Southwest Rapid Rewards - Why Southwest will continue to fail with Business Travelers.

Background: I am a Frequent Flyer on Southwest. I fly over 32 times a year which puts me into the A-List bucket. I earn enough credits to get a companion pass (CP) each year. 90+% of my flights are full fare, walk-up fares (Business Fares on southwest.com).

I arrive to the airport 1 hour and 30 mins before my flight departure. Because of the Holiday weekend (Thanksgiving) I give myself the extra time needed when flying WN.

Because of my luggage situation, I had to get a smartcart to get it into the airport. When I arrived to get into line, the hurried and not to friendly Southwest Employee points me to the 'Special Services' line. I explain I have E-Tickets and would like to use the 'faster' moving line. I get a quick answer back that states, 'We dont ALLOW those (pointing to the cart) in this line.

As the clock ticks down, I thought, OK, fine. No scene to be made, I move over to the 'Special Services' line. While waiting in line, I notice the other line moving while my line not. I quickly count the number of agents working the line, 4. That is right, 4 agents working the line. There are easily 80 - 100 people in line.

As the clock ticks down, 35 mins later, I pull out my cell phone to call Customer service to understand what is going on. I call the 800-435-9792 number as I do not have the customer service number with me. I talked to a nice lady who said Customer Service is now closed (it is 3:30pm in OAK). She told me the reason for the long line was because it was a Holiday Weekend. Not only did I agree with her, I questioned why if this was a Holiday Weekend why they only had 4 people working. She had no answer for that.

I was transferred to a supervisor, May, who was really nice. She contacted the OAK airport and reported back that *all* the agents were working. I explained that I had already waited in line over 40 mins and if all the agents were working, why did they only have 4 working during the Holiday Weekend?

50 mins later, we were through the line.

---

Why will Southwest continue to fail:

No express Security Line for Southwest Elite or Business Flyers
No Elite or Business check-in lines for Luggage
Rapid Rewards is worse than AA for flights
No Bonus points for Elite or Business Fares

Although I think this has little to do with business travelers, I've noticed more and more of this recently at airports like ISP, HFD and PHX. That kind of treatment would scare away all types of customers.

Now that the "self" check-in machines seem to be the norm, its my impression that less and less Agents are around to help. I don't mind doing all the work but then don't make me wait to get the bagged tagged and then have to drag it to TSA. Waited a good 5 min in BDL while the ONE agent rebooked a passenger manually after I self checked at the next station.

My biggest peeve is the long lines to get to the machines (i.e. last Thursday afternoon at PHX), then fully 1/2 of them aren't in operation. I see that all over and over. Can't imagine why invest in the technology only to have it sit there.

The cynic in me suspects a union rule restricting the # of active machines per working Agent. Please someone prove me wrong.

Why will Southwest continue to fail:

No express Security Line for Southwest Elite or Business Flyers
No Elite or Business check-in lines for Luggage
Rapid Rewards is worse than AA for flights
No Bonus points for Elite or Business Fares

Yup.

It's really quite idiotic what they've done. Their bread-and-butter leisure customers have now been pushed to the back of the line, so they can get better seats on the legacy airlines (since the buy their tickets way ahead of time, which means the seatmap has lots of empty aisle seats available). At the same time, they won't bring their frequent flyer program, elite program (A-list), or Business Class (BS) tickets up to par with the legacies, so they're still going to be shunned by most business travelers.

Glad I'm not a shareholder! When I heard that changes were coming, I figured the changes would improve profitability at the expense of customer satisfcation. Instead, it looks like they've managed to make changes that will hurt both!

They need to either go back to the old Southwest model (before the first RR changes) or fully jump to a legacy airline model. Their middle-of-the-road position is pleasing neither their old customer constituency nor the business traveler constituency that the legacy airlines specialize in attracting and that Southwest is so desperate to attract.

I predict priority screening and priority baggage check-in will be added by the end of 2008. A-list will become a much more complete elite program, minus bonus credit based strictly on flight activity.

This is based strictly on my assessment of what makes sense for Southwest. Southwest might have a different opinion.

It's really quite idiotic what they've done. Their bread-and-butter leisure customers have now been pushed to the back of the line, so they can get better seats on the legacy airlines (since the buy their tickets way ahead of time, which means the seatmap has lots of empty aisle seats available).

If Southwest manages to replace 3 deep-discount buyers with even 1 Business Select passenger, this change will be a win.

Besides, after a few bad travel experiences on legacies and a few $100 change fees those leisure customers will drift back, even if the discount fares are not lower on Southwest.

Deep-discount buyers (including me) can look forward to a gradual loss of perks over the next several years at all airlines, not just Southwest. It's the best lever airlines have to keep those discounts as deep as possible.

I see the downfalls mentioned.

