MilesBuzz! - Why don't airlines allow mileage accumulation on award tickets?

Sure, why reward someone twice -- they're already getting a free ticket, right?

But most everyone offers a free ticket to the same destinations for the same price. It could be a nice way to one-up the competition, and miles aren't particularly expensive for an airline (see the USAirways giveaway from the Fall, or Continental in the Spring on 2001).

Okay, fine, airlines are cutting back and not rewarding more. Or they see the future in low-cost carriers rather than in business travelers -- so their new market is less-dependent upon loyalty programs. I think they're off base, but that's just my uninformed opinion. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

But what if they did something a bit more targeted?

What if they said -- no mileage accumulation on award tickets, except for tickets used by new members.

That is, if I give a free ticket to a friend (with all my miles, I give lots of award tickets away), and that friend isn't already a member of the airline's frequent flyer program, the promotion would be -- sign up for the program and earn miles on the award ticket.

Airlines give out miles as frequent flyer signup promotions all the time. Delta gave away as many as 10,000 miles for signup late last year (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/007479.html). That promotion didn't even require a flight on Delta.

In the forulation I'm offering, there would be a real opportunity to acquire a new customer -- get them in the frequent flyer program, put them on a flight, give them some miles. And it would be a real opportunity to let an existing customer (who is gifting an award) be an evangelist for the airline. And they'd see that rewards are real, because they're flying on one!

What better way to make a new customer? And it would be cheap!

So, again I ask: why haven't any airlines done this?

(I also posted this on my blog (http://www.webflyer.com/blog/posts.php?entry=683).)

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View from the Wing (http://www.webflyer.com/blog): A blog about Free Miles and Free Markets

Airlines do not give mileage on deeply discounted and free tickets---mileage tickets fall into this category.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Tango:
Airlines do not give mileage on deeply discounted and free tickets---mileage tickets fall into this category. </font>

On 'deeply discounted' tickets -- this varies by airline and by specific fare.

On free tickets -- sure. But my point is, in some cases, could they actually benefit by changing their practice?

An idea I thought might be worth chewing on -- and maybe an airline exec will score some points with their boss by seeing this post, making the change, and winning some business! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Posted by gleff:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">On free tickets -- sure. But my point is, in some cases, could they actually benefit by changing their practice?

An idea I thought might be worth chewing on -- and maybe an airline exec will score some points with their boss by seeing this post, making the change, and winning some business! </font>
gleff:
I don't think that is such a smart marketing idea. Unless the airlines say: ".. It does not matter, if we are 5 feet or 10 feet under water.."
They are already in deep trouble with millions and millions of miles waiting to be redeemed.
It's like the Fed is starting to print new dollar notes ...
Actually, I got miles on a partner award ticket from Delta; Europe trip with AF. It was a computer glitch, I presume.. No points from the boss.

I appreciate the feedback. Maybe I am nuts. But what I'm really asking about is <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">What if they said -- no mileage accumulation on award tickets, except for tickets used by new members.

That is, if I give a free ticket to a friend (with all my miles, I give lots of award tickets away), and that friend isn't already a member of the airline's frequent flyer program, the promotion would be -- sign up for the program and earn miles on the award ticket.</font>So a very targeted idea, geared towards getting new customers.

Isn't that different than just printing more miles willy-nilly?

[This message has been edited by gleff (edited 02-22-2003).]

The vast majority of people who claim mileage tickets do not give them away to friends.

There are two different types of passengers---those that fly on price/schedule and those that fly for the miles. The person who fly's for the price/schedule is not going to be swayed to continue to fly on American by a gift of miles on an award ticket. They will fly on AA again only when the price or schedule fits their needs. There might be a bit of a grey area where a passenger might fly AA for an extra $20 becuase of the miles but this represents a very small portion of AA's flyers.

