Practical Travel Safety Issues - New ludicrous electronics out at TSA Checkpoint

Just checked into CVG and TSA informs us all that we are required to take out all electronics now... not just laptops, but cables, pdas, etc. I carry about 30 separate pieces of "electronic" equipment.

I took out all that I thought I had, but forgot a bluetooth earpiece and some cables... had to pull out, hand inspect and rescan... then had to repack all that crap.

This is at Terminal 2 at CVG... can't wait to see this at ORD or a large airport... here come 3 hour scan lines again!

:mad:

Is this a response to the embarrassing news of TSA getting burned?

Is this a response to the embarrassing news of TSA getting burned?

probably...

now the first casualty.... TSA is now paging for anyone who left a LAPTOP at the security checkpoint....

I can see it happening as you put away your other 30 pieces of "electronics"

CVG, LEX, and SDF have, in my experience, been far more authoritarian than many other airports. CVG was the airport where CBP lined up everybody that was trying to leave by stopping the lines to hand in your Customs card, then walked two separate dogs down the lines. They then started accepting cards again, but it was a 10 minute delay.

They also engaged in retaliatory secondaries back before the shoe ban if you didn't voluntarily take the shoes off. "It's a random search, and maybe it'll teach you to follow our recommendations next time".

now this electronics garbage coupled with ma and pa kettle should make the holidays oh so fun!

I predict three hour security lines... now we just need bad weather to come into play too

yuk ... anyone seen this happening at MIA ??

No recommendation according to CVG TSA; it's a REQUIREMENT.

We are slipping into Fascism out of our fear... did anyone see the South Park where the terrorist have invaded our Imagination? So the government decides to nuke our Imagination.

WooHoo!

You've got to be kidding me. I'm off to China tomorrow, and I carry a ridiculous amount of electronics -- laptop with accessories, two digital still cameras, with accessories, video camera, with accessories, a cellphone, with accessories, a blackberry, with accessories, a PDA, with accessories, and so on.

I'm going to refuse to do it. They can do a secondary on my camera bag and carry on.

I protested vigorously, appealing to common sense, saying that this is only going to extend out the lines at security and that they will have to rescan everyone as they will inevitably forget about one thing or another.

The response? We won't be upset if you take out more than what is required.

I said that we should just take everything out for their inspection and clearance as acceptable.

They said," Yes."

Leaving on the CVG-IAD flight now. Adios.

I'm buying a bigger boat... this is ridiculous.

I've already started flying Seabourne Airlines to the USVI/BVI since there's no TSA checkpoints on seaplanes.

Is this a response to the embarrassing news of TSA getting burned?

If the practice becomes wide-spread over the next week, I would say yes. But, we can't rule out individual acts of stupidity/power trips. Also, I would expect this new, initiative, if it were official, to be accompanied by a TSA media blitz.

CVG, LEX, and SDF have, in my experience, been far more authoritarian than many other airports. CVG was the airport where CBP lined up everybody that was trying to leave by stopping the lines to hand in your Customs card, then walked two separate dogs down the lines. They then started accepting cards again, but it was a 10 minute delay.

They also engaged in retaliatory secondaries back before the shoe ban if you didn't voluntarily take the shoes off. "It's a random search, and maybe it'll teach you to follow our recommendations next time".
Is there something idiotic about the state of Kentucky that I don't know about?

Is there something idiotic about the state of Kentucky that I don't know about?

There's a joke there somewhere.

If this is indeed spread across all the airports (they wouldn't do this at just one, two or three airports, would they? :rolleyes:), wait until the lines get ridiculously long again, then the TSA will realize they have bad PR on their hands.

I keep all my carry-on electronics in a one or more clear ziploc freezer bags (gallon size). Has solved problem for me re secondary searches, unless I happen to get caught on a true "random".

Oh, and I did have one TSO bark at me that I could only use quart-size ziplocs, until I kindly pointed out that my gallon bag was full of electronics, not liquids. He sheepishly replied, "Oh." and let me pass with no further discussion.

I would recommend the separate ziploc(s) with all your electronics to any traveler.

now the first casualty.... TSA is now paging for anyone who left a LAPTOP at the security checkpoint....

An "unaccompanied article" in an airport? :eek: In the middle of the TSA? Does it say "ACME" on the laptop? :p Think of the children! Danger! Al Kider left his laptop on purpose. Call the bomb squad, TERMINAL DUMP IMMEDIATELY, can't be too careful!!!!! :eek:

Once again, the time is more than suspicious. One would almost think that they want a backlash to bring about change (Bart?). Still, I'm glad to not be flying for work until the week after Thanksgiving. With two of us flying with rolling camera cases filled with lenses & bodies plus small backpacks with Powerbooks, we should be tying up the line for 10 minutes each.
I've broached the question before and I'll ask it again. How come when our bags go through the x-ray at CDG, LGW, or LHR they say nice cameras but here call out "bag check"?

With my camera bag FULL of expensive equipment, I am just so happy to empty the entire thing into a bin to let very costly lenses roll around. :mad:

Just checked into CVG and TSA informs us all that we are required to take out all electronics now... not just laptops, but cables, pdas, etc. I carry about 30 separate pieces of "electronic" equipment.

I took out all that I thought I had, but forgot a bluetooth earpiece and some cables... had to pull out, hand inspect and rescan... then had to repack all that crap.

This is at Terminal 2 at CVG... can't wait to see this at ORD or a large airport... here come 3 hour scan lines again!



The TSA will be repacking my bags.

wait until the lines get ridiculously long again, then the TSA will realize they have bad PR on their hands.[/QUOTE]

Hahahahaha does anyone really think the TSA cares about bad PR? If that were really the case then they would have cleaned up their act along time ago. The entire screening program is a joke and these are the people that are supposed to be protecting us. God help us all.

I've broached the question before and I'll ask it again. How come when our bags go through the x-ray at CDG, LGW, or LHR they say nice cameras but here call out "bag check"?

Because folks over the pond exhibit manners (even the French!), professionalism, common sense. Plus, photography is a legitimate profession.

Here suspicion is SOP. And photography? Well unless you work for Penthouse, you're employing the tools of terrorism. :rolleyes:

We were planning on flying out to see my folks for Christmas vacation but earlier this week MrsJ announced that she didn't want to deal with airport, TSA and rental car hassles so we're going to drive. Great! I have a legitimate excuse for buying that new GPS unit on Black Friday! :D Our SUV has navi but I wanted to compare how the portable ones work for use in my car. A 4-state trip ought to be a good test :p

One obviously (for safety of the item) needs to put each item into a separate bin, just like you do with the laptop. That means that I will need: 1) laptop; 2) earphones; 3) video patch cable; 4) blackberry; 5) PowerPoint remote control; 6) memory stick; 7) plane power; 8) ac power; 9) blackberry charger; 10) shoes; 11) liquids. Then I will need space on the belt for my laptop case and for my suitcase. They better buy more bins.

One obviously (for safety of the item) needs to put each item into a separate bin, just like you do with the laptop. That means that I will need: 1) laptop; 2) earphones; 3) video patch cable; 4) blackberry; 5) PowerPoint remote control; 6) memory stick; 7) plane power; 8) ac power; 9) blackberry charger; 10) shoes; 11) liquids. Then I will need space on the belt for my laptop case and for my suitcase. They better buy more bins.

The bin running TSO will surely get a workout!

The bin running TSO will surely get a workout!

The more amusing part (depending on how you look at it, I guess) will be the influx of complaints regarding expensive things getting broken at the checkpoint.

Has anyone confirmed this has occurred anywhere except CVG?

Sounds like another rogue screener, and the OP should have called a supervisor or manager over...

Having said that, the TSA is getting horrible press this week with one story after the other going on and on about their failures, then you have the chief idiot being grilled (not effectively enough, mind you) by Congress.

Rather than take accountability for their own incompetence and failure, they will just figure out how to stick it to the passenger and make our lives worse.

Time to get rid of this agency. TSA be gone!!

OMG...

I'll carry MacBook Pro, Wireless Mighty Mouse, iPhone, unlocked GSM phone, PSP, Canon 1D Mk3, Flash, Samsung NV10 p&s digital camera, Bose QC2, Memory Card Reader, Portable Storage Unit, and bunch of cables next week for my vacation/MR. If they want me to take out all of those, then well... It will take most of the table leading to x-ray machine.

I'll take secondary as well. I'm not taking all of those out and repacking them.

With my camera bag FULL of expensive equipment, I am just so happy to empty the entire thing into a bin to let very costly lenses roll around. :mad:Exactly. I'm also not about to put my digital camera equipment in a dusty, dirty bin. Aside from the electronics issues, I hold these cameras up to my eye and god only knows what's been in those bins.

I'll take secondary as well. I'm not taking all of those out and repacking them.

Maybe that's exactly what they are doing: providing an option so ridiculous that we would be HAPPY to have the secondary if offered over that.

Sort of like saying, "I can chop off your arm or pinch your butt. Your pick, but I have to do one or the other." The person making such a generous offer knows which one you are likely to pick. The person making the offer likely made the alternate choice so stupid so as to force you into letting him do exactly what he wanted to do in the first place, which was to pinch your butt.

Exactly. I'm also not about to put my digital camera equipment in a dusty, dirty bin. Aside from the electronics issues, I hold these cameras up to my eye and god only knows what's been in those bins.

Aww c'mon now!

I swear I scrape the cow patties off my shoes before walking on the nice shiny airport floor. Honest!! :D

Exactly. I'm also not about to put my digital camera equipment in a dusty, dirty bin. Aside from the electronics issues, I hold these cameras up to my eye and god only knows what's been in those bins.

And that's IF your lenses don't break with being rolled around.

I really got unhappy at Houston a few weeks ago when an agent pulled my equipment bag from the belt and started pawing through it, picking up one of the cameras, etc.

I don't know what good that would have done her. Her search was just a random, haphazard poking-through. Had I wanted to smuggle anything in, I could have.

I like the baggie idea - help me organize stuff, too. One baggie for all my phone accessories, one for all my still camera stuff, one for all my video stuff, etc. That way they don't roll around, won't get handled/lost by TSOs, won't touch dirty bins. I love the gallon bag of electronics story!

Has anyone confirmed this has occurred anywhere except CVG?

Sounds like another rogue screener, and the OP should have called a supervisor or manager over...

Having said that, the TSA is getting horrible press this week with one story after the other going on and on about their failures, then you have the chief idiot being grilled (not effectively enough, mind you) by Congress.

Rather than take accountability for their own incompetence and failure, they will just figure out how to stick it to the passenger and make our lives worse.

Time to get rid of this agency. TSA be gone!!

I'm at IAD now... it was not a rogue screener but the entire security point staff repeating the mantra: "all electronics out, new policy as of today... for your safety we need all electronics out."

I overheard idiotic stuff like "does it have a transistor" spew out of the TSA staff and "does electricity or battery power run through it...

So Bart, can you clear this up? What is going on? Taking ALL electronics out and going through them seems excessive.

I like the baggie idea - help me organize stuff, too. One baggie for all my phone accessories, one for all my still camera stuff, one for all my video stuff, etc. That way they don't roll around, won't get handled/lost by TSOs, won't touch dirty bins. I love the gallon bag of electronics story!Unfortunately, it wouldn't work for me -- my equipment is carefully stowed in a variety of compartments in my camera backpack and my large, TUMI rollaboard.

Sounds like it's another round of "let's punish the passengers for our incompetence" at the TSA :mad::mad::mad:

I wonder if the Committee will quiz Herr Kip on that one - why are passengers being punished by the TSA's for its operational failures?

Time for civil disobedience on this one.

Show up early, refuse to remove anything except the laptop. A screener then has to tie themselves up with you and the lines will really back up then, which will make the TSA look even stupider and more inefficient than they already are.

Screw them. Screw them and the horse they rode in on.

hmmm ... so if the security lines at MIA E were backed up to the airport hotel before all this ... the line must start this week at ... South Beach or so .... :D

Time for civil disobedience on this one.

Show up early, refuse to remove anything except the laptop. A screener then has to tie themselves up with you and the lines will really back up then, which will make the TSA look even stupider and more inefficient than they already are.

Screw them. Screw them and the horse they rode in on.

have a few hundred bucks (maybe more) ready for the fine though ... not arguing with you Spiff ... just saying ...

Time for civil disobedience on this one.

Show up early, refuse to remove anything except the laptop. A screener then has to tie themselves up with you and the lines will really back up then, which will make the TSA look even stupider and more inefficient than they already are.

Screw them. Screw them and the horse they rode in on.

They haven't been able to find the Kippy Bag full of bottles and tubes I bury in the middle of my luggage - not once. I doubt they will find the iPod and cell phone I'll be burying right along side it.

Not the case at CMH TSA checkpoint a couple of hours ago. YMMV.

have a few hundred bucks (maybe more) ready for the fine though ... not arguing with you Spiff ... just saying ...

They cannot assess a fine on this one.

"So sorry. I forgot." Give them the cold look of death while saying that.

I'm at IAD now... it was not a rogue screener but the entire security point staff repeating the mantra: "all electronics out, new policy as of today... for your safety we need all electronics out."

I overheard idiotic stuff like "does it have a transistor" spew out of the TSA staff and "does electricity or battery power run through it...

Great....... :mad: we've seen this a few times here and there http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=721659 and it is a WICKED pain when you have to go through it. We have 2 carryons containing nothing but electronics - computers & camera equipment. When we have had to do it there are several issues: 1) keeping an eye on all of it while you are going through the usual BS is impossible. 2) keeping the TSO's from manhandling it (we had one drop a hard drive into a bin like a pair of old shoes) and 3) to repack it all properly takes a long time.
All in all it is a bonafide PITA. :td:

Screw them. Screw them and the horse they rode in on.

Not the horse Spiff. Leave the poor horse out of it. :)

Not the horse Spiff. Leave the poor horse out of it. :)

I suppose you're right. :)

Screw 'em twice then. ;)

Maybe that's exactly what they are doing: providing an option so ridiculous that we would be HAPPY to have the secondary if offered over that.

Sort of like saying, "I can chop off your arm or pinch your butt. Your pick, but I have to do one or the other." The person making such a generous offer knows which one you are likely to pick. The person making the offer likely made the alternate choice so stupid so as to force you into letting him do exactly what he wanted to do in the first place, which was to pinch your butt.

They will know that I'm unhappy with this and I will ask for complaint form.

