MilesBuzz! - Has FT shifted from advocating FF programs to "shtupping" then?

"Shtup" basically mean to screw.

When I joined FT, the topics seemed to focus on how to get the best bang for the buck. Today, many of the posts seem to be about how the airline owes us all the time (extra miles put into the account, compensation issues, etc.) Have others noticed this gradual shift?

Are we devolving into airliners.net or untied.com?

With the growth of the FT community and the fact that it's open to everyone I think it is an inevitable shift, if only because of the addition of members. While I haven't been around FT forever, I always remember reading "How much compensation am I entitled to?" threads, etc. I think the fact that it's so much bigger today would be among the reasons, and I really don't feel there's a shift in the core of what FT is...

Just my two cents.

You joined in 2000, I have been around since 1998. I understand what you are talking about. I think part of the reason for your observation is airline service has taken a huge dive post-9/11.

I guess this is going to be a "trip down memory lane thread".

I remember

--- How to do a status challenge
--- Where can we all get together
---Oh I have something you need - here you go
maybe a year later that person would realize that they had something I needed- but quid pro quo it wasnt.

"So yes IMO it has changed

--- How to do a status challenge
--- Where can we all get together
---Oh I have something you need - here you go
maybe a year later that person would realize that they had something I needed- but quid pro quo it wasnt.


I've experienced all of those in the last few months... but I hear what you are saying. I think it is more an issue of the noise far exceeding the signal. But the signal is still here.

While this is an interesting topic, the CommunityBuzz! mods have discussed it and feel it's probably a better fit for the MilesBuzz! forum.

Please continue to follow and contribute at it's new home.

Thanks.


______________________

Jenbel, Cholula and chrissxb

CommunityBuzz! Co-Moderators

It depends, in part, on which forum you are in. But I agree that there is an unfortunate trend toward pushing for compensation, but I also agree that airline changes have been unfortunate since 9/11.

The main difference that I have observed is that at the beginning (and I have been reading it from the beginning), it seemed to me that there were about equal numbers of business travelers and leisure travelers on this board. Now, it appears that the vast majority of the posters, especially the American members, are predominantly leisure travelers.

These groups have different areas on which they focus and are looking for different things out of FF programs, but interesting and insightful posts are not exclusive to either group. And altho it may seem that redundant and just plain unnecessary posts largely come from the leisure group, that is only because that group is so much larger now. I don't think that either has per capita any monopoly on that sort of stuff.

I think it's also partly a reflection on a shift in society as a whole over the past 10 years - I teach at a big university and we call this the "entitlement generation." Everyone seems to think they are entitled to so much that we used to have to work for and considered special rewards or perks or bonuses.

FF programs have now been around for more than 25 years and many people who do not remember or know the days before FF programs existed see them as an entitlement rather than the marketing tool that they are. When the airlines make changes, they feel as if their entitlement is being taken away or reduced.

I don't disagree with anything posted so far - but I also think the airlines themselves have contributed to a shift in mentality. Their own policies serve to establish an almost-confrontational relationship with their clients (us). I'm not even talking about things out of their control, like the TSA. I'm talking about fundamental customer service, problem-solving, flexibility, thinking, and general mindset of the employees as they interact with clients. It is all very rules-based, adversarial, and underpins a culture that we, the clients, are somehow a nuisance.

Anyone remember seeing that "No waivers, no favors" internal email that some airline sent out to all of its employees? (I wish I had the link - I know I saw it here and perhaps also at F**kedcompany.com.) I can't imagine in a million years sending that kind of email to my team about how we interact with our client partners on a daily basis. It's classless and absurd.

It's not even that I ever really *got* any waivers or favors - it's more about the culture and empowering people to think and solve problems. That's gone, and as such we are now reduced to exploiting systems to try and gain some sort of advantage over 'The Man'. Why does air travel have to be us vs. The Man? That's sad... It does not have to be this way because of security procedures at airports - that's a bogus excuse.