The mileage flyer is going to seek out AA (and its partners) becuase of the miles they earn. They will continue to fly on AA even if you don't give them miles on a free ticket.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Tango:

There are two different types of passengers---those that fly on price/schedule and those that fly for the miles. The person who fly's for the price/schedule is not going to be swayed to continue to fly on American by a gift of miles on an award ticket. They will fly on AA again only when the price or schedule fits their needs. There might be a bit of a grey area where a passenger might fly AA for an extra $20 becuase of the miles but this represents a very small portion of AA's flyers.</font>
If the person to whom AA gifted the miles never flew AA again, what harm would come to the airline for gifting them in the first place? 10,000 miles by themselves are pretty useless. The airline only has to pay for those miles if the person continues to fly AA and accrues more mileage.

In it's targeted form, the airline could win over a few people. It wouldn't be many, I grant you, but given the low cost, wouldn't it be worth a try, given the above?

-Nathan

To me, another twist would be to allow the earning of miles for reward tickets on partner airlines. US could say, "use your US miles to fly on United and earn US miles on that flight." NW/CO seem like a good fit for this too.

A slight twist to this question. If you redeem an airline award for an AA ticket via the Hilton HHonors program, you do receive miles on your award ticket. This only works on AA though.

Mileage accumulation is a form of incentive to fly a particular airline. It's a perk for giving money to the airline.

On reward tickets however, the airline does not receive any money. There is no reason for an airline to offer incentive to frequent fliers to redeem an award ticket. Airlines would rather not have passengers redeeming award tickets.

Most mileage promotions usually have some incentive for the airline.

The 10K bonus upon signing up got those who signed up a lump sum of miles, generally unusable unless 15K miles were added (through flying or credit cards, etc) - this excludes HHonors transfers and intra-Hawaii awards, awards which are generally not well known. The 10K bonus gave Delta a chance at more business (either through ticket purchases or Amex buying Skymiles).

As for allowing mileage accumulation for new members - there is no incentive for an airline to do this. Sure, there would be new members, but the mileage earned would either be a rather useless lump sum (say 5000 for an intra North America award) or rather significant and usable (a New York to Australlia award would earn about 20K miles) - basically giving away another free ticket. Ultimately, airlines receives no revenue and actually incur costs for that award ticket. Further, airlines do not want to encourage award redemptions by offering miles.

TWA used to give miles so long as you paid something for the award tickets. So if you took their 75% off award or similar, you still got the miles. They also gave COS bonuses for upgraded travel, using awards or otherwise.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">TWA used to give miles so long as you paid something for the award tickets. So if you took their 75% off award or similar, you still got the miles. They also gave COS bonuses for upgraded travel, using awards or otherwise. </font>

With the 75% off awards you were still booked in a paid fare class, so during the trip mileage year you could easily get back the miles that you spent and during the year always fly at 75% off.

TWA used to also give miles on totally free tickets. I never did it, but when they ran bonuses to India or South America (on Eastern) people were known to fly first class on an a free award and again earn back all the miles that they used for the award.

And lets not forget the segment bonuses (fly 5 segements get one free ticket) that most carriers used to offer ...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by gleff:

On free tickets -- sure. But my point is, in some cases, could they actually benefit by changing their practice?

</font>

That would be a tough one. On top of the flight miles if they offered the status rewards and any other double miles offers it's conceivable they will be giving out more miles then you cashed in to get the tickets, which is probably not something they have any interest in doing.

Is this poster asking too much?

In the year 2013,
1. you will get only 25% mileage credit when you buy a ticket other than full fare,
2. you will pay for meals (least bad change),
3. need 25,000 miles for a free domestic award (of which 2 seats will be offered nationwide),
4. 50,000 miles for a domestic award (booked 3 months in advance, no changes permitted), 5. 100,000 miles for a domestic award similar to the present 25,000 mi.,
6. and the change fee will be $200 plus a punch in the stomach

The inherent flaw with your suggestion is that it would require witty thinking and a nimble reaction at the majors to act upon such a thought provoking suggestion.

This is near impossible in an bureacracy that impedes such decision making.