Just checked into CVG and TSA informs us all that we are required to take out all electronics now... not just laptops, but cables, pdas, etc. I carry about 30 separate pieces of "electronic" equipment.

Since when are cables electronics?

Since when are cables electronics?

They carry electrons, don't they? :rolleyes:

(that's the kind of logic that Idiot Boy Hawley would use to train his minions.)

Since when are cables electronics?

Since the TSA labeled cheesecake a liquid silly!

Since the TSA labeled cheesecake a liquid silly!

That's a "semiconductor" too, Comrade!

I'm at IAD now... it was not a rogue screener but the entire security point staff repeating the mantra: "all electronics out, new policy as of today... for your safety we need all electronics out."

I overheard idiotic stuff like "does it have a transistor" spew out of the TSA staff and "does electricity or battery power run through it...

What if every item in a bag falls under the electronics category?

I don't have any travel until after thanksgiving, but if I'm told all electronics must come out, I'll just put my bag on the belt (minus laptop) and let them sort through it.

I often travel with a large amount of computer equipment, network devices, storage devices, CAT5 cables, plugs/adapters, numerous USB devices, PDAs, mobile phones, Voice over WiFi phones, various battery chargers, photography equipment, etc.

What do they want me to do, send 25 bins through? :D

Since when are cables electronics?

They are "electronics" because, what they really mean is "anything that could be used as a component in an IED."

(NOTE: I don't agree with the idiocy. But that doesn't mean that I can't explain some of their thinking.)

What do they want me to do, send 25 bins through? :D

Sorry, that's what you get for coming late and not reading everything. See Post #21.

It doesn't yet announce the new policy, but here is a new IED webpage that the TSA apparently created today (11/15/07):

http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/tsa_ied_mitigation.shtm

What if every item in a bag falls under the electronics category?

I don't have any travel until after thanksgiving, but if I'm told all electronics must come out, I'll just put my bag on the belt (minus laptop) and let them sort through it.

I often travel with a large amount of computer equipment, network devices, storage devices, CAT5 cables, plugs/adapters, numerous USB devices, PDAs, mobile phones, Voice over WiFi phones, various battery chargers, photography equipment, etc.

What do they want me to do, send 25 bins through? :D

Just from our experience I would not recommend this if your equipment is valuable. The TSO we dealt with was royally p*ssed that we didn't "follow directions" and was very rough with everything - and would not let us unpack the bag ourselves at that point....

I suppose we should've seen this coming - let's see how long the checkpoints can sustain picking over every single iPod, cell phone etc. I don't believe there are the (on site) staff/resources for this to work for more than a few days without horror stories emerging that'll make them look even worse ... which is why they pulled back from doing it before. :rolleyes:

As usual, the desk jockeys @ HQ come up with the brilliant ideas that the frontline workers get to deal with.

It doesn't yet announce the new policy, but here is a new IED webpage that the TSA apparently created today (11/15/07):

http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/tsa_ied_mitigation.shtm

Too bad Kip Hawley's Mom didn't use an IUD.......

Sorry, that's what you get for coming late and not reading everything. See Post #21.

That's only 11 bins :p

I suppose we should've seen this coming - let's see how long the checkpoints can sustain picking over every single iPod, cell phone etc. I don't believe there are the (on site) staff/resources for this to work for more than a few days without horror stories emerging that'll make them look even worse ... which is why they pulled back from doing it before. :rolleyes:

As usual, the desk jockeys @ HQ come up with the brilliant ideas that the frontline workers get to deal with.Wonder if there is an Electronics Kippie bag in our future.......... what gallon sized maybe?? All kidding aside I am worried about that very thing. For example - 1 laptop and one gallon sized bag for electronics.........

Waiting for Bart....

Wonder if there is an Electronics Kippie bag in our future.......... what gallon sized maybe?? All kidding aside I am worried about that very thing. For example - 1 laptop and one gallon sized bag for electronics.........

One bag per Administrator. Preferrably nothing breathable.

The only good thing: they're doing this idiocy leading into the massive holiday crush of fliers. That is going to really tick off a lot of Ma and Pa Kettles, making new enemies for the TSA out of all sorts who'd never had a grumble before.

Clearly, this is a dumb reaction by the TSA to the GSO finding their checkpoints to be so many sieves. :td: :mad:

I'm buying a bigger boat... this is ridiculous.

I've already started flying Seabourne Airlines to the USVI/BVI since there's no TSA checkpoints on seaplanes.

Oh, no! Now the terrorists know this, too!

It doesn't yet announce the new policy, but here is a new IED webpage that the TSA apparently created today (11/15/07):

http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/tsa_ied_mitigation.shtm

Following the link to "Millimeter Wave" the picture shows a blurred body, but the text states "The three-dimensional image of the body, with facial features blurred for privacy...".

So, is this a change from the original promise to blur the body? Will young women be preferentially chosen for secondary screenings?

Following the link to "Millimeter Wave" the picture shows a blurred body, but the text states "The three-dimensional image of the body, with facial features blurred for privacy...".

So, is this a change from the original promise to blur the body? Will young women be preferentially chosen for secondary screenings?

Reports have said the images generated (not the example on tsahouseoflies.gov) leave little to the imagination.

"You've been chosen for millimeter wave screening."

"And you've been chosen to go pound sand."

I'm not subjecting myself to this device.

Reports have said the images generated (not the example on tsahouseoflies.gov) leave little to the imagination.

Perhaps, I'm mis-remembering or didn't see the germane posts (I'm new here), but I thought another poster saw the explicit images at Sheremetyevo while the TSA was saying their machines would be set to blur body images.

Perhaps the TSA has decided to follow the shining example of Russia.

They carry electrons, don't they? :rolleyes:So do keys, the top of my lighter, my watch band and the frames of my glasses.

(that's the kind of logic that Idiot Boy Hawley would use to train his minions.)Well there's something you don't see every day: use of the word "logic" in the same sentence with "Hawley."

Perhaps, I'm mis-remembering or didn't see the germane posts (I'm new here), but I thought another poster saw the explicit images at Sheremetyevo while the TSA was saying their machines would be set to blur body images.

Perhaps the TSA has decided to follow the shining example of Russia.I've already had melanoma once. I'm not about to let anyone subject my skin to x-ray radiation.

Oh, no! Now the terrorists know this, too!
Well, I guess I should still get a bigger boat... preferably one capable of doing the 1000 miles to the mainland.. lol.

The 40 miles from Fajardo to St. Thomas are tough in a 26 footer, with the 15 miles to Tortola even worse... I don't wanna imagine crossing to the mainland in that :(

Not the horse Spiff. Leave the poor horse out of it. :)

"Not the livestock, George!"

(Apologies to O! Brother Where Art Thou?)

Too bad Kip Hawley's Mom didn't use an IUD.......don't you mean ied? ;)

don't you mean ied? ;)

Well that would have worked after the fact I suppose.......

As of today, 11/15/07, we have not begun this procedure at Houston Hobby. Whether or not that shall change is up in the air as policy can change overnight. However, if this is a new system wide process, it makes sense given the recent bad press and fumbles. I'd wager that some of the agents who breached the airport CPs had IED components concealed in electronics that are/were not currently being screened. As a result, we now have to be more thorough and screen these items at the inconvenience of the public. Terrorists and covert agents aren't using ACME Co. gag bombs anymore, the IEDs and methods used to conceal them and their components are more sophisticated than ever. In response, so must be our screening techniques which must correlate with the latest threats. You all can't have it both ways; you want effective security screening procedures but you don't want to endure the process that comes along with it. If any of you all can think of ways to screen for IEDs and their components which cover all the threat areas (liquids, shoes, electronics, etc.) without inconveniencing you the passenger I'd love to hear it and pass it on.

Time for civil disobedience on this one.

Show up early, refuse to remove anything except the laptop. A screener then has to tie themselves up with you and the lines will really back up then, which will make the TSA look even stupider and more inefficient than they already are.

Screw them. Screw them and the horse they rode in on.

Yes, yes, please do that Spiff. As TSOs are paid hourly you'd only be inconveniencing yourself and fellow passengers. Way to make a potentially long and contentious process that much more long and contentious! Now, tell me exactly how that makes the TSA look stupid?

you want effective security screening procedures

Ahh, so TSA does know what we want. There's still hope! ;)

Also, welcome !TSA No Play!

Ahh, so TSA does know what we want. There's still hope! ;)

Also, welcome !TSA No Play!

Yes, and despite the flying publics unwarranted hatred for the front line TSOs doing their jobs, we do our best to provide effective screening despite the odds stacked against us.

And I graciously accept your welcome.

Yes, and despite the flying publics unwarranted hatred for the front line TSOs doing their jobs, we do our best to provide effective screening despite the odds stacked against us.

And I graciously accept your welcome.Unwarranted? maybe you should read a few more threads before you jump to that conclusion...
Before you get all flag waving about it realize that your experience with YOUR home airport may be very different from the experiences of others at other airports.... yours may be fine. I've not been to Hobby recently so I can't say. But some are NOT fine.... not by a long stretch.

There are 43,000 TSOs employed by TSA; you're telling me that hatred is warranted for all 43,000 of us because of bad experiences with most likely less than 2% of them? Yes, that makes perfect sense. My ex girlfriend really did a number on me, perhaps I should hate all women too. :rolleyes:

There are 43,000 TSOs employed by TSA; you're telling me that hatred is warranted for all 43,000 of us because of bad experiences with most likely less than 2% of them? Yes, that makes perfect sense. My ex girlfriend really did a number on me, perhaps I should hate all women too. :rolleyes:Nope... not all but certainly more than a few. You said the public has an unwarranted hatred. I am saying I don't think it is unwarranted - there is a reason that so many people have a problem with the way you folks do business. It's because many of your comrades are unprofessional bullying @$$holes. Some are fine - even exceptional folks (the ones at TUS are great).... but there are others who absolutely warrant disgust.

Nope... not all but certainly more than a few. You said the public has an unwarranted hatred. I am saying I don't think it is unwarranted - there is a reason that so many people have a problem with the way you folks do business. It's because many of your comrades are unprofessional bullying @$$holes. Some are fine - even exceptional folks (the ones at TUS are great).... but there are others who absolutely warrant disgust.

It is unwarranted hate if it's directed at an entire screening force. I think that's silly and some people are so caught up in their anti-TSA agenda they are willing to act in a way that is counterproductive not only to TSA but to themselves and other airline passengers.

It is unwarranted hate if it's directed at an entire screening force. I think that's silly and some people are so caught up in their anti-TSA agenda they are willing to act in a way that is counterproductive not only to TSA but to themselves and other airline passengers.
I find it best to treat TSOs like snakes. I consider them a threat until proven otherwise. As for counterproductive........ Ahhh... yeah. Like I said - read a little more.

As of today, 11/15/07, we have not begun this procedure at Houston Hobby. Whether or not that shall change is up in the air as policy can change overnight. However, if this is a new system wide process, it makes sense given the recent bad press and fumbles. I'd wager that some of the agents who breached the airport CPs had IED components concealed in electronics that are/were not currently being screened. As a result, we now have to be more thorough and screen these items at the inconvenience of the public. Terrorists and covert agents aren't using ACME Co. gag bombs anymore, the IEDs and methods used to conceal them and their components are more sophisticated than ever. In response, so must be our screening techniques which must correlate with the latest threats. You all can't have it both ways; you want effective security screening procedures but you don't want to endure the process that comes along with it. If any of you all can think of ways to screen for IEDs and their components which cover all the threat areas (liquids, shoes, electronics, etc.) without inconveniencing you the passenger I'd love to hear it and pass it on.

E-T-P. Learn it. Know it. Live it.

The IonScan Sentinel II makes most of your agency's harassment completely unnecessary.

...If any of you all can think of ways to screen for IEDs and their components which cover all the threat areas (liquids, shoes, electronics, etc.) without inconveniencing you the passenger I'd love to hear it and pass it on.

Do a search...you'll find some concrete examples. I've posted often about real technology available today which can do the job, even linking to a specific vendor, and in one post, outlining the design for a complete holistic scanning system for passengers and bags based on ultra-sound, chemical scan, air filtering and CT/MRI.

By the way - why should we be inconvenienced by your agency's incompetence? You write as if IEDs and such just became a threat this week, like liquids just became a threat when the so-called UK plot was manufactured, I mean uncovered. The bottom line is passengers will be punished for your agency's incompetence - these threats existed all this time, yet you people failed to detect the tests unless you were tipped off in advance. I doubt the test scores are going to change even with additional vigilance. No one has found the bag full of bottles and tubes hidden inside my rolling duffel since I discovered how to pack for density.

A policy to inspect all electronic components is not "to protect the public", it's nothing more than a bunch of a$$ covering.

It boggles my mind how Congress continues to give your agency a free pass time after time instead of ending your reign of horror and implementing real security, with real fiscal responsibility and accountable management.

Yes, yes, please do that Spiff. As TSOs are paid hourly you'd only be inconveniencing yourself and fellow passengers. Way to make a potentially long and contentious process that much more long and contentious! Now, tell me exactly how that makes the TSA look stupid?

When others are as angry as I am and also calling for your agency's destruction, we will all be better off.

There are 43,000 TSOs employed by TSA; you're telling me that hatred is warranted for all 43,000 of us because of bad experiences with most likely less than 2% of them? Yes, that makes perfect sense. My ex girlfriend really did a number on me, perhaps I should hate all women too. :rolleyes:

People hate your agency with good reason - your "leaders" are jackasses who make stupid policies.

When your agency is destroyed and replaced with private security (something people don't hate, just stupid implementations of it), perhaps you'll be competent enough to be re-hired.

It is unwarranted hate if it's directed at an entire screening force. I think that's silly and some people are so caught up in their anti-TSA agenda they are willing to act in a way that is counterproductive not only to TSA but to themselves and other airline passengers.

You and your fellow employees should consider themselves fortunate if such actions are the extent of the anger of the traveling public. @:-)

It is unwarranted hate if it's directed at an entire screening force. I think that's silly and some people are so caught up in their anti-TSA agenda they are willing to act in a way that is counterproductive not only to TSA but to themselves and other airline passengers.

I just don't have respect for people who can do that for a living. And, I feel that they should have enough self respect to find another job.

Reports have said the images generated (not the example on tsahouseoflies.gov) leave little to the imagination.

"You've been chosen for millimeter wave screening."

"And you've been chosen to go pound sand."

I'm not subjecting myself to this device.

Agreed.

