Travel Technology - HD DVD's and players

A relative wants to buy the Planet Earth DVD set for my husband. We have an HD 1040p tv but do not yet have an HD player. Would he be able to watch the HD DVD's on our present player but with less resolution, or would they not work at all. Can you watch HD DVD's on a laptop? We do plan to acquire an HD player sometime soon.

They will not work at all. HDDVD's ONLY play on an HDDVD player. Same with Bluray discs, they need a Bluray player to work.

That said; Planet Earth IS also available as a "normal" DVD set which will work, but of course won't have the high resolution of HDDVD.

Thank you. I suspected that was the case. One more thing, if we have a standard DVD and a player that upgrades (can't think of a good word) the signal to 1080p, how good would the picture be on a 60" Sony SXRD tv? Would it equal the pics we have from HD cable which I understand is not 1080p? (Cox Cable, Fairfax, VA -- if it makes a difference)

No, it wouldn't, IMHO. I have a Sony 60" SXRD set (XBR2), an Oppo upsampling DVD player, and a set top box feeding a 1080i HD signal. While the DVD's look good, they are no match for a true (well executed) native HD signal.

But none of the HD-DVD players has what I think it takes as of now, so I'm sticking with the upsampled standard-def DVD's. While not "as good" they are certainly very good/good enough. I think the players need another generation to get it right.

Another question: I started doing some reading on this subject today and read that the tv will do upsampling. Does a DVD player which is capable of upsampling enhance the upsampling done by the tv? Or is the upsampling done by the tv enough? Well, I assume you think the DVD player enhances it as you are using both.

I appreciate answers from both of you.

Blah... every time I go to buy one I realize two things:
1) I cannot rip them to my media server
2) it'll all be downloadable soon enough

I know I'm kinda bleeding edge like that, but I really think HD-DVD/Bluray is a stopgap.

Or is the upsampling done by the tv enough? Well, I assume you think the DVD player enhances it as you are using both..

That's the magic question, and it's just a matter of what has better upsampling software

I can feed almost anything from the DVD player (iirc) - 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p. In every case, except the 1080p, the set's DRC engine will do the final upsampling to 1080p. As long as the player is connected via an HDMI cable, everything is the digital domain, and it's a matter of dueling software.

I can see a theoretical answer that you want to pass either 480i or 1080p, so that only one set of upsampling takes place, but you never know. I've yet to fully test it myself, but I've read a few reviews that say my Oppo player has a very good upsampling engine. Then again, the XBR is Sony's flagship, and I think the DRC is different than the standard SXRD sets.

Keep it all digital, and then you'll have to experiment. With my player, it's relatively easy - maybe I'll try it out soon, but the results don't really apply to anyone with any different specific hardware.

While not "as good" they are certainly very good/good enough. I think the players need another generation to get it right.

Excellent advice - a good upscaling DVD player such as the Oppo 981HD will be a perfect stopgap for you until BD and HD-DVD resolves itself.

I appreciate your input. I was hoping for a simple answer.

I read a good review of your DVD player on Consumer Reports, but it did say that it is a more expensive standard DVD player and that with the price of HD players coming down, we might want to choose an HD player. I do think that HD will win over Bluray because the price is falling faster and price usually wins.

I guess I will sleep on it.

I bought the $399 PS3 to use as a Blu-Ray player. It works great by the way. You need to buy the bluetooth dvd remote for about $25 but that's the only add-on. (Strictly speaking, you don't *need* it, but it makes it easier to use as a dvd/bd player.) The disks load very quickly and Planet Earth looks spectacular on my 1080p monitor. For some of the scenes, I wish I had a bigger monitor. I don't even own any games for it, and don't have any plans to buy any.

The combo units that play both HD and BD are still pretty expensive. The last gen wasn't very good but there's supposed to be a new one coming out soon that's gotten pretty good reviews. (I posted links to a decent review in another thread.)

What that means is that everybody else can now safely invest in HD-DVD since I also owned Beta and Beta Hi-Fi VCRs. I guess you're all lucky I didn't pick HD-DVD if player price is the most important factor in your purchase decision. :)

-David

Thank you. I suspected that was the case. One more thing, if we have a standard DVD and a player that upgrades (can't think of a good word) the signal to 1080p, how good would the picture be on a 60" Sony SXRD tv? Would it equal the pics we have from HD cable which I understand is not 1080p? (Cox Cable, Fairfax, VA -- if it makes a difference)A good upscaling (not upsampling) DVD player will give a cleaner image than a non-upscaling DVD player, but it will not provide high-def resolution. It's simple math: a standard definition DVD frame contains 720 pixels horizontally and 480 pixels vertically, for a total of 345,600 pixels per frame. A 1080p frame contains 1,920 pixels horizontally by 1,080 pixels vertically, for a total of 2,073,600 pixels per frame, or 6 times more information. An upscaling DVD player interpolates between adjacent pixels to create a 1,920 x 1,080 pixel frame, which makes everything look clearer. However, it cannot create information that ws not there. Incidentally, I'd be surprised if your cable HD was 1080p. Virtually all cable and satellite HD is 1080i -- that's the same frame resolution, but divided up between two fields with interlaced lines (that's what the "i" in 1080i stands for), each containing half the information of the frame.

Another question: I started doing some reading on this subject today and read that the tv will do upsampling. Does a DVD player which is capable of upsampling enhance the upsampling done by the tv? Or is the upsampling done by the tv enough? Well, I assume you think the DVD player enhances it as you are using both.The answer is: it depends. Some DVD players do an extraordinarily good job at upscaling, some are not so good. Similarly, some TVs upscale better than others. It depends on the combination of the player and the TV.

Excellent advice - a good upscaling DVD player such as the Oppo 981HD will be a perfect stopgap for you until BD and HD-DVD resolves itself.However, it doesn't look like the BluRay vs. HD war is going to resolve itself any time soon. However, if you shop carefully, you can find an HD DVD player for well under $200, and close to (and perhaps even better than) the price of a good upscaling standard definition DVD. I have a Sony BluRay player which cost me around $465. Because some movies I'd like to see are released in HD only, I also bought a Toshiba A3 HD DVD player from Tigerdirect for $169.

I bought a Panasonic upconversion DVD player (DVD-S52) for around $60. It requires a HDMI connection to output 1080i. With component video connection it only outputs a 720i. We also bought a PS3 which at $500 a year ago was a great deal and it does 1080p. Fortunately the Dish Network DVR only need Component video connection. There are not much equipment and content for 1080p yet.

So buy a TV with as many HDMI input ports as you can.

