Mileage Run Discussion - DL: Back-to-back ticketing HELP!

So I have been researching some milage runs to complete with the 2x europe promo and have an intresting senario.

I can book PHL-MUC roundtrip and MUC-PHL round trip for under $1000.

Trip A
PHL-ATL-MUC Depart 2/1 1Arrive 2/12
Trip B
MUC-ATL-PHL Depart 2/12 Arrive 2/12
Trip B
PHL-ATL-MUC Depart 2/17 Arrive 2/18
Trip A
MUC-ATL-PHL Depart 2/18 Arrive 2/18

I want to fly all the ticketed segments - typically back-to-back ticketing is used get a lower price on the return segment and then not using the rest of the ticket.

I found another route that was a little more than $1200 but it's a KILLER
PHL-ATL-LAX-HNL-LAX-ATL-MUC-ATL-LAX-HNL-LAX-ATL-PHL that nets over 30k miles booked as PHL-HNL and HNL-MUC. It takes 7 days to complete - and would be completely 'legal' - but I dont think I could make it that long!

So I have been researching some milage runs to complete with the 2x europe promo and have an intresting senario.

I can book PHL-MUC roundtrip and MUC-PHL round trip for under $1000.

Trip A
PHL-ATL-MUC Depart 2/1 1Arrive 2/12
Trip B
MUC-ATL-PHL Depart 2/12 Arrive 2/12
Trip B
PHL-ATL-MUC Depart 2/17 Arrive 2/18
Trip A
MUC-ATL-PHL Depart 2/18 Arrive 2/18

I want to fly all the ticketed segments - typically back-to-back ticketing is used get a lower price on the return segment and then not using the rest of the ticket.

I found another route that was a little more than $1200 but it's a KILLER
PHL-ATL-LAX-HNL-LAX-ATL-MUC-ATL-LAX-HNL-LAX-ATL-PHL that nets over 30k miles booked as PHL-HNL and HNL-MUC. It takes 7 days to complete - and would be completely 'legal' - but I dont think I could make it that long!

So for either trip, just how many miles would it be and what woud the cpm end up being?

And what exactly is the "2x Euro Promo"?

The 2 tickets to MUC are 1058.62$ total

MQM: 666+4800+4800+666 = 10,932 x 2 = 21,864TotalMQM or 0.04CPM
SM: 666+4800+4800+666 = 10,932 x 2 = 21,864 + 19,200 bonus miles = 41,064 TotalSM or 0.025CPM

http://www.delta.com/eurorewards

The milage for PHL-HNL&HNL-MUC:

MQM: 666+4502+4502+4800+4800+4502+4502+666 = 28,940Total MQM or 0.043CPM
SM: 666+4502+4502+4800+4800+4502+4502+666 = 28,940Total + 9,600 bonus miles = 38,540 TotalSM or 0.032CPM

OP, what is your question, please? What do you need help on?

Sorry my post may not have been clear.

I believe that my routing with the 2 tickets to MUC is not 'legal' in the view of DL. I wanted to get clarification before I book the tickets - I don't want to arrive in MUC and find out they won't let me board the return flight because I have 2 tickets and they are going to consider it 'back-to-back' ticketing

The key issue is whether the way your itinerary is created violates "applicable tariff rules such as advance purchase and minimum stay requirements. (http://www.delta.com/travel-agency/resource/delta_policies/crs_booking/forbidden/index.jsp)" Stated differently, are you "combining multiple overlapping round-trip tickets to circumvent Saturday or other overnight stay requirements? (http://www.delta.com/planning_reservations/plan_flight/online_reservations/fares_ticketing_rules/)" If not -- in other words, if there is no conflict between the rules of the tickets -- you should be fine.

I don't see it that way - but Delta may.

If I were to book two trips without overlaping the fare would be much higher - but I am using all segments of the both tickets.

I just want to make sure I am not in a situation where I am in part of the segment and a DL agent stops me....