Sorry, no backscatter. No millimeter wave. My doctor gets to give the x-rays and see me naked.

I get enough x-rays per year because of my condition. I am not adding to the pile.

As far as the naked part...I am a very old-fashioned kinda girl. Better be a wedding ring on my finger from you (the TSA agent) before that kind of naked is going to happen. None of this "It's blurred!" nonsense. It leaves little to the imagination.

In other news, I am moving out of America. Have been planning it since 2004. Leaving in the spring. If they make this nationwide, I really doubt I will be coming back for visits much. "Go to America, get felt up, radiated and seen naked! Bring back a t-shirt."

As of today, 11/15/07, we have not begun this procedure at Houston Hobby. Whether or not that shall change is up in the air as policy can change overnight. However, if this is a new system wide process, it makes sense given the recent bad press and fumbles. I'd wager that some of the agents who breached the airport CPs had IED components concealed in electronics that are/were not currently being screened. As a result, we now have to be more thorough and screen these items at the inconvenience of the public. Terrorists and covert agents aren't using ACME Co. gag bombs anymore, the IEDs and methods used to conceal them and their components are more sophisticated than ever. In response, so must be our screening techniques which must correlate with the latest threats. You all can't have it both ways; you want effective security screening procedures but you don't want to endure the process that comes along with it. If any of you all can think of ways to screen for IEDs and their components which cover all the threat areas (liquids, shoes, electronics, etc.) without inconveniencing you the passenger I'd love to hear it and pass it on.

Here's the truth. A determined terrorist would be able to bypass any security that the TSA can dream up. That's just the way it is. It's an unsafe world, and no amount of theater at the checkpoint is going to make it safer.

It's sad fact, but it would be better for all of us to be adults and face up.

This is just absolutely ....ing pathetic.

Spiff, you want civil disobedience... we'll give it to them. One electronic item per bin. What are they gonna do? Send us to secondary? Even better! Choke the .... outta that too!

When I travel tomorrow... cell phone, bluetooth headset, laptop, ipod, camera, headphones, one power adaptor for each. Jacket, shoes, & wallet. That's 15 bins.

You ....ers at the TSA want to play assinine games, you got it. And just so you ....ers think you can delay things so I miss my flight, I'm showing up 4 ....ing hours before my flight just to piss you mother....ers off.

This is just absolutely ....ing pathetic.

Spiff, you want civil disobedience... we'll give it to them. One electronic item per bin. What are they gonna do? Send you to secondary? Even better! Choke the .... outta that too!

When I travel tomorrow... cell phone, bluetooth headset, laptop, ipod, camera, headphones, one power adaptor for each. Jacket, shoes, & wallet. That's 15 bins.

You ....ers at the TSA want to play assinine games, you got it. And just so you ....ers think you can delay me to miss my flight, I'm showing up 4 ....ing hours before my flight just to piss you mother....ers off.

^ ^

Let's take the fight to them!

UP YOURS, Kip! Your HIDE is the only thing that is acceptable from the TSA in terms of an apology.

^ ^

Let's take the fight to them!

UP YOURS, Kip! Your HIDE is the only thing that is acceptable from the TSA in terms of an apology.


Why do I get the feeling I am about to see a report about some guy whose internet handle is "Spiff" on the 6 o'clock news? :)

God, I hope so! Fight the good fight!

Why do I get the feeling I am about to see a report about some guy whose internet handle is "Spiff" on the 6 o'clock news? :)

God, I hope so! Fight the good fight!

Join me and every other like-minded traveler who is sick of this BS and can't wait to see the TSA destroyed and Kip Hawley punted into prison.

Electronic devices stay IN bags. UP YOURS, Kip.

I'm buying a bigger boat... this is ridiculous.

I've already started flying Seabourne Airlines to the USVI/BVI since there's no TSA checkpoints on seaplanes.

You fly seaplanes from the US Virgin Islands to Australia? Wow! That is a long flight for a piston airplane. :)

Join me and every other like-minded traveler who is sick of this BS and can't wait to see the TSA destroyed and Kip Hawley punted into prison.

Electronic devices stay IN bags. UP YOURS, Kip.

Oh heavens yes. I am not letting a single lens roll around in a plastic tub.

Nor are my prescriptions leaving my sight.

Is it really horrible of me that I wanted to yell "THAT EQUIPMENT COSTS MORE THAN YOU MAKE IN A MONTH!" last time they were pawing through my camera equipment?

Is it really horrible of me that I wanted to yell "THAT EQUIPMENT COSTS MORE THAN YOU MAKE IN A MONTH!" last time they were pawing through my camera equipment?

Not at all.

Kip Hawley is a lying little piece of trash.

If people choose to work for lying little pieces of trash, they should consider themselves fortunate if passengers only yell at them when they paw through passengers' belongings unnecessarily.

Not at all.

Kip Hawley is a lying little piece of trash.

If people choose to work for lying little pieces of trash, they should consider themselves fortunate if passengers only yell at them when they paw through passengers' belongings unnecessarily.

That one made me mad, too. She grabbed it and went about her pawing before I could even get there to ask her to put on new gloves.

That one made me mad, too. She grabbed it and went about her pawing before I could even get there to ask her to put on new gloves.

The last time a TSA employee started to dig through my bag before I was in front of my bag had the employee put on new gloves, I said:

STOP! I will be right with you. DO NOT open that until I am there.

E-T-P. Learn it. Know it. Live it.

The IonScan Sentinel II makes most of your agency's harassment completely unnecessary.

::sigh:: C'mon Spiff! You know the IonScan won't work! Not one bit...it wasn't invented here (USA) and Smiths Detection isn't even a US company! How can you trust them to protect the fath..homeland? :D

The last time a TSA employee started to dig through my bag before I was in front of my bag had the employee put on new gloves, I said:

STOP! I will be right with you. DO NOT open that until I am there.

wow! And you didn't get a retalitory secondary or at least a tongue thrashing for "meanacing" a "federal officer"? :rolleyes:

The last time a TSA employee started to dig through my bag before I was in front of my bag had the employee put on new gloves, I said:

STOP! I will be right with you. DO NOT open that until I am there.

Trust me. Had I been in a position to do so, I would have.

protect the fath..homeland? :D

*snicker*

Why do I get the feeling I am about to see a report about some guy whose internet handle is "Spiff" on the 6 o'clock news? :)

God, I hope so! Fight the good fight!

If anything, you'll see me on the 6pm news. :o

"Traveler holds up line at airport to protest TSA's new rules regarding electronics. Other passengers follow suit!"

If anything, you'll see me on the 6pm news. :o

"Traveler holds up line at airport to protest TSA's new rules regarding electronics. Other passengers follow suit!"

I would love to see a massive protest wherein everyone buys a ticket for a particular day. No one produces ID for the TSA. No one separates all electronics. Everyone refuses to take off shoes (you can do so, just have to get a secondary).

All participants plan a vacation with flights on the same exact day to pull it off. Buy the extra $15 insurance in case you miss your flight.

Would cost money to protest, but would be well worth it.

The only way this insanity would stop: FINE TSA. Heavily.

False alarm terminal dump? slap them with a $500 billion judgement, to be distributed among everyone inconvenienced.
Fail a test? slap them with a $50 million fine, every time.
Theft? slap them with a $50 million fine plus restitution for the stolen articles.
Broken articles? $50 million plus restitution for all broken articles.
False arrest? Fire the person that made the arrest, have them prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and $50 million fine for TSA. TSA, in addition, is subject to civil action.

Okay, so I'm back home now. I think I'm an average business traveler. Since the whole of Terminal 2 Security checkpoint got to see, I will let you know what I had in my bag also:

"Electronics"
1 laptop
2 cellphones
3 cellphone power adapters
2 computer power adapters
4 usb cables
1 bluetooth earpiece
3 jump drives
1 S Video cable
1 electric shaver
1 electric shaver power adapter
2 laptop batteries
1 cd drive
1 3 way plug (always bring one for the limited outlets some hotels have)
1 digital camera
1 iPod
3 miscellaneous cables

That's 28 pieces, plus:

"non-electronic"
Sensitive Documents, personal documents, private pictures, and private correspondences.

I forgot I had 1 cellphone in a pouch and the bluetooth and one errant cable.

I initially pull all the crap out when directed... I got pissed when the TSO start berating me about not taking it all out.

I said I thought I did and I got most of it. He says most is not all.

So that caused a hand search and rescan which is an invasion of privacy regardless what anyone says. What happened to the fourth amendment?

Let me quote it for all those who don't know, much like the bible thumpers who don't know their own contradicting scriptures:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The TSA is not protecting us and our constitution; it is violating it.

It is a mockery and does nothing to protect us from harms perceived and real.

Get rid of it and the Department of Fatherland Security.

Is it really horrible of me that I wanted to yell "THAT EQUIPMENT COSTS MORE THAN YOU MAKE IN A MONTH!" last time they were pawing through my camera equipment?

That's not horrible, that's telling them the truth!

Like you, on those rare occassions I travel for leisure, my camera equipment is worth more than what those idiots make in a month. The last thing I need is some amateur POS college flunky rent-a-cop on a government salary screwing up a couple of 100 year old cameras or that nice little Hasselblad that I just picked up. :mad:

The only way this insanity would stop: FINE TSA. Heavily.

False alarm terminal dump? slap them with a $500 billion judgement, to be distributed among everyone inconvenienced.
Fail a test? slap them with a $50 million fine, every time.
Theft? slap them with a $50 million fine plus restitution for the stolen articles.
Broken articles? $50 million plus restitution for all broken articles.
False arrest? Fire the person that made the arrest, have them prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and $50 million fine for TSA. TSA, in addition, is subject to civil action.

Fine? No... this needs to be handled the Chinese way... execution (which I'm heavily opposed to but in this case, I find myself in conflict) of the perps involved in said theft, or giving the government a bad name.

If you're going to isolate your electronics in baggies, I would suggest placing certain items (PCMCIA cards, memory sticks, anything with exposed connecting pins & circuitry inside) in anti-static envelopes & seal them with an appropriate label.

At least insist they not be standing on carpeting while they are inspecting electronics, and require that they touch a grounded surface first.

If you really want to be prepared, throw in a grounding wrist strap, since I doubt the burger flippers will be equipped with anti-static mats & wrist straps.

Fine? No... this needs to be handled the Chinese way... execution (which I'm heavily opposed to but in this case, I find myself in conflict) of the perps involved in said theft, or giving the government a bad name.
While I think this kind of stuff needs to be dealt with killing people is sorta of extremely so I'm hoping that you were only joking..

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/Palm-D052; Blazer/4.5) 16;320x320)

It's all coming together now. I watched a fair amount of Kippie's testimony today before Waxman's committee. The GAO guys testified also - including one of the guys who was a penetrator.

A lot of the discussion was about carry-on baggage. kippie's main concern was that a lot of carry-on bags were too heavy for his screeners to safely lift, so his main priority is to reduce the weight limit. It was clear to me that he was headed down the path of "If I ban all carry-on bags, I can't fail any more tests where stuff is hidden in bags." Since Kippie could realistically never get away with a complete ban on carry-ons, the next best thing he can do is to make things as miserable and as inconvenient for those who dare carry on.

FYI - The GAO normally sends a draft of a report to the audited agency about 30 days before the public release, so Kippie knew what was coming. It was very easy for the TSA to plan for and implement this new policy to coincide with the bad press they knew would happen.

I carry several electronic devices either because I need them in flight, or because I cannot check them (for fear of theft or damage, neither of which the airlines or TSA will accept any liability for):

Camera + lenses; depending on the purpose and length of my trip, can be one or 4-5 lenses. Each one has electronics inside them, and I am NOT taking those lenses out and am going to demand the TSA handle each with care if they try to hand-inspect. Camera cables, battery chargers, spare batteries, extra CF cards. Flash.

Laptop; I use it in-flight to get work done, and require it at my destination 99% of the time. Includes external hard drives (1-2) and power supplies, cables, etc. Spare battery. USB thumb drive(s).

iPod + noise-cancelling headset. Unpowered earbud headphones for takeoff and landing (guess those are "electronics" since they have a cable. :rolleyes:

Cell phone + charger.

My company badge contains two microchips. Is it "electronic?" My RSA token to access the corporate VPN definitely is. Neither of these are supposed to be where someone can get at them, but I often need to travel with them, too.

These items are spread over my rollaboard and my laptop bag, and occasionally a camera bag if I am traveling with a lot of camera gear. Unpacking and re-packing those 2-3 bags at the checkpoint is going to be a pain.

Misc: GPS (sometimes--it's tiny, anyway); minature flashlight. Second watch (even the analog one is quartz-driven; guess that's "electronic.")

You know what? The TSA can do it. I'm darn well not going to unpack and tapdance for them. :mad: :td: :mad:

It doesn't yet announce the new policy, but here is a new IED webpage that the TSA apparently created today (11/15/07):

http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/tsa_ied_mitigation.shtm

This is clearly CYA. Read the GAO report and read hearing transcripts. Most every member, Republican or Democrat, blasted Kippie for dragging his feet. This web page is a feeble attempt at another "Mythbuster" except that they didn't have the guts to poke Congress and the GAO in the eye by putting this on the Mythbuster page.

I would love to see a massive protest wherein everyone buys a ticket for a particular day. No one produces ID for the TSA. No one separates all electronics. Everyone refuses to take off shoes (you can do so, just have to get a secondary).

All participants plan a vacation with flights on the same exact day to pull it off. Buy the extra $15 insurance in case you miss your flight.

Would cost money to protest, but would be well worth it.That would be great! Sign me up!

It's because many of your comrades are unprofessional bullying @$$holes. Some are fine - even exceptional folks (the ones at TUS are great).... but there are others who absolutely warrant disgust.

Wouldn't this statement be equally true of a police force in X city as well? I don't think it's just limited to the TSA.

It just that most of us have more contact with the TSA on a weekly basis that we do with the police.

You put 40K people in some position of authority and you're going to get the good, the bad and the ugly.

You fly seaplanes from the US Virgin Islands to Australia? Wow! That is a long flight for a piston airplane. :)
British Virgin Islands ;) mea culpa :)

I could theoretically say SIG-VIJ, SIG-STT, SIG-STX but that would be lying since I don't actually go to an airport for those flights, I go to the port of San Juan.

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/Palm-D052; Blazer/4.5) 16;320x320)

It's all coming together now. I watched a fair amount of Kippie's testimony today before Waxman's committee. The GAO guys testified also - including one of the guys who was a penetrator.

