MilesBuzz! - BofA card = free miles? Think Again

Gimme an M!
Gimme an S!
Gimme an A!
Gimme an R!

WHAT'S THAT SPELL?

Most likely, you have no idea.

But if you're buying BIG money orders at WalMart or the Post Office to get miles on your debit card, it's time you learned. It's a Money Services Activity Report, to be filled out by the "associate" (employee) for certain suspicious characters like yourself.

The form has three parts. Part I, "Customer information" -- name, address, SS#, etc. Part II (my favorite) is "Customer Activity". This is the part where the minimum wage clerk becomes duly deputized by your Federal government to investigate and report your "activities". Owing to the expected lack of training provided by retailers in this regard, your Federal government has helpfully provided some suggestions, each with a check box, including:

* Two or more persons purchasing items in an attempt to circumvent the $10,000 reporting requirement

* Presenting false identification

* Frequently making purchases of less than $3000

This last one is certainly a potential problem for anyone trying to purchase the maximum $2500/day in MO's.

As per norm with such forms, there are no instructions as to when it is to be filled out or by whom. Like a CTR or SARC (Suspicious Activity Report Casino), the vague guidelines will be left up to the Solomon-like judgment of minimum wage clerks. And they will not be allowed to tell you when or why they are filling it out. And then you'll be on The Master List.

I guess I was lucky the first time I went into WalMart. This was before Xmas, when the Customer Service counter was busy and stocked with reps. I asked for MO's totalling $2500, paid with my debit card, signed, and was out the door in no time. The second time, a manager had the clerk fill out a transaction log, explaining that it was supposed to be done for BIG money orders (over $500, I think).

But today was the piece de resistance. There was only one clerk at the counter, and her main function appeared to be redirecting people with returns to another counter. When she got through yapping with her pal on the phone, and I said the words "money order", the gum-snapping fatty immediately reached for the phone, calling a manager. The manager finally came, but her face contorted like Jamie Lee Curtis' in Halloween when I told her how much I wanted. She too started reaching for the phone. Didn't she know how to do money orders either? "Yes, but I've never done a BIG one." That's when she got out THE BOOK, containing the MSAR form. "There's two forms here, which do I fill out?" No one knew.

"Thanks, anyway," I said, and left.

Appealing as the prospect of getting 100K Alaska miles for a little shoe leather is, it's not worth being tagged a drug dealer/terrorist/money launderer and put on The Master List.

Just think of it: actual government employees were paid to dream up and design this form. Tens, maybe hundreds. They had meetings, they drank bad coffee, they went back to their desks, they loosened their polyester ties, they had more meetings. This went on for months.

Then they had a new project: distributing the new form and writing guidelines and rules for its use. Real live, breathing human beings did this. "Honey," one said, loosening his polyester tie, "I wish you could see what's been keeping me late at the office all year. It's truly going to make the world a better place."

Your tax dollars at work.

[This message has been edited by Bidkat (edited 12-31-2002).]

I thought walmart doesnt accept
debit cards for money orders?
Do they?

Also if you pay your bills using
a money order, instead of writing
a check, how could that be construed as
money laundering. In fact, you are paying
money to the post office(federal
institution) in the form of fees for
a money order. So the govt should be
happy:-)

Interesting. But the lesson to be learned from this story is to keep your transactions small, regardless of the urge to earn your 100,000 Alaska Airlines miles as soon as possible.
Maybe just buy a $750 money order at WalMart one week, the post office the next week, and Albertsons the next. Also, buy money orders for some of your regular large expenses, like your mortgage, rent, property taxes, or insurance.
As far as the Government coming after you, nothing you've done is against the law. There is nothing illegal about buying a $2,500 money order on your B of A debit card at WalMart, and then depositing it back into your checking account. Whether you'll have to explain that at a jury trial, I don't know.
But buying money orders is a far stretch from it having to do with drug dealing. I don't think the street drug dealers in my town are now accepting money orders for payments. It's still a cash business.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Bidkat:
I asked for MO's totalling $2500, paid with my debit card, signed, and was out the door in no time. </font>

You don't sign when you pay via debit. You enter your PIN.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dbmaury:
You don't sign when you pay via debit. You enter your PIN.</font>

If your debit card has a MasterCard or Visa logo, you can do either. Many FF programs will NOT give you miles if you use your PIN.