Oddly enough, the one airline that seems to "get it" is Southwest. No, I'm not a big fan of the product itself and don't fly them often, but whenever I have to fly with them (and especially if my plans change or I encounter irregular ops), I feel like they deal fairly with me. It's more than I can say for most.

When I joined FT, the topics seemed to focus on how to get the best bang for the buck. Today, many of the posts seem to be about how the airline owes us all the time... Have others noticed this gradual shift? The relationship between customers and airlines has long been an adversarial chess game. In the pre-9/11 days when Gordon Bethune charged me $2300 for a last-minute coach ticket, he took advantage of me because he could. When a crafty mileage run vaults a customer into the Platinum zone for $600, he's taking advantage of the airline right back.

What's changed on FT is the relationships between customer types. Adepts sneer at amateurs. New contributors get flamed. You have greedy compensation chasers lining up against FTers with raging cases of Stockholm Syndrome (e.g. irrational sympathy for their captors) who can defend or rationalize the most egregious corporate acts. (Bizarrely, these defenses grow more fervent as airline service quality degenerates and the horror stories get worse. I think there must be a great academic study in that.)

I suppose this is inevitable as the FT base balloons from a core of adepts to reflect the public at large. To me the flying public has always been composed of two categories of people: those who understand the aircraft cabin is a a social community, and act to make it livable... and those who maximize their own "rights" or advantage at the expense of the community. FT used to be weighted toward the first category; today it is weighted toward the second.

I guess this is going to be a "trip down memory lane thread".

I remember

<SNIP>

---Oh I have something you need - here you go

<SNIP>
"So yes IMO it has changed

I am, for once, actually happy to have to disagree with another FTer. About a month and a half ago, a fellow FTer (whom I didn't know in advance, btw.) PMed me, since he thought that based on my postings he had something I would appreciate. Something which is usually traded on CC against something-of-non-trivial-value, but which he offered for free to me since he thought I'd appreciate it / put it to good use...just like that.

So (and I am a relative newbie as an active poster / registered user on FT) that "old-time-spirit" is still around. Maybe diluted, but it's still around in some good people......

So (and I am a relative newbie as an active poster / registered user on FT) that "old-time-spirit" is still around. Maybe diluted, but it's still around in some good people......I have to agree. A few months ago, an FTer with whom I had essentially never interacted before sent me a UA e-cert. A legitimate one. :D Out of the blue, without me even thinking about asking, for basically no reason other than he thought I could use it.

There's definitely a lot of noise and disgruntlement around here, for sure... it waxes and wanes depending on the times. But, there's still plenty of advocation and general camaraderie, IMHO.

Add me to the list of recipients of helpful, cost-saving info, PMed by another heretofore, unknown to me FTer! ^

That kind FTer sent it unsolicited after reading a post of mine and thought he could help.

fwiw, if anyone ever feels a bit down on FT, for any reason, I strongly suggest you head over to Community Buzz and read the relatively recent "Medical Emergency" thread. Your faith in FT and FTers will soon be restored. :)

Personally, I was stunned when I saw that people on CC were trading 3P nominations. I guess it's why I am not rich. I justed gifted the two I had to people who seemed to be genuine with the hope that they would act likewise in the future.

I do not expect the perks and benefits but I have no trouble asking for them. If denied then the case is closed.

The question seems to ask more about FTers attitude toward the programs themselves, rather than generosity toward each other (at least in my reading). And as an original member of FT, I can say that there seems more antagonism toward the programs now than there was at the beginning. I attribute that to a sense that FF program members do not feel they are getting what is promised these days, or at least that it is much much harder to try to get the promised benefits.

I am not sure I ever had a problem getting a FF seat on the exact date and flight that I wanted until sometime in the mid- to late 90's. During the early years, the programs were still feeling their way, and they had yet to bring the principles of hard-nosed management to the FF perks they were distributing. I recall, for example, that in the early years there were so few FF members that many airlines would bump any FF member up to first class, and that their system would then award you FC mileage flown as a result. Worked that routine more times than I can remember.