But I think SWA will gain more revenue from the changes. Many will pay the extra few $$ as the company pays it anyway. It has only been 2 weeks. I think we will see many more people in front of line by Jan.

And yes, there needs to be an Express check in line when the line gets over 5 min long for BS and A listers. A good observation.

lets also keep in mind biz travelers don't check very many bags

lets also keep in mind biz travelers don't check very many bags
Exactly.

I have checked luggage once in the last 18 months, and that was due to having to carry company property.

I always fit everything into a carry on. If I check luggage it takes away my freedom to jump on earlier flights, change plans, etc etc.

I think most business travelers are in my camp.

No Bonus points for Elite or Business Fares

Business Select fares get 0.25 to 1.0 bonus credits based on length of the trip.

A-List, at two weeks old, is already a substantial benefit to those who fly WN a lot. I hope it's enhanced over time; a security shortcut would be on top of my list. I wouldn't be surprised to see future Business Select fare promotions where the bonus credits count towards A-List, based on the following from WN's website at http://www.southwest.com/rapid_rewards/aList_membership_rules.html

"The following will not count toward qualification for our A-List: [...] bonus Rapid Rewards credits, unless specifically designated as such;"

Why will Southwest continue to fail:

No express Security Line for Southwest Elite or Business Flyers
No Elite or Business check-in lines for Luggage
Rapid Rewards is worse than AA for flights
No Bonus points for Elite or Business Fares

To be fair....the landside of OAK is just a total dump. It's a wreck. Everytime I go there, baggage and security is a mess. So, I hate to say it, if you've been out of there before, then you should have known to plan for MORE than 1.5 hours.

As for the rest...

Business Select flyers will have Priority security screening at SNA. Honestly, at most other airports, there is really no need for priority screening.

No Elite biz check in lines for luggage: who checks luggage???????? :rolleyes:

Rapid Rewards is actually pretty great.

And there are extra points for biz select fares.

Sounds like you just had a bad day at OAK and are venting.

I agree with OP. I am in a similar situation and I am also in the A-List. My of my flights are full fare because of last minute business trips. I never understood why people think Southwest provide good service, it's quite odd to me. Maybe people are just blinded by the $39 fare or something. Southwest customer service has gotten worse with each flight. Aside from the no change fee, I rank it as one of the worst!! I did a few "regular network" flights on Delta, Continental, Northwest, Cathay Pacific and China Airlines and I realize there exist better service. With the exception of one cancelled flight on NWA, the network carrier provided better service both on the ground and in the cabin. Sure, they cut back on food and snacks a little, overall I had better experience with the network carriers. Southwest has been late on average 3 out of 4 flights. I flight SWA all the time, so this number really holds. Because one SWA aircraft has many stops per day, once they run into problem, they are late for the rest of the day.

Also, SWA never value regular customers. I complained a few times because the delay caused me to miss connecting flights and they had the guts say I complain too much. Why is it my fault that they are always late and affecting my connecting flights? And the idiots at customer service never bother to look at my history to see that I am a such a revenue generating customer! I am can't wait for Virgin America to start service in my area next year, because I am switching. Sick of bad attitude and constant tardiness with SWA.

Southwest has been late on average 3 out of 4 flights. I flight SWA all the time, so this number really holds.

Which flights/routes do you typically fly?

Also, SWA never value regular customers. I complained a few times because the delay caused me to miss connecting flights and they had the guts say I complain too much. [...] And the idiots at customer service

This is telling.

It is not fair to say WN will "continue to fail" with business travelers as they don't now, at least in their short-haul markets (do leisure travelers have any need for 12x daily SMF-ONT, 11x daily MHT-BWI or 12x daily MCI-MDW?). What they realize is that they need to do better, hence A-List, Business Select and the concerted effort to reach corporate travel managers.

The changes over the next two years should be interesting. Like nsx, I expect many to be aimed squarely at business travelers.

Exactly.

I have checked luggage once in the last 18 months, and that was due to having to carry company property.

I always fit everything into a carry on. If I check luggage it takes away my freedom to jump on earlier flights, change plans, etc etc.

I think most business travelers are in my camp.

I agree with you. But there are times when bags HAVE to be checked. 95% of the time I dont check bags but when I have to check bags, I want the process to be quick and painless.

As another poster pointed out, they had half the machines for even the 'self checkin' for bags out. I noticed it as I walked by but there should be no reason for those machines to be turned off.

Business Select fares get 0.25 to 1.0 bonus credits based on length of the trip.

