MilesBuzz! - Help me use the points I have to get a family of 4 to Italy

ello,

I have not participated on this board in a few years. Raising children, working on my own business and supporting my wife in her's has limited my travel a great deal in the last few years.

However, my sister (husband, two kids) are living about 20 minutes outside of Rome until next March, and I would like advice on making the most of my MR points on planning a trip to visit them. My kids are 8 and 3, and I have never travelled internationally with them, so any input would be great.

I currently have a little over 77k Starpoints, more than 200k American Express points, 30k miles on Northwest, 30k miles on US Air, and a smattering of other points spread out amongst other airlines. (I think I have like 20k on AA, but I may have used them for something already.)

I have no real airline preference, but US Air and Southwest are the airlines I've been using the most since moving to PHX. I do not believe I currently have any airline status.

What airlines would you suggest? How much lead time to do I need to move points and book award tickets? And, what's the best way to get into Business Class or First Class seating without spending too much in additional money? And, what hotels would you suggest in Rome? (I believe my sister mentioned a Westin or Sheraton near where she lives.)

Thanks for any advice! (and if there might be a better place for me to ask these questions, please direct me to them.)

Hi NickyD, and welcome back to the joys of travel. Your questions seem to be focused more on how to get you and your family affordably to Italy, with the Starwood hotel question a secondary concern. I'm going to move your post onward to MilesBuzz, where I hope you'll find what you need.

When you figure out the name of the Starwood property near your sister, come back, do a search and see if we've covered it. Feel free to bump such a thread with specific questions you have - and if there is no such thread, start one.

Here's hoping it all clicks into place and you have a great trip.

SanDiego1K
Starwood Moderator

flatbed
UA PHX-IAD-FRA-FCO

lieflat
AF PHX-XXX-CDG-FCO
LH PHX-XXX-XXX-FCO
LX PHX-XXX-ZRH-FCO
NW PHX-XXX-XXX-FCO*

lieflat?
AZ PHX-XXX-FCO

RT J upgrades possible via amex
AF - 50K
LH - from 56K**
LX - from 56K**
UA - 56K**
AZ - 50K
**upgrade only across atlantic, via NH
*only one you cannot upgrade via amex

only 3 possibilities for that property near your sister >
Sheraton Roma Hotel & Conference Center/4.56 miles/cat 4
Sheraton Golf Parco de' Medici Hotel & Resort, Roma/7.52 miles/cat 3
Four Points by Sheraton Roma West Hotel/8.8 miles/cat 3
(distance from roma/city center)

Sheraton Roma Hotel has a club lounge

cat 3 - 7K (1 nt) / 28K (5 nts) / 2800+$45 (1 nt)
cat 4 - 10K (1 nt) / 40K (5 nts) / 4000+$60 (1 nt)

with 77K SPG you could afford to upgrade, or add 1 nt in roma >
westin - 20K/25K or 8000+$150
st regis / eden - 30K/35K

Thanks Kagehitokiri!

Once I figure out how to translate that exactly... ;)

RT J = roundtrip business class

airline/airport codes can be found via FT glossary or google search

Frankly, this late in the game it's going to be challenging to find award seats for summer flights to Europe without either being an elite member or using double miles for the award. I don't know about the American Express miles and how you can use them; that's the one pot that's big enough for you to have a chance with for enough seats for a family. But you should probably also look into options for buying tickets too...

Frankly, this late in the game it's going to be challenging to find award seats for summer flights to Europe without either being an elite member or using double miles for the award. I don't know about the American Express miles and how you can use them; that's the one pot that's big enough for you to have a chance with for enough seats for a family. But you should probably also look into options for buying tickets too...

Indeed it is very difficult to get award seats to Europe on all airlines. Also it is difficult to find a flight back, because European like now travel to US because of the cheap USD.

How much lead time to do I need to move points and book award tickets? And, what's the best way to get into Business Class or First Class seating without spending too much in additional money? And, what hotels would you suggest in Rome? (I believe my sister mentioned a Westin or Sheraton near where she lives.)
First of all, you cannot move miles out of NW, you cannot move miles out of UA, and moving between airlines (even when it's possible) involves a huge loss of value, so it's only worth it when yhou have tons of miles in one airline and only need a handful of miles in another, which isn't your case.

And according to the Mileage Converter tool at WebFlyer (http://www.webflyer.com/), you can't convert AMEX MR points directly to Northwest or US Air either.

Therefore, it seems to me that your NW and US miles are not going to help you here (since neither of them is enough to get you even one trans-atlantic ticket).

Next, 200K miles divided by 4 people is 50k miles per person, which is exactly what it costs for "capacity controlled" economy (coach) tickets US<->Europe on many airlines (though some airliens, such as AA, have 40k off-peak season and 60k peak season). The only way to upgrade to the next class up is by using double the miles, which you don't have (unless you only use miles for 2 people, or unless you convert your Starpoints to miles at the same airline, in which case theoretically one person could get a next-class-up award instead of coach.

I didn't see you specify when you need to get (except well before next March). Consider that you'l be able to buy way chaper tickets for cash in the fall, while (except at a few airlines like AA) the award cost won't go down. (On the other hand, awards may be hard to find at all except in "low" or "shoulder" season!)

Please understand that the awards at these levels (about 50k per person for coach US<->Europe, about 100k per person for Business) are very "capacity controlled", and thus you have to be extremely flexible about dates, and with a party of 4 your quite likely have to split up between different planes (likely on different days!). (It's hard enough to get 1 or 2 award seats on a plane, getting 4 is way harder.)

Meanwhile, there's one very important thing you need to know about European hotels and traveling with 2 children: Many "business" hotels in European cities don't have any rooms that can accomodate 4, or only a few suites that can. So don't assume that you can use whatever Starwood hotel at whatever rate is quoted until you verify that the reward rooms there will accomodate your whole family (because obviously if you need two adjoining rooms you have to pay double the reward rate, and if you need a suite that might be a higher rate).

