in NZ) - but I am 20 years old. I have several extremely high limit Visa and Mastercards, with a pretty good income for my age. Amex just don't like lending to "young people." Sigh.OT for the OP's issue, but Amex NZ issued me a Gold Amex on my 18th birthday, and the Platinum charge card 18 months later.

I suggest you try again - as long as you have sufficient income, they don't seem to give a hoot how old you are.

Edited to add: No invitation to the Centurion yet, but my spending has dropped dramatically since I've moved to countries that issue it - not that I'd accept it at AUD$4300/yr anyway. Curiously after moving to SIN and applying for a corporate CC here, Amex also felt the need to issue me a SIN Platinum credit card - based presumably off my AU/NZ Amex credit history. I didn't apply for it - it was just sent to me.

FYI: Amex Charge Cards do not have a pre-set spending limit. Each transaction is approved individually based on ones credit history, relationship with Amex and other factors that Amex uses internally to determine credit worthiveness.


While good marketing this is not enitrely correct. Charge cards do have a limit, but it is not
a) "Pre-Set" - whatever that means, or
b) disclosed to the cardholder.

In reality Amex has a limit they apply internally, which appears to vary by type of purchase. It is also changed (typically increased) depending on time with Amex and status of the account (paying on time, etc). So it is not entirely dissimilar from the way credit cards are treated, as I found out when I tried putting large charges through on a new charge card I opened recently. (Previous large charges went thorugh without a hitch on a different Amex charge card. The rep was kind enough to tell me how to "beat the system" when I called in.)

AMEX is very tight with their credit lines these days. 600 is not the greatest score these days, and with your high ratio of debt, I'd be nervous loaning you money.

But they're already loaning the OP money. In fact, the OP is just looking for the opportunity pay them some extra in addition to what's already getting borrowed.

Charge cards do have a limit, but it is not
a) "Pre-Set" - whatever that means, or
b) disclosed to the cardholder.

Right before I got a Cent (just turned 27, so I doubt OP's age has anything to do with his denial) and had a Platinum, one of my small charges was denied. I called Amex and was told that spending was suspended because of two big charges (low six figures) a few days earlier. When I said that payment for those charges was already posted online, I was given an apology for the inconvenience, card was unblocked and I was informed that in order to get a higher limit I can either submit all of my banking info and/or simply do not exceed the above mentioned amount if I don't want anymore declined charges, in essence disclosing my monthly spending limit, which has been increased since then.

The key issue here is...why aren't you updating your signature on an hourly basis to keep us most up to date with progress? I liked watching the 'days till I get Centurion' last month...it is a bit like those Olympic countdown boards I've seen about.

For the best martini have you tried the Dukes Hotel in London. Hard to say if they are the best, but they are quite noteworthy.

:D

From what I've heard regarding AmEx spending limits, what seems to be correct based on my personal experience, the spending limit is normally double the highest monthly bill you have paid. I.e. if you have paid a monthly bill of 30K, your limit is 60K until you have a higher monthly bill and so on. I know they are flexible to a certain extent, so this is likely a rule of thumb they use. Might be different from country to country though. Can anyone confirm this "theory"?

Might be different from country to country though. Can anyone confirm this "theory"?I was told by Amex NZ they used 1.5x the 3 monthly average; although I'm not really sure if that held weight given I would spend $50-60K in a month, drop down to $5-6K for 3-4 months, then spend $50-60K again.

The key issue here is...why aren't you updating your signature on an hourly basis to keep us most up to date with progress? I liked watching the 'days till I get Centurion' last month...it is a bit like those Olympic countdown boards I've seen about.



:D

The American Express manual credit review would probably look at the details of the credit report, rather than just the score, plus the applicant's income.

The risk I see here for ethanwa is that the review could affect the existing cards.\


AMEX has their own internal scoring system said to be the best in the industry.

They wpuld review that (along with a currentcredit report (to see debt to income ratio etc) and base their judgement on all of that.

You need to get your score higher and forget about the $75001 years fee justto carry the card.

A Platinum is FINE.

Ok, so I called back to Centurion Applications today now that it's July. I qualify on the spending in 12 months ($300k+) and the 1 year mark now. The lady on the phone was really nice and walked me through the application.

Then she says "I just need to run your credit report to see if you're approved. This will take 1 minute." About 20 seconds later she says "I'm sorry sir, but at this time it's telling me that you don't meet the credit profile of American Express. I'm going to submit your application to our credit department for a review to see if they will overturn it. I can't guarantee you that it will get overturned, but as soon as I hear back from them I will give you a call on your cell phone. It will be in the next 24 hours. Is that OK?" Of course I said yes.

Here's what my online application status shows (click to see image): http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/88/centurioncp8.jpg

Now, I'm not surprised by the denial of any credit/charge card for me right now. I have a very high debt-to-credit ratio because I maxed out many of my cards to fund my business. My FICO credit scores are in the low 600's, but I have no late payments, no collections, no charge-offs, no baddies, nothing. All on time and everything, just high debt. I think Amex is just being really strict because of the credit crunch right now.

But... I do spend $40k-$50k with Amex a month, I have multiple cards with them, and am a great customer. I have my personal cards and two of my businesses with them. I really hope they can do a manual review of my application and approve me so they can keep me a happy and loyal customer. After all, if I am charging $40k-$50k a month with Platinum, what harm does it do them to move me to Centurion?

Any thoughts on this? Has this ever happened with anyone before when trying to get Centurion? Maybe I am the first on FlyerTalk where this has happened.

Ethan

I doubt you'll get approved considering your short history with amex, low credit score and high debt. I don't understand how you can have such a low credit score and have no negatives. Centurion approvals go by more than how much you spend with them and your fico score really doesn't come into play as much as a long history of spending that amount with them. Perhaps your debt to income ratio isn't on par with your spending. Either way, goodluck.

Ethanwa,

I'm trying to get in touch with you. Please check your private messages and message me your contact info. I can probably get you a Centurion card.

Ethanwa,

I'm trying to get in touch with you. Please check your private messages and message me your contact info. I can probably get you a Centurion card.

** deleted **

Ethanwa,

I'm trying to get in touch with you. Please check your private messages and message me your contact info. I can probably get you a Centurion card.

Get me one while you're at it. Oh wait, you are paying the fees, right?

My thought exactly. Be happy you didn't waste the $7,500. You can get most of the useful Centurion bennies with your Plat card.

If you wanted it for CO, DL and US Gold elite status, those have a lot less value than in years past... more elite pax, and in many cases F fares aren't that much more than coach. As a CO Gold, I purchase F a lot of the time (depending on route and inventory) to insure I get an F seat.

Yeah...take your $7500. saved and buy yourself a bunch of paid F tickets....which are generally cheap domestically...you'll probabaly wind up ahead in the end:cool:

Sorry, I shouldn't really generalize like that - but Amex in New Zealand has a pretty strong policy of not lending to people under about 25, particularly if they're self employed - even with proof of income.


I got an Amex credit card (blue card) without any trouble in NZ a few years back when I was <25. Once you build up a reasonable history with the credit card, they should have no problems issuing you with a charge card.

I suspect that some of those who are getting the high-end Amex products at very young ages might be able to do so based on their parents income/credit scores :)