So buy a TV with as many HDMI input ports as you can.You can also buy an HDMI switch. My TV has 3 HDMI inputs, but I've got the BluRay DVD player, the HD DVD player, the satellite box, my computer and my HDV camcorder. I picked up an inexpensive HDMI switch (around $90 from buy.com). It comes with a remote control, so I just added it to the devices controlled by my universal remote and it automatically switches between devices.

You can also buy an HDMI switch. My TV has 3 HDMI inputs, but I've got the BluRay DVD player, the HD DVD player, the satellite box, my computer and my HDV camcorder. I picked up an inexpensive HDMI switch (around $90 from buy.com). It comes with a remote control, so I just added it to the devices controlled by my universal remote and it automatically switches between devices.

Where did you find the 1366x768 driver for Windows? I have the proper DVI/HDMI connection but can't find a monitor driver for that resolution.:mad:

Where did you find the 1366x768 driver for Windows? I have the proper DVI/HDMI connection but can't find a monitor driver for that resolution.:mad:I'm not sure what you mean. I use my laptop in its docking station. When I run through the DVI connector (I have a DVI to HDMI cable), the built-in graphics card can output 1920 x 1080 at 60 Hz, i.e. 1080p.

There are not much equipment and content for 1080p yet.All high-def DVDs are 1080p. Toshiba's lower-end HD DVD players, for example the A3 that I bought, is 1080i, though their higher-end players are 1080p. My Sony BluRay DVD player is 1080p, as is my laptop.

I'm not sure what you mean. I use my laptop in its docking station. When I run through the DVI connector (I have a DVI to HDMI cable), the built-in graphics card can output 1920 x 1080 at 60 Hz, i.e. 1080p.

I am using a 5 years old Thinkpad A31. May be that is why. I am also using a DVI-HDMI cable thru the docking station. I read somewhere that WindowsXP Multimedia Edition has the correct drivers for 720p and 1080p resolution monitors.

All high-def DVDs are 1080p. Toshiba's lower-end HD DVD players, for example the A3 that I bought, is 1080i, though their higher-end players are 1080p. My Sony BluRay DVD player is 1080p, as is my laptop.

The only 1080p device we have is the PS3. All the other pieces including the TV are 1080i/720p. That Toshiba A3 seemed interesting to me as the PS3 frequently gets moved by the kids.

I am using a 5 years old Thinkpad A31. May be that is why. I am also using a DVI-HDMI cable thru the docking station. I read somewhere that WindowsXP Multimedia Edition has the correct drivers for 720p and 1080p resolution monitors.Ah, I see. Yes, your laptop may be too old. I'm unfamiliar with Multimedia Edition but, though I'm running Vista, I don't see any reason why XP wouldn't support 1080p. Maximum monitor resolution supported is a function of the graphics card (and, presumably, the card's driver).

The only 1080p device we have is the PS3. All the other pieces including the TV are 1080i/720p. That Toshiba A3 seemed interesting to me as the PS3 frequently gets moved by the kids.I understand that Walmart was selling the A2 at the beginning of the month for $99. I suspect if you keep an eye out, you'll find a good sale. Remember that the Toshiba A2 and A3 are HD DVD, only, and the PS3 is BluRay, only. You won't be able to play BluRay on the Toshiba or HD DVD on the PS3.

Ah, I see. Yes, your laptop may be too old. I'm unfamiliar with Multimedia Edition but, though I'm running Vista, I don't see any reason why XP wouldn't support 1080p. Maximum monitor resolution supported is a function of the graphics card (and, presumably, the card's driver).


It's not XP or Vista, it's the graphics driver. If you have an ATI or NV graphics chip, the unified driver's control panel should let you pick any supported tv/monitor resolution easily, provided the GPU supports it. On my old laptop, with an old ATI chip, it's under "displays" in the ATI control panel. (You would select TV as the output and then pick one of the tv resolutions, if it doesn't auto-detect the correct resolution from the tv/monitor.)

I have no idea what the embedded graphics drivers support, especially for older embedded GPUs. The newer ones probably have something similar. (put your viao SZ in stamina mode so it's using the onboard graphics chip and see what the display control panel looks like. Maybe Sony mucked with it, so it manages both the onboard chip and the NV chip?)

-David

It's not XP or Vista, it's the graphics driver. If you have an ATI or NV graphics chip, the unified driver's control panel should let you pick any supported tv/monitor resolution easily, provided the GPU supports it. On my old laptop, with an old ATI chip, it's under "displays" in the ATI control panel. (You would select TV as the output and then pick one of the tv resolutions, if it doesn't auto-detect the correct resolution from the tv/monitor.)

I have no idea what the embedded graphics drivers support, especially for older embedded GPUs. The newer ones probably have something similar. (put your viao SZ in stamina mode so it's using the onboard graphics chip and see what the display control panel looks like. Maybe Sony mucked with it, so it manages both the onboard chip and the NV chip?)

-DavidThanks, but I think you're confusing me with SJUAMMF -- my Vaio does 1920 x 1080 just fine.

Does it make sense for me to install a Bluray player on a 1080i TV?

Will the Bluray DVDs look significantly better than standard DVDs or than an upconverting DVD player?

Does it make sense for me to install a Bluray player on a 1080i TV?

Will the Bluray DVDs look significantly better than standard DVDs or than an upconverting DVD player?
Yes, they will.

Does it make sense for me to install a Bluray player on a 1080i TV?

Will the Bluray DVDs look significantly better than standard DVDs or than an upconverting DVD player?
One of the biggest advantages to HD-DVD and Bluray over current DVDs is the audio. The video does look much better, but it isn't as big a difference as VHS to DVD in most cases. With the audio, OTOH, there is a huge difference if you either a) have a receiver that can decode the new higher quality audio or b) have a player that can decode them and send them to the receiver as PCM streams.

While the resolution of HD and BluRay (as well as HDTV) are superior to DVD... but what really makes the difference, especially on smaller displays (anything other than front projection), is the wider colorspace. The vivid, brighter colors and expanded contrast ratio give a much deeper appearance to HD video.

I'm currently one who supports both formats. I use a Toshiba A2 for HD-DVD (replaced an A1 when Walmart had the 2 for $99) and a Samsung BDP1000 for BluRay. I hope to replace the BDP1000 w/ a newer player or PS3 due to its lack of Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master support. I use a 100" front-projection system w/ a 720p projector, so the lower resolution of DVD is more apparent to me than most.

I also feel 1080p is mostly marketing and offers minimal gains in image quality over 720p and 1080i... especially since 1080i/60 offers the exact same resolution as 1080p/30. The only instances I can see even a minor advantage is 1080p/24 which is the same frame rate film is shot in, but telecine along with pull down frame rendering has become so advanced that even that minimal difference is usually negated. More and more feature films are also being shot on HD video as opposed to film, and in 30 and 60 fps as opposed to 24 fps.

