Newsstand - United on CNN about delays

flight from hell:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/10/31/lawrence.flight.from.hell.cnn

I wonder if they got the bonus miles for the holding pattern?

No but they should all register at united.com/business1 to get the 500 mile reliability guarantee!

Not particularly noteworthy.

Actually, maybe a bit unfair. Circling for several hours was not United's fault. All the more true in the larger context because United doesn't have a big presence at NYC airports, so it is not one of the airlines causing congestion at EWR, LGA, and JFK.

That's nothing.. ask me about my 9 hour US flight last year DCA-PHL

Not particularly noteworthy.

Actually, maybe a bit unfair. Circling for several hours was not United's fault. All the more true in the larger context because United doesn't have a big presence at NYC airports, so it is not one of the airlines causing congestion at EWR, LGA, and JFK.As long as the airlines continue to prefer running many RJs, as opposed to fewer mainline jets, these kinds of delays will persist. It most definitely is United's fault, along with all the other legacy carriers who have shifted operations to RJs.

As long as the airlines continue to prefer running many RJs, as opposed to fewer mainline jets, these kinds of delays will persist. It most definitely is United's fault, along with all the other legacy carriers who have shifted operations to RJs.

That itself is a problem caused by the failure to rationally auction off landing slots, though the airlines themselves have opposed any shift to an auction. Among other things, the fees are only based on gross weight, which doesn't accurately measure the amount of congestion that the airplane takes, and they don't vary by time of day. The former especially encourages flying more RJs, especially since consumers overall like having more convenient times over flying in larger planes with fewer times per day. So long as the incentives in the form of prices aren't consistent, congestion is inevitable.

There are plenty of economics papers suggesting better ways to price the landing slots, and the FAA has even investigated a few auction ideas, but the carriers themselves oppose it. (Short-sightedly, in my view.)

As long as the airlines continue to prefer running many RJs, as opposed to fewer mainline jets, these kinds of delays will persist. It most definitely is United's fault, along with all the other legacy carriers who have shifted operations to RJs.

I don't disagree with the premise, but to be consistent in this line of thinking you must add corporate jets to blame. But I believe more culpable is how the F.A.A. has run the air traffic control system. This is one area where Americans can learn from the Canadians.

Wonder how CNN happened to put their reporters on a flight that was so badly delayed? What if they had put them on a flight that happened to be on time.

As long as the airlines continue to prefer running many RJs, as opposed to fewer mainline jets, these kinds of delays will persist. It most definitely is United's fault, along with all the other legacy carriers who have shifted operations to RJs.

Honestly, I think United is the least to blame of the legacy carriers. United only flies RJs into JFK, LGA, and EWR from IAD (its hub) ... otherwise, all flights are on mainline metal. United does not operate non-hub RJ flights from various destinations along the East Coast into these airports (think Delta, US Airways, American).

Honestly, I think United is the least to blame of the legacy carriers. United only flies RJs into JFK, LGA, and EWR from IAD (its hub) ... otherwise, all flights are on mainline metal. United does not operate non-hub RJ flights from various destinations along the East Coast into these airports (think Delta, US Airways, American).

Your comment is NYC specific. I don't think PTravel's was.

Your comment is NYC specific. I don't think PTravel's was.

I assumed PTravel was responding AlanInDC's comments about congestion at EWR, LGA, and JFK given the quotation involved. Regardless, I do not think United is really a part of the problem in NYC.

I assumed PTravel was responding AlanInDC's comments about congestion at EWR, LGA, and JFK given the quotation involved. Regardless, I do not think United is really a part of the problem in NYC.

I agree. I think UA wasn't even invited to the conference/meetings that were held between the government and some airlines (AA/CO/DL/B6 were there, I believe) on Summer 2008 schedule reductions into NYC area airports.

I assumed PTravel was responding AlanInDC's comments about congestion at EWR, LGA, and JFK given the quotation involved. Regardless, I do not think United is really a part of the problem in NYC.