A-List, at two weeks old, is already a substantial benefit to those who fly WN a lot. I hope it's enhanced over time; a security shortcut would be on top of my list. I wouldn't be surprised to see future Business Select fare promotions where the bonus credits count towards A-List, based on the following from WN's website at http://www.southwest.com/rapid_rewards/aList_membership_rules.html

"The following will not count toward qualification for our A-List: [...] bonus Rapid Rewards credits, unless specifically designated as such;"

BS fares give you the extra bonus. When I was booking my fare, OAK - SLC, I looked to see if I would get 1 bonus credit or .25. It was .25 so I didnt pay for a BS fare.

The point being, on AA, I get bonus FF miles being EXP. On WN, nada unless I pay the TOP fare and who wants to pay more for .25 credits?

And how is A-list a substantial benefit? Yes, I dont have to be around a computer 24 hours before but as long as I got A on the old system, I was fine. I liked to join at the end of the A line anyways.

I think WN could have done better by making a 'red/orange' carpet elite side where A-listers and BS fare holders could board ANYTIME. Right now, if you miss your boarding call, you are stuck with the masses. When a new line is called, dont try to get in line or you will be trampled.

I think WN could have done better by making a 'red/orange' carpet elite side where A-listers and BS fare holders could board ANYTIME. Right now, if you miss your boarding call, you are stuck with the masses. When a new line is called, dont try to get in line or you will be trampled.

You can board anytime today without a carpet. Just walk to the agent and hand over your boarding pass. To state you'll be trampled is nothing more than hyperbole.

To be fair....the landside of OAK is just a total dump. It's a wreck. Everytime I go there, baggage and security is a mess. So, I hate to say it, if you've been out of there before, then you should have known to plan for MORE than 1.5 hours.

No, its a Holiday Weekend. WN should have KNOWN to staff more than 4 people to check luggage. And why did they push me to the Special Services Line just because I had a cart?

Business Select flyers will have Priority security screening at SNA. Honestly, at most other airports, there is really no need for priority screening.

There isnt? Most of my flights on WN are out of SJC. Right now, I use CLEAR because the lines can get really long. SEA we all know of the little secret to get through but I doubt many people do. As a Business Traveler/A-Lister, I would like to have priority screening at all airports.

No Elite biz check in lines for luggage: who checks luggage???????? :rolleyes:

Not me if I could avoid it! But I had to check luggage. The point being, they should have one line for A-Listers/Business fares for checking luggage when they have to.

Rapid Rewards is actually pretty great.

Compared to...??? I compare it to AA and with AA I can get just about anywhere I need to be without a problem, including Holiday Weekends. With WN, I cant even get Holiday Weekends if I book the day/hour the flights open! I have documented this here on FT.

And there are extra points for biz select fares.

Right. But I dont have to pay extra on AA to get extra points. And .25 come on now, what is that? I know the value of a RR to me and the extra $ dont equal .25 points. I dont drink so I dont care about the drink cert.

Sounds like you just had a bad day at OAK and are venting.

The issue is, I have worked around WN having the lack of these items in the past. WN tells me they want to keep me as a customer, has given me 'perks' to make it better for me, the 'Business' traveler. Yet when it comes down to it, the only additional item they have given me today is the ability to get an A boarding pass. I dont have a special number to call to bypass the queues on the phone. I dont have a special line to check baggage when I need to. I dont get priority boarding (SEA is for All RR members).

Call if venting if you like. Southwest needs to step up and make this work. Today I fly WN. They have that going for them. But... If WN doesnt fix a few problems, and I mean it is really just a few, and another airline comes in and flies the routes I need, I will jump ship.

You can board anytime today without a carpet. Just walk to the agent and hand over your boarding pass. To state you'll be trampled is nothing more than hyperbole.

Let me put it this way, if I wanted to board in the middle of the second A group with my a-18 boarding pass, and the line was moving, I would have to walk up and move into the line. At that time, you are going to get a lot of stares and some people trying to be line police.

It would be better if WN allowed those with BS fares/Elites to have a separate boarding line where they could board anytime, at their leisure.

Let me put it this way, if I wanted to board in the middle of the second A group with my a-18 boarding pass, and the line was moving, I would have to walk up and move into the line. At that time, you are going to get a lot of stares and some people trying to be line police.

A simple flash of your boarding pass would solve that issue, but I understand your desire to obviate that potential confrontation.

I hate how people get to the "please wait for an agent to check your bags, thank you, good bye" (or something like that) screen and just stand in front of the kiosk. Granted there isn't alot of room around there. But several times in the interest of keeping myself and the line moving, I've gone up to one while the previous party is watiing to get their bag tagged and gotten dirty looks.

well isn't the whole kiosk thing about efficiency and moving along????