Where did you find the 1366x768 driver for Windows? I have the proper DVI/HDMI connection but can't find a monitor driver for that resolution.:mad:

I have a cheap compaq presiaro. it has that setting with an ati built in card. rt click screen to properties>settings>advanced>adaptor>list all modes. if not there, download the newest driver. have acheap ACER 360 down stairs with an nVida card(chip). it also has 1360x768 drivers.

Powerstrip (http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/ps.shtm) is tailor made for getting the resolution you need out of your video card/making video cards work with non-PC oriented display devices/etc.

1080p IS largely marketing. If the device is 1080 capable, focus on the quality rather than the resolution. While I disagree that the leap from DVD to HD-DVD/Blu-ray isn't as significant as VHS to DVD, I DO think that it's much harder to discern 720p vs. 1080i much less 1080i vs. 1080p.

But high-def is definitely a quantum leap. Last night, Return of the Jedi was on in HD. Versus the DVD, it was jaw-dropping how much more detail could be seen, how much better/deeper the color was, and how much more depth and life the picture had. It was literally like watching a new movie. Same goes for the Harry Potter movies I just got on Blu-Ray.... and Blade Runner... and... well, you get the picture.

BD definitely makes a difference on the laptop as well. I just got a 12"er that for some reason includes a standard 12mm optical drive vs. the normal 9.5mm superslim drives that are in smaller notebooks. I immediately swapped the drive for a laptop BD-RE. Even on that small a screen... HUGE difference.

The only 1080p device we have is the PS3. All the other pieces including the TV are 1080i/720p. That Toshiba A3 seemed interesting to me as the PS3 frequently gets moved by the kids.

If you wait a bit, LG's dual format players should drop below $500. That's what I'm waiting for. Their combo Blu-Ray writer/HD-DVD reader drive just dropped below $400. At that price, it's worth buying IMO.

I also feel 1080p is mostly marketing and offers minimal gains in image quality over 720p and 1080i... especially since 1080i/60 offers the exact same resolution as 1080p/30. The only instances I can see even a minor advantage is 1080p/24 which is the same frame rate film is shot in, but telecine along with pull down frame rendering has become so advanced that even that minimal difference is usually negated. More and more feature films are also being shot on HD video as opposed to film, and in 30 and 60 fps as opposed to 24 fps.

We're looking a Canon HV20 (1,080i/60p) which can also shoot in 1,080p/24. Some interesting observations in this review (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV20-Camcorder-Review/Performance.htm) regarding "p" vs "i" - yes I know 60p is significantly different to 24p - however interesting reading.

My observations of 1,080i/60 v 1,080p/60 from an Oppo upscaling DVD are that I would need to A/B 2 screens, of at least 45" size, to tell the difference. Of course YMMV with a true 1,080p source...

I am eyeing the new Samsung BD-UP5000. It can play both Blue Ray and HD-DVDs. It also has state of the art HQV Reon processor for upscaling standard DVDs (as well as processing the image for the HD discs). I am kind of hoping that it will equal my Denon 5910 for standard DVDs.

Then when ordering from Netflix, I can order whatever HD format is available for the movie of choice.

I am eyeing the new Samsung BD-UP5000. It can play both Blue Ray and HD-DVDs. It also has state of the art HQV Reon processor for upscaling standard DVDs (as well as processing the image for the HD discs). I am kind of hoping that it will equal my Denon 5910 for standard DVDs.

Then when ordering from Netflix, I can order whatever HD format is available for the movie of choice.

If it doesn't, find one of the last-gen Toshiba HD-A1s for dirt cheap and use that. It does an excellent job. The XA2 is even better but likely a bit more expensive. I was astonished how good it was; too bad the thing is SO slow in startup.

Review (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=205128&postcount=8).

I would stay away from the A1... not because of picture quality, features, or durability... but because it takes FOREVER to load a disc. I had one for a little over a year and the load times slowly (no pun) became more and more annoying. I replaced it with an A2 when they were $100 at WalMart and have been much happier. An XA2 would be great, but is pricey... the BD-UP5000 may not cost much more and also has Reon and BluRay support.

(January 4, 2008 - Burbank, CA) - In response to consumer demand, Warner Bros. Entertainment will release its high-definition DVD titles exclusively in the
Blu-ray disc format beginning later this year, it was announced today by Barry
Meyer, Chairman & CEO, Warner Bros. and Kevin Tsujihara, President, Warner
Bros. Home Entertainment Group.

reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSN0432340820080104)

Could be a standing 8 count for HD-DVD

gotta hand it to WB, though, wait till after the holiday season to let consumers know which side of the fence you were going to fall on

Could be a standing 8 count for HD-DVD


I read about that on engadget. I bought into the BD camp with my PS3 purchase, but I don't believe this will even come close to settling the format wars. Two other studios are in the HD-DVD only camp, aren't they? Universal and somebody else if I'm remembering correctly.

The real answer, IMO, is that it won't matter eventually as universal players eventually replace everything else. There are some now, but they are too expensive for the mass consumer market right now. They will become much cheaper.

Even today, if you already have a PS3 or BD player, it doesn't cost much to add an HD-DVD player.

In the really long term, I wonder how much any of this matters. Eventually all this media will be obsolete. Non-volatile forms of memory and/or bandwidth will become so cheap it will replace everything else. Or not. :)

BTW, as I recall, WB said they were seeing a 60/40 split of BD/HD-DVD sales in the US. The UK was more heavily weighted towards BD.

-David

Even today, if you already have a PS3 or BD player, it doesn't cost much to add an HD-DVD player.

That's exactly what I did. I have a BluRay player and recently added a Toshiba A3 HD DVD. Now I have 3 DVD players -- the two high-def machines and one I brought back from China for playing Region 6 DVDs.

(January 4, 2008 - Burbank, CA) - In response to consumer demand, Warner Bros. Entertainment will release its high-definition DVD titles exclusively in the
Blu-ray disc format beginning later this year, it was announced today by Barry
Meyer, Chairman & CEO, Warner Bros. and Kevin Tsujihara, President, Warner
Bros. Home Entertainment Group.

reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSN0432340820080104)

Could be a standing 8 count for HD-DVD

gotta hand it to WB, though, wait till after the holiday season to let consumers know which side of the fence you were going to fall on

No, this makes it 1:1 since bd lost paramount to Hddvd.

This war sucks.

