Practical Travel Safety Issues - Travelers to Canada, Mexico can apply for passport cards in Feb.

WASHINGTON -- The State Department says it will begin accepting applications on Feb. 1 for passport cards as alternatives to passports for Americans who travel to Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean.

More at:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420ap_passport_cards.html

Also, a previous thread on this subject. I decided to start a new thread rather than dredge up the old one, but mods, feel free to merge.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=614384&highlight=passport+card

So...Why wouldn't they be accepted for air travel to/from Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean?

So...Why wouldn't they be accepted for air travel to/from Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean?

Beats me. Another thing I don't get it this:

"They will cost $45 for adults and $35 for children, cheaper than a regular passport, and adults who have passports will have to pay only $20."

Why would people who have passports need to get this card in the first place? The only thing I can think of would be so you could travel during the processing time it takes to renew your passport. It seems like if they just made that process faster instead of adding yet another layer of bureacracy, it would make like easier for everyone.

I guess it would also be an easier document to carry (wallet-sized) than a full size passport, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to pay the extra $20 just for that.

Why would people who have passports need to get this card in the first place? The only thing I can think of would be so you could travel during the processing time it takes to renew your passport. It seems like if they just made that process faster instead of adding yet another layer of bureacracy, it would make like easier for everyone.

I guess it would also be an easier document to carry (wallet-sized) than a full size passport, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to pay the extra $20 just for that.

Those of us who live on the border and cross frequently would be happy to have a credit card sized passport to carry instead of the larger booklet style. Of course, having a back-up is also very handy.

I guess it would also be an easier document to carry (wallet-sized) than a full size passport, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to pay the extra $20 just for that.

If the card is as "privacy friendly" as a passport (no home address), then it might be useful for domestic travel and fulfilling other useless requests for "photo ID." I don't like pulling out my driver's license (DL) for non driving tasks for a couple of reasons. 1) My home address should not be the business of the airline, ID checker, or any other potential household thief or identity thief. 2) If I lose my DL, I can't rent a car or drive; if I lose my alternate ID, no major impact to my trip.

A passport works, but is pain to carry for domestic.

I however doubt it will be as privacy friendly as an old INSPass (no visible expiration date, no home address, no real information other than name, photo, DOB, and passport #) or as an old Library-of-Congress card (no information other than photo and name). Unfortunately I never took the time to get the LoC card, but I do have the INSPass.

If the card is as "privacy friendly" as a passport (no home address), then it might be useful for domestic travel and fulfilling other useless requests for "photo ID." I don't like pulling out my driver's license (DL) for non driving tasks for a couple of reasons. 1) My home address should not be the business of the airline, ID checker, or any other potential household thief or identity thief. 2) If I lose my DL, I can't rent a car or drive; if I lose my alternate ID, no major impact to my trip.

Agreed. I could see myself paying the $20 for this card, also provided it was valid for as long (or nearly as long) as a regular passport.

If the card is as "privacy friendly" as a passport (no home address), then it might be useful for domestic travel and fulfilling other useless requests for "photo ID." I don't like pulling out my driver's license (DL) for non driving tasks for a couple of reasons. 1) My home address should not be the business of the airline, ID checker, or any other potential household thief or identity thief. 2) If I lose my DL, I can't rent a car or drive; if I lose my alternate ID, no major impact to my trip.

A passport works, but is pain to carry for domestic.

I however doubt it will be as privacy friendly as an old INSPass (no visible expiration date, no home address, no real information other than name, photo, DOB, and passport #) or as an old Library-of-Congress card (no information other than photo and name). Unfortunately I never took the time to get the LoC card, but I do have the INSPass.

Agreed.

Alas my INSPass card is so faded that nobody would even think about accepting it.


So...Why wouldn't they be accepted for air travel to/from Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean?