Nah. His comment was broader. Large operators of RJ's are the problem when it comes to heavy delays in the US ATC system. UA may not be one of the biggest problems in NYC, but they certainly are in CHI. And delays in one airport (especially a big one like ORD) lead to "trickle down" effect throught the system.

I agree. I think UA wasn't even invited to the conference/meetings that were held between the government and some airlines (AA/CO/DL/B6 were there, I believe) on Summer 2008 schedule reductions into NYC area airports.

That's not the point. UA, like all major operators of RJ's, are the problem for the US ATC system. Picking one market (where UA is a minor player) and using that as an example to say UA is not part of the problem, is absurd.

That's not the point. UA, like all major operators of RJ's, are the problem for the US ATC system. Picking one market (where UA is a minor player) and using that as an example to say UA is not part of the problem, is absurd.

At EWR one needs to look at CO, a massive operator of RJ's. At LGA/JFK, AA is taking a fair share, and B6. IMO of course.

At EWR one needs to look at CO, a massive operator of RJ's. At LGA/JFK, AA is taking a fair share, and B6. IMO of course.

Yeah.....and at ORD one needs to look at UA.

And....?

Yeah.....and at ORD one needs to look at UA.

And....?

I thought we were talking about the NYC congestion issue. Which was not related to UA. :p

Moving to Newsstand.

iluv2fly
Moderator, UA

Whilst finding the appropriate track, I noted many diversions and extended flight times for a/c on this route. LGA is a universe all its own ;)

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL836/history/20071020/0037Z/KORD/KMDT

Pat

That's nothing.. ask me about my 9 hour US flight last year DCA-PHL
Tell us about your 9 hour US flight last year DCA-PHL.

Tell us about your 9 hour US flight last year DCA-PHL.Yea -- that beats my 9 hour EWR-ORD ordeal of a few years ago.

So let's see, a group of effete little junior journalists who all share a condo in Jackson Heights and just graduated from SUNY Stony Brook, experience their first delay on an aircraft ("never delayed going to Cancun, maaaaaaaaaan!"), spend the evening circling the skies above Poop, Pennsylvania, and therefore miss their date at the the SweetCheeks nightclub in SoHo where they had save up for 6 months in order to reserve table service, and so get all biyatchy and make a little movie about themselves, and then shove it past their editor and proffer it as news

Just further proof that our ATC is outdated and unable to support the demand. Let's not forget the corporate jets that are much more frequently used that take up the same amount of time and energy of ATC. Not UA fault, they would land if they could choose to, versus burning fuel, could have been much worse.

So let's see, a group of effete little junior journalists who all share a condo in Jackson Heights and just graduated from SUNY Stony Brook, experience their first delay on an aircraft ("never delayed going to Cancun, maaaaaaaaaan!"), spend the evening circling the skies above Poop, Pennsylvania, and therefore miss their date at the the SweetCheeks nightclub in SoHo where they had save up for 6 months in order to reserve table service, and so get all biyatchy and make a little movie about themselves, and then shove it past their editor and proffer it as news

what's the point of this rant?

what's the point of this rant?

You tell me, Tastemaker, what's the point of this little rantzine (http://www.thepoliticalrant.com/)? "I hate MTA, I hate Gap...?"

Folks, it's not an ATC problem, it's a lack of runways. Allowing airplanes to fly closer to each other enroute won't help if they have to get in a long line waiting for their spot on the available runways at the congested airports.

Corporate jets generally avoid the congested airports and land at other airports in the area which are often more convenient for their passengers anyway.

One sollution would be to determine the number of operates each airport can handle (ATC already knows this for each airport) then give those slots to whomever will pay the highest landing fees for them. Rebid the slots frequently so new entrants, who are willing to pay more, have ample oppertunity to get slots. As the cost increases the airlines will have incentive to use larger airplanes during the peek times and to schedule more flights during non-peak periods. The increased revenue will allow the airport to make improvements and, eventually, fund runway expansion projects to relieve the congestion.