When I read about this yesterday on WSJ.com, I went down to Costco and got a Blue-Ray player within two hours. The format war has sucked, but I think this is the next-to-last nail in HD-DVD's coffin. If enough folks like me feel that a 5 to 2 count is sufficient to get them off the fence, there's your final nail right there.

On the other hand, the fence-sitting has lead to at least one inadvertant benefit: I didn't end up buying a blue-ray player before the Final Standard Profile (1.1) players came out.

No, this makes it 1:1 since bd lost paramount to Hddvd.

This war sucks.

I'm pretty sure Paramount going HD exclusive made it closer to 1:1 and this tips the favor back towards BD. I own both (BDP1000 and HD-A2) but think HD was the better spec (requiring dual decoders, persistent storage, and high-res audio formats from the beginning). My first-gen HD player (the HD-A1) did everything right, even if the load times were horrible. My first-gen BD player works more smoothly and is a more refined product, but key features are missing. I replaced the A1 w/ an A2 when they were $99 at WalMart. I want a 3rd or 4th gen BD player as well, but the higher prices and still incomplete spec have me holding out for one of three things... one format, dual-players, or a complete spec player around $200.

This war sucks.

Amen!
Im done with it...I'm a gadget freak and an lover of AV gear, but I refuse to buy either. Give me a downloadable format that I can do with as I please... Heck I might even settle for something DRM'ed a la iTunes or Amazon...

I cannot fathom why anyone though they could release two formats and pit the consumers against each other...never mind, just answered my own question...

I cannot fathom why anyone though they could release two formats and pit the consumers against each other...never mind, just answered my own question...

Beta vs VHS
CDMA vs GSM
PC vs Mac
Dolby vs DTS
RDRAM vs DDR
...

:eek:

Personally, I don't understand why the studios (except Sony) are choosing one format over the other. Even WB said that the sales split was 60/40 BD/HD-DVD in the US. They must be bidding on incentives to win them over. I could see it if it were 80/20 or something like that.

-David

Personally, I don't understand why the studios (except Sony) are choosing one format over the other.

I think WB must realize by now that they'd better go with the stronger player in hope of making the weaker player die. The sooner that happens, the sooner they will gain confidence from the consumer and allow for sales of players (and thus content) to take off. Consumers won't be motivated to replace their DVD libraries before they have certainty that the format they invest in will stick around. Since the chances of all studios backing both formats at this point is pretty slim, I can see why WB was ready to take the more painful approach and push for a victor. And the cash doesn't hurt either. :)

I think WB must realize by now that they'd better go with the stronger player in hope of making the weaker player die. The sooner that happens, the sooner they will gain confidence from the consumer and allow for sales of players (and thus content) to take off. Consumers won't be motivated to replace their DVD libraries before they have certainty that the format they invest in will stick around. Since the chances of all studios backing both formats at this point is pretty slim, I can see why WB was ready to take the more painful approach and push for a victor. And the cash doesn't hurt either. :)

That's basically what they said, but they denied that cash was involved. I'm sure there's cross-promotional money available from either camp.

-David

I cannot fathom why anyone though they could release two formats and pit the consumers against each other...never mind, just answered my own question...

Pretty simple, really. At standards body meetings (e.g. IEEE, ISO, etc.), there is more politicking than actual discussion of technologies and implementations. Every interested companies are vying for their technologies to be included in the standard. When you consider the stake is the billions of dollars in licensing royalty that will be collected in the future, wouldn't you too?

In some instances, the disagreeing parties created their own standards, like what happened in BluRay vs HD-DVD. In other cases, the standard can end up in a stalemate for who knows how long. For example, the IEEE 802.11n standard has been in "draft" state for 2-3 years already, without end in sight. There are interoperability and performance issues if your equipments do not use the chipset from the same company like Atheros, Broadcom, etc.

In the BluRay vs HD-DVD war, consumers do have a choice. They can choose either, both or neither of the formats. They will not get a dime from me until there is a dual-format player or if they reconcile their differences. There is already a combo BluRay/HD-DVD drive for the PC. A player should not be far behind.

There's already 2 or 3 universal players. LG has 2, Samsung was supposed to release one in December, not sure if that happened or not. There may be others that I'm not aware of.

Since LG makes the computer combo drive that's currently available, it's not surprising that they sell universal players.

The Samsung universal player got pretty good reviews. But it's still cheaper to buy a PS3 and a separate HD-DVD player.

-David

Thanks for the tip; I will be sure to check them out.

You are right about the dual format players costing more than individual players though. It makes these players far less appealing. That's a pity.

Until dual players cost the same or only slightly more than 2 players, they'll be a tough sell. It's possible to get a seperate HD and Blu player for as low as $400 right now.

Something great I've discovered since getting a Tivo HD for Christmas (and already having an A2) is that I can transfer my Tivo HD recordings to my PC using TivoToGo and burn them to an HD-DVD compatible disc at full HD resolution on regular DVD-R media. The name of the format is "3x DVD" and it's basicly HD-DVD formatted content on regular DVD-R media. I can get around 60 minutes of HD on one 4.7gb DVD-R and around 120 minutes on one 8.5gb dual-layer DVD-R. This will be great for shows like Lost and others (especially when the writers strike ends).

There is a similar format for BluRay called AVCHD but it requires a length re-encode from MPEG2 to MPEG4/AVC... I was hoping this would allow more to be fit on each disc, but the requirements of either 1440x1080p or 1920x1080p means you can actually fit less on each disc. If AVCHD allowed 1280x720 at around 15000kbps you could fit 2hr of HD content on a single 4.7gb DVD-R.

Recent sales figures have BR disks selling much faster than HD-DVD disks, but HD-DVD disks should see a boost as people who recently bought cheap players start buying movies. That said I think this "war" will go on for quite some time and may never end. I see it going the same way as the most recent format war, DVD-R vs DVD+R. Anyone remember that one? It was a minor blip because by the time there was mass adoption of DVD burning there were cheap dual format drives available. Hopefully we'll see the same thing in this HD optical media war... Or maybe we should all hope for HVDs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_disk) to take off, they have a storage of 3.9TB and transfer rate of 1GBit/sec.

There's already 2 or 3 universal players. LG has 2, Samsung was supposed to release one in December, not sure if that happened or not. There may be others that I'm not aware of.

Since LG makes the computer combo drive that's currently available, it's not surprising that they sell universal players.

The Samsung universal player got pretty good reviews. But it's still cheaper to buy a PS3 and a separate HD-DVD player.

-DavidFrom what I understand, the universal players don't fully implement the entire HD DVD spec. Yes, they'll play HD DVDs, but they don't support all the features.

