JetBlue TrueBlue - Policy towards hidden city ticketing?

As most of us probably know most airlines consider hidden city ticketing illegal. There are some who don't. Notably these are SWA and Airtran. There may be more too but I'm not aware of them.

Jetblue hasn't come forward either way on this to my knowledge. I think it's time to ask Jetblue to make it clear. This is not just regarding mistakes but in general.

For example, I often fly from the bay to either boston or new york. Usually I just go whichever is cheaper but sometimes I have work in New York and can't purchase the ticket to Boston because of incovenience.

I was wondering if in those case I can book San Jose/Oakland/SFO to Boston via New York and get off in New York. Or on the occassion maybe go SJC/OAK/BOS to New York via Boston and get off in Boston?

As Jetblue gets more and more connections the possibilities increase.

Some Possibilities are here and parts that could be skipped are in parentheses

OAK-BOS-(NYC)
OAK-NYC-(BOS)
OAK-IAD-(NYC)
BOS-NYC-(IAD)
IAD-NYC-(BOS)
etc, etc.

Essentially these revolve around NYC, BOS, or IAD as there are frequent connections between them. On the west coast I guess it's possible to fly into LGB instead of flying onto OAK or to stop in OAK and forgo the segment to LGB. I suppose it's possible that something like this exists to FLL as well.

It's hardly an exciting selection but it would be good to know what Jetblue thinks about it.

Personally I think if someone is willing to go through the trouble it should be allowed. Again, SWA allows this. If the airline is willing to sell a ticket at that price, what's wrong with not using all of it.

I know it's a bad analogy but you're not forced to drink an entire can of coke when you buy it. Sure the airlines are attempting to differentiate markets but I would figure an airline like Jetblue would want to separate themselves from the herd. It just makes for more transparent business in my opinion.

So which is it Jetblue?!? Allowed or not?

I'll double check with someone more familiar with ticketing policies, but as far as I know, JetBlue hasn't taken a position on this practice.

Assuming your ultimate goal is to get to JFK from OAK, purchasing an OAK-JFK-BOS ticket will rarely benefit you. In the rare case that it does, no one is going to force you to get on the second leg. Likewise, you won't be entitled to a refund for the unused portion.

Essentially what you're doing is holding a seat on the second leg for a standby customer, if needed. Since B6 does not overbook as standard practice, though, I can see how it may be frowned upon -- like I said, I'll double check for you.

I'll double check with someone more familiar with ticketing policies, but as far as I know, JetBlue hasn't taken a position on this practice.

Assuming your ultimate goal is to get to JFK from OAK, purchasing an OAK-JFK-BOS ticket will rarely benefit you. In the rare case that it does, no one is going to force you to get on the second leg. Likewise, you won't be entitled to a refund for the unused portion.

Essentially what you're doing is holding a seat on the second leg for a standby customer, if needed. Since B6 does not overbook as standard practice, though, I can see how it may be frowned upon -- like I said, I'll double check for you.

Wouldn't the airline be happy about people paying for flights that they don't use? They don't have to give an empty seat snacks and sodas (pop for you midwesterners) as well as less weigth on the aircraft (one less body and associated luggage on board). Also, it forces more people to pay the higher fares for the last few seats.

Personally I think if someone is willing to go through the trouble it should be allowed.

:confused:

Again, SWA allows this. If the airline is willing to sell a ticket at that price, what's wrong with not using all of it.

I assume you're using SW only because they provide something for you in this particular case. SW also doesn't have assigned seats, should B6 also scrap their assigned seating because SW doesn't do assigned seating? :rolleyes:

The reason most airlines don't like hidden city ticketing is because the primary purpose is to get a lower fare. I suspect that is what you're after?

There's one way to find out for sure. Give it a shot and let us know how it goes. Try it in the middle of your trip and see if you're allowed to board on your return trip.

The January 2008 Contract of Carriage says this: "Fares apply only between the points named and via the routing as shown in Carrier's current schedule and are not applicable to or from intermediate points".

Airtran allows hidden-city ticketing and will allow you to check your bag through to the connecting destination instead of the final destination.
Will Jetblue allow that?