Call NWA World Vacations and have them cost out a trip both with money and miles.




We did Italy last year, paid for the hotel and air, used miles to upgrade to Business.

We found them easy to work with on some complex travel.

Move what miles you can without much loss of value or use for hotel.

The chances of finding 4 seats in J, whether award or upgrade, are pretty slim. Sorry, but if you want to ride in the front of the plane I suspect you'll have to pay for it.

Personally, I'd check out a package on GoToday, Gate1, or Lastminutetravel. At least one of these sites probably offers a hotel that's in the area of Rome you're looking for.

OP has a whole year. how about less "thats impossible" and more suggestions on what is most likely available / strategies for booking.

My kids moved some miles around and snagged 4 award Biz Class Tickets from LAX/Rome on Swiss Airlines (LX). Think they got those awards with about 4 months lead time and it was for Spring Break Season. They leave the end of next week. Got the exact date they wanted.

Some ideas, not necessarily for the full trip but some strategies that might help.

1. Amex MR points are usable as cash if you book your tickets (or flight + hotel package) at americanexpress.com. Not necessarily a good value, basically 1 cent per mile, so 200,000 points will pay up to $2000.00 of value. You have to book at the Amex site. At checkout you're prompted to log in to Amex (if you haven't already - same login as for paying your bill online) and can designate how many points you want to use as cash.

2. 77,000 SPG Starpoints are good currency for transferring to airlines. Starwood gives you an extra 5000 points into the transfer for every round lot of 20,000 SPG points transferred. So if you could get your SPG balance up to 80,000 points, you could transfer 80,000 points from SPG to NW, and receive 100,000 NW miles into your NW account. That's one business class (if you can find it) on NW, KLM, Delta, Continental, Alitalia, Air France, Czech Air, Aeroflot, or any combination of the above (all partners in Skyteam along with several other airlines.) Not all of them can be booked online - you'd need to call NW when you have time and when they're not busy with weather delays and such as all that. There are lots of possible routings once you start looking at partners.

3. How would you get the extra 3000 starpoints? I usually don't recommend transferring Amex MR points to SPG, because it takes 1000 Amex points for only 333 SPG points. But for "topping off" an account to an award threshold, it's worth it. It would take 9000 of your amex points (which would reduce the points available for spend as cash by $90 of value).

Another way: Amex has a Starwood Preferred Guest credit card, which almost always has a 10,000 point bonus around. Ads are often right here on FT. The bonus, plus spend on that card might easily get you even more SPG points to transfer.

4. Amex points do transfer 1:1 to Delta. As noted in #2 above, Delta is also in Skyteam. You can't combine miles between different Skyteam partners. But you might be able to get the same award, perhaps on Air France or Alitalia, with one ticket from Delta using 100,000 DL miles (transferred from Amex MR) and another on the same flights from NW using 100,000 NW miles (transferred as 80,000 SPG points -> 100,000 NW miles). Delta also often has 15% or 20% bonus promotions when transferring from Amex into Delta.

5. You're probably not going to get everyone over there for free. You probably can get 2 people over there for free, maybe 3. If you have to buy one ticket, make sure it is YOUR ticket you buy, so that you earn the miles/points in your FF account.

6. Do searches on FlyerTalk for KVS Availability Tool, and for ExpertFlyer, both of which are services/tools which for a small fee, provide visibility into award inventory on various airlines. For KVS (which is an application you download), you have to pay $30 for the Platinum level in order to search award availability - well worth it because it also adds several other features. I haven't used ExpertFlyer (I think that's web-based and has a fee), but many FTers swear by that as well. Keep in mind, what Airline B in an alliance thinks that Airline C in that same alliance has available for an award, isn't necessarily what Airline A in that same alliance sees as available from Airline C. It should be but it often isn't. Or you have to suggest each possible routing to the agent because it might be available to them but not pop up automatically on their screen. Delta can probably access Aeroflot flights from the US to Moscow connecting to an Alitalia Moscow to Rome, for example, but they might not have that appear on a JFK-FCO (Rome) request.

Good luck and let us know how it is working out!

".. I currently have a little over 77k Starpoints, more than 200k American Express points, 30k miles on Northwest, 30k miles on US Air, and a smattering of other points spread out amongst other airlines.
What airlines would you suggest? How much lead time to do I need to move points and book award tickets? "

As above, the smattering of airline miles won't get you much, but the AMEX offers some strong possibilities.
Realize that AMEX has their own 'travel agency', where you CAN burn those points without converting ~ remember those obnoxious TV ads? :D Start looking at www.americanexpress.com/travel/ (http://www.americanexpress.com/travel/).

How it works (roughly): their agency deducts your points & buys the tix according to agreed preferences/schedule. You can typically expect those to be 'normal' tix, earning regular creditable miles on your carrier/alliance of choice.
If you're short on points for the package, they'll gladly charge you the additional (and you earn more points).

Generally, CC points aren't really such a great deal ~ but for what you have to work with in this situation, it's not all bad.

Dial 'em up & see what they have to say, before you start moving points around willy-nilly.
Good Luck
/.

OP has a whole year. how about less "thats impossible" and more suggestions on what is most likely available / strategies for booking.

Several years ago, I (mistakenly) thought the first day that reward seats came online was 300 days out, not 330. The phone rep told me "There's no way you will find two reward seats. You're a month late." Where there's a will, there's a way. We were flying to Brazil to see my wife's family. We had planned this trip for three years. I don't fly much for business, and pgary's website is how I earn most of my miles. I don't want to fly first class, I just want to get there by the hair on my chinny-chin-chin.

To get around the problem, I had the rep check every (reasonable) gateway city for two award seats on or around our desired days. I needed to coach her a bit, and gave her some humble suggestions. Nearly sixty minutes later, we had two free seats from JFK down to Sao Paulo (we live in Tampa). I then had 300 days to find a free/cheap flight up to JFK from Tampa. I found a fabulous price (so cheap it wasn't worth cashing in miles for), and they even checked our luggage straight through. I love telling that story - because I "worked" for it. If I could just earn millions of points/miles, where's the adventure in getting first class tickets at the drop of a hat? If you can do that, you can probably afford to buy a ticket with cash. I'm a (nearly) starving musician, doing what I love and feel called to do. But, alas, I also have the travel bug. I work hard for my money, and I expect it to work hard for me as well.