Because if the airlines offered miles on award tickets, some Flyertalker would discover a routing that yielded 28,000 miles on a 25,000 mile award. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

I have often thought that the double mileage awards should earn FF credit!

On the other hand, Hilton HHonors gives stay credit on award stays, and points on incidentals during an award stay (none for the stay itself since the points are based on $ you pay).

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by swag:
Because if the airlines offered miles on award tickets, some Flyertalker would discover a routing that yielded 28,000 miles on a 25,000 mile award. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif</font>

That is the most telling post here as to why the airlines won't do this!!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Because it accomplishes exactly as much as taking $1 out of your left pocket and putting into your right pocket, or cutting a strip off the bottom of your blanket to sew it on the top if your shoulders are cold.

Most major airlines get about 25,000 miles for US trans-con round trip, somewhat more if it's late and award seats have sold out on the flight you want. That trip would earn about 5,000 miles. What's the difference between "earning miles on award tickets," as proposed here, and just giving the award for fewer miles? This could even be done in the form of a certificate promotion - "This Certificate Good for 5,000 Miles toward the Ticket Award of your Choice" - which could be targeted as precisely as any marketeer could wish.

The only real difference is that award miles can be a gift, whereas earned miles accrue to the flyer. That's not a big enough difference to upset the basic premise that earning miles on an award ticket is just an unnecessarily complicated way to give discount awards. It may even argue in favor of the discount award approach (if airlines want to do this at all, which I doubt): that way, at least the person who did the flying gets the benefit.

I don't know if this is an across-the-board frequent flyer credit card policy, but there's a FF credit card that will give you miles when you redeem your miles for an award seat. What a deal!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by seat 50J:
6. and the change fee will be $200 plus a punch in the stomach</font>

LOL!!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by rmlala:
I don't know if this is an across-the-board frequent flyer credit card policy, but there's a FF credit card that will give you miles when you redeem your miles for an award seat. What a deal!</font>

Those are cards that accumulate "points" in their own program, which you can redeem by having them buy you a ticket when you have enough points. Limits on the price of an "award" ticket, plus volume discount deals with the airlines, ensure that they'll come out ahead on the deal. However, since the ticket is a paid ticket from the airline's point of view, the traveler earns miles (but in the airline's program, not the credit card program).

Most people here put these programs down because their points can't be redeemed for the high-leverage airline awards such as international upgrades or last-minute flights with no Saturday night stay. Another concern is that the only way you can earn miles is by using the credit card, not by flying/staying in hotels/etc., so most people would take a long time to earn an award. However, if you charge a lot, want mostly advance purchase economy ticket awards and like to be flexible in your choice of airlines, cards like this can work well.

I have received miles twice on award tickets.

Try giving your frequent flyer number away from the big hubs. The employees are less aware of things and it can't hurt.

TWA used to permitt it , Look where the are now !

Twa used to permitt it , look where they are now!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Sydneyjb:
Twa used to permitt it , look where they are now!</font>

Do you really think that this is what drove TWA into bankruptcy, as opposed to...
a) being based in STL with declining yields?
b) booking away due to terrorism risk
c) terrible labor contracts (below-market wages but the worst work rules in the industry)
d) almost anything else you can think of besides the generosity of their FF program?

Correct me if I'm wrong but if you book your award ticket on AA.com, I believe you get 1000AA mi for doing so (until June?). This would be one way to get miles for taking a "free flight".

OK, enough reasons have been recorded here
that the airlines should not, cannot, or just will not ever again award miles for award flights. I too collected miles, on the old PSA program, in 1988 on an award package
that cost me 10,000 points plus $800 for two
R/T tix plus hotels & transfers, to Tahiti. Quite a deal especially since (I think )I gained more miles than I spent!
However the 80's are over, and this sort of thing will probably never happen again.
Here's an idea that I think could fly: How about no miles/points on award flights, but award flight miles credited toward elite status. After all, these are actual flight miles, one is using the services of the airline, and relieving them of some of their "debt" in miles owed. I've missed out on elite status at least once by electing to burn miles instead of buying my ticket. And I did feel cheated, after all I had flown 25,000 miles plus on the airline that year.
This may never appeal to airline execs or actually happen, but the minute any airline
were to institute this rule, they'd surely get my business- even at higher prices or less direct routes. Does anyone agree?

