Air France Frequence Plus - The new AF downgrade policy for Platinum

Flying back yesterday from BKK to CDG, I was pleasantly surprised to be upgraded in business class. at check-in.
3F. Perfect

Unfortunately, during boarding, a BKK AF ground staff came to me, take my ticket and asked me thousands of questions:
- Why have you been upgraded? :confused: I guess that's because I am Platinum, I paid full price in economy class and the aircraft is full.
- Do you know who upgraded your ticket? :confused::confused:How will I know, I am not managing the upgrades at AF (if I would, I will always travel in first!)
- It is Paris which has operated the upgrade. Paris has interfered with BKK. Also, I put you back to economy class! (At the worst place, since the aircraft is complete:td::td:).

No apology about that, and a ground staff staring at me as if I were Air France's Jerome Kerviel.

This is a strange way of taking care with Platinum passengers.

When in the aircraft, I explained the situation with the AF chef de cabine. The staff was wonderful and very understandable. The chef de cabine asked for further explanations with the ground staff manager. He went back and said: I am very sorry about that, as the plane is very full, we can no longer put you in business. But I would advise you to write to the Air France customer relations service, because this situation is very strange.

How long before your flight you'd check in? IMHO there was a last minute full fare business passenger, which they took with them und redowngraded you to your original class of fare.

How long before your flight you'd check in? IMHO there was a last minute full fare business passenger, which they took with them und redowngraded you to your original class of fare.

When check in by internet, I get an economy seat
When ckeck in (around 1hour before boarding) at the airport, I get business seat.
But it is not the explanation given by BKK AF [very unpolite] ground staff: someone in Paris would have upgraded me, which interfere with BKK, that is why BB decided to downgrade me

1.5 years ago, i checked in early morning for a CDG BCN flight. I ask for an emergency exist, I get it and was told by the agent "it is in tempo challenge but no problem". At boarding, it bips, and I am assigned a seat quite in the back. The flight was half empty in all classes. Of course i get what I paid for (even if it is difficult to know in advance where emergency exits will be!) but this shows a lack of courtesy from AF.

There are some downgrades in the air on AF990 tonight. I proceeded early to the check-in desks, kindly asked for an exit row in Tempo just to be told that the flight is full and the exit row would be reserved for downgraded passengers. I'm not so sure I want to seat between furious op-downgraded passengers now... :o

I wonder how can you be downgraded... I mea if you are paying business class... how in the hell you can undergo that..

it's weird...

I have never been OP... doing only LAX-CDG.....

But if I pay or my boss does for business class, there is no way for me to fly coach...

enjoy your flight btw

I wonder how can you be downgraded... I mea if you are paying business class... how in the hell you can undergo that..

it's weird...

I have never been OP... doing only LAX-CDG.....

But if I pay or my boss does for business class, there is no way for me to fly coach...

enjoy your flight btw

I think the people that were downgraded had paid for coach, were upgraded for whatever reason and then downgraded again. This has happened in Continental before but it is unusual (it happened to me once) and they are usually very apologetic. I dont think they would downgrade somebody that paid for business class. In that case you would be entitled to a refund, to say the least.

I dont think they would downgrade somebody that paid for business class. In that case you would be entitled to a refund, to say the least.

Well, err... not exactly, but they somehow do that. I've had the situation that I held a C class ticket MUC_CDG. The plane went tech and was substituted by a wet-leased Avro, which only had economy class. They re-booked me on that flight but refused compensation, saying that I had "voluntarily chosen" to fly in Y, arguing that I could have waited for the next flight with a C cabin two hours later. I didn't even bother complaining, but commercial behaviour like is one more reason to reduce travel on AF to the strictly required minimum.

I dont think they would downgrade somebody that paid for business class. In that case you would be entitled to a refund, to say the least.

Does happen unfortunately.

Most airlines (including AF) overbook both Y and C since some passengers simply do not show up (this can be over 10% of pax on some routes).

Involuntary downgrades have even been know to happen to P pax.....

For some reason AF seems to be particularly bad at handling the customer service aspects of invol downgrades; luckily they do not happen that often.

I'm very impressed.

This is the kind of thing that I will sue AF..

I've just purchased a F ticket, so be sure if I'm downgraded I will sue them..

A ticket is a contract, it's like you treat yourself and buy a ferrari, and you get a ugly french brand... what will you say ? no way for sure...