You can do it! It's not impossible!

for those who dont know - amex membership rewards is like starwood and diners club, you can transfer at 1:1 into a number of FFPs

First, you have to decide when you want to go. Are you willing to go during school year and take your 8 yrs old out of school? If yes, then you might have a chance at getting 4 'capacity controlled' award on one airline. Call up airlines which AIX MR points can be transfer to and check for award availability before you transfer your points.

If you have to travel during summer or school holidays, then your chance of getting 4 'capacity controlled' award tickets is very slim. It can be done but usually only if you book 330 days ahead of time. Instead, consider a non-capacity controlled' award which will cost you twice the number of miles but have more availability. You might have to buy 2 tickets.

Starwood points can also be converted to airline miles. You can convert 20K points into 25K miles on many airlines.

Regarding travel with kids, think entertainment: DVD, Nintendo DS, color pencils etc.. Also, some kids have trouble with the changing pressure during takeoff and landing. Chewing gum seems to help.

OP has a whole year. how about less "thats impossible" and more suggestions on what is most likely available / strategies for booking.How about a little reality?

The OP barely has enough points and miles if he took the total of all his accounts and mixed them together (which of course cannot be done) to buy 4 J tickets to Europe (not even considering availability).

Transfering all of the Amex points to one program would be about enough to upgrade 4 tickets, but again, confirmed upgrades for 4 would likely be a problem.

Some might think that letting the OP know that other options might want to be considered is a helpful suggestion.

gre >

1. we dont know how the OP wants to fly (2 J 2 Y etc)
2. he can afford 4 RT J upgrades (could also do OW)
3. see obscure2k's post (and plenty of other success stories)

i was only commenting on the "4 J awards is impossible" posts.

Thank you all for your great advice. I knew that coming back to these forums would be the best place to ask.

I do have a little bit of lead time...but, it seems 330 days out is coming very quickly. My wife and I own our own businesses, and my son goes to a private (charter) school, so we can travel virtually at anytime.

I do realize that I may have to pay some out of pocket expenses, but I was hoping that if there were a way somebody here would be able to point it out. As RicoSuave suggests, I am willing to work a little at it to get to where we want to go...

Thanks for the advice about the kids; though I have travelled with my children domestically, an international flight taking 18 hours might be asking a little much of them. (They both have video game type things, but that's a long time to ask anybody to sit still.)

The idea of topping off the points intrigues me. Due to the nature of our businesses my wife and I could conceivably add 20-30k Amex points a month... But, I don't think that gives us enough lead time to book award travel by next March.

i would actually suggest putting spending onto starwood amex card for the most flexibility.

question - would you consider putting the kids in economy while you are in business? (not meant to be read as a suggestion either way)

if you dont have an NH (all nippon airways) account yet, id suggest getting one setup.

hotel wise, id see how far those 3 hotels are from your sister, then what room categories they offer for awards, and what will accommodate 2 adults + 2 kids.

I am surprised that no one has suggested tCC to OP, who would be best off if he could combine miles/points in different programs, which he might be able to do through trades with fellow FTers.

Since Amex maps 1:1 for miles with a number of different airlines, and SPG can be converted 4:5 for some airline miles and sometimes traded for a somewhat better ratio, it looks to me like he has the equivalent of about
300K airline miles. Maybe someone would want his US and NW miles, and for them give him miles with his targeted airline, getting him close to 350K miles. Then it is a question of how many miles for seats or upgrades with different carriers at different times, and of award availability.

He says that he has followed pgary's advice in accruing miles/points, so I assume he has taken advantage of the various possibilities to accrue miles and points already. If he hasn't, then obviously that is the way for him to get himself a bit further toward his goal.

Hotel points (SPG) may provide more regular value than airline miles, but airline miles may provide greater value depending on the circumstances, particularly for business or first class travel. So if SPG will be worth the most to him, he should hold onto them; if air miles would provide greater value, then he ought to trade SPG for them. As a benchmark, the OP can figure that people will impute a value of 2.0 to 2.5 cpp for SPG, and when used should give a value of 3.0 to 3.5 cpp.

You could go for 4 business tickets on Delta round trip.
You will need 360,000 miles + 185 dollars. I found inverntory on continental.com from Feb 9 - Feb 11, 2009. Horrible dates I know, but it's available at the 330 day window.
Inventory seems to be more readily available on Delta.com
You can also mix/match and do half Business, half Economy for 280,000 miles.

The AA 40,000 Off Peak Economy awards seem readily available.
You and your wife can get two/three Citi AAdvantage cards each and easily get 150,000 miles.

If you have AMEX Platinum you should use your status for additional award inventories. I believe you get status on one or more airlines. Someone else can maybe confirm this?

question - would you consider putting the kids in economy while you are in business?

Um - the kids are 3 and 8.

I realize that paying cash for a flight is heresy to a true FlyerTalker (ricosuave's post about paying for a flight to JFK, notwithstanding...) but, if the OP can find a flight to a gateway airport in Europe, he can pay cash for an intra-Europe flight to Italy. An example would be if he is able to get a flight to Frankfurt, using miles, he can get a flight from there to Rome for a reasonable amount. Lufthansa currently has round-trip flights from FRA to ROM during August for $109 pp all-in. It would be an extra $436 for the four of them, but it might be easier to find a flight to Frankfurt using miles...

itsme, good point, amex points seem to trade well in coupon connection.

sjefenole, amex platinum doesnt come with any airline status, just some lounge access. (centurion comes with a bunch of airline status)

Kate_Canuck, i didnt think the OP could be any more flexible, until i thought of that. thought it was worth asking.