When FT began, we had only begun to experience minor glitches or capacity problems in obtaining benefits. There were still incredibly generous promotions out there every so often, and FT became the means of spreading the news about how to work those promotions. Triple miles. Latin Pass. Lots of other promotions.

Now, the programs are a lot more stingy in handing stuff out, even free seats, and it rankles a lot of people. So when the opportunity comes to get every last drop out of a program, many feel they deserve it.

Just my perspective.

The airlines have been quite consistently taking away privileges from frequent fliers. Some airlines have really stuck it to frequent fliers. Look at those UA or AA travellers who pay close to $400 to have access to a lounge. The advertising says that they have to pay a 'nominal fee' for drinks, but in actual fact they pay full bar price. Many FF programs are highly customer focused while many, such as UA, just give it window dressing.

Many airlines also now essentially give you nothing for gratis on flights except for basic libation. I was traveling on AA recently and they asked me if I wanted creamer for my coffee. They didn't have milk, they had powdered creamer. I can't even recollect the last time anywhere I had ever been required to have powdered creamer. I ended up having black coffee that day.

Quite to the contrary, the airlines in general have been screwing passengers (why use a fancy word that means screw when you could just use screw) since 9/11. I know that there were financial troubles, but it's not as if the things they took away are coming back.

Much of the animosity towards the FF programs comes from the reduced number of award seats. Plenty of people here have played the game, been away from friends and family for extended periods of time and now have many miles. Airlines who reduce reward availability and force people into using a second tier of reward redemption are definitely screwing passengers. There is not much the passengers can do about it, but they are being shafted.

In terms of the site itself, it always seems rather silly to me for people to be having get togethers. I have family and friends and don't really see why I would want to meet a random person while traveling because we post on the same website. I mean, I fly on the same airline as everyone on my plane, but that doesn't mean I'm going to become their best buddies.

In terms of the animosity to new users, people get way to sensitive about this. When someone new posts a question that gets asked every second day, pointing them to the search function is appropriate. This happens on every web forum on the planet. It gets rid of a large number of duplicate posts, keep the more relevant posts on the first page and eases the burden on the website servers. Pointing out website policies to new users is not being mean or hurtful, it is educating someone on how the site works. There are rules for a reason.

The site is still a great resource. I don't think that the site is screwing its members. It is likely more that people who used to post on a very small site are now posting on a much larger one and they are feeling the difference.

(why use a fancy word that means screw when you could just use screw)For the same reason that people use fancy words that mean lots of other things... propagation of advanced vocabulary. Different words with the same denotation often have subtly different connotations whose differences, while minute, are nevertheless important in expressing nuance. In other words, it is much more expressive to use these "fancy" words than to simplify everything to basic definitions.

I have family and friends and don't really see why I would want to meet a random person while traveling because we post on the same website. I mean, I fly on the same airline as everyone on my plane, but that doesn't mean I'm going to become their best buddies.Perhaps you don't have experience with FT DOs because you shun them, but the point isn't that everyone get together randomly. People express their personalities via their posts and it's both possible and actually easy to make friends even without a face-to-face interaction. The internet and web forums in general are essentially reviving the concept of the "pen pal," and some of us believe our lives are richer for it. And yes, we do have friends outside of FT, as well.

To use your analogy: you may not become best buddies with everyone on your plane, but you might have an enjoyable conversation with your seatmate and discover that you share common interests and had a good time conversing with them, and then might want to meet them somewhere off the plane as well. The same happens here - people don't just randomly congregate, they join DOs attended by people they "know" through FT and with whom they have shared enjoyable conversations.

I am in no way recommending that you attend a DO or trying to convince you to do so, but there's no reason to bash the concept, either.

Re: OP. Probably, though with cause. I remember my first year using FT and picking up all kinds of useful tips. That was back when I was a CO elite (having dumped Delta over LUser). Was amazed at all the codes and unpublicized offers that were floating around that allowed for more mileage bang for the buck. It was also early in the game for Priceline, and using bonus cash and learning the bidding strategies really helped with that. 2000 and 2001 were my only years making plat in a 16-year gold run.