If trip A has a saturday night stay and/or 7 day stay requirement (as seems likely) wouldn't the nested trip be a clear violation of the rules - as SAT lawyer has provided links to?

Isn't THAT another of the typical uses of back-to-back ticketing? (I'm not convinced that just flying all segments puts you in the clear...)

I know nothing about Delta.. and have never flown them... but I thought this was an interesting thread so looked at those links...

It seems a pretty clear statement to this "newbie"! :(

How about flying the nested portion on a different airline?:D

Delta has a promotion where certain European cities will net you double miles on the JFK-Europe or ATL-Europe segments only. Not all cities, only certain destinations from each gateway. Since I fly to Berlin about once a month, I will be able to get double miles on my JFK-TXL flights. Requires r/t travel according to the rules.

Best to book the two tickets seperately, o two different search engines.. ie one with delta's website, and another through say, Expedia.

It won't matter much though, as if the ticket counter agent pulls up the reservations by FF#, both reservations will pull up...

JP
Best to book the two tickets seperately, o two different search engines.. ie one with delta's website, and another through say, Expedia.

It won't matter much though, as if the ticket counter agent pulls up the reservations by FF#, both reservations will pull up...

JP

It's not the ticket counter you need to worry about, it's their internal reservations. And FF # will be the smoking gun.

It's not the ticket counter you need to worry about, it's their internal reservations. And FF # will be the smoking gun.Or rather their Revenue Protection Unit, who may well audit the FF account and deny any miles at all on all segments.

So I have been researching some milage runs to complete with the 2x europe promo and have an intresting senario.

I can book PHL-MUC roundtrip and MUC-PHL round trip for under $1000.

Trip A
PHL-ATL-MUC Depart 2/1 1Arrive 2/12
Trip B
MUC-ATL-PHL Depart 2/12 Arrive 2/12
Trip B
PHL-ATL-MUC Depart 2/17 Arrive 2/18
Trip A
MUC-ATL-PHL Depart 2/18 Arrive 2/18


I believe that my routing with the 2 tickets to MUC is not 'legal' in the view of DL. I wanted to get clarification before I book the tickets - I don't want to arrive in MUC and find out they won't let me board the return flight because I have 2 tickets and they are going to consider it 'back-to-back' ticketingOf course they'll consider it back-to-back ticketing, it's the very definition of back-to-back ticketing. While many folks get away with back-to-back ticketing, if I had to bet on one airline most likely to catch it and sanction an FF for using it, Delta would be the one.

I want to fly all the ticketed segments - typically back-to-back ticketing is used get a lower price on the return segment and then not using the rest of the ticket.This is not true, as I said what you propose is the very definition of back-to-back tickeitng, buying a round-trip ticket with no intention of using the return portion is called throw-away ticketing.

Isn't this example "nested" ticketing?
Bad, as in this case, if you return to the point of origin.
Not so bad if you return and depart from another airport.

Despite all the ranting & flaming ... what the OP needs to consider: if the "A" fare contains any kind of minimum-stay language, then I'd be looking for someplace other than PHL for the "B" legs.

/.

Despite all the ranting & flaming ... what the OP needs to consider: if the "A" fare contains any kind of minimum-stay language, then I'd be looking for someplace other than PHL for the "B" legs.

/.

So if he booked one PHL-MUC, and another using say BWI, ABE, or EWR, he'd be OK then, according to the letter of the rule?

So if he booked one PHL-MUC, and another using say BWI, ABE, or EWR, he'd be OK then, according to the letter of the rule?That is end-on-end ticketing, which is usually okay by the rules.

So if he booked one PHL-MUC, and another using say BWI, ABE, or EWR, he'd be OK then, according to the letter of the rule?

He could either fly one PHL-MUC-PHL and the other MUC-BWI/ABE/EWR-MUC. Or he could do PHL-MUC-PHL and FRA-PHL-MUC or something similar so that the open end is in Europe (but harder to make a same-day turnaround in Europe if the latter option).