Instead of using your points for hotel stays, you might want to seriously think about renting an apartment in Rome. Since it seems that you can go in the off season, you can probably get a pretty good deal, and it would be a lot more comfortable for 4 people. We have done this the last few times we went to Rome, and it is very enjoyable to set up a home base, shop for groceries, etc. Since your sister is already in Rome, she could perhaps recommend some good locations for you. There are other apartment websites out there, but www.vrbo.com has many listings in Rome and the surrounding areas, and would probably be a good place to start.

If you can get your Amex points into BMI miles, then there is a chance that you'll be okay. UK Amex MR transfers to BMI from which you can do a 'Cash + Miles' redemption' for not much money plus taxes.

As I recall, it is 50k BMImiles + ~£200 + tax for a First class (2/3 of this for Business Class) from USA to Europe Region 1. Italy is is region 2, but I suspect that would not be too much more.

You could get the LH flight from LAX to FRA or the UA flight LAX-LHR or NZ LAX-LHR or ......., you get the idea. With so many possibilities there is always the possibility of OP + 1 on one airline and Mrs OP + other on another, but travelling similar times / routes

Can someone advise if the OP has a possibility of getting US Amex MR into BMI ?

BD is a UK partner, unfortunately not US

There is always a way, but it takes some administrative work on your part. At first glance, based on everything I have done, I would say AA is the best airline of choice here.

Either way, you have some work cut out for you. There are several great threads on earning miles by the uber-amounts. Especially with AA.

If this is worth your extensive time and energy then there are always solutions based on what you start with (with me and some friends, it is, and we love to WIN the mileage game anyway, so the rise ya get out that might outweigh time costs spent).

Let's see...
You said:

I currently have a little over 77k Starpoints, more than 200k American Express points, 30k miles on Northwest, 30k miles on US Air, and a smattering of other points spread out amongst other airlines. (I think I have like 20k on AA, but I may have used them for something already.)

1) try to forego the first or business class thing. Not worth the extra work, really. If you must do it, have less people or start with more miles or give yourself a while to gather said miles. You don't currently have enough to cover everyone in this way unless you fly a ton or do a lot of other activity concentrated in one area starting like NOW.

2) try to not go in summer months to Europe (late may to early sept). Generally, it is tougher to get tickets using miles in any class. AA is usually the only airline I have ever had success with that, but they connect thru LHR from where I live (BOS) and there's always higher taxes and the pains of traveling thru LHR.

3) I would avoid burning up SPG points on conversions to airlines, and yet that is a viable way to get some into say, your AA account. If you had planned to use them for a hotel you'd be better off. (in my opinion, this is a better option seeing as how 1 10,000 point room for 3 nights can fit more than one person --totalling to 30,000 used points, for example, where as 30k airline miles is still less than ONE person's std coach seat to Europe!) I tend to try not to touch my SPG points unless going to someplace really nice with a nice resort where they are worth it. Not to say Italy is not, but hey, if you are there, try a local hotel or B&B! Even a one off that offers or accepts no points will be worth the money in Europe. If you do do this, then by all means, convert the SPG points to miles. You should get a bonus for doing that but ask SPG how this works. I know if you convert 20k SPG they will give you 25k AA, so ask how this works when you convert 77K.

4) I would then consider using the AMEX points for any hotel stays, or other things they work for. Converting them to miles will suffer a loss, as said earlier. MAYBE you can snag one ticket with them, and now you only need 3 more, but to get them all to match up as the same flight itinerary for two different flights when trying to use two different forms of redemption (miles and AMEX MR points) will be tough. Again, it will take much administrative time on your part.

5) consider trades and help from friends and family and trusted co-workers who have miles. Perhaps that guy in Accounting has enough for one 50k EU ticket on AA and he needs to fly someplace that only NWA goes. You get him his ticket with that 30k, tell him you will loan him your condo near the golf course for 2 weekends, and voila! You are even! Same with the US Air! Or maybe, since AA tickets to EU are 60k in summer, not 50k, give him a ticket to destination 1 on US Air using 30k and another ticket to destination 2 on NWA using 30k. It may be hard to find such a guy in Accounting, but he could exist. Only you know your own network and how much everyone would be willing to play. Dealing with co-workers can be dicey, but I have done it. In all cases, should you attempt this sort of thing, please do make upfront understandings and do NOT involve or tell the airlines about it! anyone can book anyone else an award, but no one needs to know why, now do they? You could just say you are bringing him back some fine Italian wine*

In the end, you need miles in ONE place. I suggest AA because, well, they are the easiest on redemption (at least in my experience, and that of many in FT). They also let you hold partly booked or fully set up reservations when using awards. These holds can be up to 2 weeks and I have seen cases where they can be extended. When you are collecting miles, it's a great feature no other airline really can match. You can also--and this MAY be true with other aliances--find ways with savvy phone agents in the AA international dept--use one carrier to get there and a different one to get home, as long as they are in the same alliance and you are not worried about where you connect. In fact, if you play it right, you could even find a way to stop off in other place and add THAT to the value of your trip!

Good luck!
:)MM

flatbed
UA PHX-IAD-FRA-FCO

lieflat
AF PHX-XXX-CDG-FCO
LH PHX-XXX-XXX-FCO
LX PHX-XXX-ZRH-FCO
NW PHX-XXX-XXX-FCO*

lieflat?
AZ PHX-XXX-FCO

RT J upgrades possible via amex
AF - 50K
LH - from 56K**
LX - from 56K**
UA - 56K**
AZ - 50K
**upgrade only across atlantic, via NH
*only one you cannot upgrade via amex

AA (lieflat J) awards (not upgrades) are possible via mexicana. their 1 stop would be at ORD or JFK.

Marathon Man >
1. from your post it seems youre suggesting any miles beside AA are worthless to OP?
2. amex points transfer to a number of FFPs at 1:1 ratio
3. starwood points do likewise for most FFPs, making them the best hotel program for miles, and with their continued increases in hotel awards, its possible to consider them the best hotel program solely because of that. marriott is the only program to come anywhere near starwood in terms of earning miles via stays.
4. the value of a starwood award at the hotels mentioned would be fair, especially cash + points

AA (lieflat J) awards (not upgrades) are possible via mexicana. their 1 stop would be at ORD or JFK.

hmm, also regarding NW, would it be possible to upgrade via flying blue(i used AF above) if it is a KL flight number, since flying blue is AF/KL?