A lot of the discussion was about carry-on baggage. kippie's main concern was that a lot of carry-on bags were too heavy for his screeners to safely lift, so his main priority is to reduce the weight limit. It was clear to me that he was headed down the path of "If I ban all carry-on bags, I can't fail any more tests where stuff is hidden in bags." Since Kippie could realistically never get away with a complete ban on carry-ons, the next best thing he can do is to make things as miserable and as inconvenient for those who dare carry on.

FYI - The GAO normally sends a draft of a report to the audited agency about 30 days before the public release, so Kippie knew what was coming. It was very easy for the TSA to plan for and implement this new policy to coincide with the bad press they knew would happen.

Ah, yes, the political way to get what you want, regardless of how stupid it is. Make it inconvenient for the public, when they complain tell everyone the way to fix the problem is to ban heavy bags or move to a one-bag limit. Make sure you implement the inconvenient policy at the worst travel time of the year.

It's about administrative convenience, NOT public service.

LAX Terminal 4 was not on the new policy yesterday.

As for Cincinnati, here's something that shows the attitude: Editorial Link (http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071116/EDIT01/711160346/1090)

It doesn't yet announce the new policy, but here is a new IED webpage that the TSA apparently created today (11/15/07):
http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/tsa_ied_mitigation.shtm

Read it and get more confused. They are bragging how they stop IEDs. Then "July 2007 Lighter Ban ends". Call me slow but I still do not understand how allowing lighters stops tewwowists from lighting their IEDs. :confused:

"August 2006 UK Liquid Explosive plot foiled" It bothers me when a government agency goes around "foiling things". Sounds too much like TPing a rival frat house. Or preparing the Thanksgiving main course. Besides, governments don't foil things,they FUBAR things.

OTOH, to wire from a battery to a detonator takes two three inch pieces of conductors. The gold plated temple pieces from some eyeglasses are all you need. Time for a Ray Ban :cool: Ban. Are you paying attention, Kip?

Then a major misspelling. "November 2006 EU adoption of 3-1-1 Protocols". It's not "Protocols" Kip, it's "Proctologicols." ^ (appropriate smilie, if gloved)

@:-) OTOH, they have now given us the perfect excuse to slow the line down with more secondaries than they ever dreamed of. I always carry my ID and BP thru the WTMD. Soon when the second checker asks for ID, it's time for "I was only following TSA orders. The moat dragon Ordered me to place ALL electronics in the bin, and my new passport has an RF chip, so it's over there in the xray with the rest of my electronics." @:-)

As for Cincinnati, here's something that shows the attitude: Editorial Link (http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071116/EDIT01/711160346/1090)From that link - for those who have had difficulty there is someone who is interested in hearing about it...."Have you had a problem at an airport checkpoint? Send you experience to letters@enquirer.com. Include your name, neighborhood and day phone."

Don't know if they just want to talk about Cincinnati or not.

@:-) OTOH, they have now given us the perfect excuse to slow the line down with more secondaries than they ever dreamed of. I always carry my ID and BP thru the WTMD. Soon when the second checker asks for ID, it's time for "I was only following TSA orders. The moat dragon Ordered me to place ALL electronics in the bin, and my new passport has an RF chip, so it's over there in the xray with the rest of my electronics." @:-)

If they're like the screeners at BWI, they will use "you'll miss your flight" as a retaliatory cry, and assign only a single screener to do secondaries. As a way to "learn" us.

Then "July 2007 Lighter Ban ends". Call me slow but I still do not understand how allowing lighters stops tewwowists from lighting their IEDs.
Despite more than 5 years of this nonsensical agency, the ONE thing I am willing to give them complete and total CREDIT for is the elimination of the lighter ban.
The ban was not their idea, it was that of 2 Congressional dimwits who decided it would help with security and didn't mind the fact that the ban was consistent with their personal feelings against smoking.

The ban took time, effort and attention from TSO's which was unneccesary and repealing it was a GOOD move.
Since they no longer have to concentrate on BicLighters, they are "presumably' more able to do other things. I suspect those "other things" aren't very popular here either. ;)

Best, Dave

"August 2006 UK Liquid Explosive plot foiled" It bothers me when a government agency goes around "foiling things". Sounds too much like TPing a rival frat house. Or preparing the Thanksgiving main course. Besides, governments don't foil things,they FUBAR things.


That made me think of ole Scooby Doo..."...and I'da gotten away with it if those meddling kids hadn't foiled me..."

wow! And you didn't get a retalitory secondary or at least a tongue thrashing for "meanacing" a "federal officer"? :rolleyes:

Nope, you just have to take a firm hand with them and let them know that their little tin star and their powers of harassment do not impress or intimidate you. I memorize the badge number as soon as I have to have contact with such an individual, in case further blasting is necessary.

While I think this kind of stuff needs to be dealt with killing people is sorta of extremely so I'm hoping that you were only joking..

You didn't catch the Senator John Edwards reference? :P

Execution would be a little too extreme. Hard labour while building roads under the Texas or New Mexico summer sun should be more than sufficient punishment for those idiots.

Wasn't my experience yesterday at MIA, nor the day before that at LIT. So it seems that consistent inconsistency is still the rule of the day.

Take a look at how the "test" was structured.
Shampoo in unmarked container, "unsafe" chemical in another container (container not described, perhals labelled?), coins left in a pocket as a distraction, "bad" stuff in pockets (not described - was it metal?).
This seems to be a test designed for TSA to fail yet demonstrate that TSA followed procedures.
So, what will be the result - we're seeing it with "all electronics out" - not that TSA seems to know the difference between electronic and electrical. But next, no unlabelled containers of liquid . . . perhaps even back to no liquid. Empty pockets, doesn't matter whether metallic or not, everything must go. Massage to ensure pockets empty.
Sure hope I'm wrong!

The ban was not their idea, it was that of 2 Congressional dimwits who decided it would help with security and didn't mind the fact that the ban was consistent with their personal feelings against smoking.


Just goes to show how the use of the word "security" gets political attention.

I carry several electronic devices either because I need them in flight, or because I cannot check them (for fear of theft or damage, neither of which the airlines or TSA will accept any liability for):

My company badge contains two microchips. Is it "electronic?" My RSA token to access the corporate VPN definitely is. Neither of these are supposed to be where someone can get at them, but I often need to travel with them, too.

You know what? The TSA can do it. I'm darn well not going to unpack and tapdance for them. :mad: :td: :mad:

You know what, we are still in America, I think; ergo you shouldn't have to explain what your bringing and why.

Also, TSA did miss my RSA token which would have brought my total "electronics" count to 29.

You know what, we are still in America, I think; ergo you shouldn't have to explain what your bringing and why.

Also, TSA did miss my RSA token which would have brought my total "electronics" count to 29.


"If I'm not doing anything illegal, why is it any of their business?"


Original article link here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/15/AR2007111502482.html?hpid=artslot)

Perhaps the best part(s)

How far can it go? We have only to recall the 2006 film "The Lives of Others," which portrays how the Stasi of Communist East Germany deployed hundreds of thousands of ordinary people to spy on their fellow citizens and turn them in.

...........
In training the BDOs, "we teach that everybody's been in an airport long enough to know what the norm is," says Carl Maccario, a program analyst for what the TSA calls SPOT, or Screening Passengers by Observation Techniques. "There's an expected norm or an expected baseline environment. . . . We teach the BDOs, in a simplified form, to look for anomalous behavior in that environment."

Being different? A big problem.

........

"The next thing is they'll just have cameras everywhere," Zuboff says. "They'll have software programmed with algorithms, and the algorithms will be able to detect these so-called anomalies. And so you may be distraught because you're flying home to your grandmother's funeral, but the algorithm has detected an anomalous behavior, and the next thing you're being strip-searched by a couple of FBI agents."

That would be great! Sign me up!

Everyone exercises their right to do these things. Everyone gets a vacation.

Best. Protest. Ever.

If every single person in line exercised their rights (which we still have), it will be great.

What are they going to do? Say "all of you wanting to exercise your rights should just not do that!"?

They are "electronics" because, what they really mean is "anything that could be used as a component in an IED."

Plastic? Backpacks? "SIR! Take the backpack out of the backpack. NOW"

Not at all.

Kip Hawley is a lying little piece of trash.

If people choose to work for lying little pieces of trash, they should consider themselves fortunate if passengers only yell at them when they paw through passengers' belongings unnecessarily.

I love this forum. It's a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stagnant world:rolleyes:

The TSA is not protecting us and our constitution; it is violating it.

Small point of clarification: It is not the TSA's mandate to "protect ... our constitution," but rather to abide it. (And not violating it isn't the same thing is actively abiding it.) Constitution decisions are the purview of the Judicial Branch, which is as it should be.

C'mon, do you really mean you want the TSA to have discretion over Constitutional matters? (I thought not. ;))

The IonScan Sentinel II makes most of your agency's harassment completely unnecessary.

http://www.global-security-solutions.com/IonScanSentinel.htm:

SPECIFICATIONS

Technology................Ion Mobility Spectrometry (IMS)

Sample Collection........Trace Particle & Vapor

Drug Detection...........Cocaine, Heroin, PCP, THC, Methamphetamine, Marijuana, Ecstasy and others

Explosive Detection.....RDX, PETN, TNT, Semtex, NG, and others

Analysis Time.............7 people per minute

No shoe carnival, no liquids nonsense, no modesty issues ... no kidding! Why the hell can't *we* have this?

http://www.global-security-solutions.com/IonScanSentinel.htm:



No shoe carnival, no liquids nonsense, no modesty issues ... no kidding! Why the hell can't *we* have this?
Because *they* didn't think of it first... and it most importantly it would end the Thousands Standing Around silly!! :rolleyes:

Because *they* didn't think of it first... and it most importantly it would end the Thousands Standing Around silly!! :rolleyes:

Won't do squat for the Trillions Squandered Already.

So TSA takes us to "Ludicrous Policy," much like Dark Helmet went to "Ludicrous Speed" in "Spaceballs." Seems rather similar. :D

Kip, your work isn't good enough. You've done a terrible job, security's a disaster, and people are pissed at you. You're fired.

Oh wait, this isn't the private sector.....

For the record, there was no such nonsense at ORD yesterday at Termainal 3 (AA). Just the same ole Dog Chow... :(

How about DCA? Any of that nonense there?

In response, so must be our screening techniques which must correlate with the latest threats. You all can't have it both ways; you want effective security screening procedures but you don't want to endure the process that comes along with it.

It's astounding that they can still find people who can believe this! What the US needs more than anything else is a better education system and more people capable of even the vaguest level of comprehension of statistics and risk management.

I can think of a number of ways to blow up a plane, the easiest of which is to sit outside the airport with a surface-to-air missile. Others would require complete disassembly of every laptop to discover. To provide total security against bomb components is impossible. To provide 99% effective security would still make air travel a totally non-viable enterprise.

Air travel is 1000 times safer than car travel. Trying to make it 1001 times safer at enormous expense and inconvenience is just plain stupid.

Small point of clarification: It is not the TSA's mandate to "protect ... our constitution," but rather to abide it. (And not violating it isn't the same thing is actively abiding it.) Constitution decisions are the purview of the Judicial Branch, which is as it should be. C'mon, do you really mean you want the TSA to have discretion over Constitutional matters? (I thought not. ;))Every person hired as a Federal employee (as I was) must "...solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God." 5 U.S.C. §3331

It is totally beyond my comprehension how any employee of the TSA can take this oath and then go do his or her job as instructed. Maybe they have to drink the Kool-Aid first. :rolleyes:

Bruce

Okay, it's been a couple of days now... has anyone else experienced this new policy? Anyone at CVG or elsewhere? Or was it just an anomaly or a test case at CVG on 11/15?

I've been through LGA, EWR, ORD and DSM without seeing any new policy. Looks like an anomaly to me.

Bruce

Nothing at SDF this morning other than the usual bs from the Totally Stupid Agency.

This is just absolutely ....ing pathetic.

Spiff, you want civil disobedience... we'll give it to them. One electronic item per bin. What are they gonna do? Send us to secondary? Even better! Choke the .... outta that too! when I travel tomorrow... That's 15 bins . . . And just so you ....ers think you can delay things so I miss my flight, I'm showing up 4 ....ing hours before my flight just to piss you mother....ers off.

wow . . lemme see if I got this right . . . you're going to be an angry jerk tomorrow because you don't like the new policies that the low level staff are paid to enforce?:confused:

here's a suggestion: get your anger out some other way that mistreating a worker

do the whole bin thing with a BIG SMILE ON YOUR FACE :cool:

I find it best to treat TSOs like snakes. I consider them a threat until proven otherwise. As for counterproductive........ Ahhh... yeah. Like I said - read a little more.

Ah, I see. That train of thought is no better than that of lower income minorities who hate whites and their local police force because of the mistreatment or allegations of such of a few out of thousands. You know, I suppose after the random corruption of the LAPD in the 90s we should have just abolished their whole police force. Might as well do that with NYPD too, they can't seem to stop shooting at those young black kids. Let's get rid of the whole force since a few people are screwing up. And dag nabbit, if we can't get rid of them, might as well hate them and cause "civil disobedience" to make their jobs that much harder.

And comparing human beings to a sinister form of animal, cute. I bet you felt really good typing that, thinking it was all clever and such. Well, if you feel you're able to compare a hard working person with an animal just because you don't like their agencies policies which they have no hand in creating, you deserve whatever supposed injustice you encounter. I mean, we are snakes after all, why be upset if we bite?

E-T-P. Learn it. Know it. Live it.

The IonScan Sentinel II makes most of your agency's harassment completely unnecessary.

Well, instead of hassling TSOs and slapping fives with your anti-TSA bros on this site, perhaps you should write your favorite local congressman and push for this agency to receive the new technology that we need to do our jobs. I'd sure love a replacement for my Smith-Heimann as it doesn't provide the clarity I need to effectively do my job.

As an aside, supposedly there will be a massive rollout of various new technologies to replace existing hardware at the largest airports (cats X and I). If your face won't melt at the very sight of it, you can go to tsa.gov and read up on it.

Well, instead of hassling TSOs and slapping fives with your anti-TSA bros on this site, perhaps you should write your favorite local congressman and push for this agency to receive the new technology that we need to do our jobs. I'd sure love a replacement for my Smith-Heimann as it doesn't provide the clarity I need to effectively do my job.