It's also funny cause I will take Falco Peregrenus's flights to JNB and to CDG, but lately in april. So far we are 5 in the F cabin.. Pressure on..

Cause I'm only Plat and don't have any ATTN.. I do complain a lot but they dont give a damn of me...

If you know what happned to me last month when I flew in F... to CDG.. It's stunning.. but nothing from AF, only apologize...

I'm very impressed.

This is the kind of thing that I will sue AF..

I've just purchased a F ticket, so be sure if I'm downgraded I will sue them..

A ticket is a contract, it's like you treat yourself and buy a ferrari, and you get a ugly french brand... what will you say ? no way for sure...

It's also funny cause I will take Falco Peregrenus's flights to JNB and to CDG, but lately in april. So far we are 5 in the F cabin.. Pressure on..

Cause I'm only Plat and don't have any ATTN.. I do complain a lot but they dont give a damn of me...

If you know what happned to me last month when I flew in F... to CDG.. It's stunning.. but nothing from AF, only apologize...
It must have been terrible! In fact, the way to approach AF is to have very low expectations. Since it used to be very good this is hard to adjust to sometimes. The crew are still always very good. But there is no point in suing as I think they are almost always within the limits of the contract. Just. Simply forget about the 'old' AF and just think about them as if they are Easyjet with a few embellishments. So brilliant is the management at yield they have no need to actually work at product. In any case the management could care less about product. Share value (short term) is all that counts.

hi tks for your message.

here is what happened to me on the flight.. only in french, but i will translate within a day :

Objet : lettre de réclamation



Madame, Monsieur,

Je vous écris aujourd’hui pour protester contre un incident dont j’ai été victime à bord de l’un de vos avions, et qui est proprement scandaleux.

Alors que je voyageais en cabine l’Espace Première sur le vol AF 065, j’ai été violemment pris à parti par l’épouse du commandant de bord. Quelques instants après le décollage, et alors que je regardais paisiblement un film assis sur mon siège, l’épouse du commandant de bord (passagère du siège 1L) s’est permise de venir me voir, de poser sa main fermement sur mon épaule, et de me dire de façon très agressive : « maintenant TU vas arrêter de rire, petit (22ans), parce que nous, on veut dormir ». Ajoutant pour terminer un « TU as compris ? » menaçant et toujours avec la même désobligeance.

Complètement décontenancé et abasourdi par ce qui venait de se passer, je n’ai au premier abord pas compris ce que cette dame -au bord de l’hystérie- voulait… puis ai protesté contre son attitude, lui interdisant de me toucher, de me tutoyer ; et lui suggérant de me parler différemment.

Mais le petit spectacle offert par cette dame aux passagers Première s’est poursuivi, et elle ajouta pompeusement, me vouvoyant cette fois ci : « Et bien VOUS ne savez pas qui je suis : je suis la femme du commandant, et vous n’attendez rien pour que je me plaigne auprès de lui ! ».



Convaincu que le commandant de bord aurait une attitude neutre, cherchant à calmer son épouse, et à faire régner le calme et la sérénité de nouveau; quelle ne fut pas ma surprise lorsqu’il s’aligna de façon aveugle sur l’attitude puérile de son épouse; surenchérissant et ajoutant d’autre part à mon endroit, devant tous les autres passagers : « déjà que vous voyagez avec un billet GRATUIT, alors vous n’avez pas à vous plaindre !».

Comment ce genre de comportements inadmissibles de personnels navigants -supposés être les meilleurs ambassadeurs de la compagnie- peut-il se produire ?

Je vous remercie dés lors de diligenter une enquête à ce sujet, et de sanctionner ces agissements (contact physique avec le passager, agressions verbales) qui d’une part ternissent fortement l’image de la compagnie, en donnent un triste spectacle; et ne me donnent plus l’envie d’emprunter ses lignes d’autre part.

Passager fidèle d’Air France (membre Flying Blue Platinum), j’ai jusque là été en contact avec des PNC/PNT toujours empreints de courtoisie et de prévenance. Je suis à la fois déçu et décontenancé par la vicissitude que je viens de vivre sur ce vol.




En espérant que cette affaire soit traitée au plus vite -et sans parti pris- je vous prie d’agréer Madame, Monsieur, l’expression de mes salutations les meilleures.

I've just purchased a F ticket, so be sure if I'm downgraded I will sue them..