One point I would like to make, however, is that it seems unfair (IMHO) to not recognize this as a flight for status measures. If you regularly commute on a &lt;500 mile flight, you must fly every week for a year to make top tier status. Assuming you use the miles you've gained for your leisure travel, you will likely never accheive top tier without making mileage runs. Don't know what the answer to that is, maybe just count the segments?


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(GO BUCKS)

This looks like a good think-outside-the-box exercise. I agree it's fair to ask "Why not?" That said, they probably won't do it on a promotional basis because it's hard to get wow-power out of it with people they're likely to target. People can't instantly get their arms around what the degree of payoff is like they can with other pitches. Not enough promotional bang for the buck. Many FTers could assess value quickly, but we're the obsessive tip of the iceberg and atypical of the general flying public.

POINTS-BASED programs, though, will buy tickets that EARN MILES. I've redeemed three times on ScoreCard with my elite-status airline and have gotten miles, elite miles, upgrades, the whole bit. Will be going to Europe free for a week (right in the middle of the war, it looks like) on a 20K award that applies $325 for a ticket on any airline to anywhere. It took $20,000 in charges on the credit card to earn it, and I had to do my own research to pounce on an exceptionally low fare to fit it under the $325. But, with elite benefits, the points-award ticket will earn a minimum 17,000 miles.

Now if I can only get bumped while on the trip, too.

i've always thought FF programs should give miles for award tickets, and count them toward elite status. the catch: this would work at the unrestricted/double miles level only. no elite bonus, no class of service bonus, no promo bonuses, just actual flight miles that count toward elite status. heck, delta could even award no miles, just 1x MQM's....

I think that if we recieved not actual miles for award tickets, but rather q-miles/points towards elite qualification it would be win/win for both the frequent fliers and the airlines. One, the frequent fliers would be more prone to use their award miles if the trip would get them closer to elite qualification and two, the airlines could start seeing a reduction in the huge war chest of miles that most elite flyers are sitting on. Note that what I am saying here is that a US-Europe award flight would get you 10K+ towards requalifying for elite status and not the 10K+ miles added to your account. You might put some other restraints on this, for example, you can only RE-Qualify this way, having to make it to elite the old fasioned way the first time, and you still have to fly and pay for a certain number of flights to earn elite.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by gunn:
Correct me if I'm wrong but if you book your award ticket on AA.com, I believe you get 1000AA mi for doing so (until June?).</font>This is true, and I don't see an expiration date. It's a small start, but a start nonetheless -- hopefully, they are considering giving full miles.

They are also promoting it on the homepage, at least right now, with a banner that reads "Earn 1,000 AAdvantage bonus miles by turning miles into free travel. Book your award travel on AA.com." <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Book your award travel on AA.com.... Earn 1,000 bonus miles for each round-trip online booking (http://www.aa.com/content/AAdvantage/programDetails/awards/main.jhtml)</font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Anytime you book your American Airlines, American Eagle or AmericanConnection® round-trip ticket on AA.com, you'll earn 1,000 AAdvantage bonus miles! This booking bonus also applies when you book an AAdvantage award online. Bonus miles will be awarded after your travel is completed. (http://www.aa.com/bonus)</font>



[This message has been edited by Rut Dog (edited 03-21-2003).]

Alright, I'm as greedy as the next ffer - and goodness knows we have enough greedy ones on all the forums on FT. But - enough. I'm in the 'if I fly enough give me an award' category, but I'm Not 'in the if I fly enough give me the award & mileage too even if it's a freebie' category. That's just plain greedy (and in my opinion a bit unethical, but that part is just me). Be glad you have them - and try to use them before all the airlines go out of business http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Cheers.