As an aside, supposedly there will be a massive rollout of various new technologies to replace existing hardware at the largest airports (cats X and I). If your face won't melt at the very sight of it, you can go to tsa.gov and read up on it.

Done and done. No changes in stupid policies mean that you get to enjoy the brunt of customer dissatisfaction.

You agency HAS the money. It squanders it on stupidity like the Shoe Carnival, Liquids Idiocy, and BP/ID checking (yes, all those things cost money that could be spent on technology). Tell YOUR boss to stop deploying your agency's limited resources in an extremely stupid and un-American manner.

Don't like it? No one is forcing you to be a TSA employee.

Well, instead of hassling TSOs and slapping fives with your anti-TSA bros on this site, perhaps you should write your favorite local congressman and push for this agency to receive the new technology that we need to do our jobs. I'd sure love a replacement for my Smith-Heimann as it doesn't provide the clarity I need to effectively do my job.

Congress does not buy equipment; Congress appropriates funding which agencies use to purchase equipment. What is TSA spending their capital budget on?

Do a search...you'll find some concrete examples. I've posted often about real technology available today which can do the job, even linking to a specific vendor, and in one post, outlining the design for a complete holistic scanning system for passengers and bags based on ultra-sound, chemical scan, air filtering and CT/MRI.

Why tell this frontline snake? You should forward such information to the pertinent government official. I doubt you all shall ever have the joy of seeing us TSOs slither away from your airports, but getting us some new equipment would work wonders as far as screening, detection of your ever so cute "goodie" bags and just making the process that much more expedient. Believe me, we do not enjoy your presence just as much as you do not enjoy ours. I'd gladly welcome any proposal to give us the tools to make the process faster and more pleasant for us all.

By the way - why should we be inconvenienced by your agency's incompetence? You write as if IEDs and such just became a threat this week, like liquids just became a threat when the so-called UK plot was manufactured, I mean uncovered. The bottom line is passengers will be punished for your agency's incompetence - these threats existed all this time, yet you people failed to detect the tests unless you were tipped off in advance. I doubt the test scores are going to change even with additional vigilance. No one has found the bag full of bottles and tubes hidden inside my rolling duffel since I discovered how to pack for density.

Hold on there buddy, I'm not Kip and you're not a powerful congressman so save the C-Span theatrics for someone else. And as I have stated before, we need better equipment. I know it's easier to yell and vent at a live TSO than an outmoded machine, but those are the facts. I'm not going to fault you for not understanding what goes on outside of your "passenger inconvenienced by TSA" bubble.

A policy to inspect all electronic components is not "to protect the public", it's nothing more than a bunch of a$$ covering.

Perhaps you shouldn't take what people say on FlyerTalk as gospel. It's not an official TSA policy, probably the work of an FSD who wanted swing his balls around while having the security of knowing the frontline TSOs would bear the brunt of backlash. However, if it were to become an official policy, I can see how it would be viable to our mission.

It boggles my mind how Congress continues to give your agency a free pass time after time instead of ending your reign of horror and implementing real security, with real fiscal responsibility and accountable management.

It boggles my mind that instead of making sure we get the proper equipment to do our jobs, Congress hangs us out to dry while uninformed passengers take out their anger on those of us who can only follow orders.

When others are as angry as I am and also calling for your agency's destruction, we will all be better off.

LOL, did someone's pet rock tell you that? You know, working at the frontlines, I see most of the anger comes from the internet. The average passenger is friendly and at the very least cooperative. So my friend, I think you'll be waiting for many a decade before you can have you million man march on Washington calling for the destruction of the TSA.

LOL, did someone's pet rock tell you that? You know, working at the frontlines, I see most of the anger comes from the internet. The average passenger is friendly and at the very least cooperative. So my friend, I think you'll be waiting for many a decade before you can have you million man march on Washington calling for the destruction of the TSA.

It's attitude like this that makes the destruction of your agency almost assured.

I know that when I look at resumes, if I see TSA in employment history for any length of time and the applicant isn't someone like Bart, that resume is going right into the trash.

People hate your agency with good reason - your "leaders" are jackasses who make stupid policies.

When your agency is destroyed and replaced with private security (something people don't hate, just stupid implementations of it), perhaps you'll be competent enough to be re-hired.

The same "private" security that failed to thwart the 9/11 attacks right? If anything, private security shall be worse than anything TSA can conjure up from the depths of hell. I hope you don't think you'd be getting a Blackwater level operation as a TSA replacement. Oh yes, the airlines would definitely pay for that. Gosh, I love this forum! So many interesting viewpoints. I think I'm just going to settle in and stay for awhile.

You and your fellow employees should consider themselves fortunate if such actions are the extent of the anger of the traveling public. @:-)

My goodness man! Are you actually advocating or at the very least agreeing with further display of passenger aggression up to or including violence. Spiff, my man, [/Frank Lucas] you shall definitely provide me with hour upon hour of interesting reading.

The same "private" security that failed to thwart the 9/11 attacks right? If anything, private security shall be worse than anything TSA can conjure up from the depths of hell. I hope you don't think you'd be getting a Blackwater level operation as a TSA replacement. Oh yes, the airlines would definitely pay for that. Gosh, I love this forum! So many interesting viewpoints. I think I'm just going to settle in and stay for awhile.

How exactly did private security fail that day? Please, go into detail. Use big words.

Private security did nothing wrong that day. 9/11 was caused by cooperation with terrorists and pilots opening cockpit doors. To say that 9/11 was caused by legally permitted boxcutters is the height of abject stupidity.

Private security is often unfairly blamed for 9/11 as an excuse to start the disgusting Workfare program known as TSA. It was a cowardly and Communistic mistake that should be corrected and those responsible for it severely punished.

I just don't have respect for people who can do that for a living. And, I feel that they should have enough self respect to find another job.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Well, I'll let that speak for itself. I've been to some whacked out forums before, but only on FlyerTalk would no one challenge this. Good show, good show.

My goodness man! Are you actually advocating or at the very least agreeing with further display of passenger aggression up to or including violence. Spiff, my man, [/Frank Lucas] you shall definitely provide me with hour upon hour of interesting reading.

Advocating? Hardly.

Nevertheless, you and your fellow employees should indeed consider yourselves fortunate if angry complaints and refusal to jump to follow your agency's mindless idiocy are all you experience from disgusted passengers. @:-)

Done and done. No changes in stupid policies mean that you get to enjoy the brunt of customer dissatisfaction.

Your agency HAS the money. It squanders it on stupidity like the Shoe Carnival, Liquids Idiocy, and BP/ID checking (yes, all those things cost money that could be spent on technology). Tell YOUR boss to stop deploying your agency's limited resources in an extremely stupid and un-American manner.

Don't like it? No one is forcing you to be a TSA employee.

I was nice and edited your post to add an "r" to make the word complete and sentence correct.

Anyway, if you want to delve the most base of logic, no one is forcing you to fly and endure the TSA "totalitarian" policies and let's take your logic even further shall we; no one is forcing you to live in this country who allows us Nazi reincarnate to exist and withhold the common man's last gasp of air under or jackboot.

Congress does not buy equipment; Congress appropriates funding which agencies use to purchase equipment. What is TSA spending their capital budget on?

So, if I'm a government agency and I decide to go and order say, I don't know, 1,000,000 of those pet rocks that seem so popular around here, Congress should have no say or influence on such a ludicrous purchase? Look, what I'm saying is to encourage your local congressman to influence the TSA to buy new technologies for their checkpoints. There's only so much I can do without the concurrence of the general public.

It's attitude like this that makes the destruction of your agency almost assured.

I know that when I look at resumes, if I see TSA in employment history for any length of time and the applicant isn't someone like Bart, that resume is going right into the trash.

Attitude? Excuse me good sir, but I've responded to every post with a dignity and respect that I have yet to be shown in return. I think I've conducted myself in a manner that others on this forum should definitely emulate.

And discrimination based on personal bias eh? Might as well not hire them because they are black, mexican, or a woman while you're at it.

How exactly did private security fail that day? Please, go into detail. Use big words.

Private security did nothing wrong that day. 9/11 was caused by cooperation with terrorists and pilots opening cockpit doors. To say that 9/11 was caused by legally permitted boxcutters is the height of abject stupidity.

Private security is often unfairly blamed for 9/11 as an excuse to start the disgusting Workfare program known as TSA. It was a cowardly and Communistic mistake that should be corrected and those responsible for it severely punished.

Oh wait wait wait, I get it now. So, if a 9/11 were to happen on our watch, your assertions we're a disgusting Nazi/Communist (who ever thought the two could be combined) agency would be validated. But, since 9/11 DID actually happen on the watch of the poor wittle private security agencies of which you advocate, it was cooperation with terrorists? Riiiiiiiight. No bias there.

Oh wait wait wait, I get it now. So, if a 9/11 were to happen on our watch, your assertions we're a disgusting Nazi/Communist (who ever thought the two could be combined) agency would be validated. But, since 9/11 DID actually happen on the watch of the poor wittle private security agencies of which you advocate, it was cooperation with terrorists? Riiiiiiiight. No bias there.

Still waiting. How exactly was 9/11 the fault of private security?

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Well, I'll let that speak for itself. I've been to some whacked out forums before, but only on FlyerTalk would no one challenge this. Good show, good show.

That was a interesting way of bowing out of an argument. ;)

Seriously, you feel that checking IDs does makes us safer somehow? Would you care to explain how an ID check keeps someone from committing terror on an airplane? Do they just sit on the airplane and go "Wow, they checked my id.. maybe I shouldn't do something terrible!!"

Like I said, it's not a respectable job. Anyone with self-respect would quit due to the utter senselessness of it.

Go ahead and defend it. We're all ears.

Still waiting. How exactly was 9/11 the fault of private security?

Well, I'm just going to use the logic prevalent on this forum. It was their fault because they didn't stop it. Going any further into it would be useless. Besides, why hold me to standards you yourself don't adhere to?

Great, my snakelike appearance scared everyone away. :(

Well, I'm just going to use the logic prevalent on this forum. It was their fault because they didn't stop it. Going any further into it would be useless. Besides, why hold me to standards you yourself don't adhere to?

You have no answer and you're off on some standards tangent?

I take it you decline to answer? :)

Great, my snakelike appearance scared everyone away. :(

Your unwillingness to directly answer Spiff's question demonstrates you're not here for a discussion. People answered you on-point, you have failed to do so.

If you're proud of that, then so be it. But don't wonder why people don't engage in conversation with you.

You have no answer and you're off on some standards tangent?

I take it you decline to answer? :)

I did answer, and I answered using the prevalent logic of the forum, what more could you ask for.

Less02, give me a break, did you not see I made an attempt to respond to every single post directed at me? You guys don't even try to hide your biases.

What argument is there to bow out of? Your statement was the equivalent to an infant defecating upon my shoe; infantile and repugnant. How was I supposed to respond to that? Most people should be well aware that infants don't understand adult thought. I'd just be talking to myself.

And, as far as the second part of your argument is concerned, your silly little comments would only be of any significance if all we did was check for IDs. But, there's more to screening than that as you all so well know.

Uh huh. ;)

Should we talk about the effectiveness of screening now? :)

Self-respect, my friend..

So, if I'm a government agency and I decide to go and order say, I don't know, 1,000,000 of those pet rocks that seem so popular around here, Congress should have no say or influence on such a ludicrous purchase? Look, what I'm saying is to encourage your local congressman to influence the TSA to buy new technologies for their checkpoints. There's only so much I can do without the concurrence of the general public.

You can have the last word if you wish, but your agency is responsible for equipment procurement. The "general public" I am sure would concur with the acquisition of screening equipment that will allow them to forgo some of the screening practices currently in place.

FYI - I do not own a pet rock, but still have not experienced an incidence of terrorism aboard any of my flights. Coincidence, perhaps? Or the stellar job performed by 43,000 dedicated federal screeners who are the "last line of defense?"

You can have the last word if you wish, but your agency is responsible for equipment procurement. The "general public" I am sure would concur with the acquisition of screening equipment that will allow them to forgo some of the screening practices currently in place.

FYI - I do not own a pet rock, but still have not experienced an incidence of terrorism aboard any of my flights. Coincidence, perhaps? Or the stellar job performed by 43,000 dedicated federal screeners who are the "last line of defense?"

Yes, and I wish the agency would procure only the best technology available and it seems to be on the path of improvement as far as that is concerned. Some of the new technology you may like (X-rays that detect explosives and dedicated liquid screening is on the way so the LGA rule may be lifted eventually) and some you may not like (body imaging).

I did answer, and I answered using the prevalent logic of the forum, what more could you ask for.

I must have missed the answer.

"It happened on their watch?" Is that what you're claiming to be an answer?

Argenbright was in no way responsible for 9/11. Pilots who opened doors were. People who cooperated with terrorists were. Airport security was in no way responsible for the events that day.

Yes, and I wish the agency would procure only the best technology available and it seems to be on the path of improvement as far as that is concerned. Some of the new technology you may like (X-rays that detect explosives and dedicated liquid screening is on the way so the LGA rule may be lifted eventually) and some you may not like (body imaging).

Sorry, body imaging is hardly acceptable to all passengers and I doubt the TSA is willing to give any written assurances of its safety.

Whole body imaging, for safety and privacy reasons is DOA for me and for a lot of other people too. It is unnecessary when one uses the WTMD in conjunction with ETP.

Uh huh. ;)

Should we talk about the effectiveness of screening now? :)

Self-respect, my friend..

Screening is a deterrent for terrorism, just like the police force is a deterrent for crime. Will it happen anyways? Most likely. Can we lower the risk with better and more thorough procedures, definitely. I know you don't like ID checks, the electronics checks, shoe checks, LGA rule and so on, but they are necessary to lower the risk of an incident.

Some feel we don't need screening at all, and others feel it needs to be more thorough. All of them seem to hate the TSA. The job is finding a balance that shall never be because it will always be too much or never enough.

I must have missed the answer.

"It happened on their watch?" Is that what you're claiming to be an answer?

Argenbright was in no way responsible for 9/11. Pilots who opened doors were. People who cooperated with terrorists were. Airport security was in no way responsible for the events that day.

Okie dokie.

Sorry, body imaging is hardly acceptable to all passengers and I doubt the TSA is willing to give any written assurances of its safety.

Whole body imaging, for safety and privacy reasons is DOA for me and for a lot of other people too. It is unnecessary when one uses the WTMD in conjunction with ETP.

It's in the pilot phase now and supposedly more people are willing to submit to that technology than receive the standard pat down.