Marathon Man >
1. from your post it seems youre suggesting any miles beside AA are worthless to OP?
2. amex points transfer to a number of FFPs at 1:1 ratio
3. starwood points do likewise for most FFPs, making them the best hotel program for miles, and with their continued increases in hotel awards, its possible to consider them the best hotel program solely because of that. marriott is the only program to come anywhere near starwood in terms of earning miles via stays.
4. the value of a starwood award at the hotels mentioned would be fair, especially cash + points

good points--and I do like your posts because of the air-savvy tech data! Makes sense, what you have proposed.

No, I just happen to find AA user friendly in more cases than the others. I think you could more easily do this with AA. I could be wrong, but again, I base it on my own experience and I have significant history with europe travel over all.

Did not know AMEX rewards were that good. In that sense, you have enough for at least 4 50 econ tix. Now, getting them on one airline is doable (we use 50k awards on NWA all the time, and have had success with UA< a US Air partner) but getting them in busy season will be more difficult. We do not yet know when the OP is planning to travel, but my experience with busy season is that AA, once again, is the best for redemption.

Hotels: it depends on whether OP is going to stay at one or need those points later for stays on other trips, or if the OP plans to just get there and worry about stays in another way. Not clear.

gotcha. it sounded to me like OP was pretty flexible in terms of travel time and perhaps accommodations as well, and was primarily interested in traveling in business class.

Don´t US airlines have discounts for kids? In many European programs kids get to travel for less miles and most certainly for less money. If buying some of the tickets, I therefore suggest looking at buying children´s tickets and using miles to get adult tix. Should also make availability much less of a problem.

p.s. I wouldn´t go to Rome in summer, but rather in late september-late november. But as the OP lives in a desert, he´s probably used to high temps.

At first glance, based on everything I have done, I would say AA is the best airline of choice here.
That's an odd choice, MM. Perfect for you, because you're a big AA fan and have many miles invested in AA. However the OP has little-to-no miles in AA. He's got the most miles in Amex MR, which does not transfer to AA. He's got the 2nd most miles in NW, which has zero partnerships with AA. AA makes no sense for him whatsoever IMHO.


1) try to forego the first or business class thing. Not worth the extra work, really. If you must do it, have less people or start with more miles or give yourself a while to gather said miles. You don't currently have enough to cover everyone in this way unless you fly a ton or do a lot of other activity concentrated in one area starting like NOW.

Agree with you here. I often find laughable the FT-uber-eliteness attitude of "I won't cross an ocean in economy". Trust me, you survive. The 2 kids won't know the difference and the adults will be just fine for the 6-12 hours of the flight. 200,000 miles for 4 Y awards is a lot more attainable than 360-400,000 for 4 C/J (both assuming "saver" restricted availability awards at the usual 50K Y for most domestic airlines and 80K to 100K depending on airline for C/J to Europe.)


2) try to not go in summer months to Europe (late may to early sept). Partially agree. Certainly easier off-season but if booking early enough, and call the airline to discuss all the possible routings including partners, NOT just what shows on their online award booking, it's usually possible. That means 330 days out from the dates of flights. I was able to get MsXS a 50K Y Star Alliance mixed-carrier award out to Madrid, back from Rome, with UA miles in June of last year by booking 330 days out earlier. I got MrsXS a 50K UA Y award to LHR for this August back in January. There's some stuff available via NW miles right now to Europe from what I see.


3) I would avoid burning up SPG points on conversions to airlines, and yet that is a viable way to get some into say, your AA account.

Avoiding SPG conversions to airlines is bad/silly advice, for the OP, again IMHO. He's scrounging for miles. SPG point conversions are a great way to get those miles. Except for the relatively few airlines which only allow 2:1 transfers - you never want to transfer SPG into UA or CO, because they require 2 points to 1 mile. Everybody else is 1 point to 1 mile, plus the bonus you mention. BTW that bonus is 5000 extra Starpoints thrown into the conversion when you convert 20,000 miles. It only works in blocks of 20,000.

For the OP, as I laid out in my prior post, converting 77K SPG points would be 3 blocks of 20,000 SPG points (60,000 points) plus 3 blocks of 5000 free bonus SPG points (15,000 points free), plus the other 17,000 points of his original 77K (no bonus for blocks smaller than 20K). So his request to transfer 77,000 points would result in 92,000 points being transferred into miles in whatever the target program was. If the OP is going to transfer 77,000 points I would strongly advise he find some way to first earn 3000 more SPG points, so that the transfer would be 4 round lots of 20,000 each. The 3,000 extra SPG points to round up to 80,000 would result in 100,000 miles. Which would be two Economy tickets to Europe right there.


4) I would then consider using the AMEX points for any hotel stays, or other things they work for. Converting them to miles will suffer a loss, as said earlier. TOTAL misinformation. Amex points transfer at 1:1 to every partner airline that is miles-based. And often, Amex has transfer promo options. Many times you can get a 15-25% bonus on transfers into Delta. I'm talking about the original 'full' Membership Rewards program (which I think they now call "Plus", not the crappy half-points MR "Options" program for people who only have a credit (not charge) card.

Amex to hotels is often not a good deal. For example, Amex (I'm talking Amex Membership Rewards from the green/gold/platinum and optima non-affiliate cards, not the Amex SPG) transfer at 1000 Amex:333 SPG, a lousy rate. They transfer at 1000 Amex:1300 Hilton, which seems good until you realize that for comparable Starwood / Hilton properties (let's use the Le Meridien Montparnasse and the Hilton Paris as examples), the SPG property requires only 10,000 points while the Hilton requires 40,000 for one night.


