MilesBuzz! - White Envelopes - Question about another tactic

I'd love to hear opinions from lawyers on this:

What if an EBAY seller says that the auction is for the seller's time to go to the airline ticket office and issue free tickets in the buyer's name. Would this get around the no selling miles (since what is being paid for is the seller's time to get tickets issued)

Just wandering - seems more "fair" if you must sell miles...not that I advocate/against this practice.

But how do you prove that the seller was an authorised representative of the buyer? Why were THEY allowed to go to the ticket office to get the tix for someone else? Me thinks, that some sort of a (enorcable) contract is needed for this.

I'm not a lawyer - but be serious. Would you reasonably expect anyone to pay $1000 just for someone else to go to the airport (if you weren't going to receive some other benefit)? If not, then don't expect the airlines to buy that argument.

Well, yes, $1000 for say a half day's "work" to drive to some ticket office DOES seem reasonable - I mean this would be something in line with what a mid-range lawyer would charge in NY or Tokyo (something like $300 an hour or so).

In any case, I think its far more reasonable than a white envelope.

how about selling a plain brown envelope...no telling how high the bid would go.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by J-H:
Well, yes, $1000 for say a half day's "work" to drive to some ticket office DOES seem reasonable - I mean this would be something in line with what a mid-range lawyer would charge in NY or Tokyo (something like $300 an hour or so).

In any case, I think its far more reasonable than a white envelope.</font>

I would expect the law firm to send a clerk.

How bout selling a blow up doll and including a free upgrade? If the airline asks about it, just tell them you bought a blow up doll from a buddy with miles and it came with an upgrade. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by Window_Seat (edited 04-15-2003).]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by J-H:
Well, yes, $1000 for say a half day's "work" to drive to some ticket office DOES seem reasonable - I mean this would be something in line with what a mid-range lawyer would charge in NY or Tokyo (something like $300 an hour or so).

In any case, I think its far more reasonable than a white envelope.</font>

Yes you might pay $1000 for a lawyer to work - but usually with the expectation that you get something out of it. Like their work. I wouldn't pay 10 cents (and neither would anyone else) for someone they don't know, to go somewhere just for the sake of them going there. If you do find it reasonable, let me know - I'll go to the airport every day if you'll give me $1000 each time http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Besides, this really isn't a question about what would hold up in court - it is a question of whether the airline will unilaterally cancel your ticket and freeze your account.

Assuming the matter went to court, a judget would look to the substance of the transaction to determine what was being sold.

The law does not recognize legal fiction of selling a "white envelope" as it is clear that the consideration paid (e.g. $1000) is not for the envelope but what is contained therein. Similarly, an auction for your "time" spent at the airport would be considered a legal fiction since the buyer is paying for the free ticket not for your time.

People sell white envelopes all the time on ebay but it won't make any difference if they get caught selling - at least from a legal perspective.

Great idea! I think I'll start selling "white envelopes" containing crack! I wouldn't be doing anything illegal, right, after all I'm just selling a white envelope.

How about auctioning off an honest to god, real life hooker and having her deliver a free SWU with her service? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Form v. Substance.

The substance of the transaction is the sale of the cert (which is forbidden by the airlines).

Doesn't matter what form you try to cloak around it - it's still a sale of a cert (not allowed by the terms of the airline issuing the cert).

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by VolleyballFerd:
I wouldn't pay 10 cents (and neither would anyone else) for someone they don't know, to go somewhere just for the sake of them going there. If you do find it reasonable, let me know - I'll go to the airport every day if you'll give me $1000 each time http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif</font>

Hmmmmmm... how interesting! Just today I went out to pick up a fellow FT'ers tickets. I have never met the guy and yet I did it for him for FREE!

Yes, it took me about 25 minutes to find a parking spot, not to mention the cost of toll on the bridge and my lost time from work BUT I still did it. I never expected to gain anything from it. I merely wanted to help out someone who is part of our FT community. Am I weird or just too helpful?

Spider,

Why choose? Can you be BOTH weird and helpful? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

William

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by wharvey:
Spider,

Why choose? Can you be BOTH weird and helpful? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

William</font>

Or helpfully weird.