Anyway this blurb is from elliot.org
http://www.elliott.org/the-travel-critic/saturday-nights-all-right/
"...At least two others, Southwest and JetBlue, have adopted simplified fare and ticket structures that in some cases would have made flight plans such as Cowen’s hidden-city scheme perfectly acceptable..."

:confused:

The reason I say that if a person goes through the trouble of finding a hidden city that it should be allowed is because 99% of the population would never bother to do this nor would they even think of such an idea.

But for the sake of simplicity and openness I think Jetblue should allow people to get off half way. It's a simple concept but shows goodwill because an airline that keeps it's word by flying an entire itinerary of A-B-C regardless of whether you only fly A-B or B-C is a step above the other in my mind. I think most customers would appreciate that an airline would be willing to fly the exact itinerary purchased and that customers would appreciate the fact that an airline would not cancel their ticket arbitrarily.



I assume you're using SW only because they provide something for you in this particular case. SW also doesn't have assigned seats, should B6 also scrap their assigned seating because SW doesn't do assigned seating? :rolleyes:

This has nothing to do with anything. Airtran allows hidden ticketing as well and they have assigned seating. They even have business class. Even if WN was the only airline that allowed hidden city ticketing, hidden city /= assigned seating. They are completely separate issues. Jetblue should be trying to take the best of all airlines. Its job isn't to replicate the entire WN model.

Oh, and I think the legacies aught to do this as well. Not just Jetblue, I think it should be an allowed practice industry wide. I would suspect that B6 would be more friendly towards this idea though since they seem to be more open about their practices in general.


The reason most airlines don't like hidden city ticketing is because the primary purpose is to get a lower fare. I suspect that is what you're after?


Yes, and I think most people who do this are. However, like I said, if an airline is willing to sell OAK-NYC-BOS cheaper than OAK-NYC there's very little reason that they shouldn't honor only the first part of a ticket. All airlines attempt to segment markets; what they are trying to do is play a game (in order to earn more) and I believe that airlines that are willing to let customers play the game too (in order to pay less) are a step above the rest.

So, for a number of reasons, if you chose to press the issue, which it appears you are trying to do, you would probably be told that this practice is not accepted.

Your ghost leg is both 1) being sold at a discount to get you where the airline thought you wanted to go while remaining competitive and 2) occupying a seat that will not be able to be re-sold as Jetblue does not overbook.

Good luck with trying to beat the system. IMHO, if your going to play outside of the sandbox, there shouldn't be a manual, but rather, you should be left to find your own way, come what may. Best to stick with those airlines that actually encourage the practice.

IMHO, if your going to play outside of the sandbox, there shouldn't be a manual, but rather, you should be left to find your own way, come what may. Best to stick with those airlines that actually encourage the practice.

The question is... is it outside the sandbox? SWA and Airtran say it's inside the sandbox. Legacies says it's outside. I'm just asking what jetblue thinks.

The question is... is it outside the sandbox? SWA and Airtran say it's inside the sandbox. Legacies says it's outside. I'm just asking what jetblue thinks.

1 800 Jetblue.

My guess is that there is no official policy, so it will end up being YMMV.

My guess is that there is no official policy, so it will end up being YMMV.

I'll say it again.

#######

The January 2008 Contract of Carriage says this: "Fares apply only between the points named and via the routing as shown in Carrier's current schedule and are not applicable to or from intermediate points".

#######

1 800 Jetblue.

Do you really think a Jetblue rep will know? I doubt even a supervisor will be able to tell me.

Edit to add:

I think personal experience would speak volumes louder (and so I was asking if anyone has tried this) and if some of the official Jetblue liaisons could find out it would better serve us all.

I'll say it again.

#######

The January 2008 Contract of Carriage says this: "Fares apply only between the points named and via the routing as shown in Carrier's current schedule and are not applicable to or from intermediate points".

#######


Yes, we are aware. However, that's

A) pretty unclear: For example if it's liable to get me "between points named", jetblue.com names New York on a OAK-NYC-BOS itinerary and furthermore it seems to indicate that it is bound to be done "via the routing shown in carrier's current schedule."

So according to Jetblue's own terms it must carry me through New York to Boston.

It then goes to say that "fares are not applicable to or from intermediate points". But that directly contradicts what it says regarding the routing. If it's not applicable to or from intermediate points than why is Jetblue bound to fly me via the routing I booked?

