MilesBuzz! - Award travel bumps common?

In January I booked 4 roundtrip flights from EWR to SLC for the family. We just received notice that outbound we have been bumped from an 8 am flight to a 7 pm flight, and for the return from a noon'ish flight to a midnight flight. Is this kind of manhandling of OnePass members common? Is there any recourse (silly question)? I've written to Continental but have had no response.

Very similar thing happened to my mother on AA. I would just call and not hang up until I was put back on my original flight.

I got AA to listen when I started subtly inserting IDB into every sentence. ;)

These don't sound like bumps (need to know more), but rather like schedule changes that resulted in changes to your itinerary. Since you are reporting rather extreme changes, you should be able to call CO to get them to find better alternatives. Before you call, take a look at flight schedules to have suggestions ready for the agent.

I would get on the phone with someone and tell them (don't ask) in a nice way that you need flights closer to the time you booked because you have engagements that need to meet (ex. a wedding the night of arrival and go back to work at 8 pm the night of return home). so unless they want to pay for your rented wedding attire and the limo you paid for, and wages for missing time off work, those flights need to be closer to the times you originally booked.

I'm sure someone else will come up with better ideas, but that's where I'd start.

so unless they want to pay for your rented wedding attire and the limo you paid for, and wages for missing time off work, those flights need to be closer to the times you originally booked.


Do these threats usually work for people? Or do they just seem them as that, a threat? Do we really think they'll pay for all that if we don't get there on time?

In January I booked 4 roundtrip flights from EWR to SLC for the family. We just received notice that outbound we have been bumped from an 8 am flight to a 7 pm flight, and for the return from a noon'ish flight to a midnight flight. Is this kind of manhandling of OnePass members common? Is there any recourse (silly question)? I've written to Continental but have had no response.

IF the original flights still operate
AND
IF the connections still work

I would accept nothing less than traveling on the original flights booked.

Airlines don't just offloads mileage redeemers from flights for any reason. It usually happens when flight schedules change and the rebooking is done for all passengers, not just those on mileage tickets.

Airlines sometimes try to save money by only rebooking the passengers on flights that still have the original booking classes (mileage or paid) available. However, in my experience, if the passenger insists, they always will override this and rebook the passenger(s) on flights as similar to the original ones as possible.

IF there has not been any schedule change and passengers are simply being changed to other flights at the airlines whim, I would complain to the DOT.

---------------------------------------

FYI - Bumps usually refer to day of flight. Around 50% of flights are overbooked; only a small fraction of these bump people because usually 5%-20% of the passengers don't show up. In those rarer cases that too many people show up, the airline will ask for bump volunteers. These people receive compensation to take later flights.

Occasionally not enough people will volunteer for the bump in exchange for compensation. So the airline will have to involuntarily bump someone - IDB (Involuntary Denied Boarding). The DOT requires airlines to provide specified minimum levels of compensation in these circumstances.

I am not positive if IDB rules would apply here, but if they do AA owes you cash if you insist. The problem might be that the DOT rules a % of fare paid, and you paid with miles, not $....

[QUOTE=wanaflyforless;9544259...I am not positive if IDB rules would apply here, but if they do AA owes you cash if you insist. The problem might be that the DOT rules a % of fare paid, and you paid with miles, not $....[/QUOTE]

An award ticket is valued by the airlines as a full-fare ticket. That way they can write off the maximum amount from revenue for taxes. So, you are not on a free ticket. It is a ticket that has the highest cost value.

I agree with the above comments that you should call CO and ask to be reaccomdated. My experience is that they'll work with you to find suitable flights. Since your itinerary involves travel from EWR to SLC (a Delta hub), I'd not only check on CO's flight schedule but also Delta's. If Delta has award seats available for your dates of travel, CO will have the option of reaccomodating you on a Delta flight instead.

I recently called CO to be reaccomodated after a schedule change on an award itinerary and found them to be very helpful. They were able to put me on the specific flights that I requested.

An award ticket is valued by the airlines as a full-fare ticket. That way they can write off the maximum amount from revenue for taxes. So, you are not on a free ticket. It is a ticket that has the highest cost value.

Thank you.

Can you give any more backup to this? I really want it to be true. I've been involved in a debate over on the Southwest board in which Southwest's people argue that a RR ticket is worth zero, so if you take a bump while on a freebie (RR) you're owed nothing but the sweetener that's given to revenue passengers, and the next flight out.