If I had to guess, it may have to do with standardization at the US entry ports. I remember reading a brief a long time ago before my transfer that stated the mixture of identity documents being presented a US POE were dragging the process down. Passports books are in a standard format and so getting rid of that hodgepodge of DL+b/c combo for US citizens would make life so much easier for ICE (as they are called now). Again guessing, I think the cruise pax load per port is way lower than at airports. Plus I don't think they're all that ummmm "gung ho" at cruise ports seeing as the 5-6 times we had to clear US immigration the ICE agents barely even glanced at our passports and only once were they scanned into a terminal!

Passports books are in a standard format and so getting rid of that hodgepodge of DL+b/c combo for US citizens would make life so much easier for ICE (as they are called now).

It's actually CBP that does border inspections. ICE handles enforcement of immigration laws.

So...Why wouldn't they be accepted for air travel to/from Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean?

The simple (albeit useless) bureaucratic answer is because it's not one of the approved documents for the WHTI Air final rule. But given that it's going to be machine readable there's no real reason why it couldn't be used at an Air border (especially from a Canadian pre-clearance airport) if CBP wanted it to be.

And I suppose one other benefit since it has an RFID chip is you likely won't need to actually pull it out of your wallet at the border for them to check it. Now if only they either eliminate the silly WHTI rules or Ontario manages to actually get permission to access federal citizenship databases for its new smart driver's license, we might have a similar card up here. Of course, I've already got a NEXUS card so I guess it doesn't really matter.

It's actually CBP that does border inspections. ICE handles enforcement of immigration laws.

Yeah my bad. I always flip-flop the two :o

I thought of another reason on the way home...the passport card won't have all those snazzy pages for the CBP ;) agent to flip through. :rolleyes:

It is good for 10 years. Check out the DoS verbiage and artwork>> http://travel.state.gov/pdf/WHTI_Passport_Sheet.pdf.

Looking at the graphics of the front and back of the card, the intention of it seems to be wallet-sized passport alternative. Emphasis on "passport," which, of course, does not carry SSN or residence info. ::fingers crossed:: If it turns out to be the case, $20 to avert unnecessary pawing of one's passport may be worth it to some.

Interesting ... the according to the Federal Register (http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/ppt_card_reg.pdf) the passport card is valid without a signature, unlike the passport book. Huh.

Natch, lots of privacy concerns ...

FederalTimes.com: Passport cards raise privacy concerns (http://federaltimes.com/index.php?S=3281211)
WaPo: Security and Convenience at the Borders (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/10/AR2008011003292.html)
PC World: Privacy Concerns Over 'Leaky' U.S. Passport Card (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,141199-c,privacy/article.html)

It is good for 10 years. Check out the DoS verbiage and artwork>> http://travel.state.gov/pdf/WHTI_Passport_Sheet.pdf.


"For adults who already have a passport book, they may apply for the card as a passport renewal and pay only $20."

hmmmm So would current passport holders have to wait until renewal time or is the card just processed as a renewal?

hmmmm So would current passport holders have to wait until renewal time or is the card just processed as a renewal?

The latter. "Renewal" is a funny choice of word in this context, but they mean to distinguish that fee from the application "execution" fee. :rolleyes:

I can see the value in convenience, or if you misplace your passport while outside the country but don't lose your wallet. If you had your passport card, immigrations could use that in lieu of the passport. Also, if you are near a US embassy, it would be an easier form of ID for them to generate a new passport.

Given that the US and Europe scan your entry page, and I'm assuming can pull up all of your travel history based solely on that, why do we need actual full sized passports anyway? Do we actually NEED physical VISAs, or could we trust the embassies to transmit that info electronically to the computer networks used at the ports of entry? (I know, we've got a lot of work to do to fix the bugs in the present system first)

It's actually CBP that does border inspections. ICE handles enforcement of immigration laws.

Actually, ICE does a lot more than that, despite what the public seems to remember. The "C" in the agency acronym refers to the enforcement of customs laws. They are also responsible for the security of federal buildings (the Federal Protective Service).

Given that the US and Europe scan your entry page, and I'm assuming can pull up all of your travel history based solely on that, why do we need actual full sized passports anyway? Do we actually NEED physical VISAs, or could we trust the embassies to transmit that info electronically to the computer networks used at the ports of entry?

