Cathay Pacific Asia Miles - HKG on 4/6 morning, what happened?

I was wondering if anyone knows what happened in HKG on 4/6 morning.
Is the weather really bad?

CX's website shows that many flights arriving HKG betwwen 00:00 to 06:00 on 4/6 was diverted to other cities including TPE, CAN, MNL, etc.
However, the one that surprised me the most is that CX463, originally a TPE-HKG flight, managed to fly to CAN!
How could that even be possible given that "san tong" is still not yet officially approved, except for occasional charter flts.
Does anyone know what exactly happened to CX463?
Is anyone actually on that flt?

Many thanks!

Heavy fog the morning of 4/6. Two cargo ships crashed into each other inside HK waters.

Yes, I suspect fog is a problem. The visibility was below 200 m for a few hours at the airport this morning.

Although the fog has cleared, some flights diverted are still not back to HKG. Wonder if it is because the maximum working hours of crew have been exceeded and a new team is needed. This will be a big problem for flights to CAN - how are they going to get a new set of crew?

Yes, fog at water level was bad today with large ships moving slowly and sounding their horns every two seconds or so.

Sorry! Could not resist!

This will be a big problem for flights to CAN - how are they going to get a new set of crew?

Put them on the train?

On the HK news tonight, the flight from Taipei was delayed in CAN for 12 hours. Pax were not allowed off the aircraft and all they were offered was a sandwich. CX stated that the problem was due to maximum hours for the crew being reached.

This kind of thing happens once a while. Weather-related diversion is just one risk travellers have to take if they choose a flight which arrives HKG in the early morning hours in spring or summer - morning fog is not rare in spring and heavy rain in summer usually comes in the morning.

On the HK news tonight, the flight from Taipei was delayed in CAN for 12 hours. Pax were not allowed off the aircraft and all they were offered was a sandwich. CX stated that the problem was due to maximum hours for the crew being reached.

But CX463 originated from TPE! :confused: The crew must have overnighted in TPE and started their schedule from TPE. I am confused. :confused:

Not very good trouble management by CX given that CAN is a couple of hours at most by land from HKG. I guess this just shows how badly stretched CX are on crewing at the moment if they can't find two pilots to go get a plane from CAN (see various discussions on PPRUNE).

They should have turned back to TPE or go to KHH instead.

They should have turned back to TPE or go to KHH instead.

According to CX spokesperson quoted by the media, that flight did not have enough fuel to go back to Taiwan.

According to CX spokesperson quoted by the media, that flight did not have enough fuel to go back to Taiwan.

And that means a lousy flight plan! A flight originating TPE with only CAN as alternate airport but not KHH? That's ridiculous. They have to know they'll have problem accommodating various passengers that may not have rights to enter China, or China may not let people off the plane.

TPR is less than 90 minutes away. I am surprised the pilots were not advised of the situation before taking off or before the half-way point. I am also surprised that there was not enough fuel to get back to TPE.

According to CX spokesperson quoted by the media, that flight did not have enough fuel to go back to Taiwan.

Probably has nothing to do with fuel and instead of flight rights and TPE-PEK sensitivities. Non-chartered flight from Taiwan to China? Yea that's called a scramble at the foreign ministry to figure out what the hell to do. Not exactly a textbook for that I don't think. Let them off the plane and then what? Say that Taiwan-China commercial flights are open and ready for business? Not exactly a precedent you want set unless it's part of something deliberate. What if the pax don't have a China visa? They can't let them in the country. But then that flight can't go back to TPE because of Straits problems. So the only option is to fly to HK, but then the govt still has to figure out how they're going to rationalize the whole debacle in the first place. Pretty interesting

Why did CX use CAN instead of MFM as alternate? :confused:

I still can't understand how the crew be out of duty time when they originated from TPE? They are on duty for only 2-3 hours. :confused:

Why did CX use CAN instead of MFM as alternate? :confused:

I still can't understand how the crew be out of duty time when they originated from TPE? They are on duty for only 2-3 hours. :confused:

MFM was probably as foggy as HKG. They are just about 30-40km apart and located right at the same PRD opening.

The crew members had been on duty probably since about 5am. If the flight departed CAN at 8pm, they might be on duty for 16 hours by the time they were off, plus as they might have been flying round trip the day before already.