Screening is a deterrent for terrorism, just like the police force is a deterrent for crime. Will it happen anyways? Most likely. Can we lower the risk with better and more thorough procedures, definitely. I know you don't like ID checks, the electronics checks, shoe checks, LGA rule and so on, but they are necessary to lower the risk of an incident.

They are in no way necessary and those responsible for these disgusting policies should be severely punished.

Some feel we don't need screening at all, and others feel it needs to be more thorough. All of them seem to hate the TSA. The job is finding a balance that shall never be because it will always be too much or never enough.

That is exactly why the TSA should not exist. The airlines should be able to provide as much or as little screening as they want and passengers should be able to make their travel choices on that and other bases.

It's in the pilot phase now and supposedly more people are willing to submit to that technology than receive the standard pat down.

People should not have to choose one evil or the other.

Pat-down harassment and whole body imaging are completely unnecessary if one passes the WTMD and ETP.

For all of your grandstanding posts, you don't want the TSA to be dissolved. If you did, you'd just cease to fly along with other rabid Anti-TSA passengers. If the loss of revenue was large enough, the Airlines would complain and then change would be made. Until then, the TSA is here to stay because your hate of the TSA is not strong enough to deter you from flying. It's just a bunch of hot air because someone you feel is inferior to you has your life in their hands for a few seconds.

For all of your grandstanding posts, you don't want the TSA to be dissolved. If you did, you'd just cease to fly along with other rabid Anti-TSA passengers. If the loss of revenue was large enough, the Airlines would complain and then change would be made. Until then, the TSA is here to stay because your hate of the TSA is not strong enough to deter you from flying. It's just a bunch of hot air because someone you feel is inferior to you has your life in their hands for a few seconds.

BS.

I would happily fly with no TSA. I did so for many years and would be absolutely delighted to do so again.

BS.

I would happily fly with no TSA. I did so for many years and would be absolutely delighted to do so again.

I'm going to spell this out for you, okay.....

You + Other Pax say - We don't want TSA

But

You + Other Pax keep flying

Airlines say - Who cares, we still have their money.

BUT IF

You + Other Pax say - We don't want TSA and we won't fly with them around!

Airlines - :eek:

TSA = Dissolved or reorganized.

But of course that won't happen because TSA does nothing but inconvenience you so there's no real reason not to fly and all of this hemming and hawing is just you blowing off steam.

Some of us won't let a disgusting agency deter us from flying.

However, you are right. If enough passengers gave the airlines a big F-Y and refused to fly at all due to the TSA, the airlines might finally grow a spine and tell the government to get bent.

Some of us won't let a disgusting agency deter us from flying.

However, you are right. If enough passengers gave the airlines a big F-Y and refused to fly at all due to the TSA, the airlines might finally grow a spine and tell the government to get bent.

Yes, so while you hate the TSA, we are tolerable, just like the IRS, Post Office and other reviled federal organs.

Screening is a deterrent for terrorism, just like the police force is a deterrent for crime. Will it happen anyways? Most likely.


Then tailor the screening to the risk. Adding stupid policies and useless procedures does nothing to decrease the risk, and - in fact - increases the risk because screeners are focused on finding the proverbial nail clipper while letting the Semtex through.


Can we lower the risk with better and more thorough procedures, definitely.


Only with appropriate procedures. As you know, the lighter ban actually increased risk because the screeners lost focus. Adding procedures that - by themselves - supposedly decrease risk without considering the impact on the entire system (risk control) may actually increase risk.

I know you don't like ID checks, ... but they are necessary to lower the risk of an incident.


Just today, I got my DL transferred from one state to another. When the DMV issued my new license, it had my picture but someone elses name/address. And, I believe, someone else got my name/address with their picture. I pointed out the error, and it was corrected before I left. But suppose I hadn't? And (I can only imagine) that the other party never noticed & left the office as the DMV workers never called them up. (side note, yes, I've renewed my fraud alert on my credit reports).

Effective security? Hardly. ID is not equal to security.

Yes, so while you hate the TSA, we are tolerable, just like the IRS, Post Office and other reviled federal organs.

I don't think the IRS should exist either.

I like the Post Office.

I have nothing but contempt for the TSA.

I'd wager that some of the agents who breached the airport CPs had IED components concealed in electronics that are/were not currently being screened. :confused:

Aren't electronics already being screened when you run them through the xray? How does taking them out of the bag transform them from unscreened to screened?:confused::confused:

Then tailor the screening to the risk. Adding stupid policies and useless procedures does nothing to decrease the risk, and - in fact - increases the risk because screeners are focused on finding the proverbial nail clipper while letting the Semtex through.

We do not screen for nail clippers.



Only with appropriate procedures. As you know, the lighter ban actually increased risk because the screeners lost focus. Adding procedures that - by themselves - supposedly decrease risk without considering the impact on the entire system (risk control) may actually increase risk.

Our procedures are based on intelligence we are not privy to. It's basically agency head to agency head and it rolls down the line. I enforce it, you endure it. If we had it our way, alot of the procedures would be eliminated by better technology. It's coming, you just have to be patient.


Just today, I got my DL transferred from one state to another. When the DMV issued my new license, it had my picture but someone elses name/address. And, I believe, someone else got my name/address with their picture. I pointed out the error, and it was corrected before I left. But suppose I hadn't? And (I can only imagine) that the other party never noticed & left the office as the DMV workers never called them up. (side note, yes, I've renewed my fraud alert on my credit reports).

Effective security? Hardly. ID is not equal to security.

You're right, but we do more than check IDs.

I'm going to spell this out for you, okay.....

You + Other Pax say - We don't want TSA

But

You + Other Pax keep flying

Airlines say - Who cares, we still have their money.

BUT IF

You + Other Pax say - We don't want TSA and we won't fly with them around!

Airlines - :eek:

TSA = Dissolved or reorganized.

But of course that won't happen because TSA does nothing but inconvenience you so there's no real reason not to fly and all of this hemming and hawing is just you blowing off steam.
For many of us flying is an essential part of our livelihood and going through the TSA poke and prod is one of the most unpleasant parts of an otherwise awesome job. Most of us do more than blow off steam....but I'm sure you haven't read far enough back in the threads to see that.

:confused:

Aren't electronics already being screened when you run them through the xray? How does taking them out of the bag transform them from unscreened to screened?:confused::confused:

We need better X-Ray machines with the latest technology. As it stands it's hard to determine possible components hidden in the electronics if the X-Ray has to penetrate the bag first. Besides, aside from a few ball waving FSDs, most airports only require the largest electronics removed from their bags.

It's attitude like this that makes the destruction of your agency almost assured.

I know that when I look at resumes, if I see TSA in employment history for any length of time and the applicant isn't someone like Bart, that resume is going right into the trash.
Spiff, I admire your hiring choices.

I rejected several former TSO's from working at any of my hotels, and if I were hiring in my new venture, I'd reject them as well... but we also would reject most former theme park employees as well.

Thankfully, former employer isn't a protected class per the EEOC.

Spiff, I admire your hiring choices.

I rejected several former TSO's from working at any of my hotels, and if I were hiring in my new venture, I'd reject them as well... but we also would reject most former theme park employees as well.

Thankfully, former employer isn't a protected class per the EEOC.

Pity, because I'd love to take a 50% paycut......

Pity, because I'd love to take a 50% paycut......
pity, you don't know what I paid :(

or the minimal amount my company charged for medical :(

or what a real union can do for employees :(

Pity indeed

pity, you don't know what I paid :(

or the minimal amount my company charged for medical :(

or what a real union can do for employees :(

Pity indeed

Unless you're operating a world known franchise, I'd wager that compensation for even your manager is on par wth a two stripe TSO, let alone an entry level position. Now, whether I'm right or wrong about that, you'll say I'm wrong anyways.

I think the problem stems from the fact that alot of you don't want to take an order from someone you feel should be shining your shoes or performing some otherwise menial task for your benefit for minimum wage.

Why is that a problem? I'm in the U.K. right now, and here civil servants act like civil servants. They recognize that they are inconveniencing you, but at least they are polite about it. In the States, they bark, among other things.

Why is that a problem? I'm in the U.K. right now, and here civil servants act like civil servants. They recognize that they are inconveniencing you, but at least they are polite about it. In the States, they bark, among other things.

I guess it varies from airport to airport. I rarely hear the TSOs advisements (barks to passengers) at our CP.

I guess it varies from airport to airport. I rarely hear the TSOs advisements (barks to passengers) at our CP.

You need to get around. Particularly, if you're going to discuss something like this among frequent travelers. ;)

Unless you're operating a world known franchise, I'd wager that compensation for even your manager is on par wth a two stripe TSO, let alone an entry level position. Now, whether I'm right or wrong about that, you'll say I'm wrong anyways.

IHG Corporate, better most well known property was the Mark Hopkins IC in San Francisco, but it wasn't my only property. My most well known IHG franchise was the Nickelodeon Hotel in Orlando. Then I left for Starwood, with the Swan and Dolphin, before losing all interest in hospitality and moving to Puerto Rico to start life anew.

The positions I hired for in Orlando were not entry level, and I'm certain that with bonuses, paid considerably more than any front line TSO earned. :)

The internet is an amazing thing, the jerk you're speaking to MAY actually be a live human being that has led a decent life.

The internet is an amazing thing, the jerk you're speaking to MAY actually be a live human being that has led a decent life.

Well then a lot of people here should realise that because some of the TSA folks have taken much abuse. You should take your own advise as should others.

The TSA has plenty of problems, standardisation being the biggest IMO but some people here take the off colour and personal comments to another level.

Ciao,
FH

The TSA has plenty of problems, standardisation being the biggest IMO but some people here take the off colour and personal comments to another level.



I agree. Time to tone things down.

TSA personnel are just doing their jobs. If we find the TSA role offensive, take it to your congressmen and senators. Donate big bucks to those who think like you do. Go for the top.

For now however don't make a painful process more painful for the rest of us. As a cpap user the new show your cpap machine is a pain BUT it is not the screeners fault.

There are bad TSA agents out there. Get their names. File complaints. Copy the politicians with those complaints.

I think the problem stems from the fact that alot of you don't want to take an order from someone you feel should be shining your shoes or performing some otherwise menial task for your benefit for minimum wage.
I don't take "orders" as I'm neither in the armed services, nor a waiter. I also don't take kindly to people who think they can give me "orders." The mindset that government employees can "order" regular citizens around for engaging in regular law abiding activities should make people bristle.

I was nice and edited your post to add an "r" to make the word complete and sentence correct.

Anyway, if you want to delve the most base of logic, no one is forcing you to fly and endure the TSA "totalitarian" policies and let's take your logic even further shall we; no one is forcing you to live in this country who allows us Nazi reincarnate to exist and withhold the common man's last gasp of air under or jackboot.

It amuses me to no end that I am moving to Germany, partially to get away from the modern Nazis.

You know, the best thing we can do with certain posters is to just totally ignore them and not bite on their baiting. They will go away sooner.

Every person hired as a Federal employee (as I was) must "...solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God." 5 U.S.C. §3331

I stand corrected. Thanks for the cite. ^

Unfortunately, no one has answered my question: How can anyone swear to defend the Constitution and then do what TSA employees do every day? It's beyond me.

And just for the record, I would be very disinclined to hire anyone who ever worked for the TSA. I'm not saying it could never happen, but it's extremely unlikely. And, having worked for both the Federal government (for a decade at a high level) and the private sector, I can assure everyone that the private sector pays quite a bit more. TSA employees may not think so, but then again, we know how good their judgment is! :rolleyes:

Bruce

I guess it varies from airport to airport. I rarely hear the TSOs advisements (barks to passengers) at our CP.You don't have to go far. Just head to the airport on the north side of town.

I'm am interested in your thoughts as to how ID checks as currently conducted provide additional security?

You don't have to go far. Just head to the airport on the north side of town.

I'm am interested in your thoughts as to how ID checks as currently conducted provide additional security?

You know, you're not going to get anywhere asking a TSO. Our procedures are determined by intel reports that come from other agencies and are passed down through the pipeline. Whatever policies that are placed into effect come from TSA HQ based on that. Whether the policy makes sense to me matters not (admittedly, without the proper intel, I can't see the reason for ID checks besides the suspicion it raises when anyone doesn't have an ID in this ID centric country), all I can do is do the checks and pass you on. If I were to say, "This policy doesn't make sense and some people on an internet forum are very upset so I refuse to enforce it," well I'd be out of a relatively well paying job for a young, single college student.

You know, you're not going to get anywhere asking a TSO. Our procedures are determined by intel reports that come from other agencies and are passed down through the pipeline. Whatever policies that are placed into effect come from TSA HQ based on that. Whether the policy makes sense to me matters not (admittedly, without the proper intel, I can't see the reason for ID checks besides the suspicion it raises when anyone doesn't have an ID in this ID centric country), all I can do is do the checks and pass you on. If I were to say, "This policy doesn't make sense and some people on an internet forum are very upset so I refuse to enforce it," well I'd be out of a relatively well paying job for a young, single college student.

And to add on to my opinion of the ID check policy, it's a good way to weed out the less sophisticated potential terrorist among us who must rely on fake or altered IDs. For those with real IDs we have other security measures in place that are in place to trip them up. Now, of course I'm sure this is not satisfactory to you, but that's my reasoning. I'm sure the boys at HQ have better reasoning than I do.

For those with real IDs we have other security measures in place that are in place to trip them up.

Yeah, right ....

Do I hear twenty for the Brooklyn Bridge? Going twenty, twenty, twenty, do I hear twenty ....?

Yeah, right ....

Do I hear twenty for the Brooklyn Bridge? Going twenty, twenty, twenty, do I hear twenty ....?

"Smoke up, Johnny!" :D

Yeah, right ....

Do I hear twenty for the Brooklyn Bridge? Going twenty, twenty, twenty, do I hear twenty ....?

I guess I'm not only a TSO, I'm a psychic because I predicted the skepticism. I'll give you twenty for the Brooklyn and some beads for that little strip of island over there.

You know, you're not going to get anywhere asking a TSO. Our procedures are determined by intel reports that come from other agencies and are passed down through the pipeline. Whatever policies that are placed into effect come from TSA HQ based on that. Whether the policy makes sense to me matters not (admittedly, without the proper intel, I can't see the reason for ID checks besides the suspicion it raises when anyone doesn't have an ID in this ID centric country), all I can do is do the checks and pass you on. If I were to say, "This policy doesn't make sense and some people on an internet forum are very upset so I refuse to enforce it," well I'd be out of a relatively well paying job for a young, single college student.