There is a similar format for BluRay called AVCHD but it requires a length re-encode from MPEG2 to MPEG4/AVC... I was hoping this would allow more to be fit on each disc, but the requirements of either 1440x1080p or 1920x1080p means you can actually fit less on each disc. If AVCHD allowed 1280x720 at around 15000kbps you could fit 2hr of HD content on a single 4.7gb DVD-R.Okay, a little clarity here. You're mixing up lots of separate concepts.

BluRay is a DVD format, AVCHD is a compression codec. The spec for the BluRay foormat supports both mpeg2 AND mpeg4 AVC (H.264) codecs. Mpeg4 is a somewhat more efficient compression codec than mpeg2, so it allows storing slightly more video at the same quality with the same amount of data.

1920 x 1080p means progressive scan at the full resolution of HD, as provided by the spec. 1440 x 1080 is the physical resolution of HDV, a consumer/prosumer HD format used in cameras. The pixel aspect ratio (not overall aspect ratio) for HDV is 1.33:1, unlike HD, which is 1:1. This means that a 1440 x 1080 HDV image will occupy the same 16:9 aspect ratio as an HD television -- either the television or the camera will have to scale the image so that the 1440 horizontal pixels are spread correctly over the 1920 display pixels. AVCHD, unlike HDV, supports 1920 x 1080. However, AVCHD results in other problems, primarily because manufacturers have arbitrarily limited the bandwidth to between 13 and 17 mbps (the spec allows up to 25), resulting in significant compression artifacts. Many BluRay players can read HDV video data (though the spec doesn't permit using it as a codec for BluRay disks).

The 3X DVD disk you were referring to is an HD DVD-spec disk burned to a standard DVD. HD DVD players will, indeed, play them. Some, but not all, BluRay players support doing something similar -- they will play an mpeg2 or mpeg4 file on a standard data DVD as a video file. They will not, however, let you burn a BluRay spec DVD to a standard DVD. Unlike HD DVD, there are relatively inexpensive BluRay burners out there -- the cheapest I've seen is $399 (and a BD-R disk is about $25). However, not all BluRay players will let you play a BD-R or BD-RE video disk -- many will only support BD-ROM, i.e. commercially-prepared glass-mastered disks.

From what I understand, the universal players don't fully implement the entire HD DVD spec. Yes, they'll play HD DVDs, but they don't support all the features.

The first one, the original LG was flawed in that way, but I think the two newer ones do everything.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hd-dvd-bluray/2671/lgs-super-hero.html

A firmware upgrade will support the BD 1.1 profile, and it supports 1080p/60 and 1080p/24.

I'll have to dig up the Samsung review later. But as I recall, it also did everything including the current profiles for both formats. (Also some of it by a firmware upgrade.)

But, yes, these things are still in their infancy. They have to get better and come down in price to make a dent in the marketplace. Right now, they are at early adapter prices. But since the BD and HD-DVD players are lower in price, there isn't much of a market for these unless you want to benefit by the single cable(s) you would need instead of possibly having to add hdmi switching to your current setup if you are already using all available ports.

-David

Okay, a little clarity here. You're mixing up lots of separate concepts...

Ulead MovieFactory 6 will indeed allow you AVCHD disk within the BluRay spec that will play in a BluRay player on regular DVD-R media in a very similar manner as 3x DVD for HD-DVD players. It does, however, limit you to either 1920x1080p or 1440x1080p resolutions at bitrates starting at 12500kbps. I understand rectangular pixels and how they apply to aspect ratio (just as DVD uses 720x480 resolution anamorphicaly scaled to either 16:9 or 4:3).

My main point is that if the AVCHD discs authored for BDP use would allow lower HD resolutions (specifically 1280x720) along with AVCHD (MPEG4) compression it would be possible to fit 2+ hours of HD content on a single layer 4.7gb DVD-R. The same holds for 3x DVD and seems to actually be possible as part of the spec, though the mainstream software (specifically MovieFactory 6 and Nero 8 Ultra) only support burning 3x DVD with MPEG2 encoding.

Also, it's not as much the price of the BD burners that are keeping me from going that route. It's more the cost of the media. Since the path I'm taking from Tivo HD to a disc format for HD or Blu player consumption will be mainly for HDTV content in chunks ranging from 30 - 60 minutes minus commercials (so actually 22-44 minute chunks), it's much more economical to burn them to DVD-R even if only 1-3 episodes of any given show will fit on a disc. It is alot of discs to keep up with, but the alternative is an expensive 1tb+ media server or equally expensive higher-capacity optical storage. When the BD-R media hits $5/disc and allows me to record 5-10 hours of Tivo HD extracted HD content on to a disc, then I'll jump on that bandwagon.

Ulead MovieFactory 6 will indeed allow you AVCHD disk within the BluRay spec that will play in a BluRay player on regular DVD-R media in a very similar manner as 3x DVD for HD-DVD players. It does, however, limit you to either 1920x1080p or 1440x1080p resolutions at bitrates starting at 12500kbps. I understand rectangular pixels and how they apply to aspect ratio (just as DVD uses 720x480 resolution anamorphicaly scaled to either 16:9 or 4:3).Yes it will. And many, if not most, BluRay players won't play them.

My main point is that if the AVCHD discs authored for BDP use would allow lower HD resolutions (specifically 1280x720) along with AVCHD (MPEG4) compression it would be possible to fit 2+ hours of HD content on a single layer 4.7gb DVD-R. The same holds for 3x DVD and seems to actually be possible as part of the spec, though the mainstream software (specifically MovieFactory 6 and Nero 8 Ultra) only support burning 3x DVD with MPEG2 encoding.You can do that now. Transcode your HD video to whatever you want and then burn it in Movie Factory. I did exactly that this weekend, though in the other direction -- I transcoded from Adobe Premiere Pro CS3. I had 53 minutes of HD material and wanted to produce the best video quality I could. I adjusted transcode rates to produce an mpeg file that was slightly under the maximum size that could be stored on a dual-layer standard DVD. Then I authored an HD DVD using Movie Factory. I could have gone the other way -- set the lowest bit rate supported by the spec and added a lot more material.

I'll have to dig up the Samsung review later.

Here it is:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdtvs/2568/samsungs-bluhd-combo-player-bd-up5000.html

-David

Yes it will. And many, if not most, BluRay players won't play them.

My BDP1000 can play them fine, but with the resolution limitations of AVCHD on DVD, it actually takes up more space in AVCHD than in MPEG2 on 3x DVD. I really wish either MovieFactory or Nero would let you either transcode to AVC/VC-1 and burn on in one step, or at least transcode to AVC/VC-1 externally and then burn to 3x DVD. 2+ hours in 720p on a 4.7gb DVD-R compatible with either HD-DVD or BD players is my main goal.