------------------
Vasant

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by vasantn:
If your debit card has a MasterCard or Visa logo, you can do either. Many FF programs will NOT give you miles if you use your PIN.

</font>

You are right. However, this thread is in reply to this one:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/007973.html

It talks about using a B of A Debit card to earn miles. This card gives miles for PIN based transactions. The thread was about using the card to buy money orders. You can only purchase them with the debit feature and not the credit feature.

I have tried 4 walmart stores in Kansas City and none of them will allow you to use your debit card for money orders but I am still doing the post office I have just started so I hope this works....

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Bidkat:

Just think of it: actual government employees were paid to dream up and design this form. Tens, maybe hundreds. They had meetings, they drank bad coffee, they went back to their desks, they loosened their polyester ties, they had more meetings. This went on for months.

Then they had a new project: distributing the new form and writing guidelines and rules for its use. Real live, breathing human beings did this. "Honey," one said, loosening his polyester tie, "I wish you could see what's been keeping late at the office all year. It's truly going to make the world a better place."

Your tax dollars at work.</font>

Although I understand your frustration, the purpose of these laws is to stop or slow money laundering. Money laundering is performed by people making repeated transactions changing money from a trackable form (debit card) to a bearer instrument (money order) at amounts just below the reportable transaction limits. It makes sense to investigate anyone who makes numerous transactions which fit into the above parameters. Those govt employees were told by their supervisors to come up with a way to slow down money laundering, and they came up with the only practical method. If you have a better way, I'm sure they would be happy to hear it. Its easy to bash faceless govt employees, but try to put yourself in their shoes every now and then and realize that most are doing their job, as assigned by the politicians we elected, to the best of their ability. I'm sure as a writer you could actually go spend a couple weeks observing these employees so you can see what they really do, then report back to us if they are really as stupid as you seem to think they are.

sorry for the edit.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Ken in Phx:
Just waiting for the new yearso i can get my 100k miles from Alaska and 100k from USAir.</font>

Don't get me wrong ... I see nothing wrong in taking advantage of the loopholes the system offers.

But this kind of abuse (rather than the subtler kind http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif) will cause more restrictions which will eventually hurt all of us.

------------------
Vasant

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Bidkat:
Gimme an M!
Gimme an S!
Gimme an A!
Gimme an R!

WHAT'S THAT SPELL?

Most likely, you have no idea.

But if you're buying BIG money orders at WalMart or the Post Office to get miles on your debit card, it's time you learned. It's a Money Services Activity Form...</font>

Aside from the merits of the concept, which have been debated above and surely will be debated more below, can someone explain to me how "Form" creates an "R" in the acronym?

[This message has been edited by Ken in Phx (edited 12-28-2002).]

Burgerwars wrote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Interesting. But the lesson to be learned from this story is to keep your transactions small, regardless of the urge to earn your 100,000 Alaska Airlines miles as soon as possible.
Maybe just buy a $750 money order at WalMart one week, the post office the next week, and Albertsons the next. Also, buy money orders for some of your regular large expenses, like your mortgage, rent, property taxes, or insurance.
As far as the Government coming after you, nothing you've done is against the law. There is nothing illegal about buying a $2,500 money order on your B of A debit card at WalMart, and then depositing it back into your checking account.</font>

Do it enough times, and you're probably wrong.

The US Department of Treasury defines smurfing as follows:
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">The U.S. Department of Treasury Financial Crimes Enforcement Network defines smurfing as a money laundering placement technique in which the launderer divides large cash deposits into smaller amounts and attempts thereby to avoid CTR reporting requirements.</font>

Does this sound familiar at all?

For an interesting summary of the National Drug Intelligence Center's take on money laundering, see:

National Drug Threat Assessment 2001 - The Domestic Perspective (http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs/647/money.htm) or

The 2001 National Money Laundering Strategy (http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/afmls/ml2001.pdf)

Greg

To be guilty of money laundering, you must be laundering a fraudulent activity. If there is no fraudulent activity ie Drugs, guns, identity theft then there is no crime or problem. Moving money from one account that has your name to another for the purpose of paying bills or spending said funds is neither laundering or criminal. However, I find the threats by some posters here to be laughable in their attempts to scare others from earning miles in a way that is creative and fresh. Such animosity for those who dont follow the crowd. Glad we live in the U.S.A. !!!!