Of course, much has changed since then, and most of it not so good. Airlines got hit hard by 9/11, SARS and then fuel, and many like DL made unwise cost cuts. Others did the 50% EQM changes.

If U.S. airlines were somehow trying to look out for seat availability I think you could make some kind of case. But instead they minted miles through credit cards and other tie-ins like crazy even as they cut back on seats. Looks like an Albanian pyramid scheme. The future will be worse, possibly much worse after the first baby boomers retire and a few try to use large sums of miles built up over working careers.

Maybe with LCCs the demise of the legacy FF programs would have happened anyway and the future would be fare competition with tons of junk fees and a charge-for-everything mentality. But the way it stands now, that'll just strand a lot of unredeemed miles.

So if FTers are really advocating anything, I think it's the notion of burn-as-you-earn. Don't try to hoard miles thinking they'll be worth the same.

When I first joined, I knew absolutely nothing about maximizing my miles, points, upgrades, etc.

I learned all I wanted to learn about my specific programs and how to keep myself always in first on the plane, and always in an upgraded suite in every hotel.

Now I just look for parties and deals.

Wow, it's nice to see some old-time familiar "faces" in this thread :)

FT has grown from a small community to a large city, so I think it's inevitable that "shtup the airline" type posts will become more visible. In most cases these types of posts get the appropriate reprimanding, and in so doing the healthier community spirit is preserved or at least a balance is struck.

I don't come to FT as much as I used to, so maybe I'm just not noticing as much negativity as you, although I do notice alot of "how much should the airline compensate me" threads with appropriate reprimanding by seasoned members.

With regard to the diminishing benefits and bonuses of FF programs, I always thought it was inevitable. It was always obvious to me that many of the benefits and bonuses were not cost effective for the airline.

Add me to the list of recipients of helpful, cost-saving info, PMed by another heretofore, unknown to me FTer! ^



Add me to that list, too. :)

And as an original member of FT, I can say that there seems more antagonism toward the programs now than there was at the beginning. I attribute that to a sense that FF program members do not feel they are getting what is promised these days, or at least that it is much much harder to try to get the promised benefits. ...

Just my perspective.


I think that's a very valid point.

"For the same reason that people use fancy words that mean lots of other things... propagation of advanced vocabulary. Different words with the same denotation often have subtly different connotations whose differences, while minute, are nevertheless important in expressing nuance. In other words, it is much more expressive to use these "fancy" words than to simplify everything to basic definitions."

Using a word in your post that requires you to (immediately explain what you mean by the word) means that you're not using the ideal vocabulary. ;)

The site is still useful and the programs are still useful, but the airlines have cut back service and the programs have taken away benefits for people. That's why people are complaining about them. Oddly, many people still stay with the airlines that have taken away the most.

Using a word in your post that requires you to (immediately explain what you mean by the word) means that you're not using the ideal vocabulary. ;)What do you mean by "ideal?" If you mean "understandable by the largest number of people" (which I believe is your intended meaning), then perhaps not... but if you mean, "expresses your intended meaning in the most precise and artful manner" (which is my opinion of "ideal" vocabulary) then I think using "uncommon" words is not only warranted, it is desirable.

Just because a word isn't commonly used or understood by a sizable fraction of the populace does not mean it should be abandoned. A strong command of vocabulary is the hallmark of enlightened discourse.

members do not feel they are getting what is promised these days, or at least that it is much much harder to try to get the promised benefits. ...


I'd add that this is true of Hotel programs as well as the airlines.