Maybe the last screen could also add text like if there is a line, please step aside and alllow the next customer to check their bags

In my opinion, Southwest should go back to its roots. It started as a discount airline for leisure travelers, with perhaps the exception of the intra-Texas business routes. It seems now they've outgrown their own model and are struggling for a new identity, increasing frequencies, grabbing business passengers and moving into major hub airports like DEN and PHL. HOU is my home airport, and it just seems they've swamped the place way beyond its comfortable capacity. A recent trip to DAL suggests it's not much different, and I haven't been to MDW in a while but can't imagine it's any better. Management needs to really decide if Southwest is going to compete against the legacies -in which case it needs to bulk up its appeal to business travelers - or against the low cost carriers such as Frontier and AirTran - in which case they need to focus on the leisure passenger's experience. Trying to be everything to everyone just isn't working for WN, and it's a big turn-off for me in choosing to fly them these days. I liked the old model...but I think management is getting greedy in trying to expand, and it's hurting quality.

Business Select flyers will have Priority security screening at SNA. Honestly, at most other airports, there is really no need for priority screening.


BWI needs priority screening. Friday, Saturday it's no less than 20 minutes to go through. Mrs. GHF took 75 minutes one day to clear. Frequently TSA is down to 2-3 screening stations per Terminal A/B checkpoints.

In my opinion, Southwest should go back to its roots. It started as a discount airline for leisure travelers, with perhaps the exception of the intra-Texas business routes.

Incorrect. WN started as an intra-Texas business airline. The leisure travelers came later.

BWI needs priority screening.

Rather, the TSA needs to be abolished and replaced with an effective and efficient security operation.

But priority screening is the more likely of the two. :D

I hate how people get to the "please wait for an agent to check your bags, thank you, good bye" (or something like that) screen and just stand in front of the kiosk. Granted there isn't alot of room around there. But several times in the interest of keeping myself and the line moving, I've gone up to one while the previous party is watiing to get their bag tagged and gotten dirty looks.

well isn't the whole kiosk thing about efficiency and moving along????

Maybe the last screen could also add text like if there is a line, please step aside and alllow the next customer to check their bags

Hence the problem I pointed out in post #2. If you have to sit around waiting for an Agent to check the weight of your bag and apply the routing tags, the entire process grinds to a halt. You simply cannot move aside and let the next Px use the screen if they have bags. And there are separate machines for carry-on only.

-in which case it needs to bulk up its appeal to business travelers - or against the low cost carriers such as Frontier and AirTran - in which case they need to focus on the leisure passenger's experience.

Frontier has lately been pushing for business travel in their advertising. And in my case Frontier's setup is a lot better that Southwest (even despite me being DEN based).

1. I can't buy WN via my travel agent site which means I would have to do the whole expense report hassle.

2. Change fees are expected by the company so WN's policy there doesn't really help. Ticketless funds are probably more trouble under my corporate billing system. You would end up with tickets being paid by the wrong client.

3. Now standby is what I use all the time. Frontier gives free standby anytime same day ($50 for confirmed seat, which would be very rarely needed). And for a flat $100 they offer standby for the day before or day after on your return leg (no fare difference charged). And all these fees are waived for their top elites (25k miles a year).

4. Actual seat reserved and waiting for me when I am last to the gate. Many business travelers are used to being paged by name during the final boarding call. :D

Maybe Southwest policies are great for consultants who never know where they are going to be day to day, but for run of the mill businesses other airlines have more convenient policies and layout.

Incorrect. WN started as an intra-Texas business airline. The leisure travelers came later.

Without a doubt, some of the early travelers were businessmen going within the Texas triangle, and the DAL-HOU shuttle is still a core part of the business. However, below is Southwest's own description of its roots. These values sound more like an appeal to leisure travelers who just want to get where they're going for cheap, and undeniably that became the core customer base upon which the airline was built.

Lifted from Southwest.com's History section:
More than 36 years ago, Rollin King and Herb Kelleher got together and decided to start a different kind of airline. They began with one simple notion: If you get your passengers to their destinations when they want to get there, on time, at the lowest possible fares, and make darn sure they have a good time doing it, people will fly your airline. And you know what? They were right.

Frontier has lately been pushing for business travel in their advertising. And in my case Frontier's setup is a lot better that Southwest (even despite me being DEN based).

1. I can't buy WN via my travel agent site which means I would have to do the whole expense report hassle.

2. Change fees are expected by the company so WN's policy there doesn't really help. Ticketless funds are probably more trouble under my corporate billing system. You would end up with tickets being paid by the wrong client.

3. Now standby is what I use all the time. Frontier gives free standby anytime same day ($50 for confirmed seat, which would be very rarely needed). And for a flat $100 they offer standby for the day before or day after on your return leg (no fare difference charged). And all these fees are waived for their top elites (25k miles a year).

4. Actual seat reserved and waiting for me when I am last to the gate. Many business travelers are used to being paged by name during the final boarding call. :D

Maybe Southwest policies are great for consultants who never know where they are going to be day to day, but for run of the mill businesses other airlines have more convenient policies and layout.