Ah, you're young. :)

Ah, you're young. :)

Yes, but wise beyond my years, though by my choice of employer you may think otherwise.

And to add on to my opinion of the ID check policy, it's a good way to weed out the less sophisticated potential terrorist among us who must rely on fake or altered IDs. For those with real IDs we have other security measures in place that are in place to trip them up. Now, of course I'm sure this is not satisfactory to you, but that's my reasoning. I'm sure the boys at HQ have better reasoning than I do.
It's not a "less sophisticated terrorist" that will be identified, it's the psychos that have been charged up by all the propoganda surrounding the idiocy that is a TSA checkpoint today. These are the same type of people that are now charging cockpit doors when they never considered that action previously.

You dream/talk it, it will happen or at least the fools that are running the government are hoping so they can tell the sheeple "see what a great job we're doing and its soooo necessary" :rolleyes: :td:

BTW, I do not consider the US to be an id-centric society or at least was not until the current foolishness took off ... Papers, please!

Whatever policies that are placed into effect come from TSA HQ based on that. Whether the policy makes sense to me matters not (admittedly, without the proper intel, I can't see the reason for ID checks besides the suspicion it raises when anyone doesn't have an ID in this ID centric country), all I can do is do the checks and pass you on. If I were to say, "This policy doesn't make sense and some people on an internet forum are very upset so I refuse to enforce it," well I'd be out of a relatively well paying job for a young, single college student.Acting without thought is exactly why organizations like the TSA concern me so much. How far will you go before you think for yourself and stop doing something that is wrong. TSA HQ says to tazer anyone with a bottle of water... that ok to you too?? Very extreme example but you get the point.

The idea that someone in HQ thinks its a good idea so I'll do it because they told me so has a LONG and ugly history of ending up in a really really bad place.

Yes, but wise beyond my years..

Someone told you that? That's terrible. :(

The internet is an amazing thing, the jerk you're speaking to MAY actually be a live human being that has led a decent life.

The same holds true for some of the TSA screeners encountered at checkpoints. They have no idea of who they are speaking with, or their backgrounds. Some of the people encountered may actually know more about the "game" than the screener, yet get treated like $h1t. Complaining to supervisors is usually an exercise in futility.

Until TSA accepts responsibility for its actions and becomes accountable to someone, we will continue to see biting criticism. It is great that screeners on this board want to defend their employer; they should not bite the hand that feeds them. They should also realize a great many of the posters here have been through the ringer with asinine rules and contradictory policies that vary from airport to airport. Those posters have every right to criticize and offer solutions, of which many have been offered.

I guess it varies from airport to airport. I rarely hear the TSOs advisements (barks to passengers) at our CP.

Actually the barkers refer not to the announcements but to TSO's who continually bark orders at pax - over and over again.

My whole point about asking how many airports you have been to is that if you have only experienced your own or a very limited number (as a few of our other resident TSOs have admitted) you have NO CLUE what the average pax experiences at other airports. I haven't been through HOU in years so I don't presume to know how things are working there at the moment.

The same holds true for some of the TSA screeners encountered at checkpoints. They have no idea of who they are speaking with, or their backgrounds. Some of the people encountered may actually know more about the "game" than the screener, yet get treated like $h1t. Complaining to supervisors is usually an exercise in futility.

Until TSA accepts responsibility for its actions and becomes accountable to someone, we will continue to see biting criticism. It is great that screeners on this board want to defend their employer; they should not bite the hand that feeds them. They should also realize a great many of the posters here have been through the ringer with asinine rules and contradictory policies that vary from airport to airport. Those posters have every right to criticize and offer solutions, of which many have been offered.

Comparing screeners to snakes and Nazi's, while feeling good, does nothing to address the main criticisms.

So 1 other besides HOU....... no I won't say you are biased I would say you are very naive.

So 1 other besides HOU....... no I won't say you are biased I would say you are very naive.

Perhaps, or, I just don't believe TSO are jackbooted snakes.

Comparing screeners to snakes and Nazi's, while feeling good, does nothing to address the main criticisms.

And you got that out of my post??? Amazing!

And you got that out of my post??? Amazing!

No, no and furthermore no. That's a general observation. I agree, if they have a criticism, air it out. However, what's being solved by comparing federal employees to Nazis? Criticize the agency, criticize the policy, even criticize the individual that harassed you. Me, I don't know you from Adam and likewise for yourself, so don't call me stupid, a Nazi, a snake, or whatever other clever FT term you can muster.

And I'm using you in the general sense, not specifically towards you Vassilipan.

Perhaps, or, I just don't believe TSO are jackbooted snakes.I don't believe ALL of them are either.....but I'm not naive enough to think they are all wonderful individuals either. Of the 25 or so different airports we've been through (1 or more times) so far this year most are fine - some are wretched and staffed with some of the most obnoxious people I've ever had the misfortune to encounter. BOS - my hometown is I'm sad to say the worst IMHO...followed closely by MEM, ORD, PHX and LGA... others aren't good but not terrible. Some are good - for us TUS is fantastic, SFO was excellent as well. As others say your mileage may vary.

Our experience is very limited compared to many others here at FT. Lots of folks here fly way more than we do and I read what they are saying as well. There is a wealth of info here on FT that you could use to be better in your job as a TSO and that we use to aid our travels. But you have to be willing to read what the experiences of pax have been in order to understand it.

I don't believe ALL of them are either.....but I'm not naive enough to think they are all wonderful individuals either. Of the 25 or so different airports we've been through (1 or more times) so far this year most are fine - some are wretched and staffed with some of the most obnoxious people I've ever had the misfortune to encounter. BOS - my hometown is I'm sad to say the worst IMHO...followed closely by MEM, ORD, PHX and LGA... others aren't good but not terrible. Some are good - for us TUS is fantastic, SFO was excellent as well. As others say your mileage may vary.

Our experience is very limited compared to many others here at FT. Lots of folks here fly way more than we do and I read what they are saying as well. There is a wealth of info here on FT that you could use to be better in your job as a TSO and that we use to aid our travels. But you have to be willing to read what the experiences of pax have been in order to understand it.

I'm not a rigid individual, I'll do what I can to aid the pax and make an uncomfortable experience a little better. All I want is the same cooperation in return. Once the passenger gets irate or tries good old "civil disobedience" to put me in my place, then ironically, it's out of my hands as a Supervisor will come over and then it's downhill from there. Most of us want to get you through as quickly as possible, that way your time with us prodding and poking is limited. The more you resist the longer you have to deal with various TSOs.

I'm not a rigid individual, I'll do what I can to aid the pax and make an uncomfortable experience a little better. All I want is the same cooperation in return. Once the passenger gets irate or tries good old "civil disobedience" to put me in my place, then ironically, it's out of my hands as a Supervisor will come over and then it's downhill from there. Most of us want to get you through as quickly as possible, that way your time with us prodding and poking is limited. The more you resist the longer you have to deal with various TSOs.Exactly....... recent posting experience aside I suspect on the job you may actually be one of the good guys. Reasonably polite and interested in getting us through without a hassle. And my husband and I are the same. However as I mentioned after one of your first FT posts...that is not the experience many people are having with the TSOs at other airports so don't go flag waving until you understand why people feel the way they do. Evidently your airport is not giving much reason for people to feel that way so you have not seen what the bigger picture is out there. Some of this stuff is really very bad. I honestly think you don't realize how bad which is why I have suggested reading not just thread but others. The references to jackbooted thugs are not without reason and when faced with that sometimes civil disobedience is necessary.
The fact that the TSA has become a focus point for many who are concerned with the general direction this country is headed makes this a much more heated issue than it probably would be otherwise.

Most of us want to get you through as quickly as possible, that way your time with us prodding and poking is limited.Sooo, getting back to the original topic of this thread, if the TSA at certain checkpoints is insisting on taking out ALL electronics from our bags, seems like your statement here is a contradiction. :confused:

Nothing out of the ordinary at ATL security yesterday.

Early Sept checking in at UA in SEA there were signs at the UA counter about "all electronics out" but at the Xray it was limited to DVD players and video cameras. The confusion didn't help.

You know, you're not going to get anywhere asking a TSO. Our procedures are determined by intel reports that come from other agencies and are passed down through the pipeline. Whatever policies that are placed into effect come from TSA HQ based on that. Whether the policy makes sense to me matters not (admittedly, without the proper intel, I can't see the reason for ID checks besides the suspicion it raises when anyone doesn't have an ID in this ID centric country), all I can do is do the checks and pass you on. If I were to say, "This policy doesn't make sense and some people on an internet forum are very upset so I refuse to enforce it," well I'd be out of a relatively well paying job for a young, single college student.

Many of the procedures come from politics, CYA, and knee-jerk. Very little comes from actual intel.

You may wish that we are all good little sheep, and that we conform to your agency's idea of the "norm", but if we're truly protecting the freedoms under the Constitution then there has to be room for personal expression.

Oh, wait, maybe you think this is the way it should be:


In training the BDOs, "we teach that everybody's been in an airport long enough to know what the norm is," says Carl Maccario, a program analyst for what the TSA calls SPOT, or Screening Passengers by Observation Techniques. "There's an expected norm or an expected baseline environment. . . . We teach the BDOs, in a simplified form, to look for anomalous behavior in that environment."

.....And so you may be distraught because you're flying home to your grandmother's funeral, but the algorithm has detected an anomalous behavior, and the next thing you're being strip-searched by a couple of FBI agents."


Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/15/AR2007111502482_3.html)

Just like there are good policies and bad policies, there are good screeners and bad screeners. Bart is an example of one of the good ones. I have numerous examples of the bad ones.

LOL, did someone's pet rock tell you that? You know, working at the frontlines, I see most of the anger comes from the internet.

I don't think you really mean what you say. The Internet is not pax and therefore does not present itself to you, angrily or otherwise.

I infer, however, that it's your impression that some pax have become steeled against screeners due Internet forums such as this? I doubt that many of those angry pax you've encountered are visitors to Flyertalk or another meeting point on the Internet for frequent fliers. Flyertalk has a relative lot of Internet traffic, but it's still off the radar for most of the traveling public.

IOW, !TSA NP!, couldn't it just be the case that the increased (and often unpleasant) scrutiny of one's body and possessions at airport c/ps simply are irritants in themselves, in the opinion of many travelers?

The average passenger is friendly and at the very least cooperative.

Prima facie friendly and cooperative, perhaps. Most people reflexively present such an affect towards those in real or even questionable authority. It's natural to act that way when you have to give up something to get something back. The higher the stakes, the firmer the game face. The money and energy invested in preparing for a smooth flight these days is not inconsiderable. If that weren't true, then the mere posting of "Do you want to fly today?" would not drip so heavily with implication.

The opportunity cost of not going along with the TSA's flow is significant also because the transaction entails all sorts explicit and tacit contracts among three primary parties (at least) -- pax, airline, federal security agency -- whose interests overlap and conflict.

But let's suppose for the sake of discussion that indeed "[t]he average passenger is friendly and at the very least cooperative." I'd venture a guess that the Facebook Factor (as I like to call it) is far more in play here than most realize. I'm referring to those (of whatever age) who think nothing of posting pages and pages of personal info about themselves on the Web with little regard for unfortunate consequences. And what I'm further suggesting is that they have probably not given much thought to whether there's a corollary between the virtual vomiting of personal information in the websphere and the mindset that individuals are not entitled to retain control of their identifying information. After all, "f you have nothing to hide, what's the harm in giving it [to Person X] upon request?" is nearly impossible to respond to extemporaneously without at least a hint of defensiveness.

Six-plus years ago, who could have imagined that what was once a mere act of revenue protection on the part of the airlines would be copied and then co-opted as a federal act -- of SSI import! -- for the purpose of national security? Six-plus years ago, would could have even dreamed that Flyertalk would be littered with dozens of threads seriously arguing over propositions such as: "If you're really not a terrorist, then you'll show the nice agent your ID and stop holding up the line for the rest of us."

Insensitivity to the notion of personal privacy leaves one without a sensibility of guarding one's identity. Not knowing why ID is requested in any given context, for what purpose and by whom leaves one vulnerable to the whims of whatever random assertion of authority they come up against, harmless intentions or not. Presenting ID has become so reflexive a habit in the last six years or so that, for some, they actually think it's "illegal" (or at least unwise) to walk around outside their homes without it. It's no wonder they have no basis to measure whether what the TSA says about ID is actually true let alone rational.


The same "private" security that failed to thwart the 9/11 attacks right?

Assuming that private security's mandate was to thwart hijackings-in-progress.

But that wasn't part of their mandate that day, was it? And, of course, how could it have been? Security screeners are no more prescient than any other individual in detecting the thoughts and intentions on the minds of those who pass before them every day.

Your implication (in the quote above) is that some posting here think that c/p security screeners were somehow responsible for failing to detect the thoughts and intent of a certain 20 criminal minds on 9/11. So, I guess I'm curious to know, why did you pose the question as you did?

All that can be reasonably asked of c/p screeners is to prevent credible threats -- weapons, explosives -- from being carried on board.

All the statutory reach in the world can be written into law .... but to what purposeful end? (And at what opportunity cost? Can anyone claim with certainty the that current practice of SPOT would have deterred any of the 20 hijackers? Did the lighter ban save us of from any harm?) Once the cabin door is shut, it's the crew (and us, if choose to defend ourselves) against those whose intent is to do harm.

In case you've not spent much time reading through the forum archives, !TSA No Play!, here's the summary analysis about what helped cause or didn't help cause the tragedy on 9/11. Does this seem sensible to you:

Box cutters didn't cause jets to go careening into buildings six years ago any more than did the dozens of bottled drinks brought on those jets by pax and crew members. Jets went careening into structures that morning because a group of men had the total intention of carry out some well-rehearsed, spectacularly horrifying plans to hijack a airliners. The lynch pin of their scheme was the ability to count on the reaction of the overcome crews to do as they were told. Corporate policy of airlines at that time towards hijackers's demands was one of complete complicity to the threat-makers rather than of non-negotiation or attempting to overpower the wrongdoers.

Now, do you really believe that mere box-cutters did the trick?


Look, what I'm saying is to encourage your local congressman to influence the TSA to buy new technologies for their checkpoints. There's only so much I can do without the concurrence of the general public.

Why do you assume that we've not been in contact with elected officials?