B) Even if we are to take the most pessimistic reading for this rule... that is, if I don't insist on going "via original routing" as Jetblue states. Meaning that we assume OAK-NYC-BOS = OAK-BOS, they don't mention whether it is against their policy to use a ticket from point A to point C, to get to point B.

I understand the possibility that OAK-NYC may get canceled and having to go on OAK-BOS (or get a refund). Anyway, what I want to know is if Jetblue is willing to allow me to travel on my scheduled itinerary unless there is a cancellation.

The legacies state pretty clearly, you will be penalized for booking hidden city tickets.

SWA says hidden cities are OK but we're not responsible for luggage or anything else.

Aitran says hidden cities are OK, and not only that but we will honor any portion of the ticket and we will direct your luggage via any portions you fly.

Jetblue, it's pretty vague. And, j3823x, I appreciate you for interjecting but I think that it's hardly clear because nothing is specifically mentioned about hidden city ticketing and my analysis seems to show that there's contradictory language in the contract of carriage.

Do you really think a Jetblue rep will know? I doubt even a supervisor will be able to tell me.

One way to find out. The point is if you want Jetblue's official stance on the issue, well, go to the source. If you're posting on here to get the "inside" scoop I personally think, absent some confirmation from Jetblue, that you should find your own way on this.

The legacies state pretty clearly, you will be penalized for booking hidden city tickets.

SWA says hidden cities are OK but we're not responsible for luggage or anything else.

Aitran says hidden cities are OK, and not only that but we will honor any portion of the ticket and we will direct your luggage via any portions you fly.

Like i said, absent confimation from Jetblue best to stick with the airlines that actually encourage the practice.

Yes, we are aware. However, that's

A) pretty unclear: For example if it's liable to get me "between points named", jetblue.com names New York on a OAK-NYC-BOS itinerary and furthermore it seems to indicate that it is bound to be done "via the routing shown in carrier's current schedule."

So according to Jetblue's own terms it must carry me through New York to Boston.

This is where you are wrong. If you buy an OAK-JFK-BOS ticket the airline has the right to reroute you from OAK to BOS any way it can. JFK is the intermediate point to which the fare does not apply, because JetBlue is not required to route you through JFK. I don't agree that it's vague, because for one thing the word "between" can only apply to two objects.

It so happens that JetBlue's network does not realistically support re-routing around JFK, and that works to your advantage if you want to get off there. But it still violates the rule. Would they hassle you about it? I doubt it. That would be more bother than it's worth. Would they check your bag to JFK? Don't bet on that, especially if you do not have a very friendly approach.

Wouldn't the airline be happy about people paying for flights that they don't use? They don't have to give an empty seat snacks and sodas (pop for you midwesterners) as well as less weigth on the aircraft (one less body and associated luggage on board). Also, it forces more people to pay the higher fares for the last few seats.

Yes, but in JetBlue's case, consider the following scenario:

OAK-JFK-BOS
The first leg is irrelevant; the customer will travel that regardless.
JFK-BOS -- sold to 150. If the customer has no intention of making that leg, it's good in terms of revenue that money will still be made, BUT that's also a Y fare that could be sold instead. Say that leg was just $40; the customer doesn't take it, a standby customer does. Everyone's happy.

Except, if JetBlue knew ahead of time that the customer had no intention of taking that leg, they know that it's really sold to 149. The potential exists for another Y class fare to be bought for the flight -- which is a bit more revenue than the $40 cost.

Like I said, I can see both positive and negative sides of airlines officially speaking on this policy.

Khabibul35, the best I got was from the Contract of Carriage posted herein. That said, a couple of things to be mindful of if you're going to go through with this-

1) Getting there won't be a problem. You can get off at JFK and no one will question you.

2) The crewmember checking you in doesn't have an option to short check your bags. When you check in, your tags will come out for your final destination and if you want them short checked, you'll have to ask for them to manually tag them. This may prove to be the most difficult task for you, as crewmembers are advised repeatedly to make sure to NOT short check bags. If you explain, though, that your travel plans are preventing you from making the second leg, it shouldn't be a problem. Best advice for you, though, would be to carry on or gate check, if possible.