My BDP1000 can play them fine, but with the resolution limitations of AVCHD on DVD, it actually takes up more space in AVCHD than in MPEG2 on 3x DVD. I really wish either MovieFactory or Nero would let you either transcode to AVC/VC-1 and burn on in one step, or at least transcode to AVC/VC-1 externally and then burn to 3x DVD. 2+ hours in 720p on a 4.7gb DVD-R compatible with either HD-DVD or BD players is my main goal.
My BDS-300 won't play BD-Rs or standard definition BluRay formate disks. I recall seeing a chart somewhere for existing BluRay players -- only a few could handle video disks in anything other than BD-ROM.

t is alot of discs to keep up with, but the alternative is an expensive 1tb+ media server or equally expensive higher-capacity optical storage. When the BD-R media hits $5/disc and allows me to record 5-10 hours of Tivo HD extracted HD content on to a disc, then I'll jump on that bandwagon.
I don't know, a TB can be had for a few hundred $'s these days. Hard drive storage is dirt cheap these days.

t is alot of discs to keep up with, but the alternative is an expensive 1tb+ media server or equally expensive higher-capacity optical storage. When the BD-R media hits $5/disc and allows me to record 5-10 hours of Tivo HD extracted HD content on to a disc, then I'll jump on that bandwagon.
I don't know, a TB can be had for a few hundred $'s these days. Hard drive storage is dirt cheap these days.

Another nail hangs over HD-DVD's coffin

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/01/08/hd-dvd-declared-dead


A REPORT in the Financial Times declares that Paramount has a clause in its HD-DVD exclusivity contract allowing the company to bail from HD-DVD if Warner defected to Blu-ray, and that Paramount is 'poised' to do so.

...



-David

I told myself when I bought my refurb A1 for $250 that I was buying a good upconverting DVD player and if HD lost out I'd still have that. Now I'm on my $99 A2 and even if HD fades away, I see it as a $99 player for playback of backed up Tivo HD burned to DVD-R in 3x DVD format.

Even if the Paramount rumors are true, I'll still keep my A2 in my system until Universal jumps ship (2 of my favorite HD discs are Apollo 13 and Serenity) and until some of Warner HD exclusives (Batman Begins) are released on BluRay.

Porn Coming to Blu-ray Thanks to PS3 Owners
Digital Playground announces 8 new titles for shipment in February

Digital Playground, the pornography studio which recently said it would be shipping Blu-ray discs despite initially choosing HD DVD, has announced eight titles it will be releasing on Blu-ray in February.

Toshiba Launches HD-DVD Player Fire Sale

http://www.dailytech.com/Toshiba+Launches+HD+DVD+Player+Fire+Sale/article10318.htm

A3 for $139, A30 for $179 (Amazon and Tiger Direct) with reports of even cheaper prices at warehouse stores.

I looked at Amazon and the prices were about $5 less than what the article reported. Amazon says the list price of the A3 is $149.99, so it's really only about $15 off the list price. Is that a fire sale? Seems like just another dramatic headline.

-David

I guess the $149/$199 MSRPs are the new lower MSRPs.

http://www.allthingshidef.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=3C644C50F0DA47FDA581C56C5FDF5FC7&nm=Hi-Def+News&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=F1C4809704EB47508F61CD3909BD6A42

What were the street prices of these units before the price cut?

-David

Toshiba Launches HD-DVD Player Fire Sale



Thats almost tempting... thats about the price point that I think is reasonable but I still cannot rip them effectively...

If/when they hit $99 (like the A2 before Thanksgiving) I think anyone with a Tivo S3 or HD should pick one up as a means to play their HD content backed up to an optical medium. 1hr of HD content on a single-layer DVD-/+R and 2 hours on a dual-layer DVD-/+R is pretty impressive and the Tivo records in MPEG2 making it very easy to delet comercials w/ VideoRedo and burn right to an HD-DVD compliant DVD-/+R with MovieFactor 6.

I was thinking that this format war would continue for years, but it looks like it's just about over. I mean if HD-DVD isn't going to have a single studio using their format can't we call this one? I'm not going to run out a buy a BluRay player or anything, but you would be hard pressed to get me to dedicate an HDMI port to an HD-DVD player at any price at this point.

I mean if HD-DVD isn't going to have a single studio using their format can't we call this one?

For the record, there are still three studios that remain committed to Red: Universal, Paramount, & Dreamworks. I consider news of Red's demise very premature or wishful thinking on the part of Blu fanboys and Michael Bay.

For the record, there are still three studios that remain committed to Red: Universal, Paramount, & Dreamworks. I consider news of Red's demise very premature or wishful thinking on the part of Blu fanboys and Michael Bay.
Universal and Paramount are reportedly jumping ship by March. With Warner Bros. and now the porno industry moving their weight behind BluRay it seems pretty clear. In the short term 75% of HD movies released will be BluRay only, and in the future that will be more pronounced.

I have the HD-DVD add on for my 360 and I've been reasonably happy with it, though the fact that it can't output Dolby True HD or DTS HD sucks big time. I don't currently have any device that plays BluRay. I got it cheap and got a few great movies free with the purchase so I don't feel a huge loss on it. When (OK "if" though it seems pretty certain) Universal and Paramount go BluRay only I hope we will finally see some full-feature, reasonably priced Blu players.

For the record, there are still three studios that remain committed to Red: Universal, Paramount, & Dreamworks.

That's really just two studios, unless you want to also count New Line and other names that are part of the big studios as separate names in the BD camp.

However, I agree with you that the war isn't over yet.

-David

If/when they hit $99 (like the A2 before Thanksgiving) I think anyone with a Tivo S3 or HD should pick one up as a means to play their HD content backed up to an optical medium. 1hr of HD content on a single-layer DVD-/+R and 2 hours on a dual-layer DVD-/+R is pretty impressive and the Tivo records in MPEG2 making it very easy to delet comercials w/ VideoRedo and burn right to an HD-DVD compliant DVD-/+R with MovieFactor 6.

How do you figure that? The cheap players are not recorders. You would also need an HD recorder or drive to do that, if the software allows you to do it or you can figure out other ways to bypass the copy protection on anything flagged. (Yes, I know you can get around that if you are willing to do that.)

-David

How do you figure that? The cheap players are not recorders. You would also need an HD recorder or drive to do that, if the software allows you to do it or you can figure out other ways to bypass the copy protection on anything flagged. (Yes, I know you can get around that if you are willing to do that.)

-David

I think his point is that you wouldn't need an HD recorder, as you can play HD-DVD compliant recordings on conventional DVD-/+R media in HD-DVD players. From a prior post of his I believe he is doing just that today.