And are you saying, "there's only so much" you [I]can do or are actually willing to do?


Well, I'm just going to use the logic prevalent on this forum. It was their fault because they didn't stop it.
Who in the thread has suggested this? Please don't put words into others' mouths and then deride them for "their" logic.


Yes, and I wish the agency would procure only the best technology available and it seems to be on the path of improvement as far as that is concerned. Some of the new technology you may like (X-rays that detect explosives and dedicated liquid screening is on the way so the LGA rule may be lifted eventually) and some you may not like (body imaging).

The MMW goes beyond dislike. It crosses the line of decency and credulity.


I'm going to spell this out for you, okay.....

You + Other Pax say - We don't want TSA

But

You + Other Pax keep flying << Because the alternative to common air carriers is prohibitively expensive to the bottom line of all but a handful of individuals' and business' transactions conducted every day.

Airlines say - Who cares, we still have their money. << In the short run, perhaps.

BUT IF

You + Other Pax say - We don't want TSA and we won't fly with them around!

Airlines - :eek:

TSA = Dissolved or reorganized.

But of course that won't happen because TSA does nothing but inconvenience you so there's no real reason not to fly and all of this hemming and hawing is just you blowing off steam.

I'm baffled by something, !TSA NP!. Is there any empathy possible towards FTers despite that some of their concerns may be inimical or threatening to the existence of the agency your work for? Is it not possible that their reasons for blowing off steam are legitmate? Has it occurred to you that the very reason for this forum's existence is to share news, discuss personal observations *and* blow off steam about a part of the travel experience that bothers us?

If all we're really accomplishing, IYO, is blowing off steam, then why waste your time on such a boring discussion? Methinks you know perfectly well that there's a lot more to the discussion than a 5-second stake in steam venting. @:-)


TSA personnel are just doing their jobs. If we find the TSA role offensive, take it to your congressmen and senators.

Check.

Donate big bucks to those who think like you do. Go for the top.

Checks written, and check.

For now however don't make a painful process more painful for the rest of us.

Why does the "We're-all-in-this-together" appeal rarely fail to come up in these discussions? Oh yeah ...

Because we've run out of arguments. ("Reasoning is hard!")

So, just abdicate one's higher faculties to the herd instinct? Can't we all just get along™? (Thanks, but I'll pass.)

There are bad TSA agents out there. Get their names. File complaints. Copy the politicians with those complaints.

Thanks for the reminder. @:-)

In ten years, when I've earned a BA from a top school and a JD from Harvard, and I'm going to London to close a multi-billion-dollar deal for my investment banking client, and I'm making $250k a year fresh out of Law School because I actually have a brain and I worked my ... off for those credentials (i.e. I've actually done something with my life, like going to college, getting a real job, and going to law school), I appreciate not being treated like ..... I will obviously do my job to the best of my ability, with class and professionalism, and take ownership of it, and I ask, check that, I DEMAND that everyone else I encounter do the same. Anyone who does not do their job to the best of their ability, with class and professionalism, and take ownership of their work is, and will always be, the scum of the earth, or the lowest form of life on earth, or the most despicable thing on the planet, take your pick.

Taking ownership of your work means that admitting to having made a mistake when appropriate. I don't see anyone from TSA doing that, nor do I see anyone from TSA doing their job to the best of their ability, and most people from TSA, from the front line screener to Kip Hawley and Chertoff, act with neither class nor professionalism. Had they been working for a private company they would have been fired a long time ago.

Taking ownership of your work means that admitting to having made a mistake when appropriate. I don't see anyone from TSA doing that, nor do I see anyone from TSA doing their job to the best of their ability, and most people from TSA, from the front line screener to Kip Hawley and Chertoff, act with neither class nor professionalism. Had they been working for a private company they would have been fired a long time ago.

^^^

Accountability and responsibility - two attributes sorely lacking at TSA.

(Gee - I'm agreeing with an attorney. This truly is a strange forum. :D)

And to add on to my opinion of the ID check policy, it's a good way to weed out the less sophisticated potential terrorist among us who must rely on fake or altered IDs. For those with real IDs we have other security measures in place that are in place to trip them up. Now, of course I'm sure this is not satisfactory to you, but that's my reasoning. I'm sure the boys at HQ have better reasoning than I do.

TSA doesn't check IDs, just go through the motion. Never once have I've been question about the old photo ID which barely looks like me. Rarely do they even look up at me when they make the incomprehensible squiggles. My paper temporary DL didn't even get a bat of the eye. (I could have made it at home.)

Many TSOs are great, especially at PDX. But the Gestapo treatment at many others leaves much to be desired.

Nothing out of the ordinary at ATL security yesterday.

Early Sept checking in at UA in SEA there were signs at the UA counter about "all electronics out" but at the Xray it was limited to DVD players and video cameras. The confusion didn't help.

I flew SEA->SMF->SEA yesterday and only was asked to take the laptop out of my bag (I had two phones, and iPod and various cable in my bag which never came out).

In ten years, when I've earned a BA from a top school and a JD from Harvard, and I'm going to London to close a multi-billion-dollar deal for my investment banking client, and I'm making $250k a year fresh out of Law School because I actually have a brain and I worked my ... off for those credentials (i.e. I've actually done something with my life, like going to college, getting a real job, and going to law school), I appreciate not being treated like ..... I will obviously do my job to the best of my ability, with class and professionalism, and take ownership of it, and I ask, check that, I DEMAND that everyone else I encounter do the same. Anyone who does not do their job to the best of their ability, with class and professionalism, and take ownership of their work is, and will always be, the scum of the earth, or the lowest form of life on earth, or the most despicable thing on the planet, take your pick.

Taking ownership of your work means that admitting to having made a mistake when appropriate. I don't see anyone from TSA doing that, nor do I see anyone from TSA doing their job to the best of their ability, and most people from TSA, from the front line screener to Kip Hawley and Chertoff, act with neither class nor professionalism. Had they been working for a private company they would have been fired a long time ago.
You seem like a determined individual, and I wish you the best...

...however, I have never met an attorney in my life to earn a quarter million fresh out of law school, and this includes Harvard alumni with billionaire clients that get hired in "expensive" cities. ;) And with 8 attorneys in my immediate family (we're hispanic... and catholic, and live to THAT stereotype), it's not hard to find a new attorney to compare.

But I do expect you to make your first million by the time you're 32 with this kind of mindset, and to be laughing about this post beforehand :D

Any interaction with a security force can only have a neutral or negative outcome for the civilians immediately involved.

I believe that was the genesis of the "snake" comment. The TSA, by its own admission, is an unpredictable element in travel.

By design, I cannot tell from trip to trip what I will encounter at an airport checkpoint.

I carry more than $15K in photo gear, computer equipment, and assorted weird electronics on almost every trip.

Keeping track of this as it goes out of my sight, knowing that there are criminal pax and (far fewer) criminal screeners who would love to dip into the toys-on-parade does generate a bit of stress.

The "barkers", first time travelers, and unfortunately all-too-often incompetent screeners just add to the unpredictability of the checkpoint.

So, I like snakes. I have no fear of snakes. Even poisonous snakes are cool. However I know that every encounter with one can only have a neutral or negative outcome.

Going through the LAX elite line, yesterday, "barker" was saying to take out all "large" electronics -- laptops, cameras, CD players, etc.

My two carry-ons were crammed with electronics -- my laptop, two digital still cameras, a digital camcorder, and all manner of support electronics, as well as an MD recorder, my Blackberry, three cellphones and, of course, my Bose NC phones and an iPod. I wasn't about to empty my "large" electronics in the bins, particularly my cameras which get held up to my face (think about it -- shoes walk on the ground, shoes go in the bin, what was on the ground gets transferred to the bin, etc.)

I took out the laptop and left everything else in the bags. One bag got pulled for secondary. The screener was polite, as was I. I asked him to change his gloves, which he did. He did a short inspection, ran a couple of swabs and wished me a nice day, which I returned.

Because this was the elite line, I don't know what was happening with the Kettles and the Gomers.

...however, I have never met an attorney in my life to earn a quarter million fresh out of law school, and this includes Harvard alumni with billionaire clients that get hired in "expensive" cities. ;)

Wachtell's up to $235k already with bonus, so some are pretty damn close.

If you take that law degree into banking, $250k's entirely doable.

In ten years, when I've earned a BA from a top school and a JD from Harvard, and I'm going to London to close a multi-billion-dollar deal for my investment banking client, and I'm making $250k a year fresh out of Law School

(Gee - I'm agreeing with an attorney. This truly is a strange forum. :D)

You must've been napping .... he's not taken the bar exam just yet. Go back to sleep. ;)

You seem like a determined individual, and I wish you the best...

...however, I have never met an attorney in my life to earn a quarter million fresh out of law school, and this includes Harvard alumni with billionaire clients that get hired in "expensive" cities. ;)

He did say this was all 10 years down the line. @:-) And what with all the inflation-mongering these days, six-figures in U.S. pesos may well be doable by then. :D

Just ribbing you a little bit, stupidhead. :)

sheeezz!

any chance we can merge all this crap into a "TSA is Evil / no we're not" thread so those of us looking for useful travel info dont have to sift through this crap?

I just want to know what to expect in MIA next week and could give a RA less about anything else ...

sheeezz!

any chance we can merge all this crap into a "TSA is Evil / no we're not" thread so those of us looking for useful travel info dont have to sift through this crap?

I just want to know what to expect in MIA next week and could give a RA less about anything else ...

You've got a point, muddy. I'll give you that. @:-)

Going through the LAX elite line, yesterday, "barker" was saying to take out all "large" electronics -- laptops, cameras, CD players, etc.

My two carry-ons were crammed with electronics -- my laptop, two digital still cameras, a digital camcorder, and all manner of support electronics, as well as an MD recorder, my Blackberry, three cellphones and, of course, my Bose NC phones and an iPod. I wasn't about to empty my "large" electronics in the bins, particularly my cameras which get held up to my face (think about it -- shoes walk on the ground, shoes go in the bin, what was on the ground gets transferred to the bin, etc.)

I took out the laptop and left everything else in the bags. One bag got pulled for secondary. The screener was polite, as was I. I asked him to change his gloves, which he did. He did a short inspection, ran a couple of swabs and wished me a nice day, which I returned.

Because this was the elite line, I don't know what was happening with the Kettles and the Gomers.

Darnit. My flight out of LAX on the 26th will be just lovely, then. That day, will have all camera gear (considerable), plus two laptops and an iPod. The laptops I always expect, but the camera gear, I guess, is getting a secondary. No chance I am letting a brand new digital SLR and all associated lenses, lights and other gear roll around in that dirty bin. Ew.

Any interaction with a security force can only have a neutral or negative outcome for the civilians immediately involved.

I believe that was the genesis of the "snake" comment. The TSA, by its own admission, is an unpredictable element in travel.

By design, I cannot tell from trip to trip what I will encounter at an airport checkpoint.

I carry more than $15K in photo gear, computer equipment, and assorted weird electronics on almost every trip.

Keeping track of this as it goes out of my sight, knowing that there are criminal pax and (far fewer) criminal screeners who would love to dip into the toys-on-parade does generate a bit of stress.

The "barkers", first time travelers, and unfortunately all-too-often incompetent screeners just add to the unpredictability of the checkpoint.

So, I like snakes. I have no fear of snakes. Even poisonous snakes are cool. However I know that every encounter with one can only have a neutral or negative outcome.
That was exactly what I was trying to say with the snake reference - thank you for saying it in a much more understandable way.

I went through ABQ yesterday afternoon and there was no additional screening of electronics.

Darnit. My flight out of LAX on the 26th will be just lovely, then. That day, will have all camera gear (considerable), plus two laptops and an iPod. The laptops I always expect, but the camera gear, I guess, is getting a secondary. No chance I am letting a brand new digital SLR and all associated lenses, lights and other gear roll around in that dirty bin. Ew.

The problem with having your camera gear go through a secondary is that they will insist on unpacking the bag themselves and may not be gentle about how they handle things. When we had this happen the TSO handled our camera gear and external hard drives like old shoes - just dumping them into the bins. We got a 'do you want to fly today' when bzbdavid freaked out about it and tried to unpack it himself.

Just wondering - if something like this happens and they break something what then?? Are you just SOL or does the TSA have to pay for it??

The problem with having your camera gear go through a secondary is that they will insist on unpacking the bag themselves and may not be gentle about how they handle things. When we had this happen the TSO handled our camera gear and external hard drives like old shoes - just dumping them into the bins. We got a 'do you want to fly today' when bzbdavid freaked out about it and tried to unpack it himself.

Just wondering - if something like this happens and they break something what then?? Are you just SOL or does the TSA have to pay for it??

As much as it angers me that they would unpack it, and that I have to choose the lesser of two evils (I shouldn't have to choose, period), how would it be good for very delicate lenses and camera gear going through on a belt, getting bumped around by other bins, rolling around in their own bin? Yeah, that thought is really scary. It is extremely sensitive equipment that will crack under such conditions.

My average gear consists of an SLR, two separate lenses, an external flash, spare batteries, CF cards, and many different types of wires that all connect to different things. The camera body, the lenses and the external flash are what scare me the most. They are in a padded carrying case for a darn good reason.

Oh, I hate this so much. I am so glad to be leaving the US!

You must've been napping .... he's not taken the bar exam just yet. Go back to sleep. ;)

Cheap Wal-Mart glasses.

Just went through screening at LAS. No nonsense. But the lines!!! Took forever and they were snaking around the terminal again! Allow enough time for your flight. Many people missed theirs at UA today. :td: :(

Just went through screening at LAS. No nonsense. But the lines!!! Took forever and they were snaking around the terminal again! Allow enough time for your flight. Many people missed theirs at UA today. :td: :(

How long did you wait? I had 2 hrs + once after a CES. I don't mind checking in early, but you'd have thought that getting to the airport 2.5 hours before flight would be plenty, but no... When LAS gets hosed, it is awful!

Just went through screening at LAS. No nonsense. But the lines!!! Took forever and they were snaking around the terminal again! Allow enough time for your flight. Many people missed theirs at UA today. :td: :(

Why were the lines longer? ID checkers? Or just many passengers vs. screeners?

Interesting.... I went through DCA on Sat (11/17) no issues with electronics (just laptop and kippie bag out of my carry-on) and similar experience coming back through DTW on Sun. Also out of FRA, didnt have to take off the shoes ^

I went through ABQ yesterday afternoon and there was no additional screening of electronics.