3) Your return trip will be unaffected, assuming you have booked a direct flight on the return. I know that the reservation software won't touch your return trip if you book OAK-JFK-BOS and JFK-OAK, but if you book the return as BOS-JFK-OAK, you will be declared a No Show in BOS, which will also uncheck you from the second leg. What effect this will have on your being able to check in for the JFK-OAK leg... I don't know. I've never come across this scenario, and the couple of Airports crewmembers I've spoken with haven't either, as far as they know.

Ergo, if you're going to do this, it's going to be very hit or miss and YMMV with what you encounter.

Wouldn't the airline be happy about people paying for flights that they don't use? They don't have to give an empty seat snacks and sodas (pop for you midwesterners) as well as less weigth on the aircraft (one less body and associated luggage on board). Also, it forces more people to pay the higher fares for the last few seats.

Sure, but they'd be more happy to get you to pay more to travel to JFK (your destination) than Boston.

Yes, we are aware. However, that's

A) pretty unclear: For example if it's liable to get me "between points named", jetblue.com names New York on a OAK-NYC-BOS itinerary and furthermore it seems to indicate that it is bound to be done "via the routing shown in carrier's current schedule."

So according to Jetblue's own terms it must carry me through New York to Boston.

It then goes to say that "fares are not applicable to or from intermediate points". But that directly contradicts what it says regarding the routing. If it's not applicable to or from intermediate points than why is Jetblue bound to fly me via the routing I booked?

B) Even if we are to take the most pessimistic reading for this rule... that is, if I don't insist on going "via original routing" as Jetblue states. Meaning that we assume OAK-NYC-BOS = OAK-BOS, they don't mention whether it is against their policy to use a ticket from point A to point C, to get to point B.

I understand the possibility that OAK-NYC may get canceled and having to go on OAK-BOS (or get a refund). Anyway, what I want to know is if Jetblue is willing to allow me to travel on my scheduled itinerary unless there is a cancellation.

The legacies state pretty clearly, you will be penalized for booking hidden city tickets.

SWA says hidden cities are OK but we're not responsible for luggage or anything else.

Aitran says hidden cities are OK, and not only that but we will honor any portion of the ticket and we will direct your luggage via any portions you fly.

Jetblue, it's pretty vague. And, j3823x, I appreciate you for interjecting but I think that it's hardly clear because nothing is specifically mentioned about hidden city ticketing and my analysis seems to show that there's contradictory language in the contract of carriage.

You're reading too much into this.

One step at a time.

"Fares apply only between the points named"
This part means a fare for OAK-BOS is good for going between Oakland and Boston, maybe with a connection someplace, maybe not. It is not meant to be for OAK-JFK.

"and via the routing as shown in Carrier's current schedule"
This part means the routing you paid for.

"and are not applicable to or from intermediate points".
Still talking about the fare/routing combo you chose, this part means you cannot transform aaa-bbb-ccc-bbb-aaa into aaa-bbb-aaa. This is the hidden city clause in plain English.

We all know B6's reservation system leaves a little something to be desired and maybe B6 won't even know. If you ask B6, the answer you get should be in line with the CoC.

However I still say give it a live shot with real travel and let us know how it goes.

3) Your return trip will be unaffected, assuming you have booked a direct flight on the return. I know that the reservation software won't touch your return trip if you book OAK-JFK-BOS and JFK-OAK, but if you book the return as BOS-JFK-OAK, you will be declared a No Show in BOS, which will also uncheck you from the second leg. What effect this will have on your being able to check in for the JFK-OAK leg... I don't know. I've never come across this scenario, and the couple of Airports crewmembers I've spoken with haven't either, as far as they know.

In such a case, it is probably best to book the outbound and return trips on separate reservations. Whatever happens with the outbound trip won't affect the return trip.

As for TrueBlue points, would the jfk-bos leg have to completed to get credit for the oak-jfk trip?

First of all, most of the time, I doubt there is going to be a huge fare diff between OAK-JFK vs. OAK-BOS....we need to look at routes where this is ALWAYS a huge fare difference...take SJC-JFK vs. SJC-LGB....you can snag a $79 ow fare from SJC-LGB and get off in JFK which is far better than buying the SJC-JFK...unless you have bags to check, who cares whether or not JetBlue "allows" it...you just get off at JFK and don't fly the JFK-LGB portion...it's also a ow ticket so it's not like they are going to cancel your return...