Presumably we still need passport books for the entry and exit stamps? Each country can only pull up its own travel history in the computer. They might like the stamps to see travel to other countries.

This would be extremely convenient for me since I travel between the islands via boat regularly.

Assuming this is a plastic card, the wear and tear of the occasional saltwater spritz on my passport would be negated, since I don't need to bring it with me. Furthermore, I wouldn't need to have pages added as frequently, since there wouldn't be any stamps involved. On top of it, a more secure ID for air travel than my license (which has my address on it) and a more legitimate looking one (than my PR license which on more than has gotten a raised eyebrow and question, and one two ocassions has gotten the police called to verify its authenticity).

I think I'll add feb. 1 to my calendar... this actually interests me.

**edit**

just got of the phone with the Passport Info center. It's gonna be plastic, like most drivers license and US military ID's. The earliest the cards would be out is Late spring/early summer.

This would be extremely convenient for me since I travel between the islands via boat regularly.

Assuming this is a plastic card, the wear and tear of the occasional saltwater spritz on my passport would be negated, since I don't need to bring it with me. Furthermore, I wouldn't need to have pages added as frequently, since there wouldn't be any stamps involved. On top of it, a more secure ID for air travel than my license (which has my address on it) and a more legitimate looking one (than my PR license which on more than has gotten a raised eyebrow and question, and one two ocassions has gotten the police called to verify its authenticity).

I think I'll add feb. 1 to my calendar... this actually interests me.

**edit**

just got of the phone with the Passport Info center. It's gonna be plastic, like most drivers license and US military ID's. The earliest the cards would be out is Late spring/early summer.


Because PR licenses look like they were made in a back alley?


Out of curiosity, I asked my bank rep if they would accept the passport card. You normally ID yourself using your ATM/checkcard+PIN but you sometimes need a second (photo) ID for large transactions. He said since they take any national passport then yes, the passport card would be valid. Though he did admit they would probably have to do some checking around because they don't have copies of what the cards look like in that ID Guide (http://www.driverslicenseguide.com/us.asp) book they keep on hand in case someone presents an oddball ID (like PR :D).

Because PR licenses look like they were made in a back alley?

hah! not even. I had a back alley Georgia license that I used as a fake ID in high school and part of college that looked more legit.

[QUOTE=jonesing;9051790Out of curiosity, I asked my bank rep if they would accept the passport card. You normally ID yourself using your ATM/checkcard+PIN but you sometimes need a second (photo) ID for large transactions. He said since they take any national passport then yes, the passport card would be valid. Though he did admit they would probably have to do some checking around because they don't have copies of what the cards look like in that ID Guide (http://www.driverslicenseguide.com/us.asp) book they keep on hand in case someone presents an oddball ID (like PR :D).[/QUOTE]

I've never had a problem at any bank ;) Costco in Orlando and a corner gas station near LAX are the only non-airport places I've had a hard time with my PR license. The Costco incident (yes, it was an incident) ended with my getting an extra years membership and a letter of apology from corporate on their letterhead (all over a case of Sam Adams I wanted to buy) and the gas station incident was resolved by my dictating every detail of my license to the clerk.

. . . . On top of it, a more secure ID for air travel than my license (which has my address on it) . . . .


better re-read the program rules. the passport card will NOT be valid for air travel. keep that passport in a baggie to keep it dry.

better re-read the program rules. the passport card will NOT be valid for air travel. keep that passport in a baggie to keep it dry.
The way I understand it, the rules only apply for international air travel, in which case I'd have my passport with me. I mean for domestic air travel, which I would assume and hope it would be accepted for, in which case this would provide me with a more secure ID than a drivers license and one which can't be thumbed around by an overzealous TSO like my passport. (so, you went to Morocco huh?)

As for a baggie, they don't work as well as one would hope. After crossing from Fajardo to Virgin Gorda, the passport is always at least a bit damp. They get shaken around so much and shift so much that the seals can open and let water in.

better re-read the program rules. the passport card will NOT be valid for air travel. keep that passport in a baggie to keep it dry.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/11/real.id.ap/index.html

Chertoff said that in instances where a particular state doesn't seek a waiver, its residents will have to use a passport or a newly created federal passport card if they want to avoid a vigorous secondary screening at airport security.