What's an "airline ticket office"? I often gift tickets to friends and family. They pay the taxes and fee's and will generally buy me dinner or something. I hope that would not be considered "selling" the ticket, if so then I'm very guilty. UA come and get me

Gifting awards is fine. Actually when in Chile I found out that LanChile does not allow gifting of awards, even to a spouse, each person must accumulate enough miles in his own account to redeem for himself. So all you idiots out there who have to attempt to circumvent the rules to sell the award tickets, what you will probably end up doing is ruining it for the rest of us who play the game according to the rules that are agreed to when you join the program - airlines may stop allowing gifting of awards if they feel that it costs them. In any case, this is not a legal issue with the government but an issue against the program rules. Remember that the airline is the complete ruler of the program and they have carefully reserved their right to close anyone's account if they so desire.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Spider:

Am I weird or just too helpful?</font>

Having consumed quite a few beers with Spider I agree entirely with this. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif



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~ Glen ~

Come visit HERE (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum13/HTML/000502.html) the most ** FRIENDLY FORUM ** on FlyerTalk. No flame wars, no personal abuse, no substance abuse. Not much of anything really!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by ozstamps:
Having consumed quite a few beers with Spider I agree entirely with this. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
</font>

Thanks Glen!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif Which part do you exactly agree with?

Why - BOTH parts of course. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

It seems to me that charging the money as a "service fee" could be considered legal - the exact same way that Ticket Agencies can sell scalped tickets for up to several times the face value - the markup is charged as a "service fee" and is, therefore, legal. Although they are established businesses, so there may be a difference between that type of entity and an individual.

Would not work too well here. Our 10% GST tax is literally 'Goods and Services Tax'. A 10% tax would need be added if you claimed it was a "service". IIRC Canada also styles it as a "GST" too? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

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~ Glen ~

Come visit HERE (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum13/HTML/000502.html) the most ** FRIENDLY FORUM ** on FlyerTalk. No flame wars, no personal abuse, no substance abuse. Not much of anything really!

I say you do a nice pencil on paper drawing and sell that as your item with the "bonus" free ticket. Who is to say that the drawing isn't worth $1000 now or in the future?

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by swflaboy:
I say you do a nice pencil on paper drawing and sell that as your item with the "bonus" free ticket. Who is to say that the drawing isn't worth $1000 now or in the future?

</font>

That is called circumventing the rule. Technically you can still be at fault. And even if you could not, this is not a battle of what is legal or not, the airline can close your account if it wishes, just to protect themselves. If they close your account, you are SOL.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by quinella66:
If they close your account, you are SOL.</font>

Or you could sue them, and then they'd be SOL.

QL

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by QuietLion:
Or you could sue them, and then they'd be SOL.

QL</font>

Sue them for what? Closing your account because you sold an award which is against the rules of which you agreed to by joining the program.

HA!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Window_Seat:
How bout selling a blow up doll and including a free upgrade? If the airline asks about it, just tell them you bought a blow up doll from a buddy with miles and it came with an upgrade. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by Window_Seat (edited 04-15-2003).]</font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by quinella66:
Sue them for what? Closing your account because you sold an award which is against the rules of which you agreed to by joining the program.</font>

Yes, that's right.

Violating the terms of a contract does not give the other party the right to do anything they want.

QL

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by QuietLion:
Yes, that's right.

Violating the terms of a contract does not give the other party the right to do anything they want.

QL</font>

What if the terms of the contract are that if you sell a ticket they have the right to close your account?

How about we say that if it looks, smells, and quacks like it....it probably is......................

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by VolleyballFerd:
What if the terms of the contract are that if you sell a ticket they have the right to close your account?</font>

This has been discussed many times on FlyerTalk. A customer's contract with an airline is legally a "contract of adhesion" -- a contract set out unilaterally by one party with little or no chance for the other party to negotiate. These contracts are legal and generally enforceable with some exceptions. One exception is for terms deemed "unconscionable" by a court. Restricting the sale of awards is probably not "unconscionable". However, imposing arbitrary penalties that far outweigh real damages without due process is, in my opinion, unconscionable. I would like to see some lawsuits.

QL

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by VolleyballFerd:
What if the terms of the contract are that if you sell a ticket they have the right to close your account?</font>

Exactly. I have no problem with fighting when there are some grounds for fighting, but starting lawsuits to circumvent pre-stated rules is ridiculous. If you do not like the rules of not being allowed to sell awards, then do not participate, no one is forcing anyone to join the program.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by quinella66:
Exactly. I have no problem with fighting when there are some grounds for fighting, but starting lawsuits to circumvent pre-stated rules is ridiculous. If you do not like the rules of not being allowed to sell awards, then do not participate, no one is forcing anyone to join the program.</font>

Well, passively accepting other people's rules is one option, and frankly it's the one I personally take in this case. But I'd still like to see someone (else) challenge this.

QL