When I first came to FT I was getting miles for my DL trips, but here is where I learned how to maximize the benefits of the hotel frequent traveler programs.
At that time ,I rarely even paid attention to hotel programs.
With FT, upgrades,easy point redemption and miles/points starting pouring in.
Now, airline miles are even easier to get, but much harder to redeem. Upgrade policies seem to change every few years and hotels (especially HH)have tightened up their bonus opportinities.
With the drying up of old benefits, some of the old excitement is gone.
So I guess we either "shtup" or "shut up".

but if you mean, "expresses your intended meaning in the most precise and artful manner" (which is my opinion of "ideal" vocabulary) then I think using "uncommon" words is not only warranted, it is desirable.

A strong command of vocabulary is the hallmark of enlightened discourse.

^ Well said.

A strong command of vocabulary is the hallmark of enlightened discourse.

My mom would like you! Whenever anyone starts using vulgarities in their converation, she hands them a thesaurus and says "Find another way to say that!" (accompanied by an evil eye! :D ) LOL! She also taught us to NOT use the word "like" or "okay, so..." as a conversation filler, saying "Repetitive phrasing shows a lack of creativity and education."

And, before anyone asks, she wasn't/isn't an English teacher. She's an artist with a basic HS diploma. But she's one of the most well-educated, well-read and well-rounded people I've ever had the joy of knowing. I'm very proud of her!

But she's one of the most well-educated, well-read and well-rounded people I've ever had the joy of knowing. I'm very proud of her!

I'll bet she's proud of you, too. :)

(She sounds quite a bit like my mom. Do you suppose we're related? ;) )

Using a word in your post that requires you to (immediately explain what you mean by the word) means that you're not using the ideal vocabulary. ;)

In general, I wouldn't append a definition to an uncommon word (unless it's really uncommon); I'd leave looking it up as an exercise for the reader if he has the interest. In this case, though, the word is a slang term in a dialect, and thus may not be capable of being looked up in a dictionary. (At least, it doesn't appear in my desk dictionary, M-W's Collegiate, Tenth Edition; nor, for that matter, does it appear in my Black's.) I would say if one is using a foreign term, or a slang term from a non-English language, it is only polite to define or explain it.

Of course, if one is in an area where Yiddish is widely used and understood, explaining a Yiddish term would be unnecessary and perhaps even insulting, but for a worldwide board such as this, it seems to me to be appropriate.

Going back to the topic, though, I remember when this board was first starting, and Rudi was kind enough to share some of his 'guerilla' "beat the system" tips with the rest of us. The intent was not to "screw" the airlines, but rather to share the "lore of the seasoned traveller" on how to get around the more onerous impediments to gracious travel. I certainly learned quite a bit -- it seemed to me analogous to sitting around a campfire (or a bar, as far as that goes) listening to the experienced experts sharing their knowledge with the newbies.

In this case, though, the word is a slang term in a dialect, and thus may not be capable of being looked up in a dictionary. (At least, it doesn't appear in my desk dictionary, M-W's Collegiate, Tenth Edition; nor, for that matter, does it appear in my Black's.)That's what Google is for. :p Also, check out urbandictionary.com.

And as an original member of FT, I can say that there seems more antagonism toward the programs now than there was at the beginning. I attribute that to a sense that FF program members do not feel they are getting what is promised these days, or at least that it is much much harder to try to get the promised benefits.

Just my perspective.

I agree with this as well. It's amazing what the airlines & hotels promise to the point of being very very close to false advertising. They back up the promises with lots of fine print and major restrictions. It's almost an insult to my intelligence when some promos land in my inbox. All this over promise and underdelivering leads to unhappy customers who come to FT to get advice on how to "stick it back" to the the Airline or Hotel. It's not healthy and goes against the term loyalty.

I haven't been here very long (only a few months) so perhaps I'm not really qualified to answer here.. but, in the UK at least there has been a dramatic and fairly recent shift towards intolerance of poor service.

Combine that with what appears to be a fairly across-the-board deterioration of service on airlines and you have a recipe for community whinging about it.