MAYBE you can snag one ticket with them, and now you only need 3 more, but to get them all to match up as the same flight itinerary for two different flights when trying to use two different forms of redemption (miles and AMEX MR points) will be tough. Again, it will take much administrative time on your part.
As an AA flyer you don't seem to know how Amex MR works, which is understandable since they're not partners. You don't redeem Amex points for flights. You either transfer them to an airline program as I mentioned above, or you BUY a ticket from Amex's online travel agency on any flight you want, and use the points at 1 cent/point as partial or full payment for that flight. Perhaps if the OP can only get award availability for a couple of seats on a flight, he could buy the additional ticket(s) using points towards payment. Not a great value to use 50,000 points as $500. But if the 4th ticket at the 50,000 mile level award seat isn't available, the ticket costs $900 to buy, and the airline wants 100,000 miles for the "Pass" (AAnytime, Standard, PerkPass, SkyChoice, etc.) award, then 90,000 Amex point as $900 payment is better than 100,000 miles used for the ticket. In this case the OP should make sure that the ticket he "buys" with points is his own ticket. That's because as far as the airline is concerned, that's a regular revenue mileage-earning ticket so he'll earn the miles for the flight.

5) consider trades and help from friends and family and trusted co-workers who have miles. [/quote] Perhaps ok, but I think maybe too complicated and risky for the OP's situation. If he does so, your advice about how to and not to explain the situation (in your full post, not quoted here) is very good.


In the end, you need miles in ONE place. Agree for the most part. Unless it makes sense to "top off" the NW account to 50K to get one NW/KL/AZ/AF/whomever-skyteam award from them, and the other flights from Delta. If you're flying NW/KL to Europe, it's possible that NW WorldPerks will retain some availability on NW and joint-venture-partner KLM even after NW and KL stop making it available to DL members. So an SPG xfer into NW to top it off, plus the rest of them into DL along with the Amex miles into DL, might also work.

But that one place shouldn't be AA. I don't see AA working for him at all, because his largest block of miles (Amex) has no way to get into AA other than Amex purchase-with-points. He only has $2000 of value if using that way. He has 4 coach Skyteam tickets just from Amex points if he transfers them into Delta (and if he can find 50K level awards).

Also - AA doesn't let you mix and match Standard/Saver or Business/Coach, does it? DL's and NW's programs do - so he could get a C award outbound at the Saver level for 1/2 of 100,000, with coach on the return for 1/2 of 50,000, thus 75,000 miles. Same concept if only "Pass/Choice" double-miles level available on one of the legs. Coach "Saver" at 25,000 1-way plus Coach "Pass" at 50K, for 75,000. Not great, but better than having to pay the full double-miles if any leg needed the higher amount.

Bottom line: he should go for awards on a SkyTeam carrier, from either or both Delta and Northwest's programs. If credit is good, opening up a Delta Amex and a NW US Bank Visa could bag him about 20K bonus in each program. Between that and an SPG Amex for 10K bonus, he would definitely have enough miles around to get the tickets with some good planning.

Oh one more thing. I know it's a family trip and togetherness is nice and all that. But be open to 1 adult + 1 kid on one flight, other adult + other kid on another. It'll be an adventure. No reason one group couldn't fly PHX-ATL on DL, ATL-AMS on KL, AMS-FCO on KL or AZ with miles from NW, while the other flew PHX-DTW-JFK on NW, JFK-FCO on AZ (Alitalia) using Delta miles.
Or PHX-EWR-FCO on CO using DL or NW miles. Which CO routing BTW is available at the saver level in coach for 4 seats right now for July 24, as an example.


[KVS Availability Tool 3.0.5/Platinum - ORT: Awards/SkyTeam/US-NWA]

PHX Phoenix Sky Harbor Int'l AZ US [KPHX]
FCO Rome Fiumicino IT [LIRF]
THU 24 Jul 2008 / 4 Seats

Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C Availability
--------- ------ ---- --------- ---- --------- ---- ---- ----------------
CO 1434 PHX 10:35 EWR 18:39 737 CS- CA+ YS+ YA+
-> CO 42 EWR 22:05 FCO 00:30 +1 767
CO 734 PHX 06:45 EWR 14:35 737 CS- CA+ YS+ YA+
-> CO 40 EWR 17:25 FCO 07:45 777


Getting back in August, for example, looks a bit harder. But in early-mid August (I looked by segment, FCO-AMS, AMS-DTW on Aug 7 for example), AF/KL have availability from Rome to Amsterdam by connecting in Paris, and NW has availability from Paris to Detroit, so a routing like FCO-CDG-AMS-DTW gets you back into the States, and probably there's something you can find to get home from there. Or a few extra miles for that domestic segment. Or do the return from FCO on your desired routing as a "Pass/Choice" award and you have 4 tickets for 75K each, 300,000 total. Which you have by transferring 200,000 into Delta from Amex and 80,000=100,000 w/bonus from SPG into Delta. Other dates, you might be able to find a saver return. If you find dates with saver, perhaps you can do a 75K/ticket business outbound, coach return. The business leg will be on the overnight TATL so you'll arrive fresher. The return is a daytime flight anyhow, make it home and sleep.

You're together all the time at home, you're going to be together for the wonderful time in Roma, 18 hours of connecting flights apart isn't going to cause a problem.

MarkXS >
marathon man acknowledged those things after i clarified...

i would assume the OP is willing to take the 8 year old out of a couple days of school. not like an 8 year old is missing that much.

Helsinki Flyer, not sure about discounts, but as you referenced EU programs, OP would have access to flying blue and AZ.

* for UAers, hows avail been for new J IAD-FRA?

* for SkyTeamers, is AZ J lieflat?
* also, regarding NW, would it be possible to upgrade via flying blue(i used AF above) if it is a KL flight number, since flying blue is AF/KL?

Sorry I missed mm's later reply acknowledging the Amex 1:1 when I wrote that. My points still valid IMHO though, including AA isn't the right choice for the OP's situation, and that for him SPG-to-Airline is probably a better bet than SPG for hotels, and Amex to Hotels isn't the best use either.