Legacy business, legacy airline

Frontier has lately been pushing for business travel in their advertising. And in my case Frontier's setup is a lot better that Southwest (even despite me being DEN based).

1. I can't buy WN via my travel agent site which means I would have to do the whole expense report hassle.

2. Change fees are expected by the company so WN's policy there doesn't really help. Ticketless funds are probably more trouble under my corporate billing system. You would end up with tickets being paid by the wrong client.

3. Now standby is what I use all the time. Frontier gives free standby anytime same day ($50 for confirmed seat, which would be very rarely needed). And for a flat $100 they offer standby for the day before or day after on your return leg (no fare difference charged). And all these fees are waived for their top elites (25k miles a year).

4. Actual seat reserved and waiting for me when I am last to the gate. Many business travelers are used to being paged by name during the final boarding call. :D

Maybe Southwest policies are great for consultants who never know where they are going to be day to day, but for run of the mill businesses other airlines have more convenient policies and layout.

Sounds like Southwest has a few things to learn from Frontier ^

1. I can't buy WN via my travel agent site which means I would have to do the whole expense report hassle.

WN now publishes fares and availability in Galileo/Apollo. Have you looked to see if this has changed your ability to book via your travel agent site?

Without a doubt, some of the early travelers were businessmen going within the Texas triangle, and the DAL-HOU shuttle is still a core part of the business. However, below is Southwest's own description of its roots.

You do understand that corporate storytelling involves a fair share of marketing, don't you?

WN now publishes fares and availability in Galileo/Apollo. Have you looked to see if this has changed your ability to book via your travel agent site?

Still not available. They do provide a link to SWABIZ so our company isn't anti-WN, but no one wants to deal with the hassle.

My boss is based out of Texas and flies more than me, but he doesn't use WN for business flights due to it not being worth the trouble. And he is a CP holder due to his past business and personal travel.

Legacy business, legacy airline

You do know Frontier is not a legacy airline? No first class, one airplane family, single core hub, a fleet a tenth the size of WN.

Rather, the TSA needs to be abolished and replaced with an effective and efficient security operation.

But priority screening is the more likely of the two. :D

Agreed.

In the meantime, they ought to haul TSA & DHS brass and make them go through screening (with no special privileges) at BWI over and over and over until they start to get the picture. Like making the petulant child write "I will not abuse others" on the chalkboard several hundred times.

To be fair....the landside of OAK is just a total dump. It's a wreck. Everytime I go there, baggage and security is a mess. So, I hate to say it, if you've been out of there before, then you should have known to plan for MORE than 1.5 hours.

Agreed. With the exception of a recent Tuesday evening flight (I almost tripped over myself upon discovering no lines anywhere :)) the OAK customer service counter has been dreadful at all peak travel times. The lines are always long. The best solution is to use the wonderful curbside checkin skycaps for all your needs. You may also find 10-15 min. lines outside, but at least they move quickly (maybe because they rely on tips ;) )

Business Select flyers will have Priority security screening at SNA. Honestly, at most other airports, there is really no need for priority screening.

With all due respect, I don't think you would maintain that opinion if you had to fly from OAK on a regular basis. A priority (i.e. non-idiot) line is most definitely needed.

No Elite biz check in lines for luggage: who checks luggage???????? :rolleyes:

I agree with you. But there are times when bags HAVE to be checked. 95% of the time I dont check bags but when I have to check bags, I want the process to be quick and painless.

Believe me I never checked luggage before I got married. :D But those of us who travel with children have to check luggage - there is almost no way around it :( Also, WN refuses to issue infant passes online or by phone (unlike others such as UA - which permit online checkin when traveling with infants <2) - again we have no choice but to wait in line. Fortunately the skycaps are happy to handle this task, too ^

No, its a Holiday Weekend. WN should have KNOWN to staff more than 4 people to check luggage. And why did they push me to the Special Services Line just because I had a cart?

Agree 100%. Even US (which openly boasted about its flights being late) has staffed up for the holidays. The lack of customer service is very un-WN-like and disturbing if it exemplifies the new management thinking. :td:

You do understand that corporate storytelling involves a fair share of marketing, don't you?

You mean that WN is LYING?!? Either they're telling the truth or lying -- period!

On the topic of holiday staffing, WN does not do a very good job. WN's PHX operation is a nightmare during peak times. Amazing how US can figure out PHX staffing, but WN -- the "far superior airline" as many say -- cannot.

To Boraxo's points, there is a priority line at OAK. It's called Terminal 1. Even when Terminal 1 is bad, Terminal 2 is far worse. I kick myself when I forget this, once in line at Terminal 2 (when I've already mostly waded through it).

Better yet, for the time being, OAK's priority line is SFO. It was a breeze at commute hour the other evening. And also for the time being, I'm finding very good short notice fares (equalling Ding, but for next day travel) available there much more frequently than for OAK.