There are some great and helpful threads here.. not everything is negative.. but at the same time we should not shy away from making a big-deal about poor service - it's totally unacceptable and bust be confined to the history books :D

It used to be that sights like "untied.com" got the lion's share of poor passenger experiences. I prided myself that FT was above that. Sure, there were always complaint threads. And yes, I was and am involved in some. But the quality of complaints on FT were always, well, more sophisticated. I feel like this has changed.

... Going back to the topic, though, I remember when this board was first starting, and Rudi was kind enough to share some of his 'guerilla' "beat the system" tips with the rest of us. The intent was not to "screw" the airlines, but rather to share the "lore of the seasoned traveller" on how to get around the more onerous impediments to gracious travel. I certainly learned quite a bit -- it seemed to me analogous to sitting around a campfire (or a bar, as far as that goes) listening to the experienced experts sharing their knowledge with the newbies.

:) these tips are still available ... (see my signature)

As a new(er) member, I'd like to say this thread should me a must read for all new FTers. (Except for the posts about vocabulary. Did I mistakenly navigate to grammartalk.com?)

I remember my first post ... a gripe about a hotel that I posted in the wrong forum. Flamed? Oh yeah I got flamed. Roasted. Over time, I learned more about the way this board works and the various quirks of the regulars in my favorite forums. I think one of the issues that you oldtimers (:p) have is that there are SO many new users finding this site, and they don't know the ins and outs of life as an FTer. So, we get the "What are my upgrade chances as a silver?" and the like. I try to just ignore those, or welcome them and quickly answer their questions. Believe it or not, they don't need the flames. Over time, they'll learn, like I did, how FT works. Or, they won't return.

As for the old days and how much better they were ... I think a lot of the tips and tricks that were new back in the late 90s and early 00s are sort of old hat now. They still work, but they just don't have the *wow* factor. It was the dawn of the internet and a huge revolution in the way we bought travel. Now, the airlines tighten the rules to save money, and get more internet savvy themselves. I don't think we're unwilling to share tips. I think there just aren't as many good tips to share.

Again, great thread. Frankly, amid all the griping about FT, it's kind of proof of exactly what kind of forum this is. I don't (and would never consider) spending nearly as much time on any other site on any other topic. My significant other thinks I'm addicted ... ^^

I agree with this as well. It's amazing what the airlines & hotels promise to the point of being very very close to false advertising. They back up the promises with lots of fine print and major restrictions. It's almost an insult to my intelligence when some promos land in my inbox. All this over promise and underdelivering leads to unhappy customers who come to FT to get advice on how to "stick it back" to the the Airline or Hotel. It's not healthy and goes against the term loyalty.

The airlines are the ones setting the rules and promising things. We are just finding the most efficient way to collect on what has been offered.

Can one of you higher-ups make this a sticky?

Interesting that in 90% of the cases where people call for compensation its on carriers like AA, UA, NW, CO - THE US carriers !

Reason: Other carriers treat you better in case of irregular operations and compensate you automatically! Like providing a food voucher (and if its just for 25EUR) overnight a hotel or even monetary compensation. I experienced just one situation with LH where I had to write a letter to complain and recieve a small voucher later.

If the US airlines would focus a little bit on customer service instead of pulling the "weather" card if there was a storm 2 weeks ago maybe people would stop or at least refrain from looking for compensation so many times.

Just my opinion but instead of being the lawyer for their airlines some members here should see how people are treated if they are not equipped with a status card or a club membership. And even this didnt prevent me from spending the night in the LAS terminal this weekend !

Interesting that in 90% of the cases where people call for compensation its on carriers like AA, UA, NW, CO - THE US carriers !

90% of what cases? Do you have a source for this figure?

If you are attempting to reference cases here on FT, I'll wager you're way off the mark. A quick glance will show recent complaints and compensation questions in at least *90%* of the non-US carriers represented by a forum here. ;)

90% of what cases? Do you have a source for this figure?

If you are attempting to reference cases here on FT, I'll wager you're way off the mark. A quick glance will show recent complaints and compensation questions in at least *90%* of the non-US carriers represented by a forum here. ;)

Well, what are the examples? The european carriers are covered by a (for passengers) very generous EU regulation that tells them how to compensate passengers.