Given that the US and Europe scan your entry page, and I'm assuming can pull up all of your travel history based solely on that, why do we need actual full sized passports anyway?

My US passports' "entry page" have gotten scanned at European airports on less than 40% of my entries into the EU Schengen area since the start of last year. If anything, the US CBP examines my US passports far more consistently than any EU airport where I have entered into the EU using a US passport.

Passports also have a "benefit" for those times when computer systems go down or a client terminal has issues or selective functionality has a process restriction/downing and a place to "stamp"/"track" is "required".

Each country can only pull up its own travel history in the computer.

Not true for each country. Some countries and agencies and even private firms can pull up travel history for more than just "its own [country's] travel history".

They might like the stamps to see travel to other countries.

That will not necessarily give them an accurate representation of other countries visited.

The simple (albeit useless) bureaucratic answer is because it's not one of the approved documents for the WHTI Air final rule. But given that it's going to be machine readable there's no real reason why it couldn't be used at an Air border (especially from a Canadian pre-clearance airport) if CBP wanted it to be.

And I suppose one other benefit since it has an RFID chip is you likely won't need to actually pull it out of your wallet at the border for them to check it. Now if only they either eliminate the silly WHTI rules or Ontario manages to actually get permission to access federal citizenship databases for its new smart driver's license, we might have a similar card up here. Of course, I've already got a NEXUS card so I guess it doesn't really matter.

Go ahead and TRY to use your NEXUS card to fly anywhere other than
the U.S. or Mexico.

Likewise let them TRY to use the new passport card to do anything other than DRIVE across US-Canada or US-Mexico Border or TRY to use it to
FLY outside North America to anywhere else, say South America for example.

Good luck.

Driver Licenses are NOT id. They do NOT prove CITIZENSHIP.

My US passports' "entry page" have gotten scanned at European airports on less than 40% of my entries into the EU Schengen area since the start of last year. If anything, the US CBP examines my US passports far more consistently than any EU airport where I have entered into the EU using a US passport.

Passports also have a "benefit" for those times when computer systems go down or a client terminal has issues or selective functionality has a process restriction/downing and a place to "stamp"/"track" is "required".

Interesting. Mine always get scanned going into Germany (and usually handed back with a nod and little else). I don't remember if immigration at CDG did consistently or not. Of course they don't in the UK because I've yet to experience an immigration official even using a copmuter there.

I admit that this is more forward looking than anything else, if the governments were to work with one another regarding passport info. In theory, it COULD be as easy as a person swiping their own passport (or passport card) through a turnstile like machine and maybe having immigration officers spot-checking people to ensure that they are who they claim to be.

How easy would that make immigrations? Well, it doesn't hurt to hope. Of course when systems go down, it is nice to have a backup, but if a passport card were considered proof of identity, it really wouldn't matter. In my opinion, if computer systems go down, immigration should not be holding people up while they wait for it to come back up. Computer crashes are (presumably) unpredicted, so it would be far-reaching to assume that a terrorist could cause a system to crash and then sneak in while the systems were down. Considering the ease of both north and south illegal border crossings, there are easier ways to sneak in.

The UK's IRIS system works on the basis of biometrics to automate entry but sometimes the system is down too.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/11/real.id.ap/index.html

Chertoff said that in instances where a particular state doesn't seek a waiver, its residents will have to use a passport or a newly created federal passport card if they want to avoid a vigorous secondary screening at airport security.

More threats from an agency that's supposed to work FOR the American people.

Not true for each country. Some countries and agencies and even private firms can pull up travel history for more than just "its own [country's] travel history".

Interesting. I would imagine, for example, that countries of the EU have some sort of data sharing agreement for that information? How do private companies get access to the information? That doesn't happen in the US, unless you count airlines having reservation information.