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Ken in Phx:
To be guilty of money laundering, you must be laundering a fraudulent activity...</font>

Sure, you might not be GUILTY. But, if your name gets added to some list, then you are open to all kinds of problems for a long time. The list might note you as a POTENTIAL crook. But, the list also contains lots of real badguys, that just have not been nailed yet. Sort of like someone reporting you as a sex offender. You can be totally innocent, and even get the police or courts to issue a statement, but too late, you have been branded.

Bottom line, like the current security foolishness at airports, the gov't gets your name on a list for seemingly innocent reasons, then what is next?

. .

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Ken in Phx:
I have bought 2,000 worth or more of Money Orders 150 times in the last year and never filled out any paper work at any location.</font>

Ken,

Isn't the earned mileage limit for the BofA Plat card 100K miles/year? Seems your purchases would have netted you 150K otherwise.

As for the paperwork, YOU don't fill out a thing. THEY do. Like other Suspicious Activity reports, they're not allowed to tell you when or why they're doing it.

But if i was paying cash, we wouldnt be posting it as a mile earning adventure.

While I generally agree with the above post, I was asked to complete the form in question when I purchased 3 $1,000 money orders in Boston last month. The form asked for quite a bit of personal information, drivers licence, social security number etc. When I objected, the Post Office clerk told me that all I needed to do was to purchase no more than 2 $1,000 money orders at a time, simple enough. So, even with a line of people behind me, I was asked to fill out one of these forms.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Efrem:
Aside from the merits of the concept, which have been debated above and surely will be debated more below, can someone explain to me how "Form" creates an "R" in the acronym?</font>

It doesn't. I bet it's a Money Services Activity Report...

Since you're not doing anything illegal, why do you care if they're filling out a report?

After a very successful Vegas weekend a couple of years ago, I deposited over $14K in cash at my bank. I then asked for a copy of the CTR so that I could prove to my friends that I that I won it... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

A Libertarian Party press release on this very topic:

http://www.lp.org/press/archive.php?function=view&record=212

Thanks, Flying Dutchman! Excellent article.

If they're unhappy about postal employees spying on us, I'm sure they won't be thrilled with the deputizing of WalMart spies. :-)

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Flying Dutchman:
A Libertarian Party press release on this very topic:

http://www.lp.org/press/archive.php?function=view&record=212</font>

"Although officials decline to reveal how many "suspicious" customers have been reported to law enforcement, the Post Office sells about $27 billion in money orders a year. This means that tens or hundreds of thousands of Americans may have been identified as potential drug dealers or money-launderers by postal employees."

Imagine the miles on $27 billion ...

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by skofarrell:
I deposited over $14K in cash at my bank. I then asked for a copy of the CTR so that I could prove to my friends that I that I won it... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif</font>

A CTR, or Currency Transaction Report, is very different from the "suspicious activity" forms, like SARC or MSAR. The CTR dates back to Reagan times, 1984. The government has virtually admitted that the form is useless, especially in casino transactions where they are so common that they have developed a spinoff called a CTR-CASINO.

The suspicious activity forms were developed because, supposedly, reporting every $10,000 transaction was not enough. Originally, winnings were exempt from CTR's, as the government claimed they were only interested in tracking the source of moneys brought _in_ to a casino. Then suddenly, ALL transactions over 10K -- even non-cash jackpot disbursements -- suddenly required a form. Then that wasn't enough: they needed to track transactions of $3000 or more. Then that wasn't enough -- any transaction of ANY size could be reported if deemed "suspicious" (by a duly authorzied WalMart employee).

The point is, there will never be enough forms to satisfy the government.