UA's new J (or C as most *A airlines call business) is essentially impossible to get an award on at the saver 80K level. In fact it's practically impossible to get C awards on UA's own metal at all. Upgrades to C from W-or-higher paid Y with SWUs are difficult at times, especially on the new config which has fewer C seats. Also there are very few reconfigured plans, UA is taking their sweet time. I think there are only 2 767s and 1 747 reconfigured out of the whole fleet right now.

But the bigger reason is: The OP has zero way of getting a reasonable amount of UA miles out of his current earnings. His 200K Amex can't get into UA at all, they're not a partner. It could go into either ANA or Air Canada from Amex. That's a possibility. He'd lose half his SPG value transferring into UA due to the 2:1 ratio. However, SPG also goes into ANA at 1:1. Transfer all the Amex to ANA, get 3K more SPG and transfer 80K to ANA which results in 100K in ANA from the SPG bonus, and he's got 300,000 in ANA. At least the miles going into ANA, we can all hope that the *A availability shown on the famous ANA tool is in fact available with ANA miles.

Also Amex MR now allows a Points Advance of 15,000 miles, though they will charge you at a crappy rate if you don't earn them back within 1 year. The Rewards Plus card used to have a free 10K advance that wouldn't get charged on a specific date (unless you canceled before earning back). In either case, there's another 10 or 15K miles available from Amex, as long as the OP can expect to earn them back in time. So now we're talking 315,000 ANA miles without trying hard. If OP and his spouse each open separate SPG Amex cards with the 10K bonus each, and then one transfers SPG-SPG to the other's account, there's another 20K SPG points in 1 account. Transfer that 20K SPG-ANA, that gives 25K ANA received, now we're at 340,000 ANA.

ANA is changing from a fixed to a distance-based structure for some awards, but we might be in the ballpark for what the OP wants here.

Might be worth it for the OP to check what's available via ANA miles. Might be able to get across the pond on AC or LH including connections via Toronto (YYZ), then something down to Rome from FRA or MUC if AC doesn't have availability on their YYZ-FCO nonstop. YYZ is very easy for *A US-to-International transfers, you don't go through the full customs routine, just a special streamlined immigration check that dumps you right back by the international departure gates with no extra CTSA security check.

now you have "misinformation" ;)

you can upgrade on UA (and LH and LX) via NH at the amount i stated earlier. i worked out all the lieflat options.

the only one im not sure can be upgraded is NW. or KL. or whatever, i dont have a clue how flying blue (AF/KL) interfaces with the airline NW/KL. :D

AC doesnt work because *A flights from PHX arrive too late into the canadian airports. there is also no way to upgrade. too bad because they have a flatbed to FCO IIRC.

SQ is a 3rd *A amex MR partner.

and amex platinum cards can get 60K advanced.

* do you know offhand what the new 2 routes are that UA has new J on? (IAD-FRA was first)

Today, 5:13 pm #35
MarkXS, don't you know that I think I am the center of my universe so my way is the best and that's it? :D:D:D:D:D

Kidding.
:)

Anyway, you are right. I have been touting and considering the AA options over others mentioned because that airline had work for me based on where I live, etc, but I do also understand that the OP would obviously have some different concerns here.

I am sure, however, there are many ways to skin a cat and I was merely trying to point out a few AA mileage facts that many others have proven in FT:

1) they let you hold award tickets when they are not booked for up to 2 weeks. When trying to construct a multi-passenger Eu flight, they seem more easily dealt with than others. Other airlines do not allow this.

2) they often DO have a lot more redemption possibilities in summer/busy months than the others do. Other airlines do not always unless you pay a lot more --sometimes double miles.

3) there are so many ways to get AA miles that I have found to be a bit easier and more lucrative than other airlines, but again, that does depend on one's needs and mile obtaining abilities... (citi credit cards DO allow churning to get 25k miles per card, with multiple cards allowed in a short sign up period. Other cards associated with other major carriers no longer do. You could earn 100k miles just by signing up for 4 citi mastercards in the next few months!)

Actually, I personally DO like to use NWA when we fly to EU because they don't connect in LHR (from where we live and to where we fly) and they often do have seats if you call even if they do not online. You just need to call and ask even if the flights do show up on the internet and you may get lucky! (Alaska Airlines is partners with both AA and NWA btw).

But on a recent trip my friend planned to Africa using miles I gave her, AA wanted 75k miles for the RT flight (connecting thru and allowing a stay over in London IN July) and yet, NWA wanted 90k. UAL wanted 85k, but when we called to actually book it the next day, NWA just jumped to 180k for this same trip and so did UAL. AA was still only 75k. We went with them.

Yes, I know not of AMEX MR points. But if you convert to NWA just to spend 180k miles vs 75 miles, I think they are worth less even if they do convert to other carriers. I am not really a FAN of AA but they have worked for me in such situations.

I base my comments on experience and hopefully it can be useful.
I do not know about AMEX points so I am sorry if I gave mis information on that. (From what I know of capital one points, btw, you get a lot more for your dollar, and yet you need a lot more to fly).

I guess it will depend on where the OP plans to leave from, what time of year and whether or not connections and seat class will matter and to what degree. With children, at least in econ you can all get a row, where as with business class, it's many times 2x2 and a bit harder to manage a family up there.

I suggested staying in a hotel that's not necessarily a SPG hotel too. Maybe that way the OP CAN burn up some SPG points after all. I stayed in a mere Best Western in Rome once (not too long ago in fact) and it was perfect for our family needs and close to everything! The nearest Sheraton was miles out of town and had no real 'feeling' of being in another country. The Best Western we stayed at was right in the city and when you rounded the corner to do some walking around, there were outside cafe's and neat shops right there. The SPG hotel required a bus for everything.