That will not necessarily give them an accurate representation of other countries visited.

Not fully. But it'll give them most of it.

Interesting. I would imagine, for example, that countries of the EU have some sort of data sharing agreement for that information? How do private companies get access to the information? That doesn't happen in the US, unless you count airlines having reservation information.

The EU has SIS (I/II) and there is some data-sharing but it has its limitations -- by design as well by circumstances. The EU systems' touchpoints with private companies is not what I was referring to throughout the entirety of my post, but the touchpoints of immigration and customs-related systems and scoring systems used for say "selections" and "secondaries" that are in place elsewhere can be rather substantial -- including private companies being granted access for design, maintenance, analysis and reiterations. And that is just on the formal side, while there are also the offshore government-supported and "'public'-private partnerships" that actually would constitute a violation of law if done "at home" or in the "target market" countries themselves.

Not fully. But it'll give them most of it.

It'll give them most of it only for those who don't care that such details are known or for those who don't know how to systematically make sure that officials don't know. In other words, passport stamps are an unreliable method to use against "effective" criminals out there.

The latter. "Renewal" is a funny choice of word in this context, but they mean to distinguish that fee from the application "execution" fee. :rolleyes:

"For adults who already have a passport book, they may apply for the card as a passport renewal and pay only $20."

hmmmm So would current passport holders have to wait until renewal time or is the card just processed as a renewal?

So how is State going to handle the first-time issuance of the passport card with the "renewal" price. Is one going to have to mail in an application form along with one's current passport and be without passport until the existing passport book and new passport card come back?

That would be absurdly unfriendly, but one never knows with these folks.

So how is State going to handle the first-time issuance of the passport card with the "renewal" price. Is one going to have to mail in an application form along with one's current passport and be without passport until the existing passport book and new passport card come back?

That would be absurdly unfriendly, but one never knows with these folks.

You read my mind. I can't wait to find out how this boondoggle unravels.

You read my mind. I can't wait to find out how this boondoggle unravels.

My bet: it'll be just like the states that permit you to have EITHER a DL OR an official ID, but not BOTH.

My bet: it'll be just like the states that permit you to have EITHER a DL OR an official ID, but not BOTH.

No--they've already said you can have both a passport card and a passport book.

It doesn't really clear up all the questions, but the final rule is definitely a good read:
http://www.regulations.gov/fdmspublic/component/main?main=DocumentDetail&o=0900006480380b0c


The Government of Canada encourages a high-profile outreach campaign regarding WHTI and the release of the passport card. It also urges that the implementation of WHTI be postponed until June 1, 2009, and suggests that the use of the passport card be expanded to the air environment to increase its versatility, thus making it a more attractive option.
The Department of State appreciates the comments expressed by the Government of Canada. For the past year, the Department of State and DHS
have conducted an extensive public service campaign to educate the public on the requirements of WHTI. The success of this campaign is evidenced
by the surge in passport applications through May 2007. We anticipate that this momentum will continue as we get closer to full implementation.
We note that the passport card, as currently designed and conceived, is for use at land and sea borders only. The passport card will be available to United States citizens nationwide, but its primary purpose is to facilitate the travel of those living in the border region. It is not a globally interoperable
document. The Department of State continues to believe that it is a valuable low-cost alternative to the traditional book format passport.


Global Interoperability of the Passport Card
Several comments suggested that the passport card should not be restricted for use only at land borders but should be available for use in the air
environment for travel between the United States, Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean. The passport card was specifically designed to respond to the concerns expressed by border communities in regard to the requirements of WHTI. The passport card is designed specifically to address the unique circumstances of land border crossings and is not intended to be a globally interoperable travel document. Therefore, passport cards will not be designed to meet the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standards and recommendations for globally interoperable passports. Because the passport card will be specifically designed to facilitate land and sea border crossings, it is not compatible with the global air environment, which is already set up for passport books. In addition, extending the use of the passport card to the air environment could create confusion with the traveling public should they attempt to use the passport card for travel to a country other than Mexico, Canada or the Caribbean.