First of all, most of the time, I doubt there is going to be a huge fare diff between OAK-JFK vs. OAK-BOS....we need to look at routes where this is ALWAYS a huge fare difference...take SJC-JFK vs. SJC-LGB....you can snag a $79 ow fare from SJC-LGB and get off in JFK which is far better than buying the SJC-JFK...unless you have bags to check, who cares whether or not JetBlue "allows" it...you just get off at JFK and don't fly the JFK-LGB portion...it's also a ow ticket so it's not like they are going to cancel your return...

B6 doesn't sell tickets from SJC-LGB via JFK, so there would never be that big of a fare difference. Also, usually if there's an option to connect somewhere as opposed to flying direct, there's often in increase in price as well, which would often eliminate the savings that hidden city ticketing would provide.

B6 doesn't sell tickets from SJC-LGB via JFK, so there would never be that big of a fare difference. Also, usually if there's an option to connect somewhere as opposed to flying direct, there's often in increase in price as well, which would often eliminate the savings that hidden city ticketing would provide.


You can almost always buy a one-way $79 fare ($84 if you include the $5 booking fee) on orbitz.com...the routing provided allows you to connect at JFK which is definately cheaper than the SJC-JFK one-way fare....so, yeah, maybe B6 doesn't sell the ticket but orbitz does :)

You can almost always buy a one-way $79 fare ($84 if you include the $5 booking fee) on orbitz.com...the routing provided allows you to connect at JFK which is definately cheaper than the SJC-JFK one-way fare....so, yeah, maybe B6 doesn't sell the ticket but orbitz does :)

WOW. I just checked this out for myself on Orbitz, and it's evidently true (I found $69 pre-tax...through Boston). What are they thinking? How does this fare even end up in the booking system? No, really, what are they thinking? Not only does it not make any practical sense whatsoever, but the airline would literally lose hundreds of dollars for each one-way ticket sold this way. This is a rare instance in which they'd probably be better off leaving the seat(s) empty (I imagine that the marginal cost of transporting one additional passenger 5,500 miles or so, including ticketing, fuel, baggage handling, snacks, etc, has to be more than the $60-some-odd that JetBlue gets for these fares, pre tax).

Incidentally, searching other city pairs turns up interesting routings on JetBlue and other airlines (example: NYC to BOS by way of several Florida cities), but at least in those cases the fares seem to reflect the absurdity of such a routing. Why does Orbitz sell these crazy itineraries when JetBlue directly does not?

Are TrueBlue credits issued by segment or by origin/destination pair? This seems like something close to a B6 mileage run for a pair of trancons at $84. Of course, no double points for the jetblue.com booking, but still way more points than some of the other routes you can buy for similar prices.

All this hoopla about SJC to LGB via JFK/BOS isn't really worth discussing... it shows up on Orbitz but it's unbookable. It comes back at $500 like the way it should be in the first place once you press buy.

Are TrueBlue credits issued by segment or by origin/destination pair? This seems like something close to a B6 mileage run for a pair of trancons at $84. Of course, no double points for the jetblue.com booking, but still way more points than some of the other routes you can buy for similar prices.
They issue them by origin/destination pair, but if Orbitz books it as two seperate legs/tickets, then it might count as by segment....

I actually was able to get all the way to the final purchase page without it repricing.... ~$94 to leave SJC at 10 PM, and arrive in LGB at 11:30 AM the next day with a stop in BOS. If this tickets as two seperate legs (it seems it would, because you can only find it when you search for a one way - presumably because it takes up 2 legs, and B6 tickets don't allow for more than that one one itin, AFAIK), then this might be the first ever B6 mileage run!

Now, who wants to be the first to pull the trigger and test this out? LOL

Don't waste your time. The reason why Orbitz shows LGB to SJC via BOS is because fares have been filed on routing 900 and it is a valid connection in ATPCO, however this is not the case in the Open Skies system. Any OTA/GDS booking has to be valid in Open Skies also otherwise you will receive a booking error or it will price point to point. If JetBlue cleaned up their fares & route map in ATPCO you wouldn't see this invalid option in Orbitz.

Who cares what the "official policy" is, or what the ethics are? The only question is, will JetBlue's computer system cancel out the rest of your itinerary (and possibly blacklist you for the future) if you get off at an intermediate stop. The legacy airlines do. JetBlue either does or doesn't. This experiment really just takes one try, I think...

By the way, I'd like to point out this is no longer a hypothetical but is actually happening.

davidmay has pointed out here (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9698619&postcount=35) at least one instance where there's a hidden city at a cheaper price.

Anyone from Jetblue want to weigh in on this?

Wouldn't the airline be happy about people paying for flights that they don't use?

Sure, but they'd be more happy to get you to pay more to travel to JFK (your destination) than Boston.

To use an actual example, right now:
ORD-JFK-PWM = $114+ o/w
ORD-JFK = $149+ o/w

In this case, the airline would NOT be happy to have me pay $114+ to fly ORD-JFK (and skip the PWM part) -- because I should be paying $149+.

Meaning that we assume OAK-NYC-BOS = OAK-BOS, they don't mention whether it is against their policy to use a ticket from point A to point C, to get to point B.

No. "Fares... are not applicable to or from intermediate points" sounds pretty clear to me. The $114 fare from ORD-PWM (via JFK) is "not applicable to or from intermediate point" JFK. The applicable fare is... $149.

No. "Fares... are not applicable to or from intermediate points" sounds pretty clear to me. The $114 fare from ORD-PWM (via JFK) is "not applicable to or from intermediate point" JFK. The applicable fare is... $149.

I don't want to beat a dead horse but...the site also says:

Jet blue is liable to get me "between points named", jetblue.com and names New York on a OAK-NYC-BOS itinerary and furthermore it seems to indicate that it is bound to be done "via the routing shown in carrier's current schedule."

Seems like this is contrary to the statement you posted.

Seems like this is contrary to the statement you posted.

I concur with j3823x; I don't see any contradictions. The fare is not valid TO the connection point, it is valid VIA the connection point. That means the fare is invalid when going to the connect point, or, as JetBlue says, "Fares... are not applicable to or from intermediate points."

I read "via the routing as shown in Carrier's current schedule" as specifying that fares are only valid via legal routings (i.e., those shown in the schedule). Fares are not valid over illegal routings (like LGB-OAK via JFK); those routings are not shown in the schedule.

The routing clause doesn't hide any additional meanings, and even if it did, the "not applicable to or from intermediate points" clause makes it quite clear. Indeed, a very similar sentence is found in Delta, Northwest, and United airlines' Contracts of Carriage, all of which specifically prohibit hidden-city ticketing:

Each fare applies only to transportation via the routings specified in connection with such fare.

Granted, B6 doesn't have an entire paragraph saying "this practice, known as hidden city ticketing, is specifically prohibited" but its CoC is also about 80% shorter than the others I've just looked at; it probably leaves a lot of things out. (These things are probably accretive: the older your company, the longer your contracts.)

Furthermore, section 6D of the COC specifically prohibits stopovers ("an intentional interruption by the Passenger of his or her journey, scheduled to exceed four hours") -- allowing hidden cities but prohibiting stopovers? That would be a contradiction.

As has been suggested, if you really want to find out what the contract says, you're welcome to try a roundtrip booking A-B-C, leave at B, and try to get back onto the B-A return after ditching B-C and C-B. Or, since you're near JFK, you can try booking A-JFK-C and try boarding at JFK. Here's a city pair to try:
BTV-JFK-RDU = $79+
JFK-RDU = $114+

you're welcome to try a roundtrip booking A-B-C, leave at B, and try to get back onto the B-A return after ditching B-C and C-B. Or, since you're near JFK, you can try booking A-JFK-C and try boarding at JFK. Here's a city pair to try:
BTV-JFK-RDU = $79+
JFK-RDU = $114+

since JetBlue doesn't really give a discount for roundtrips (unless you're using a promotion) I presume if you were really doing this you'd buy two separate one-way tickets A-B-C and B-A.

If anybody ever does try buying C-B-A and getting on at B, I'd be interested to hear about it...

"My meeting in Burlington was canceled, so I drove to JFK instead..."