Don't know if "for the time being" = "until the bloom is off the rose" of WN entering that market again, or until Virgin America stops its lowballing - or both - but it's now my preference "for the time being".

Did not get a "holiday gift" of double credit for December like we got the last two years?

I don't care whether Southwest goes back to its roots (fares that are always lower than the legacies, generous FF program, egalitarian boarding, etc.) or becomes completely like a legacy airline. If either of those happen, I'll start flying them again. But this middle ground they're trying to live in right now is absolutely going to kill them.

You mean that WN is LYING?!? Either they're telling the truth or lying -- period!

That wasn't my point. I don't think WN started with those concise goals in mind, though they certainly became the bedrock of the airline.

That said, it is ridiculous to believe that on-time performance, value and good customer service are important to only leisure travelers.

I don't care whether Southwest goes back to its roots (fares that are always lower than the legacies, generous FF program, egalitarian boarding, etc.) or becomes completely like a legacy airline. If either of those happen, I'll start flying them again. But this middle ground they're trying to live in right now is absolutely going to kill them.

I disagree. I believe legacy airlines will also move to the middle ground because that's what makes economic sense.

As legacy customers realize that their miles are almost more trouble than they're worth due to capacity controls, Rapid Rewards will become more of an attraction as well.

You certainly had a frustrating experience. I've had similar problems when I check bags, particularly at OAK. However, I think LUV is better than ever for business travelers which is what you were writing about. Why? Most business travelers on LUV are on short trips and take carry on only. A-Listers can now count on good seats with room to check luggage (no need to hangr around a computer at the magic hour - a BIG improvement). And how about a little more credit for the Companion Pass (nothing like it on the others) and the flexibility to change deep discount tickets w/o penalty?

They DO need priority check-in and security and the machines ARE frequently out of service. But LUV still beats the others (who have also made free ticket access a problem and their "free" upgrades impossible if you fly to/from a hub). Keep it up LUV. You're on to something.

I disagree. I believe legacy airlines will also move to the middle ground because that's what makes economic sense.

As legacy customers realize that their miles are almost more trouble than they're worth due to capacity controls, Rapid Rewards will become more of an attraction as well.


It's easier for legacy airlines to move to a middle ground, as their business passenger model is easy enough to adapt for leisure travelers as well (strip away all the perks, drop the price, and voila - leisure travelers). It's much harder for WN as a LCC to shift from a leisure market towards a business market.

I disagree. I believe legacy airlines will also move to the middle ground because that's what makes economic sense.


:rolleyes:

Now you're just dreaming. There's no way the legacy airlines will go to some b*st*rd hybrid.

You're looking at this as though the world revolves around WN. Airlines like AA or UA have to compete with not only airlines in the US, but against foriegn carriers as well. Intl business travellers expect a lot more than RR points and A1-15 BP's.


As legacy customers realize that their miles are almost more trouble than they're worth due to capacity controls, Rapid Rewards will become more of an attraction as well.

Hmmm. Again, there seems to be wishful/myopic thinking on your part. I just redeemed some AA miles for a J flight to LHR with little trouble. My mom is flying on an UA J award ticket to AMS in a few months.

If you spend all you time on WN, what you may not notice is that the legacy FF programs are actually becoming more diverse. Miles are becoming a sort of currency where they can be redeemed for goods/services outside of air travel.

A great example of this is the AAdvantage program. Through points.com AA miles seem to have the most value of any FF program out there. Miles can be exchanged for almost anything.

On a related topic, the State of California no longer contracts with Southwest for airfare. The previous contract wasn't that great a deal (at least as a flier)--the refundable government airfare was only a small discount off the full-fare, and still lacked the "free standby" on earlier/later flights feature. I used to buy the el cheapo fares if I knew I wouldn't need to cancel.

Still, it was surprising to me to see Southwest off the lists. Perhaps they think with their scheduling dominance in many major intra-California markets, they'll continue to get a large amount of the State's business travel. Or perhaps (although this seems hard to believe) the State was not a big enough customer to justify them continuing the contract. Or...?

Anyway, a big chunk of business travel potentially less on Southwest now:

http://www.travel.dgs.ca.gov/Airlines/default.htm

-Hayden

I disagree. I believe legacy airlines will also move to the middle ground because that's what makes economic sense.

As legacy customers realize that their miles are almost more trouble than they're worth due to capacity controls, Rapid Rewards will become more of an attraction as well.