I think his point is that you wouldn't need an HD recorder, as you can play HD-DVD compliant recordings on conventional DVD-/+R media in HD-DVD players. From a prior post of his I believe he is doing just that today.

ok, I get it. He did say dvd+/-r.

Thanks.

-David

Toshiba Launches HD-DVD Player Fire Sale

http://www.dailytech.com/Toshiba+Launches+HD+DVD+Player+Fire+Sale/article10318.htm

A3 for $139, A30 for $179 (Amazon and Tiger Direct) with reports of even cheaper prices at warehouse stores.



For those who are Sam's Club and Costco members, the A3 is now down to $129. With the news of what really motivated Warner's move (http://gizmodo.com/344680/the-real-reason-warner-went-blu+ray), this war is coming down to lowballing vs. bribery...

I think his point is that you wouldn't need an HD recorder, as you can play HD-DVD compliant recordings on conventional DVD-/+R media in HD-DVD players. From a prior post of his I believe he is doing just that today.

Exactly... the HD-DVD spec allows you to record in HD format on regular 4.7gb and 8.5gb DVD-/+R discs... obviously with less capacity, but still 1 hour on a 4.7gb disc and 2 hours on a 8.5gb disc it is attractive for backing up Tivo HD files that are easily transferred using Tivo ToGo. Once a file is transfered to you computer, the entire process of removing commercials (automatically with Video ReDo) and starting the burn process (Using Ulead Movie Factory) takes around 15 minutes.

Toshiba Launches HD-DVD Player Fire Sale

http://www.dailytech.com/Toshiba+Launches+HD+DVD+Player+Fire+Sale/article10318.htm

A3 for $139, A30 for $179 (Amazon and Tiger Direct) with reports of even cheaper prices at warehouse stores.

I looked at Amazon and the prices were about $5 less than what the article reported. Amazon says the list price of the A3 is $149.99, so it's really only about $15 off the list price. Is that a fire sale? Seems like just another dramatic headline.

-David

I bought the Toshiba A30 from Amazon just before Christmas. Thanks to your alerting us of the price drop, Amazon is refunding $61.12 to me. Anyone else who made a recent purchase, at least you may be able to get some $ returned under price a price guarntee.

Apparently even Wal Mart has now bailed on HD-DVD, after several other retailer defections. Death seems to be imminent.

This all started with a news item in the Hollywood Reporter on Friday, but now it also seems to be picked up by the mainstream press. The Reuters article quotes a source at Toshiba.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080217/ap_on_bi_ge/japan_toshiba

Walmart's Defection: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080215/bs_nm/walmart_dvd_dc;_ylt=AsOWibdos8qfJun4P0YdxTlv24cA

Reuters: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080216/bs_nm/toshiba_hd_dvd_dc;_ylt=Aj_zuPjzOnXAsteTwvvzQ6mb.HQ A

Hollywood Reporter: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3ib77125d96b22e86027d0bfb0c25aa58d

-David

Yeah, it's pretty much over for Toshiba. They tried very hard to win the battle, but they lost.

They'll have a lot of explaining to do to people that invested in their format, and will essentially have to deal with no new content soon. People who got one for $125 have a nice cheap upconverting DVD player, but those that were early adopters spent $500 on the unit. And will probably never get access to more than the 125 titles released.

OTOH, will HD DVD only releases be rereleased in bluray?

OTOH, will HD DVD only releases be rereleased in bluray?

What do you think? :)

I would say that the answer is "eventually". If Toshiba makes the death announcement, it shouldn't be too long. If Toshiba tries to hang on, your guess is as good as mine. The studios may need to be released from their agreements. Or not, I suppose, if they already have ways of getting out written in to their contracts.

-David

OTOH, will HD DVD only releases be rereleased in bluray?

One of the arrangements for Universal for example, was that IF someone like Toshiba dropped the format, their exclusivity arrangement would END. It looks like TRANSFORMERS might already be queued up for Blu-Ray release.

Now, I don't know if they have to give the money back to Microsoft or anything like that, but be sure they are going to be releasing in BR. I'm looking for blu-ray stamping companies to invest in.

And, done - Universal to produce now in Blu-ray

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?sec_id=2&&article_ID=12118

Countdown till the first class action suits against Toshiba?

Countdown till the first class action suits against Toshiba?It's hard to imagine a basis for such a suit, at least up until now. However, for Toshiba and the retailers that continue to sell HD-DVD players, I would think there's substantial risk unless every unit sold carries a written disclaimer that the format is, for all intents and purposes, obsolete.

I bought the $399 PS3 to use as a Blu-Ray player.

You made smart move. Since Blue-ray is still evolving standard, those who buy before the standard is finalized will be irked as some features may be available...

http://dgiul.wordpress.com/2008/01/13/blu-rays-dirty-little-secret-future-compatibility/

Is it really worth upgrading from SD DVD to Blu-ray? I downloaded sample Quicktime videos from Apple at 480p, 720p, and 1080p and played them all full screen on my laptop (1920x1200). There is a dramatic difference in reading small text, such as in the credits, if I'm close enough to the screen, but the rest of the movies where there is not that kind of detail I don't honestly see a difference even when I watch closely and certainly not watching from a distance.

Is it really worth upgrading from SD DVD to Blu-ray? I downloaded sample Quicktime videos from Apple at 480p, 720p, and 1080p and played them all full screen on my laptop (1920x1200). There is a dramatic difference in reading small text, such as in the credits, if I'm close enough to the screen, but the rest of the movies where there is not that kind of detail I don't honestly see a difference even when I watch closely and certainly not watching from a distance.The answer, I think, is, "it depends."

First, on a relatively small HDTV, you may not see as much of a difference. However, the larger the screen, the more dramatic the potential of high def. You're not going to see much difference on your laptop screen.

Next, I've seen a number of both BluRay and HD DVD disks (I have both players). As with standard DVDs, there are good transfers and bad transfers. I've seen some that seem little better than a standard DVD. On the other hand, I've seen some truly spectacular transfers -- Phantom and Planet Earth are two that come to mind. When I went out and bought our HDTV and BluRay player, the first thing I showed Mrs. PTravel was Phantom. She, who is practically a Luddite when it comes to technology, immediately was taken the image she saw. She said, "This is really worth it!" (My secret plan worked! ;)).

Standard definition digital video (in the U.S.) is 720 x 480 pixels, for a total of 345,600 pixels. 1080p high-def is 1920 x 1080 pixels, for a total of 2,073,600 pixels. There is simply no comparison when a properly-transcoded high-def source is displayed on a well-adjusted, large high-def TV.

You're not going to see much difference on your laptop screen.