(As DBC, Southwest offers to refund the *value of revenue tickets*, plus a sweetener - $100, $200 - plus to get you out on the next available flight for free. While revenue passengers get their fare back, the freebie flyer's Rapid Reward disappears. Sometimes, the freebie flyer gets $50 for the value of the freebie, regardless of the highest fare paid for that flight. I argue that the latter should get the RR re-credited for later use. The Southwest people vigorously dispute this, and say the $50, when given, is overly generous of the GA. I digress.)

BUT if the airline is valuing that freebie on the books at the highest value.....

Thank you again.

My wife and I were in business class NRT-SFO on JAL booked with AA miles last year and on the day of departure got "switched" over to an AA flight leaving around the same time of day. The JAL flight was still going out, no changes at all. We didn't even know until checking in.
AA in Narita got us back onto the JAL flight but it took 4 HOURS to sort it at the airport and we were never told why AA pulled us off the JAL flight and stuck us on theirs.
There was no way we were going to fly in those lousy AA business class seats when JAL has the slanted beds, great service and much better food!
It worked out but was a major headache.
Interestingly, when we boarded the business class upstairs was about 2/3 full, so this was not a case of the flight being oversold.

An award ticket is valued by the airlines as a full-fare ticket. That way they can write off the maximum amount from revenue for taxes. So, you are not on a free ticket. It is a ticket that has the highest cost value.

If airlines wrote redeemed awards off as full fare tickets, they would have to put the miles liability on the balance sheets in a similar way.

Airlines do not account for miles redemptions as high value tickets. Rather they argue they only need to count the incremental cost of carrying a passenger as the value of that ticket, so minimizing their miles liability.

Miles are valued on airlines sheets at roughly .4 cents each. +/- a little depending on the airline.

That makes a 25K award ticket worth $100. Less than most deep discount tickets but not free either.

Most airilnes probably count the 25K domestic redemption as costing them significanlty less than $100 because the about .4 cents/mile valuation is assuming a percentage of awards will be redeemed on partners for premium tickets, where the airline probably has to pay the partner a little more than .4 cents per mile.

Take a look at the airlines reported year end balance sheets to see how they value a mile.
An award ticket is valued by the airlines as a full-fare ticket.
Sure, I would love for this to be true.
But, Source???

An award ticket is valued by the airlines as a full-fare ticket. Sure, I would love for this to be true.
But, Source???Perhaps one of those commonly mentioned, but anatomically improbable yoga positions (http://tinyurl.com/2pbm88) ??

/just sayin'
//
///

Happended to a UA reward RT ticket I got for my son a couple of years ago. The flights were not cancelled. UA just wanted to move reward px to less desirable time. If I have been reading the posted, I would insist the original itin. Read and learn.

Op, please tell us the result.

This recently happened to me when an award flight I booked had a schedule change. I called and the OnePass rep was very friendly and had no problem accommodating me on a flight of my choosing. Since I was using OnePass miles for a Delta flight, they did have to get a Delta supervisor to approve the change, but it all worked out.

Give them a call and see what they can do for you. Good luck!

I love it whe they make any kind of change. when they do that I look o the schedle for the higest probability bumps with multiple connections and ask to be accomodated on tose flights. It is the best way to get a planned bump.

I love it whe they make any kind of change. when they do that I look o the schedle for the higest probability bumps with multiple connections and ask to be accomodated on tose flights. It is the best way to get a planned bump.

In my experience, with a revenue ticket, this is a great strategy. I wouldn't call it a planned bump but rather a good way to increase bump chances. IMO, planned bumps are impossible these days. I have been on nearly a hundred Y0F0 flights over the last few years that didn't request volunteers.

But with an award ticket this doesn't work so well, provided there are more direct logical options with lower loads (at the same time of your original booking).

Miles are valued on airlines sheets at roughly .4 cents each. +/- a little depending on the airline.

That makes a 25K award ticket worth $100. Less than most deep discount tickets but not free either.

Most airilnes probably count the 25K domestic redemption as costing them significanlty less than $100 because the about .4 cents/mile ...

25K @ 4c each = $1000 in the math i was taught, that turns assumption around and it is just full fare tix.


back on the subj.