Where are they gathering info from ? Are they following me home ? Are they hiding in the parking lot shopping carts waiting for me to pull up ? LOL...this is the silliest topic I have ever been a part of. It still begs the question....If you arent committing an illegal act smuggling drugs, laundering money, smurfing, or engaging in terrorist activities.......THEN WHY WOULD YOU CARE WHAT HAPPENS....I am already oon the biggest government watchdog list...And I make my first payment of the year every April 15. THEY ALREADY KNOW ALL MY BUSINESS...TOTAL SALARY, EXPENSES, CHILD CARE ETC....What the big deal if they put me on another list ?? LOL

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Ken in Phx:
It still begs the question....If you arent committing an illegal act smuggling drugs, laundering money, smurfing, or engaging in terrorist activities.......THEN WHY WOULD YOU CARE WHAT HAPPENS....</font>

Do you mail your personal letters in envelopes? (Why, if you've got nothing to hide?)
Would you mind abolishing the secret ballot? (Why, if you're a loyal American?)
Would you submit to random drug tests on the streets?
(Why, if you're not using any?)

Personally, I value my right to privacy, but I suppose in America that's an 'un-patriotic' sentiment these days since Bush has declared that you're either with him or the terrorists.

Is the Bank of America debit card you are talking about the one with an annual fee of $30 and gives you one mile for every two dollars you spend? I am new to this and wand to make sure I get the right card. Thank you.

deleted, entered twice in error

[This message has been edited by skiner (edited 01-02-2003).]

Don't listen to Ken. He's a terrorist... on all sorts of lists and stuff, I heard http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

How hilarious is it that the US Dept of Treasury has a formal definition on file for the word smurfing. What about smurfy, smurfilicious, smurfed, etc.? Gee Smurfette, you're looking smurfiliciously smurfy today.

Talk about a bunch of human beings in a meeting room, drinking bad coffee, wearing bad ties, brainstorming this one. What else was on that whiteboard when the committee voted on "smurfing"?

skiner,

Yes, you're talking about the right card. $30 annual fee, 3K bonus miles for signing up, 1 mile for every $2, max of earning 100K miles annually.

Wow!
This thread goes off on more tangents than - ME!

Just back from a great holiday overseas (but not such a great UAL flight starting out) and checking in to say Happy New Year!

As for me, the good ole' BofA cahd is doing just fine. 36k and climbing... no forms, no probs, no conspiracies or lists... Just right.

Why all the worries, mates? Just get one and earn.

(which hardly explains why, upon my return, the IRS, a Bank of America exec, and airport security were waiting to escort me out of the terminal, bring me to a small windowless room, sit me down under a hot hanging lamp and make me wait for what seemed like days... hours, even...

Then, out of nowhere, this tall, Germanic- looking man hurriedly entered and slammed the door shut. He leaned toward me from across the desk with his stern face and monocle on, and said, "Sir, vee are takink bach zose mylez!" With the stroke of a pen and a big ink stamp, my Alaska Airlines account was empty and that was that! The camera panned to a bird's eye view and I shreaked, "KHAAAAAAAN!!!!" But then he walked out and I was free to leave, just like that.)

A wise man in here once reminded me, at a time when I really NEEDED a vacation: It's all only about MILES... 36k and climbing.


------------------
If speed is not your thing, distance may as well be. Enjoy and embrace it all!

When I buy money orders at USPS, am I
forced to use PIN based transaction,
or can I also use signature based
transaction.

I did do a search on the flyertalk and
read all the relevant posts. Still not clear
to me:-). I called a post office and
the guy didnt seem to know that much.

Citibank Advantage card gives 1:1 for
a 65$ annual fee debit card, but that
works only for signature based purchases.

If USPS accepts signature based cards,
citibank Advantage card seems like
the best debit card to have.

Since most of you have BOFA debit card,
I think I am missing something?

USPS accepts Sig based for everything EXCEPT PIN. You need to PIN to get MO's.

Get BofA. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

This thread is definitely an interesting read.

It made me start wondering. Now that many FT'ers have CharterOne and other cash churning/point earning systems under their belt, has anyone noticed any increased scrutiny or harrasment over significant money order transactions?
Or has our activity come up as benign and under the noise floor?

From what I've read elsewhere it seems that banks are highly suspicious of large amounts of money orders being deposited by an individual. Even if you stick to the under $3K rule per deposit, banks are still required to report frequent cash transactions as suspicious activity. Again, maybe all this is just lost in the noise. But it would be interesting to hear people's experience.

No problems yet...have been depostiting 5K+ at a time.

My Washington Mutual branch tells me that money orders do not get reported, because they are not cash.

Newbie here. So this still works? Or does it depend WHERE you buy the MO?