Of course, we did actually learn a little tip that might help the OP:

Get on the American-laiden SPG bus to that Sheraton... Get the free soda or water... get off the bus at the hotel and hang out for the free shuttles into Rome proper. Some are tours and some are just to get you there./ Once there, you did just save on a taxi from the airport and you just enjoyed some airconditioning too! See if that works! We did it in 2003.

Anyway, good luck. Interested in seeing more ideas and surely one solution will work out for the OP and gang!
:)MM

i think you cant have too much information, and any errors will probably be quickly corrected. :)

you can upgrade on UA (and LH and LX) via NH at the amount i stated earlier. i worked out all the lieflat options.

the only one im not sure can be upgraded is NW. or KL. or whatever, i dont have a clue how flying blue (AF/KL) interfaces with the airline NW/KL. :D

AC doesnt work because *A flights from PHX arrive too late into the canadian airports. there is also no way to upgrade. too bad because they have a flatbed to FCO IIRC.

SQ is a 3rd *A amex MR partner.

and amex platinum cards can get 60K advanced.



ANA (NH) via Amex and SPG transfers is is looking better and better based what you're saying. However, using a Star Alliance Upgrade from ANA requires a high-priced Y or B fare, I believe. I think the OP is looking to get a C award, not to buy 4 high-priced Y and hope to upgrade with miles.


MarkXS, don't you know that I think I am the center of my universe so my way is the best and that's it? :D:D:D:D:D

Kidding.
:)

I thought I was. :D:D



I am sure, however, there are many ways to skin a cat and I was merely trying to point out a few AA mileage facts that many others have proven in FT:

1) they let you hold award tickets when they are not booked for up to 2 weeks. When trying to construct a multi-passenger Eu flight, they seem more easily dealt with than others. Other airlines do not allow this.


Excellent point. Delta just stopped allowing long holds. UA only allows a 3 day hold. AA's option does let you grab the outbound you want at 331 days out, and then get the return at 331 days (if 2 week or less trip). If AA redemption availability is as easy as you say, that's a good thing. Yet the OP doesn't have any significant AA and only his SPG is transferable into AA. Looking for 80K C awards via transferring all to ANA, or via DL as suggested in post 23, lets him put all the miles into one pot. Of course, this only makes sense if the saver C awards are available, not if the only option is double miles.



I suggested staying in a hotel that's not necessarily a SPG hotel too. Maybe that way the OP CAN burn up some SPG points after all. I stayed in a mere Best Western in Rome once (not too long ago in fact) and it was perfect for our family needs and close to everything! The nearest Sheraton was miles out of town and had no real 'feeling' of being in another country. The Best Western we stayed at was right in the city and when you rounded the corner to do some walking around, there were outside cafe's and neat shops right there. The SPG hotel required a bus for everything.
.
Wonderful advice. BTW, can you let me know which BW it was (either here or PM me to avoid going OT)? I've got a trip in the fall to Rome and though I'd love to stay at the Westin Excelsior, I'm unlikely to have enough points. I don't get the folks for example on the Hilton board who rave about the Cavilieri - it's a bus ride from way up outside the Vatican. When I'm in Roma I like to experience being in the heart of la bella citta, not lounging around a wonderful hotel that's out in the suburbs.

I hope we've all given the OP some ideas - there have been a wealth of suggestions here. However I also hope we're not getting too "inside baseball" - transferring through multiple programs, churning credit cards, using foreign FF programs like ANA - this is getting into somewhat advanced FF territory. I wouldn't want to see the OP decide "this is all too complicated - I'll never be able to use miles" and give up.

Wonderful advice. BTW, can you let me know which BW it was (either here or PM me to avoid going OT)? I've got a trip in the fall to Rome and though I'd love to stay at the Westin Excelsior, I'm unlikely to have enough points. I don't get the folks for example on the Hilton board who rave about the Cavilieri - it's a bus ride from way up outside the Vatican. When I'm in Roma I like to experience being in the heart of la bella citta, not lounging around a wonderful hotel that's out in the suburbs.

I hope we've all given the OP some ideas - there have been a wealth of suggestions here. However I also hope we're not getting too "inside baseball" - transferring through multiple programs, churning credit cards, using foreign FF programs like ANA - this is getting into somewhat advanced FF territory. I wouldn't want to see the OP decide "this is all too complicated - I'll never be able to use miles" and give up.


agreed on your points, mate!

As for the hotel, We were not there in 2003--sorry I forgot the past :D We were there in Sept, 2004 (Speaking of baseball talk, I had to consult with the Gods to make it so the Boston Red Sox would win the World Series later that fall--and they did! :D:D:D)

Anyway I found an old email I saved from when we went and simply googled it's name to confirm it is what it is, and here it is:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Hotel+Villafranca+rome

Best Western Hotel Villafranca
book.bestwestern.com

Via Villafranca, 9
00185 Roma, Italy
+39 06 4440364

I think some people get overwhelmed with mile choices and do often give up. Let's hope this OP does not do that. It takes a lot of work to put such things together but that's the hobby and addiction we FT junkies have. You and others in this thread have certainly proved your Ft savvy! I love it!

Enjoy your trip to Roma. I would love to go back. Next time, no taxis. Not really needed, in my opinion. Your only loss of money, in fact, is with them. We found everything else to be relatively reasonable--considering the Euro at the time.

This all jogs my memory even further, in fact... We flew NWA from BOS-AMS to start this trip out, and we stayed for 10k SPG points at the Schiphol Sheraton where they let us check in early and even provided the free brekky because it was midweek and we speak some Dutch--and the girl behind the desk was hot and I let her know this fact :D.

The next afternoon, we then flew on to Rome with this same itinerary and returned just under a week later. We enjoyed it but it was muggy and we had to go to a conference for part of the stay. But the hotel had breakfast and AC and was accomodating for us. They were able to add another bed to the room at the last min when someone else had to join us. We left Rome and just connected on the way back thru AMS-BOS and only did the stayover on the way in.

We bought the tickets for these flights, and come to think of it, I honestly think it's like the last time I paid for a plane ticket to fly overseas! They were not too pricey for early/mid Sept flying at the time we purchased them.