I'm not so sure about this. The big *devaluation* part of the new paradigm is the flipside of the new "Freedom Awards" -- that is the "Standard Awards". Those would be the ones with..... capacity controls (which at a glance indicates "like all the other airlines"). I've dealt with capacity control on Southwest twice lately - and not adjacent to the holidays - so it's not hypothetical. Yes, capacity control was phased in earlier, but the new paradigm puts lights on it. I actually think Southwest led with its chin on this one. And they introduced Freedom Awards with "a few" blackouts (!). What were they thinking? They could have introduced them with no blackouts, and then a year from now done an enhancement...

I use curb-side check-in at LAS all the time and it is much faster than the inside check-in. You might try that at OAK. For $1/bag its well worth the time savings.

If I ever did have a BS fare (unlikely) and I saw two lines, I'd choose the line I thought I would get through the fastest. The idea that you can't bring a luggage cart into one line or the other seems arbitary to me.

I still prefer WN over F9 because of the change fee difference, but I'll fly F9, change fee and all, when they have a non-stop vs. WN's one-stop (with or without aircraft change). Nothing beats a non-stop if you are comparing the same class of service.

:rolleyes:
Now you're just dreaming. There's no way the legacy airlines will go to some b*st*rd hybrid.

One thing that may work is the "airline within an airline" model, e.g. Ted. A sub-fleet marketed as an LCC that operates in low-yield markets, but is otherwise fully integrated with the main carrier, seems a clever idea. I don't know how Ted has been working out financially for United, but this is one way a legacy airline can move towards a "hybrid" model. But the idea doesn't apply to Southwest.

Someone over at Oakland must have gotten the memo that this was a Holiday weekend. When I flew back to Oakland on Wed, I arrived around the same time I checked in. While waiting for bags to arrive, I quickly walked over to the check-in counters. What a difference. No Line (well maybe 3 people in it) and 10 people working the exact same line I had been in not 2 days before.

I still stand by post. WN needs to do more to cater to the "Business Travelers". There are 'easy' things WN could do like install a BS check-in line.

As for people who stated that I should have gone out and checked my bags curbside. That is an option but when I am flying on a full fare I think the price I pay should include great service. I would have been through in half the time if they would have just let me use the self check-in machines!

That is an option but when I am flying on a full fare I think the price I pay should include great service.

Price paid should be irrelevant in that respect.

One thing that may work is the "airline within an airline" model, e.g. Ted. A sub-fleet marketed as an LCC that operates in low-yield markets, but is otherwise fully integrated with the main carrier, seems a clever idea. I don't know how Ted has been working out financially for United, but this is one way a legacy airline can move towards a "hybrid" model. But the idea doesn't apply to Southwest.

not sure this model has worked that well. not sure how Ted is doing by the numbers, but I don't see the model expanding that rapidly. the failure of Song by Delta and the lack of new similar entrants by AA, US, CO, etc. suggests that perhaps it isn't such a great idea

]the failure of Song by Delta and the lack of new similar entrants by AA, US, CO, etc. suggests that perhaps it isn't such a great idea

In the cases of US and CO, they already tried and failed with MetroJet and Continental Lite, respectively.

I flew US this weekend and they had a guy handing out popcorn and sodas at the checkin lanes in PHL.

I'm confused as to how an experience by a traveler with a Smart Carte full of luggage over Thanksgiving weekend would somehow relate to what the typical business traveler experiences. :confused:

I'm confused as to how an experience by a traveler with a Smart Carte full of luggage over Thanksgiving weekend would somehow relate to what the typical business traveler experiences. :confused:

Sometimes those of us traveling with others have to do things differently.

I will once again point to my AA experience. When traveling with others, I use the FC line. I can quickly go up with my Smart Carte, check-in and go through security.

Sometimes those of us traveling with others have to do things differently.

I will once again point to my AA experience. When traveling with others, I use the FC line. I can quickly go up with my Smart Carte, check-in and go through security.That still doesn't explain how your experience on Thanksgiving weekend with a bunch of checked luggage relates to what a business traveler would experience. Do you think business travelers are too dumb to realize that their airport experience is probably not going to be the same on a business trip as over Thanksgiving weekend?

One thing Southwest has proved to me is that they have achieved the balance between "keeping what works", and not being afraid to try new things.

As a business traveler, the unattended baggage in boarding areas left by people who wanted to stake their claims in the A and B lines was a huge deterrent for me. The new boarding process has removed that.

One reason Southwest keeps winning more business from me is that they keep getting me to and from my destinations with minor amounts of drama. I only fly them about 20 times a year, but that has grown from only a few flights in just three or four years.

Every airport has its own issues, but the airline as a whole continues to impress me.

That still doesn't explain how your experience on Thanksgiving weekend with a bunch of checked luggage relates to what a business traveler would experience. Do you think business travelers are too dumb to realize that their airport experience is probably not going to be the same on a business trip as over Thanksgiving weekend?

I consider myself a pretty savy traveler. 90+% of my flights on WN are Full Fare. I expect WN to understand the market, understand the number of people traveling and understand that is a Holiday Weekend.