Good luck with that. You won't get very far. The "contract" says they will get you from point A to point B. In case of a downgrade, they are required to refund the difference between the class you were supposed to fly and the class that you were downgraded to, for that particular leg. E.g. if you have a J ticket and get downgraded to Y, the airline owes you the difference between what you paid and FULL fare Y for that leg. It's unfair...

here is what happened to me on the flight...

Wow :eek:

If someting like that happens to me, the CDB can be sure I will use all of my influence (on his bosses, towards the media etc...) to make sure he will live to regret it.

Each time I've seen CDB's family in P, I've complained and have received apologies from AF.

Milesaddict, that is truly awful! :( That guy should be fired!

Flying back yesterday from BKK to CDG, I was pleasantly surprised to be upgraded in business class. at check-in.
3F. Perfect

Unfortunately, during boarding, a BKK AF ground staff came to me, take my ticket and asked me thousands of questions

By any chance was this AF flight #169 on 12 Feb?

If so I was also on the flight (flying tempo) and it was indeed entirely full where I was on the upper deck. The flight originated in SGN (Vietnam) and almost all of us stayed onboard to continue to Paris. Perhaps the seat they upgraded you to unknowingly had a passenger in it from the previous leg and this is where the error occurred?

In any case, regardless of how the mistake occurred, you should have been treated with professionalism and respect. I also encourage you to write a letter of complaint.

Good luck with that. You won't get very far. The "contract" says they will get you from point A to point B. In case of a downgrade, they are required to refund the difference between the class you were supposed to fly and the class that you were downgraded to, for that particular leg. E.g. if you have a J ticket and get downgraded to Y, the airline owes you the difference between what you paid and FULL fare Y for that leg. It's unfair...

That's not correct (though open to interpetation). The usual would be to ask for the difference between full fare C and full fare Y on the leg in question.

That's not correct (though open to interpetation). The usual would be to ask for the difference between full fare C and full fare Y on the leg in question.
Under EU Regulation 261/2004, you would be entitled to 75% of the price of your ticket in case of downgrade on a long-haul flight.

Uhm....am I missing something here?

We are talking about a downgrade from an opup. I mean...not realy a downgrade, but ending up in a seat in the class of travel that was originally booked....an opup that was opdowned so to speak.

So. Apart from the gestapo-style interogation and ending up in the middle seat because of this practice there is not much one can complain about. Asking for a compensation for the diffence between the two cabins would be a bit out of place here...

Uhm....am I missing something here?

We are talking about a downgrade from an opup. I mean...not realy a downgrade, but ending up in a seat in the class of travel that was originally booked....an opup that was opdowned so to speak.

So. Apart from the gestapo-style interogation and ending up in the middle seat because of this practice there is not much one can complain about. Asking for a compensation for the diffence between the two cabins would be a bit out of place here...You are right. I thought we had moved on to a different scenario following milesaddict's first post in the thread. In relation to the OP, of course, there is no entitlement to anything. All that can be expected is a goodwill gesture following a letter to customer relations.

Perhaps it was just his mistress?

Under EU Regulation 261/2004, you would be entitled to 75% of the price of your ticket in case of downgrade on a long-haul flight.

Just to clarify and avoid "disappointment", a downgraded passenger is actually is entitled to 75% of the value of the flight coupon for the flight during which the downgrade happened. Not on the price of the entire ticket. Taxes applying to the downgraded sector are not taken into consideration either.

Most airlines (including AF) overbook both Y and C since some passengers simply do not show up (this can be over 10% of pax on some routes).

Involuntary downgrades have even been know to happen to P pax.....




This is the kind of thing that I will sue AF..

I've just purchased a F ticket, so be sure if I'm downgraded I will sue them..



P is never, ever overbooked. The only time a pax booked in P would be invol downgraded is if there was a last minute change of aircraft and the replacement one did not have an EP cabin. So, yes, effectively it could happen but I wouldn't worry too much about it though... As said many times before, AF have already enough to deal with without alienating their 1st class paxs...