I had lousy experience with UA bumping me from the same booked C seat twice.

the problem is with their off-shore agents who kept forgetting to cancel previous seat when I changed dates/flights. As a result connecting flight operating partner (Austrian) had double booking. They said messages were set to UA to no avail and as a result they cancelled both seats' reservations on both occations.

UA never notified me about it (i found online by checking with UA site), 1st time same award seat was still available and I got it back, 2nd time that Austrian seat was not available and instead of SFO-JFK-VIE, I was offered SFO-IAD-VIE.

after long investigation and much arguing not being at fault, UA acknowledged the fault but were not willing to route me via JFK at their extra expense; I asked UA to upgrade me to F on SFO-IAD leg as compensation but no, they wouldn't; they offered 10K miles instead, I said they could keep them.

25K @ 4c each = $1000 in the math i was taught, that turns assumption around and it is just full fare tix...
You overlooked a decimal point. wannaflyforless did not say they value award miles at 4 cents each, but rather at 0.4 cents each. 25K @ .4 cpm does = $100, not $1000.

lexa, I think you flat got screwed, so I hope you'll take this comment as empathetic.

If I thought that I could get any more out of the situation than the 10,000 miles, I would have told them to keep them, and pursued it further. But if not, I would have taken the miles and tried to think about something else. I'd love to sign off by saying, "But that's just me." But it's not. Sometimes. I'm just saying that sometimes I get pissed, and it amounts to nothing. This could have amounted to 10,000 mi.

If airlines wrote redeemed awards off as full fare tickets, they would have to put the miles liability on the balance sheets in a similar way.

Airlines do not account for miles redemptions as high value tickets. Rather they argue they only need to count the incremental cost of carrying a passenger as the value of that ticket, so minimizing their miles liability.

Miles are valued on airlines sheets at roughly .4 cents each. +/- a little depending on the airline.

That makes a 25K award ticket worth $100. Less than most deep discount tickets but not free either.

Most airilnes probably count the 25K domestic redemption as costing them significanlty less than $100 because the about .4 cents/mile valuation is assuming a percentage of awards will be redeemed on partners for premium tickets, where the airline probably has to pay the partner a little more than .4 cents per mile.

Take a look at the airlines reported year end balance sheets to see how they value a mile.

Sure, I would love for this to be true.
But, Source???

The liability is accounted for at a constant cpm amount. Each business is allowed to determine what that rate is, provided they have the documentation to back it up and apply the standard consistently. This is done since the redemption of the awards is unknown at the time the liability goes on the books.

When the award ticket is booked the airline then accounts for the ticket at full fare. At that time the original liability is adjusted to reflect this. And, yes, it actually does work out to their favor because of all the miles that will never/can never be redeemed (especially DL!) or miles that end up being forfeited by those carriers that have the 'lack of activity' clauses.

I can't tell you the exact FASB (Financial and Accounting Standards Board) Position Statement but it adheres to GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Standards). If you really want to find the specific case history then you are welcome to research it on their website of with a call to an accounting professor at a college near you. When I first started working directly in accounting in the late 80's there were only a handful of FASB statements. They now fill volumes thanks to the likes of the ENRON's, reverse mortgages, and brokerage houses selling insurance vehicles that permeate our economy since economic 'deregulation' in many industries.

In January I booked 4 roundtrip flights from EWR to SLC for the family. We just received notice that outbound we have been bumped from an 8 am flight to a 7 pm flight, and for the return from a noon'ish flight to a midnight flight. Is this kind of manhandling of OnePass members common? Is there any recourse (silly question)? I've written to Continental but have had no response.
I don't think the airline can even do this, if the original flights still existed and connections did not become illegal due to slight time adjustments.

Often airlines call passengers at 2 in the morning to discuss things like this, perhaps hoping that the passenger will "accept" the change.

If you did not accept any such changes and you just show up at the airport punctually, they just have to follow the usual bump rules.

Also I believe that the airline has to give you the choice of any voluntary compensation that they announced, or the required involuntary compensation.

Spartacus - According to you, DL could wipe out 100% of their liability this year if 10% of their members redeem their miles.

If Delta had a 10 Billion mile liability (not close to the real #) valued at 0.4 cents each, and then 10% of these people redeem these miles, Delta can now value these tickets at full fare, or 4 cents/mile.

Delta had a 10,000,000,000 miles x $.004 = $40,000,000 Liability.

1,000,000,000 miles were redeemed at $.04 each = $40,000,000 to remove from our sheets.