Presumably we still need passport books for the entry and exit stamps? They might like the stamps to see travel to other countries.

Slightly OT but passport related. Does any one know? Every ten years when you renew a passport, does DOS go through the old passport and record all the stamps and visas to add to their ever increasing database about Citizen YOU? Is that why renewal takes so long? :rolleyes:

Slightly OT but passport related. Does any one know? Every ten years when you renew a passport, does DOS go through the old passport and record all the stamps and visas to add to their ever increasing database about Citizen YOU? Is that why renewal takes so long? :rolleyes:

Don't know but doubt it. I don't imagine that they reasonably have the time to do that for every person, and most of it (if it is recorded) is easier entered in the computer at the port of entry.

Stereotypes concerning government workers aside, you're asking a lot of them to expect that to be done.

So how is State going to handle the first-time issuance of the passport card with the "renewal" price. Is one going to have to mail in an application form along with one's current passport and be without passport until the existing passport book and new passport card come back?

That would be absurdly unfriendly, but one never knows with these folks.

You read my mind. I can't wait to find out how this boondoggle unravels.

Given the interpretation that current passport book holders can get the card for only the $20 "renewal" fee, I'm hoping that you would apply for the card by mail (just like an adult passport renewal) but you would only have you indicate your current passport number which they can easily verify on their system.

The back of the card says:


Valid only for international land and sea travel between United States, Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean and Bermuda

How long until a TSO decides that it isn't valid ID for domestic air travel?:td:

So how is State going to handle the first-time issuance of the passport card with the "renewal" price. Is one going to have to mail in an application form along with one's current passport and be without passport until the existing passport book and new passport card come back?

That would be absurdly unfriendly, but one never knows with these folks.
I called the passport office. I was told to mail out my birth certificate.

That I can live without for a few weeks.

The back of the card says:



How long until a TSO decides that it isn't valid ID for domestic air travel?:td:
That's been lingering in the back of my mind, and I'm not really dying to know. I'll wait until the situation presents itself.

I called the passport office. I was told to mail out my birth certificate.

That I can live without for a few weeks.

Interesting. Normally when renewing a passport you need to submit the old passport.

Then again, the contractors at the passport information call center are usually the last to know about anything like this. I'd just wait until 2/1 when the real forms are out.

The back of the card says:

Quote:
Valid only for international land and sea travel between United States, Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean and Bermuda


How long until a TSO decides that it isn't valid ID for domestic air travel?:td:

. . . the issuing authority has stated on the card itself what the validity is ["international land and sea travel . . ."] so why are you frothing at the mouth about imaginary actions by a TSO?

i am all in favor of scrapping bogus security, but i do not intend to blame any TSO if i am required to show a different form of id than this passport card for a domestic flight.

by the way, you still do not have to show an id for a domestic flight, just be ready for the "special" search.

grow up and work to resolve the situation, not pin the blame where it does not belong.

Interesting. Normally when renewing a passport you need to submit the old passport.

Ugh... yeah. Last renewal I bought a quickie MIA-NAS (literally, an 8 hour trip) and had a same day renewal done the day before departure. I couldn't afford to lose my passport for that long then. This time, I'm in a similar position, but there's a 3 week period in May where I'm not travelling internationally on aircraft at all, and another one in July.

Looks like I'm expediting this sucker unless... (read below)

Then again, the contractors at the passport information call center are usually the last to know about anything like this. I'd just wait until 2/1 when the real forms are out.

...my newfound hope that they're right is fulfilled. I really hope that they're right about this.

I suppose I'll find out in about 2 weeks, won't I :)

i am all in favor of scrapping bogus security, but i do not intend to blame any TSO if i am required to show a different form of id than this passport card for a domestic flight.
The passport card will be a federally-issued ID that provides proof of identity and citizenship. It is not valid for passport control purposes for arrivals by air, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be viewed as a valid piece of identification.

A driver's license is a document verifying that the holder is permitted to operate motor vehicles, and it's accepted by the TSA, so it would be rather silly if they didn't accept the new form of the passport, the passport card.