The crew members had been on duty probably since about 5am. If the flight departed CAN at 8pm, they might be on duty for 16 hours by the time they were off, plus as they might have been flying round trip the day before already.

Yes, just read a post written by a FA on a local forum (discuss.com.hk). It seems the shift involving 463 started the night before when the crew operated 462 HKG-TPE departing at 2300. It was said that the duty started at 2130 and the maximum working hours permitted by Civil Aviation Dept. is 11 hours, which means ending 0830 on Sunday, 30 mins after the scheduled arrivial of 463. The flight landed at CAN at 0940.

MFM was probably as foggy as HKG. They are just about 30-40km apart and located right at the same PRD opening.

The crew members had been on duty probably since about 5am. If the flight departed CAN at 8pm, they might be on duty for 16 hours by the time they were off, plus as they might have been flying round trip the day before already.

MFM was nearly as foggy (300-400m) as HKG tht time (200m). Therefore a more inland airport is preferable. At the same time, the TPE-HKG flight CX463, has a special split duty pattern from both cockpit n cabin crew. Their working hour started counting from they report duty on CX462 (last departure HKG-TPE), stay at TPE hotel for few hrs for a nap, then CX463 back to HKG. The whole pattern cannot exceed 11hrs according to HKCAD regulation. Thus after the diversion to CAN the crew has exceed its working hours.

As there are also others flights diverted to different places, CX were struggling to find enough standby cockpit n cabin crew to CAN and operate those flights back to HKG and hence the chaos. A lot of the scheduled shorthaul flights (ex-HKG) were departed with only minimum number of cabin crew.

TPE flights normally only carry enough fuel for flying back to HKG and with some extra for landing at a nearby airport, therefore insufficient fuel back to TPE is understandable, and no political issue has been involved. The long wait is becoz CX has to find enough crew to ferry to CAN.

....the TPE-HKG flight CX463, has a special split duty pattern from both cockpit n cabin crew. Their working hour started counting from they report duty on CX462 (last departure HKG-TPE), stay at TPE hotel for few hrs for a nap, then CX463 back to HKG. .....

Thank for your insight vlawkh, also to hadsst. ^

Wow! That's amazing! The crew essentially operated an overnight shift with a short break in between. There is only a 5:45 break between CX462 and CX463. Counting time for possible delay, CIQ clearance and transfer time, the crew hardly have time to take a nap.:eek:

Thank for your insight vlawkh, also to hadsst. ^

Wow! That's amazing! The crew essentially operated an overnight shift with a short break in between. There is only a 5:45 break between CX462 and CX463. Counting time for possible delay, CIQ clearance and transfer time, the crew hardly have time to take a nap.:eek:

That's why it was called a nap instead of sleep:D.

Anyone noticed that the On Time Departures statistic has disappeared from the CX website?

I think CX is still at fault for this and it should not be the passengers risk for this weather issue. Why do I say that? There are enough planes that got diverted to TPE already that came from North America... why did they let this plane depart on-time? They were probably trying to bet on the fog disappearing so they do not have to deal with the shortage of crew working cause the crews will hit their 11-hour working schedule if the flight does not depart. However, the worse came when MFM was also not an option to land, CAN became the only airport in reach. This is an administrative problem that CX is at fault... and all the passengers time (for around 12 hours or so) are only worth a cup of water, a cold nasty sandwich, and an USD 75 voucher (that can only be used on CX-related items)? USD 75/12 hours = 6.25 per hour! Of course the passengers on board will be very angry at Cathay's services. They should at least give people cash on this.

In some way, I felt that the LAX flight might have no choice, but a forced stay at Guangzhou... but I felt that CX should be somewhat accountable for the TPE flight nightmare. The most important part is the failure of the cockpit crews to load enough fuel for a return to TPE. CX knows that the relationship between the PRC and Taiwan, and it just makes no sense that first, the plane is even allowed to be taken off, and second, not to warn the cockpit crew about carrying extra fuels for some circling above Hong Kong and enough fuel to return to Hong Kong. (I know that pilots are often pressured not to carry too many fuel, but for weather like fogs, they know better. Diverting a TPE to HKG flight to Guangzhou means bad news right! Now they face more media scrutiny and more angry passengers.) It is a short flight and is an Airbus A330-300 that can easily fly for a long time without sacrificing cargo load. Also the crew hours are key but even if the crew hours are exceeded if they returned to TPE, it is just so much easier to rebook the 100+ passengers on the almost hourly TPE to HKG schedule shortly after. TPE is also a big base and CX has sufficient staff to deal with all these passengers. I honestly don't understand what CX is thinking here.