:D:D Delta now has $0 miles liability! :D :D

:mad::mad: But what about the 9,000,000,000 miles customers still have in Delta accounts? :mad::mad:

The majority of these customers will try to redeem one day.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is true that when calculating liability, one part of the equation is what percentage of these miles will go unused (expiration or act holder never earns enough to redeem). However this figure is in the 20%-30% range of all miles earned.

The difference between what the airlines value miles at on the books and the value of full fare tickets is roughly 1000%.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More evidence airlines do not consider an award ticket as full fare value on the books:

Chase/Amex/Citi/BofA buy miles from UA/CO/DL/AA/AS for ~.7 cents each.

All of these airlines consider their program highly profitable. They account for the mileage program separately on their books, every year showing a significant profit contribution to the company.

If airline are getting .7 cents for the mile, but valueing redemptions at 4 cents/mile (full fare tickets), where is the profit coming from?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You still have not provided a source for your statement that airlines write off redemptions at full fare. This is an easy thing to state but I say it is false.

Care to show proof I am wrong?
(I actually would really like to know!)

Spartacus - According to you, DL could wipe out 100% of their liability this year if 10% of their members redeem their miles.

If Delta had a 10 Billion mile liability (not close to the real #) valued at 0.4 cents each, and then 10% of these people redeem these miles, Delta can now value these tickets at full fare, or 4 cents/mile.

Delta had a 10,000,000,000 miles x $.004 = $40,000,000 Liability.

1,000,000,000 miles were redeemed at $.04 each = $40,000,000 to remove from our sheets.

:D:D Delta now has $0 miles liability! :D :D

:mad::mad: But what about the 9,000,000,000 miles customers still have in Delta accounts? :mad::mad:

The majority of these customers will try to redeem one day.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is true that when calculating liability, one part of the equation is what percentage of these miles will go unused (expiration or act holder never earns enough to redeem). However this figure is in the 20%-30% range of all miles earned.

The difference between what the airlines value miles at on the books and the value of full fare tickets is roughly 1000%.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More evidence airlines do not consider an award ticket as full fare value on the books:

Chase/Amex/Citi/BofA buy miles from UA/CO/DL/AA/AS for ~.7 cents each.

All of these airlines consider their program highly profitable. They account for the mileage program separately on their books, every year showing a significant profit contribution to the company.

If airline are getting .7 cents for the mile, but valueing redemptions at 4 cents/mile (full fare tickets), where is the profit coming from?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You still have not provided a source for your statement that airlines write off redemptions at full fare. This is an easy thing to state but I say it is false. Care to prove me wrong?

You must be a Cubs fan. You must have missed the part where I said you can go to the FASB website. To answer your question of do I want to prove it to you, no, I have better things to do with my time. Like right now, sitting in PHX, getting ready to go out to the pool at gf's lovely house and getting ready for Yankees-Red Sox later.

You must be a Cubs fan. You must have missed the part where I said you can go to the FASB website. To answer your question of do I want to prove it to you, no, I have better things to do with my time. Like right now, sitting in PHX, getting ready to go out to the pool at gf's lovely house and getting ready for Yankees-Red Sox later.

I just added a comment to a thread that I had some input to. I didn't come here to get into it with a flaming liberal idiot.

Huh, what is that all about? Do you guys have some history to explain it?

And what identifies wannaflyforless as a "liberal," "flaming" or "non-flaming"? And a Cubs fan, too?! For all we know, might he not in fact be a flaming conservative, libertarian, monarchist, anarchist, Zoarastrian, or whatever?

Gee, I didn't know that the subject of accounting could stir so much passion.:D

Huh, what is that all about? Do you guys have some history to explain it?
Beats me. :confused:
You must have missed the part where I said you can go to the FASB website.
I did. But I am not a professional accountant and am a little lost where I find out how much Delta writes off for every mileage award redeemed on fasb.org. If you could direct me to this section, I would appreciate it!
I have better things to do with my time. Like right now, sitting in PHX, getting ready to go out to the pool at gf's lovely house and getting ready for Yankees-Red Sox later.
Enjoy the pool and your lovely PHX weather! ^ (I envy your weather!)

If you ever have time, this "flaming liberal idiot" would like to know why my arguments are flawed.
If you don't have time to enlighten me, no problem. Perhaps I shall remain an idiot.

I really want to know.