I don't think the laptop size is the problem because I'm so close to the screen it's roughly approximate to viewing a 15 foot screen from a distance of 10 feet, and the screen has enough pixels to display the highest video resolution.

Standard definition digital video (in the U.S.) is 720 x 480 pixels, for a total of 345,600 pixels. 1080p high-def is 1920 x 1080 pixels, for a total of 2,073,600 pixels.

The extra pixels make a huge difference for still photography. Not doubt about it. But what I find intersting is that it's not so much of a difference for moving images. It seems rather subtle, and there is no "wow" effect for me moving up to the high definition.

I don't think the laptop size is the problem because I'm so close to the screen it's roughly approximate to viewing a 15 foot screen from a distance of 10 feet, and the screen has enough pixels to display the highest video resolution.



The extra pixels make a huge difference for still photography. Not doubt about it. But what I find intersting is that it's not so much of a difference for moving images. It seems rather subtle, and there is no "wow" effect for me moving up to the high definition.All I can tell you is this: I have a 42" Toshiba Regza HDTV, and just bought another 37" Regza for the bedroom. The 42" Regza is a 1080p set, the smaller one a 720p.

The video source for our bigger Regza is a DirecTV HD DVR, as well as BluRay (1080p_ and HD-DVD (1080i) players, an HDV camcorder and my laptop.

The video source for the smaller Regza is a standard-definition DirectTivo, a standard-definition (not upconverting) DVD player and a pair of rabbit ears that let us receive high-def over-the-air broadcasts.

On both the larger 1080p set and the smaller 720p set, the difference between high-def and standard-def sources is very, very visible and not at all subtle. This is particularly true with respect to broadcast television and a well-transcoded BluRay disk.

I edit HDV on my laptop. When I'm viewing edited video on the laptop, I see a less dramatic difference between HDV (1440 x 1080i) and standard definition video (720 x 480i). However, the difference is obvious (and dramatic) when played on my HDTVs.

I'd suggest that you go to a good home theater store where the sets are properly adjusted and there is good high-def source available (not Circuit City or Best Buy, e.g.) and take a good look at HD. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

... I have a 42" Toshiba Regza HDTV...

I just noticed the price on that is only $1178 at Amazon. I'm fighting to keep my mouse away from the "Buy now with 1-click" button. :D

I just noticed the price on that is only $1178 at Amazon. I'm fighting to keep my mouse away from the "Buy now with 1-click" button. :DOoooh . . . good deal! I paid $1450 for mine just a few months ago. You won't be sorry. :)

Bump... HD DVDs are selling here for $7-9 but I wonder what will happen when the few who have the machines have bought and there are stacks left over.

I can get the XBox 360 drive for $50 (but don't have an xbox)...
HD DVD players are all gone now, unless I'm extremely lucky or go eBaying.
Apparently the reports on Xbox sound output and upconverting to 1080p are mixed.

Tech adopters:
Is it worth the hassle to get a HD DVD if I can get the movies for nix, just to haave an upconvertng regular DVD player?

Thanks!

Any of the Toshiba players are worth it as great upconverting players. If you can get discs for under $10, I'd stock up... especially on HD exclusive catalog titles that may be as much as a year away on Blu. Where is it you're finding HD discs for those prices?

Also, if/when you get an HD-Tivo, making HD backups on regular DVD-R discs is the easiest thing in the world... this is my main reason for holding on to my HD-A2 player since I already have Blu as well. BluRay has a standard for HD on regular DVD-R but it requires transcoding to AVC and only supports 1440x1080 or 1920x1080, not 1280x720, so the discs actually hold less than 1280x720 in MPEG2.

I picked up a Toshiba D3 from Costco the day after the Toshiba announcement. The player was $79, including the HDMI cable, so I simply could not resist any longer. It came with two HD movies from the Bourne series, and I'm getting five more free through the mail.

I'd been thinking about getting an upconverting player anyway, and I thought I could try out HD-DVD at the same time. Then when I saw the HDMI cable was included (for which some people pay more than $50) I succumbed.

It has been wonderful watching my standard DVDs on this player - the upconverting is unreal.

The only downside to this player: it takes about 30 seconds to boot up, from power-off to drawer-open.

Also if you get one, make sure you update the firmware before you get too deeply into it. All the HD-DVD players have an ethernet port, so the update is easy and takes about 30 minutes.

Firmware update .ISO images can also be found online if you don't have ethernet nearby.

I tried that route (burning the .iso onto a CD-RW) but the player did not recognize the disk. I was doing it that way because I don't have Ethernet near my home entertainment system.

Then I figured out I could bring Ethernet over using my laptop's WiFi to receive the internet connection and then ICS'ing it to the hard-wired Ethernet on the laptop, then plugging into the Toshiba HD-DVD. Much to my surprise, it worked with just a little tweaking.

The Toshibas are very picky about the media used for .ISO updates... has to be CD-R, not RW or any DVD. My Samsung BDP1000 will accept about any type of media.

Best Buy announces today that they'll give you a $50 gift card if you had the bad luck to purchase an HD-DVD player from them over Christmas, up to the Toshiba "we quit" announcement.

Guys, what are your thoughts on the value of buying a Toshiba EP10 (the midrange model here between the XE and E1) from a eBay seller, for around $230 + shipping? That's just over USD$200.

I wasn't interested until the HDDVDs were being almost given away and considered it might be a useful HDMI DVD player (with ability to also play HDDVDs). I believe the XE is muich better but might just leave it entirely and wait until we eventually get a new TV...

You should be able to pick up a 1080p Toshiba for under $100 that will be a great up-converting DVD player and, of course, will play HD DVDs.

Where are you finding HD DVDs being almost given away?

I'm very happy with my Panasonic DMP-BD30 player, but I still think there is at least one more elephant in the room. While the library of content available on BlueRay still isn't that big - the larger concern is that a lot of the available content isn't that good. I think putting a title on BlueRay (or HD DVD - this isn't BlueRay specific), in many cases, is a way to make it sell to a captive audience so desperate for high definition content that they will buy just about anything because they have few alternatives. I still sit wondering when more of the "good stuff" will make it to BR....

In Australia. All under $10!
Players $220-250 resales on ebay.com.au.
Check out eBay Aust, & retilers

In Australia. All under $10!
Players $220-250 resales on ebay.com.au.
Check out eBay Aust, & retilersAh, that explains it. The U.S. dollar is so worthless that everything on eBay US is going for double. :(

Best Buy announces today that they'll give you a $50 gift card if you had the bad luck to purchase an HD-DVD player from them over Christmas, up to the Toshiba "we quit" announcement.Amazon.com sent out similar $50 coupons today.