Long haul flights are somewhat understandable because the plane departed fourteen or fifteen hours before the fogs arrived. But for CX 463, CX has no excuse at all. It is just bad planning and even lack of common sense.

However, passengers should also be understanding and they all know well enough that China/PRC is not an "open" country and of course, they know they can't go off the plane especially Taiwanese folks on the TPE flights. I know they were tired, but commonsense should tell them that getting permission to let them deplane is better said than done. Also yelling at the F/As really did no good to anyone. F/As are just as helpless as you and have no control where they fly and how long the layover is. Their working schedule is planned by CX. Also Guangzhou is not a CX or Dragonair station, so people need to control a bit.

CX should be better in providing nicer food - Guangzhou is a major airport (not to mention a major city), not some small Chinese secondary airports. It is a bit hard to find fancy food, but I am sure they can order some rice or noodle dish, instead of cold sandwiches.

I feel bad for the F/As, who have to deal with these passengers, but this time, I really feel CX has dropped the ball somewhat. I feel that the CX 463 incident (Taipei to Hong Kong) can be avoidable by better planning and even a bit more common sense. The LA flight is different as the crew really had no idea about the worsened weather at Hong Kong the night before and fuel are short on these flights, but CX 463 should know better to carry enough fuel back to Taipei.

Carfield

In some way, I felt that the LAX flight might have no choice, but a forced stay at Guangzhou... but I felt that CX should be somewhat accountable for the TPE flight nightmare. The most important part is the failure of the cockpit crews to load enough fuel for a return to TPE. CX knows that the relationship between the PRC and Taiwan, and it just makes no sense that first, the plane is even allowed to be taken off, and second, not to warn the cockpit crew about carrying extra fuels for some circling above Hong Kong and enough fuel to return to Hong Kong. (I know that pilots are often pressured not to carry too many fuel, but for weather like fogs, they know better. Diverting a TPE to HKG flight to Guangzhou means bad news right! Now they face more media scrutiny and more angry passengers.) It is a short flight and is an Airbus A330-300 that can easily fly for a long time without sacrificing cargo load. Also the crew hours are key but even if the crew hours are exceeded if they returned to TPE, it is just so much easier to rebook the 100+ passengers on the almost hourly TPE to HKG schedule shortly after. TPE is also a big base and CX has sufficient staff to deal with all these passengers. I honestly don't understand what CX is thinking here.

Long haul flights are somewhat understandable because the plane departed fourteen or fifteen hours before the fogs arrived. But for CX 463, CX has no excuse at all. It is just bad planning and even lack of common sense.

However, passengers should also be understanding and they all know well enough that China/PRC is not an "open" country and of course, they know they can't go off the plane especially Taiwanese folks on the TPE flights. I know they were tired, but commonsense should tell them that getting permission to let them deplane is better said than done. Also yelling at the F/As really did no good to anyone. F/As are just as helpless as you and have no control where they fly and how long the layover is. Their working schedule is planned by CX. Also Guangzhou is not a CX or Dragonair station, so people need to control a bit.

CX should be better in providing nicer food - Guangzhou is a major airport (not to mention a major city), not some small Chinese secondary airports. It is a bit hard to find fancy food, but I am sure they can order some rice or noodle dish, instead of cold sandwiches.

I feel bad for the F/As, who have to deal with these passengers, but this time, I really feel CX has dropped the ball somewhat. I feel that the CX 463 incident (Taipei to Hong Kong) can be avoidable by better planning and even a bit more common sense. The LA flight is different as the crew really had no idea about the worsened weather at Hong Kong the night before and fuel are short on these flights, but CX 463 should know better to carry enough fuel back to Taipei.

Carfield

Worse still, CX apparantly had Guangzhou listed as the alternate airport if something befel HK. If so, they knew what could happen and should have made better contingencies.