Back-to-back ticket/nested ticket - the terminology might be different but the end result is the same - to circumvent minimum stay requirements. As was mentioned earlier, Delta is very advanced in catching this. I know of a person who did this for flights within the US and Delta charged him the fare difference which ended up being over $1,000.

John

Isn't this example "nested" ticketing?
Bad, as in this case, if you return to the point of origin.
Not so bad if you return and depart from another airport.Back-to-back ticketing IS nested ticketing with return to origin.
I would not be so sure that just returning to another US airport would get the OP off-the-hook. Difficult to say that returning to, say, WAS rather than PHL is not avoiding a sat night stay restriction.
Like Beckles, I would personally not try it with DL. Too risky. Would be OK if you flew the other ticket with another airline and credited to another FFP, but you increase the risk by flying the same airline and crediting it all to their FFP and double the risk if that airline is DL.

Right, flying A-B-A, then B-C-B within that itinerary is "nested" ticketing, and not against the rules. If C=A, then that is back-to-back ticketing, a special case of nested ticketing that is against the rules. Whether you get caught, of course, is a different question.

I am intrigued by the question of whether non-co-terminal but close-by cities, like BWI and PHL, counts as back-to-back ticketing. It obviously violates the spirit of the rule, but probably not the letter. Of course, if it were against the rules, where would one draw the line? Would MUC-BWI-MUC within PHL-MUC-PHL not be allowed but MUC-DEN-MUC within PHL-MUC-PHL be allowed? I would doubt that they would catch that and punish you for it.

I'd be curious to see if they allow that, and would be curious to see what happens to the OP if he/she is the guinea pig!

DL defines back-to-back itcketing in its CoC rather widely asthe issuance, purchase or usage of flight coupons from two or more tickets issued at round trip fares, or the combination of two or more round-trip excursion fares end to end on the same ticket for the purpose of circumventing minimum stay requirementsThis is wide enough to cover not only back-to-back ticketing in the strict sense but also a return to another point, where the purpose is to avoid minimum stay requirements.

I understand the logic behind prohibiting back-to-back ticketing, but the airline is shooting itself in the leg. I once bought a DL ticket SFO-ATL-SFO for a long-term stay in ATL. Due to unforeseen circumstances, I had to return to SFO at some point for a couple of days. I had the option of changing the return flight, with a significant penalty, and buying a new round-trip ticket for the remainder of the ATL gig, or the option of keeping the original ticket as is and buying a nested ticket ATL-SFO-ATL. The latter option was of course cheaper, so I bought such a ticket. And due to DL's prohibition, they lost the potential revenue: I bought and flew UA instead.

So your unplanned return must have happened soon after the initial arrrival? Soon enough to be breaking the Sat night/x days stay requirement?

Cos if it didn't, then the nesting would surely be perfectly legal....:confused:

Nesting itself is fine.. just not to avoid those restrictions..... true???

Fly SFO-ATL.. you are there for 2 weeks of the planned three months (say) THEN you buy the new ATL-SFO-ATL ticket becuase you find you need a quick SFO visit...... Where's the problem? That should be perfectly legal?????

P.S. Ranting and flaming? I can see some folks firmly warning the OP that he might end up $$$$ out of pocket.. that's all......

I agree with you, trooper, but that was a business trip and bookings are made by my company's travel department. They do not care to evaluate every time if a nested trip will violate any rule, so they implicitly require that any nested trip be on a different airline. May be silly, but the point is that the airline that imposed the restriction lost the opportunity for revenue of the inner ticket.

I think I have found the solution to this problem. I can book the same low airfare departing on Saturday (arriving sunday) and then return on the flight back on Sunday.

I am going to post in the DL forum about the connection time in MUC. The arriving flight gets in at 7:55AM and the return departs at 10:00AM. 2 hours in MUC to clear customs, check-in again and get back to the gate. Anyone here know if that's possible?