Just to clarify and avoid "disappointment", a downgraded passenger is actually is entitled to 75% of the value of the flight coupon for the flight during which the downgrade happened. Not on the price of the entire ticket. Taxes applying to the downgraded sector are not taken into consideration either.Well, this may be AF's interpretation which, unsurprisingly, adopts the most restrictive interpretation of the Regulation possible.
What the regulation actually says is:Article 10 - Upgrading and downgrading
1. [not relevant here]
2. If an operating air carrier places a passenger in a class lower than that for which the ticket was purchased, it shall within seven days, by the means provided for in Article 7(3), reimburse
[...]
(c) 75 % of the price of the ticket for all flights not falling under (a) or (b), including flights between the European territory of the Member States and the French overseas departments.
Now, I can buy the argument that it should be for the downgraded coupon only (although there is room for argument to the contrary on this) but I would not want to bet money on the European Court of Justice accepting AF's interpretation that taxes should not be taken into account.
There is not one shred of support for such an interpretation in the wording of the Regulation. If AF (ar any other airline) were trying to pull that one on me, that would go straight to the Small Claims court. Interpreting an unclear piece of legislation is one thing, but taking the p..s is quite another.

By any chance was this AF flight #169 on 12 Feb?

If so I was also on the flight (flying tempo) and it was indeed entirely full where I was on the upper deck. The flight originated in SGN (Vietnam) and almost all of us stayed onboard to continue to Paris. Perhaps the seat they upgraded you to unknowingly had a passenger in it from the previous leg and this is where the error occurred?

In any case, regardless of how the mistake occurred, you should have been treated with professionalism and respect. I also encourage you to write a letter of complaint.

Indeed, this is the likely explanation. Probably the SGN station manager got someone in business at the last moment and BKK only learnt about it shortly before the plane arrival. This happened to me once a couple of years ago. Nicolas, I understand the regret you experienced, especially since you ended up with a bad seat in the class you were paying for, but I dont see what compensation you are entitled to. And there is little that the AF staff could do if the flight was full. It is not uncommon that an OPUP gets cancelled at the last minute. That does not excuse the attitude of AF staff, but you might have been a bit unpleasant in your discussion with them.

Taxes applying to the downgraded sector are not taken into consideration either.

Fair enough about actual taxes, and probably also airport charges, but you can bet that I would sue them for every last eurocent of the fuel surcharge.

S.T.U.N.N.I.N.G !!!!!

That's all I can say about the sequence of events you described in your complaint letter. But then again, I am not too surprised. Beside the fact that the captain's wife was completely out of line, his unprofessional put-down of a passenger in front of everyone else - singling out your "free" ticket - when his wife probably paid nothing for hers is simply breathtaking.

Assuming your letter is factually correct, I cannot wait to hear what AF has to say. PLEASE keep us posted. Merci d'avance.

hi tks for your message.

here is what happened to me on the flight.. only in french, but i will translate within a day :

Objet : lettre de réclamation



Madame, Monsieur,

Je vous écris aujourd’hui pour protester contre un incident dont j’ai été victime à bord de l’un de vos avions, et qui est proprement scandaleux.

[... text deleted ...]

En espérant que cette affaire soit traitée au plus vite -et sans parti pris- je vous prie d’agréer Madame, Monsieur, l’expression de mes salutations les meilleures.

Hello,

I don't know if nicolas75 made a typo but seat 3F does not exist on the 747-400 ...

And as others have pointed out, this would not be a downgrade (if the ticket was a J-class ticket it would be a downgrade), rather quite an unfortunate series of events.

Wow.. I would be pretty bummed out if I was you! :D

I have 2 stories about this, the first one involved my old boss who was a complete a-hole. He got upgraded on a flight from ICN-AMS and then some guy came on who said "you are in my seat".. my ex-boss didnt move and the guy who actually paid for his ticket had to take another flight.. I guess once your bum is on the seat, thats it...?

Another time, I was flying AMS-NRT, was boarding last as I was just hanging at the back.. "peep peep" goes the machine.. "Sir congratulations, you have been upgraded".. I was really happy about it and was very grateful.. so I was walking to the tunnel to board, smiling like an idiot.."Mr. Festis, please return to the check in desk"... so I turned around.. walked back, the guy says "sorry sir there was a mistake, we have to put you back in economy".. I made a wee joke saying it was too good to be true.. trying to hold back the emotion of hate an anger I was feeling for him.. then he says "just kidding, you left your passport here on the desk, have a nice flight"... he and the rest of the people at the desk burst out laughing... nice joke.. but evil!!! :D

S.T.U.N.N.I.N.G !!!!!

That's all I can say about the sequence of events you described in your complaint letter. But then again, I am not too surprised. Beside the fact that the captain's wife was completely out of line, his unprofessional put-down of a passenger in front of everyone else - singling out your "free" ticket - when his wife probably paid nothing for hers is simply breathtaking.