Then there are the Asian carriers like CX, SQ, JL where I never heard anything really serious.

And what I said about the weather apology is really just applicable to the US airlines. I never got told by QF,LH,CX,BA,SQ "We have no aircraft because of the storm 2 days ago. Feel free to sleep here in the terminal until we get you out on a new connection tomorrow morning" :td:

Well, what are the examples?

To see as many examples as you want, go to the airline forum and use the key word "compensation" to search. Or if you don't want to bothere with that, you can look for a compensation thread on the first page.

Here's but one example (complete with weather excuse):
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=759256

Edited to add:
Not everyone agrees with you that CX is without it's problems.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=757434

The airlines are the ones setting the rules and promising things. We are just finding the most efficient way to collect on what has been offered.

Who's "shtupping" who? The world I live in is DOMINATED by corporations. Can't get a cup of coffee, buy a book, fill up the tank (what bigger corporate dominance is their than big oil?), get groceries, buy clothes, etc. without having to pay some big corporation their share. And all of this is before I get on a plane or stay in a hotel or rent a car.

Frequent flyer programs, credit cards, mileage malls, almost anything we do is under their T&Cs, not ours. We have no control over what their marketing departments offer, and in fact, anything these companies do has been vetted by many people including consultants, marketers, accountants, lawyers and executives. They are not naive little children. They are not powerless. Most importantly, they know what they are doing, though it may not always be efficient. And, ironically, they need us to show them the holes in their marketing programs (which seems to have just happened with Amtrak and the Choice mileage transfer).

See what corporations do when people try to maximize the use of the very business model they created:

Frequent Netflix renters sent to back of the line
The more you use, the slower the service, some customers realize

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11262292/


Are banks that for years have taken low interest Japanese loans, exchanged the money, and invested it in other countries with higher interest rates gaming the system? Derivatives, arbitrage...many of these banks own portions of other "Pay-Day Loan" companies. We are small change to these guys.

What about K Street Lobbying? Where are our advocates? Who's lobbying for us?

All we do is elbow around in here trying to maximize the personal results of a system we have little control over...and collectively share that understanding and information with our fellow compatriots.

So, again, I can't help but wonder "Who's shtupping who?"

FF programs have now been around for more than 25 years and many people who do not remember or know the days before FF programs existed see them as an entitlement rather than the marketing tool that they are. When the airlines make changes, they feel as if their entitlement is being taken away or reduced.

What entitlement program is profitable? :confused:

FF programs exist because they make money for the airlines. As consumer - whether it be business or leisure travel - your goal should be to maximise your utility. Their goal is to maximize profit.

To see as many examples as you want, go to the airline forum and use the key word "compensation" to search. Or if you don't want to bothere with that, you can look for a compensation thread on the first page.

Here's but one example (complete with weather excuse):
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=759256

Edited to add:
Not everyone agrees with you that CX is without it's problems.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=757434

Example one seems like the OP got at least a hotel (he said he went with the taxi back into the city) and got rebooked for the next available flight. It doesnt surprise me that it was overbooked but then he was entitled to IDB compensation, just not sure about the EK regulations but when I read it then the flight departed to the EU.

The second example sounds serious and might be extremely visible for someone flying CX over years and recognizes a downfall of service and quality. However this quality is still way over the level that some other airlines provide !

Not saying the US airlines are the worst, I had many bad experience with AF, CI, IB, AZ... but within the last year they are always the usual suspects that show up in my bad memories. Names like UA,US,NW and sometimes AA. Scary: Southwest was one of the best !

What entitlement program is profitable? :confused:

FF programs exist because they make money for the airlines. As consumer - whether it be business or leisure travel - your goal should be to maximise your utility. Their goal is to maximize profit.

There seems to be a grey area on this topic but when in doubt I lean toward the consumer as they are acting within a set of rules that were devised by the corporation they are transacting with.