I dont like to be pushed to the 'slow' line just because I have a cart with luggage on it. Sorry, but my 4 year old cant pull everything.

The fact is, that flight was a Full Fare RT for me. I got pushed over to the 'special services line' just because they didnt want me in the other line with my cart. As an A-Lister and CP holder, I would expect better service.

We can agree to disagree but there are times when as a business traveler I need to wait in line. And when I do, I expect the type of treatment, well I really expect better from WN, that I currently get from AA.

I fly Southwest for business a lot (about 45 flights over the past 8 months). Usually on the cheapest fair I can get 3 weeks out. I am also AA platinum, and WN wins me due to their no change fee. I am a consultant, and if I want to fly off to Vegas for a weekend rather than back home, I do not want to have to pay a change fee.

The area WN really irks me, is the fee for standby. When I fly a connecting flight, and an earlier flight is available with seats for the 2nd leg, having to pay a fee for the flight makes absolutely no sense. If I did not take so many weekends away, this would be a deal breaker for me, and I am sure many consultants who require 2 leg flights home through hubs, who do not do not change booked flights, avoid WN for this reason.

I think if the legacies did some research, they would be surprised at much business they lose due to $100 change fees. Quite often, someone will want to change their business travel plans, without a good enough reason to ask their employer to pay for the change fee. The first airline to introduce no change fee, and free standby (along with pay for confirmed seat), will win my business if they fly my route.

Most leisure travelers will always fly the cheapest airline within their timeframe. WN does not have to cater to them, as these people will not pay an extra $200 to fly AA or United, just because they are now A28.

The reason behind the standby "upgrade" charge is explained in the FAQ (http://flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php/Standby_rules_%28SWA%29).

I fly Southwest for business a lot (about 45 flights over the past 8 months). Usually on the cheapest fair I can get 3 weeks out. I am also AA platinum, and WN wins me due to their no change fee. I am a consultant, and if I want to fly off to Vegas for a weekend rather than back home, I do not want to have to pay a change fee.

The area WN really irks me, is the fee for standby. When I fly a connecting flight, and an earlier flight is available with seats for the 2nd leg, having to pay a fee for the flight makes absolutely no sense. If I did not take so many weekends away, this would be a deal breaker for me, and I am sure many consultants who require 2 leg flights home through hubs, who do not do not change booked flights, avoid WN for this reason.

I think if the legacies did some research, they would be surprised at much business they lose due to $100 change fees. Quite often, someone will want to change their business travel plans, without a good enough reason to ask their employer to pay for the change fee. The first airline to introduce no change fee, and free standby (along with pay for confirmed seat), will win my business if they fly my route.

Most leisure travelers will always fly the cheapest airline within their timeframe. WN does not have to cater to them, as these people will not pay an extra $200 to fly AA or United, just because they are now A28.

I think there are a lot more people out there than the legacies realize that have caught on to the change fee scam and the legacies push so much of their business away and over to Southwest. It is surprising that there isn't one legacy carrier who has the guts to drop the change fees and see if it doesn't generate more business than it costs them in fees.

I have an upcoming trip at the end of January where the need to go is uncertain. On Southwest, it was $79 one way. If the need changes, I haven't lost a thing. Had I booked that on another airline, I would have lost either most ($50 change fee) or all ($100 change fee) of its value. Nobody likes to buy something and then not be able to use it. The comfort of knowing it is usable within a year whether I go or not is a blessing.

Yes, I do wish that Southwest had a same-day change fee that was less than buying up to full fare. They could have a $35 day-of-the-flight change fee, but make you buy up to the full fare if you wanted to go the day before or the day after your scheduled flight date. That would be nice. But, I'm just glad that Southwest exists with the no change fee the way it is. Day-of-the flight change fee would be an improvement, but I guess we can't have everything.

By the same logic that Southwest wins business from the legacies by having no change fee, I think they would win more business from the legacies by having a day-of-the-flight reasonable change fee.

The reason behind the standby "upgrade" charge is explained in the FAQ (http://flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php/Standby_rules_%28SWA%29).
That reason for no standby is great on paper, but seems a bit strange to me. If I go standby, I do not expect to get a seat, I hope to get a seat. The idea that I would be happy to buy a seat on the last flight of the day, and attempt to get a seat on an earlier peak flight, knowing full well that I may be stuck waiting at the airport for 4 hours, seems a bit strange. I guess some people would be prepared to do this, but surely not too many.

Also, this excuse does not correspond to being turned down for standby halfway through a journey. Quite often, there is no choice of booking the earlier second leg, as it is too close to the first leg, however if I have no checked luggage, and make the second flight, I see no reason for Southwest not to give me a seat on the earlier flight.