Assuming your letter is factually correct, I cannot wait to hear what AF has to say. PLEASE keep us posted. Merci d'avance.

here is the letter... you'd better take a seat...

monsieur,

j'ai bien recu votre courrier dans lequel vous nous faites part de vos observations concercant le deroulement de votre vol a bord du vol AF065.

je regrette sincerement les faits que vous relatez et vous prie d'accepter mes excuses.

je tiens a vous assurer que vos remarques ont ete transmises aux responsables concernes.

je souhaite vivement qu'air france garde votre confiance et prie de croire,
monsieur........

D......
Chargee de relation clientele


groundbreaking.. isn't it ?

Je n'y croix pas!!!!!!! Can't believe it!!!!

What happened to you is absolutely absurd!

Please dear Milesaddict, forward immediately a copy of your letter (and of the absurd answer) to all the main French newspaper (and not only) and Travel magazine. I'm ready to assist you finding adresses, persons to contact, ecc.

Three years ago I was flying with two collegues from MXP to KIX on a AZ 777.

We were the only passengers on Magnifica class. Being a long flight, I decided to take a rest just after the lunch, and what happened? Four guys from cattle class took seats just behind us and started playing cards shouting loughing so loud that it became impossible to sleep. I asked to the FA why they upgraded them seen it was an half empty flight and if she could ask them to stop their party.
The answer was "they are Alitalia employees going to Japan for some reasons. I'll tell ask them if they can reduce their noise". :mad::mad: instead of saying me "sorry sir, I'll ORDER them to stop this noise immediately".
First Result: 5 on 12 hours of flight like that, with even them commenting on us.
Second Result: this was my last intercontinental flight with Alitalia. I now travel with them inside Italy only if obliged and I pray everyday for them to go soon in bankrupcy (they are about to.....:D).

I think that this kind of things happens more often on Latin airlines as in the anglosaxon system the customer care protection (not necessarily the attention) is more developed.

I'd love to be able to read this thread properly but as it's in French I can't.

The official language on Flyertalk is English.

here is the letter... you'd better take a seat...

Write to the media, sending copies of your letters.

I'd love to be able to read this thread properly but as it's in French I can't.

The official language on Flyertalk is English.

Basically, here is the story :

milesaddict was flying AF P on an award ticket, watching a movies, when the captain's wife shouted at him while touching him : "stop laughing young [he's 22] boy, because we would like to sleep".
Then the captain came and he has suprinsingly supported his wife, informing other passengers that milesaddict was even travelling on an award ticket.

Then AF sent the usual bla-bla letter to excuse.

Alors que je voyageais en cabine l’Espace Première sur le vol AF 065, j’ai été violemment pris à parti par l’épouse du commandant de bord.

One more question : what were the purser and other passengers' reactions when that happened?

hi,

the purser was in the business class galley, and pax were really surprised, and they ( Cap and his wife ) should be ashamed...

but I guess my age does matter...

last week I flew back to LA, I went to the stupid lounge.. the ground staff were impressed, cause I have the plat card, so they asked me, who pays my tickets ( they said surely your dad... ) no comment and moreover it's wrong cause I'm working like hell, I did not even bother to reply them, what kind of job I have....

I have a couple of tickets in F.. paid tckets... so I'm pretty sure I will laugh!!

But to tell you the true, when they saw my age for the letter.. I'm sure they thoughts I was saying ........s.. so I was not taken into consideration...

tks for all the supports

Basically, here is the story :

milesaddict was flying AF P on an award ticket, watching a movies, when the captain's wife shouted at him while touching him : "stop laughing young [he's 22] boy, because we would like to sleep".
Then the captain came and he has suprinsingly supported his wife, informing other passengers that milesaddict was even travelling on an award ticket.

Then AF sent the usual bla-bla letter to excuse.


Thanks for the translation. That is terrible from the captain and his wife.

Basically, here is the story :

milesaddict was flying AF P on an award ticket, watching a movies, when the captain's wife shouted at him while touching him : "stop laughing young [he's 22] boy, because we would like to sleep".
Then the captain came and he has suprinsingly supported his wife, informing other passengers that milesaddict was even travelling on an award ticket.

Then AF sent the usual bla-bla letter to excuse.


but I guess my age does matter...


:eek::eek::eek: I'm wondering if I should book an A-award as an 18 year old - with good manners! - after all...

that is SHOCKING! :eek: