Korean Air Skypass - KE Confirms GRU Starting 03 June 2008

After first reports last year, KE has now confirmed it will operate LAX-GRU B772 (260 seats in 3 classes). Flighst will start on 03 June 2008 and operate 3 x week. The flight will start as LAX-GRU and in the second semester of 2008 will add the lag LAX-ICN.

KE will now offer connections from Brazil to Asia via its hub in ICN. This is another new airline in GRU which last year had the addition of EK to DXB nonstop and AC to PEK via MAD.

Rgs,

What a retarded decision!!
Instead of leveraging AM's TIJ minihub which convenient for Californian flyers without hassling those in transit from the South, they expect transit pax to be subjected to the US "security" madness? :td:

I agree with graraps on this. If I didn't have a US or US Visa-waiver passport I would not transit the US. There's no reason we can't have a reasonable way to let people transit through the country without all the BS, especially at the big international airports liks LAX and JFK. Depending on what kind of traffic KE wants on this route, it might have been smarter to use TIJ or MEX as a transit point. If they think most traffic will just be GRU-LAX then its fine, but I wouldn't want to do GRU-ICN or beyond via LAX on a South American passport. (or at this time on a Korean passport since they are not in the visa waiver program yet)

I agree with graraps on this. If I didn't have a US or US Visa-waiver passport I would not transit the US. There's no reason we can't have a reasonable way to let people transit through the country without all the BS, especially at the big international airports liks LAX and JFK. Depending on what kind of traffic KE wants on this route, it might have been smarter to use TIJ or MEX as a transit point. If they think most traffic will just be GRU-LAX then its fine, but I wouldn't want to do GRU-ICN or beyond via LAX on a South American passport. (or at this time on a Korean passport since they are not in the visa waiver program yet)

KE main focus will be LAX-GRU traffic. Currently there is no nonstop service between US West Coast and Brazil - only LAN operates GRU-LAX via LIM. The scenario is different from US East Coast to Brazil, with several flights (NYC alone has 5 daily flights and MIA 9 daily!). TAM is currently planning to operate GRU-LAX but KE apparently precluded TAM's move.

JAL operates GRU-JFK-NRT successfully and also incurs in the same VISA transit problems in the US. JAL loads for this flight operated with B747 have been 70%-80%.

One possible option would be to operate via Europe since Brazilians dont need visa for Europe, UK and Switzerland. However, Brazil-Europe market is very competitive.

I think KE made the right decision and KE has full fifth freedom rights in LAX which will make the flight work.

Rgs,

KE also wants to allow its GRU-LAX to allow for smooth connection for its LAX-NRT B747 nonstop. In other words, KE would not only capture the LAX-GRU O&D market but also use LAX for connetions to both ICN and NRT. From ICN, KE would provide connetions to other destinations. It seems that the route combining LAX, Korea and Japan has the ingredients to provide good results.

Rgs,

KE also wants to allow its GRU-LAX to allow for smooth connection for its LAX-NRT B747 nonstop. In other words, KE would not only capture the LAX-GRU O&D market but also use LAX for connetions to both ICN and NRT. From ICN, KE would provide connetions to other destinations. It seems that the route combining LAX, Korea and Japan has the ingredients to provide good results.

Rgs,

But who would connect at LAX when they can fly via MEX/TIJ??

But who would connect at LAX when they can fly via MEX/TIJ??

Most of high yielding pax flying from Brazil to Japan already have VISA for US. This explains why JAL flight NRT-JFK-GRU works so well - the same would happen with KE.

MEX/TIJ would not work! Brazilians need visa for Mexico (also for connection). In addition, AM is not competitive for Brazil-Japan market as flight has two connections: MEX and then again in TIJ making it very long. Although AM operates GRU-MEX daily MEX-TIJ-NRT is only 2/3 weekly. Currently most of the Japan-Brazil market is captured by European carriers, JAL and US carriers (especially DL). Nobody flies via Mexico!

KE was right by routing the flight via LAX. Currently US carriers are using all their frequencies as allowed in the US-Brazil bilateral and fares are high. KE will capture an important market by operating LAX-GRU plus allow for NRT and ICN transfer in LAX.

Rgs,

What a retarded decision!!
Instead of leveraging AM's TIJ minihub which convenient for Californian flyers without hassling those in transit from the South, they expect transit pax to be subjected to the US "security" madness? :td:


Not insulting you, but you should realize how retarded your opinion is before commenting the decision is retarded. Their decision is not retarded at all.

TIJ? Are you joking here? Been to Tijuana, but never been to the airport. But I'm sure that TIJ's terminal and its transit facilities are appalling. Ever been at US San Ysidro checkpoint? I cannot imagine someone who been there mentioning TIJ would be convenient for Californian flyers.

This topic is already well-discussed in a.net. ICN-GRU traffic is not enough to make this flight work. Therefore KE needs some local traffic from TIJ too. How much traffic do you expect between TIJ and GRU? How about traffic between TIJ and ICN? LAX makes sense here because there is no non-stop between GRU, the largest city in South America, and LAX, the largest city in West Coast at this point. Also, KE might be able to get traffic from NRT-LAX, though I'm not sure if the regulations allow this.


I agree with graraps on this. If I didn't have a US or US Visa-waiver passport I would not transit the US. There's no reason we can't have a reasonable way to let people transit through the country without all the BS, especially at the big international airports liks LAX and JFK. Depending on what kind of traffic KE wants on this route, it might have been smarter to use TIJ or MEX as a transit point. If they think most traffic will just be GRU-LAX then its fine, but I wouldn't want to do GRU-ICN or beyond via LAX on a South American passport. (or at this time on a Korean passport since they are not in the visa waiver program yet)


As mentioned earlier, using TIJ or MEX as a transit point would be totally stupid. Can you think of any aircraft that is capable of doing non-stop from MEX to ICN with full payload? Be aware that MEX is located at almost 7500ft.

This flight is mostly intended to serve Korean business travellers and ROK government staffs. Most business travellers, if not all, should have US visa. As for government staffs, they are likely to have one too.

Also, KE seems to be commencing this flight in expectation of new VWP. The new VWP would let South Korean and Brazilian to enter the US without visa.



But who would connect at LAX when they can fly via MEX/TIJ??


Many. MEX - technically impossible unless they use all-business or first only configured aircraft. But then, they still cannot carry cargo, which is really full-fare business passengers. TIJ - simply no traffic. Never comment "retard" on airline's decision. They have a lot of analyst, each of whom likely to be smarter than you, carefully reviewing everything. They definitely know what they are doing a lot better than you do.



To hardiwv, you keep referring Air China as AC on a.net and here. Air China is CA, not AC. Also, KE does fly to Africa already. Did you think CAI was not in Africa?

Opps, double post.

This topic is already well-discussed in a.net. ICN-GRU traffic is not enough to make this flight work. Therefore KE needs some local traffic from TIJ too. How much traffic do you expect between TIJ and GRU? How about traffic between TIJ and ICN?
As mentioned earlier, using TIJ or MEX as a transit point would be totally stupid. Can you think of any aircraft that is capable of doing non-stop from MEX to ICN with full payload? Be aware that MEX is located at almost 7500ft.

The suggestion for TIJ isn't because it's a nice border town or close to California or whatever. It's because 1) MEX is too high up and 2) TIJ just happens to be, wait for it, a Skyteam hub, with flights to all over Mexico as well as PVG and NRT. It also happens to be close to California AND a lot easier to transit than LAX.


This flight is mostly intended to serve Korean business travellers and ROK government staffs. Most business travellers, if not all, should have US visa.

Doubtful. I'd say it's easier for gov't people to obtain them.


Also, KE seems to be commencing this flight in expectation of new VWP. The new VWP would let South Korean and Brazilian to enter the US without visa.

"Expectation" is very far from reality, especially with things related to the USA. If, however, it does materialise, then the decision will be justified.


They have a lot of analyst, each of whom likely to be smarter than you, carefully reviewing everything. They definitely know what they are doing a lot better than you do.

Pointless comment. Not a few routes are pulled from the first year of operation...Airline analysts, not unlike stockmarket experts, have too many variables to work with for their predictions to be reliable.

Slightly off topic. For transit passengers arriving the US, do they have to reclaim their bags and check it back in again even if it's on the same carrier? If they do, good luck to KE. It's already a pain to have to go through customs just to transit.

Slightly off topic. For transit passengers arriving the US, do they have to reclaim their bags and check it back in again even if it's on the same carrier? If they do, good luck to KE. It's already a pain to have to go through customs just to transit.

No need for baggage reclaim in case of connection/transit.

Rgs,

This is not new for KE,,,Through the 1990's they always had an LAX GRU flight, and I believe they pulled out as they were recovering from the 1997 currency crisis that hit Asia....With their relatively new product in business, this is very smart as no body else has a superior product from the west coast to Brazil and carriers with superior products in hot markets tend to have no problems selling it

The suggestion for TIJ isn't because it's a nice border town or close to California or whatever. It's because 1) MEX is too high up and 2) TIJ just happens to be, wait for it, a Skyteam hub, with flights to all over Mexico as well as PVG and NRT. It also happens to be close to California AND a lot easier to transit than LAX.


Who consider TIJ to be a ST hub, another joke? This flight does not target traffic to Mexico, not does AM's PVG and NRT traffic. Proximity to CA, how does it matter when it takes hours to clear immigration at San Ysidro? I hardly doubt it will be easier to transit to TIJ than at LAX. How about costs? Via TIJ means opening new office in Tijuana and hiring staffs there. ICN-TIJ-GRU is truly a retard thing that KE can ever do.



Doubtful. I'd say it's easier for gov't people to obtain them.


I'm telling you that most business travellers who travel to South American have US visa. Go figure if you still doubt. Easiness? It's easy for either to obtain.



"Expectation" is very far from reality, especially with things related to the USA. If, however, it does materialise, then the decision will be justified.


It's not very far from reality. It's happening. Even though it may not happen, still not a big deal as most pax would have US visa anyway.



Pointless comment. Not a few routes are pulled from the first year of operation...Airline analysts, not unlike stockmarket experts, have too many variables to work with for their predictions to be reliable.


Not pointless comment? How many routes has KE screwed up so far? I take DEN and BOS to be the ones didn't work out, but I don't see any other. I'm talking about major airline here, not small regional airline. Anyhow, they are a lot smater than you without a doubt.

You are totally correct. Opening TIJ in my view would be a complete nonsense. And what about TIJ-GRU? I hardly see any market for this flight; MEX-GRU already is operated by AM, RG and OceAir, so plenty of competition here and very different from LAX-GRU. Most business travellers already have the US visa at this point since it is valid for a long time (5 to 10 years).

As mentioned above, KE already operated ICN-LAX-GRU about 7 years ago. KE would also manage to extract some good yields flying LAX-GRU with its new product, no doubt about it.

ps: tks for the correction about Air China!

Who consider TIJ to be a ST hub, another joke? This flight does not target traffic to Mexico, not does AM's PVG and NRT traffic.

That's the whole point of the argument I'm making. That it SHOULD target these connections. There are AM flights from TIJ to virtually every Mexican destination with any amount of traffic.

Proximity to CA, how does it matter when it takes hours to clear immigration at San Ysidro? I hardly doubt it will be easier to transit to TIJ than at LAX.

AM doesn't have any issues with their shuttle from San Diego to TIJ. Pax are transferred smoothly AFAIK.


How about costs? Via TIJ means opening new office in Tijuana and hiring staffs there.

Or just making more efficient use of the resources of their alliance partner who already has a hub there. ;)



I'm telling you that most business travellers who travel to South American have US visa. Go figure if you still doubt. Easiness? It's easy for either to obtain.

See the travel safety and security forum for more on this.


Even though it may not happen, still not a big deal as most pax would have US visa anyway.

Spurious claim. This is a data point that nobody will be able to assess, especially for a flight that hasn't started yet. As I said, the value proposition would be totally different if there was visa waiver at both ends.


Not pointless comment? How many routes has KE screwed up so far? I take DEN and BOS to be the ones didn't work out, but I don't see any other. I'm talking about major airline here, not small regional airline. Anyhow, they are a lot smater than you without a doubt.

Do spare us the personal attack. I am not saying that KE have a poor analyst team, just that it is virtually impossible to predict how a route will fare because there are too many variables.
In this instance, how would an analyst be able to know what % of the transfer pax have a visa and what % of these would prefer transiting at LAX as opposed to TIJ or even Europe?
Nigh on impossible, I say. If the point-to-point traffic is enough and/or they get good coordination with whatever DL service there is into LAX, they may make it work....otherwise...success is rather unlikely IMHO.

That's the whole point of the argument I'm making. That it SHOULD target these connections. There are AM flights from TIJ to virtually every Mexican destination with any amount of traffic.


Did Mexico government grant 5th freedom to KE? Ask yourself this question first before making other ridiculous BS arguments. Why would KE look at Mexico-GRU traffic when their ST partner AM already does this. AM would be very upset if KE takes this kind of action. Also did you realize that TIJ is located at northwest corner of Mexico while GRU is stretching down to southeast of Mexico? It would be fuel wasting if KE were to traffic pax from GRU via TIJ to other Mexican cities via AM. Accordingly, fares would be higher than what other carriers offer in the same market. Hence not competitive at all. How would KE match low fares and waste extra fuel at the same time?



AM doesn't have any issues with their shuttle from San Diego to TIJ. Pax are transferred smoothly AFAIK.


Except that they have to wait at least a couple of hours or more at the border. :p



Or just making more efficient use of the resources of their alliance partner who already has a hub there. ;)


Korean people pay extra to get better service. AM employees at TIJ? I guess not only their customer service is far worse than that of KE, but also they don't speak Korean most of all. There are tons of Koreans who fly KE just because of the ability to communicate in Korean.



See the travel safety and security forum for more on this.


Ask US embassy in Seoul about that. ;)



Spurious claim. This is a data point that nobody will be able to assess, especially for a flight that hasn't started yet. As I said, the value proposition would be totally different if there was visa waiver at both ends.


Not really. Like I said, this flight is meant for business travellers, and most of them, if not all, have US visa already. This flight doesn't target those people who just go abroad occasionally for sightseeing. How many Koreans would go to South America for just pleasure?



Do spare us the personal attack. I am not saying that KE have a poor analyst team, just that it is virtually impossible to predict how a route will fare because there are too many variables.
In this instance, how would an analyst be able to know what % of the transfer pax have a visa and what % of these would prefer transiting at LAX as opposed to TIJ or even Europe?
Nigh on impossible, I say. If the point-to-point traffic is enough and/or they get good coordination with whatever DL service there is into LAX, they may make it work....otherwise...success is rather unlikely IMHO.


Not many variables, they have already done it before and they cancelled it only because of Asian financial crisis in 1997, which put South Korea in trouble. Analysts do know that most pax, that is Koreans, traveling to South America are in possession of US visa. TIJ? Analysts know that TIJ won't work out because of no local traffic, therefore there was no reason to seek 5th freedom from Mexico. If transit easiness was priority, KE would have chosen YVR or YYZ over TIJ. Or they would have even considered starting YUL, which is likely to attract more pax than TIJ does. Europe? Too much competitions there already. This flight will be dependent on both local traffic and xPacific traffic. Of course, DL feed service is not anticipated here. Nevertheless, they foresee this flight work. In your HUMBLE opinion, success is rather unlikely, but ask anyone who have insight in aviation. LAX is lightyear better choice than TIJ.

Most of high yielding pax flying from Brazil to Japan already have VISA for US. This explains why JAL flight NRT-JFK-GRU works so well - the same would happen with KE.

Rgs,

Japan in a visa waiver country, so no need for visa concerns here.

Korean citizens on the other hand still requires visas. This is supposed to change in the near future but requirements still have not been met to add them to the visa waiver program.

Indeed, but perhaps KE already consider the possible future visa waiver in its planning. In addition, it is clear that KE wants to tap into the LAX-GRU market. Note that currently all US carriers are operating in their limit according to the US-Brazil bilateral which means they cannot increase flight frequencies to Brazil.

I have built a tentative schedule for a continuation flight based on KE015/KE016 schedules with maximum utilization factor of the aircraft:

KE015 ICN-LAX 19:55 15:00 LAX-GRU 17:00 10:00
KE016 GRU-LAX 13:30 23:30 LAX-ICN 01:30 06:20

Of course, it would entail a daylight sector operated flight.

By contrast, JAL B747 seats in GRU for 15 hours to allow for red-eye operations.

Rgs,

Japan in a visa waiver country, so no need for visa concerns here.

Korean citizens on the other hand still requires visas. This is supposed to change in the near future but requirements still have not been met to add them to the visa waiver program.

South Korea and Brazil are both included in the "12 roadmap" countries of the revised Visa Waiver Program (WVP).

The 12 countries included in the "roadmap" group which could be included in the visa waiver program if the threshold is raised to 10%, are:

Argentina,
Brazil,
Cyprus,
Czech Republic,
Estonia,
Greece,
Israel,
Malta,
Slovakia,
South Korea,
Taiwan and
Uruguay

Rgs,