Mileage Run Discussion - Moderation Methodology/Feedback re: 'Good Deal/Premium Fare' Thread

Good Evening Avid and Passionate MR Forum Members-

I'm inclined to give everyone the benefit-of-the-doubt that the last few pages of posts are simply a function of a short-term burst of negative energy, not a long-term deterioration in the otherwise pleasant dialogue here.

This particular thread is no different than every other thread on page one of the MR forum...focus should be on AIRLINE/ ROUTING/ FARE (w/out taxes or all-in)/ and other relevant info that merits being in the thread title- limited booking window, specific booking engine, etc.

For issues pertaining to POSTING CONDUCT for MR fares, I'd be grateful if everyone could shift discussion to the handy link below in MR Discussion.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=742126

I realize that there are compelling arguments about the value of posting these types of fares in general, and how to post such fares in such a way to benefit appreciative FTers, yet not kill the fare.

I'm not sure that the above thread will necessarily resolve these prickly issues, but it should be your thread of choice from this point on, to articulate your positions.

I have initiated contact with the other Mods to determine how best to keep this thread of continued usefullness, as the bulk of the 100 or so pages contain outdated fares and routings, as well as alot of extraneous commentary.

Will try and keep everyone posted.


To reiterate, my hope is that moving forward, posts here will focus on airline/routing/fare/misc. format.

Much obliged!

Pages 84-106 have been recently examined in an attempt to better organize and streamline the burgeoning posts over the last couple of days.

1. Posts directly adding information about the CMB-JFK fare were moved to a new thread EK/TG/AZ: CMB-JFK $1100 (Business Class). Hopefully, consolidating relevant info into 5 pages will be more user friendly than 23 pages!!
2. Posts debating about whether to/ or much of this fare/routing to reveal, were moved to MR Discussion Forum thread 'Good Deal Premium Fares' Discussion
3. Posts where members self-deleted info, those posts were deleted to eliminate clutter.
4. Posts about wanting to be PMd are still in this thread.
5. Posts about people's booking experiences that do not reference anything specific enough to assist other posters , are still in this thread.
6. Posts that I couldn't really figure out where to put 'em, are still in this thread!!

Your assistance in posting in the designated threads now open, would be helpful and greatly appreciated.

I hope that I am providing members a transparent and accountable explanation for the actions taken today.

Cheers
Steve
beaubo

Pages 84-106 have been recently examined in an attempt to better organize and streamline the burgeoning posts over the last couple of days.

1. Posts directly adding information about the CMB-JFK fare were moved to a new thread EK/TG/AZ: CMB-JFK $1100 (Business Class). Hopefully, consolidating relevant info into 5 pages will be more user friendly than 23 pages!!
2. Posts debating about whether to/ or much of this fare/routing to reveal, were moved to MR Discussion Forum thread 'Good Deal Premium Fares' Discussion
3. Posts where members self-deleted info, those posts were deleted to eliminate clutter.
4. Posts about wanting to be PMd are still in this thread.
5. Posts about people's booking experiences that do not reference anything specific enough to assist other posters , are still in this thread.
6. Posts that I couldn't really figure out where to put 'em, are still in this thread!!

Your assistance in posting in the designated threads now open, would be helpful and greatly appreciated.

I hope that I am providing members a transparent and accountable explanation for the actions taken today.

Cheers
Steve
beaubo


I strongly disagree with your decision.

:td:

I see no reason why it should be a Mod's choice as to moving selected snippits from one thread to a new one, that makes an announcment of the facts contained within this thread. It had previously been mooted that this thread be closed and each fare given a different thread. This was deemed the wrong choice by many of the frequent posters to this thread , and at least it seemed that idea was rejected by myself and quite a few others. So you have chosen to ignore this.
Also i do appreciate that its good to share, and also that airlines monitor these boards. But making an announcment of the facts to one and all, will ensure it is passed onto other boards. such as fatwallet/SD etc. And the demise will be even sooner. ( i very much doubt the public could have worked out to easily how to book these fares as it was in this thread)

My point from earlier that only FT board members should be included in such discussion is still the main point. As someone who works very hard at finding out opportunities for such a fare and sharing them when asked (over 150 pm's on this fare) only to have you write out in detail what viewers have to do , is wrong. If you worked on something for X hours and a friend nicked all the good stuff you wouldn't be happy either



I would suggest that in future you make your intentions clear from the outset. then we on FT can make choices as to what we will post on and what we will PM.

Had i known that all fares will be posted on the main board, i can then make informed choices.


When i first joined FT , and was looking to do a cheap RTW ex CAI. i was told by many senior members . have a look around FT and you will find the answers. I never got go to X site, type in ... do ... etc. It was a learining process which maybe tough to hear but i learnt rules/fares etc ,what at the time i thought was a bit hard but helped out to ultimately benefit FT. This seems to no longer be the case.

Normally, Moderator conduct is not subject to member analysis. In this instance, because I specifically posted my methodology for my actions, I welcome constructive feedback if you are so inclined.
It would be helpful if you would post SPECIFIC observations like:
* WHY you disagree with the Mod actions
* HOW you would handle this situation differently
* WHY status quo shoukd have been maintained

Thanks.

I can't speak for ajinlondon, but my feeling is that the new reorganization gives too much visibility to the fare, which may produce a lot of bookings by lurkers and attract even more attention from the airlines, leading to a quick(er) pulling of the fare. The goal some of us had is to share it with the community without making it too overtly obvious (in hindsight, this was probably not a realistic goal). This involved a lot of effort in writing and answering PMs.

In addition, since the fare is still live, I'm not sure what's the point of dividing the discussion into so many different threads. IMO, It would be in the benefit of the community to keep all aspects of this in the same place for now.

My point from earlier that only FT board members should be included in such discussion is still the main point. As someone who works very hard at finding out opportunities for such a fare and sharing them when asked (over 150 pm's on this fare) only to have you write out in detail what viewers have to do , is wrong. If you worked on something for X hours and a friend nicked all the good stuff you wouldn't be happy either

I can see your point.

And I have to say I think I agree that moving may not have been the best idea.

B

My point from earlier that only FT board members should be included in such discussion is still the main point. As someone who works very hard at finding out opportunities for such a fare and sharing them when asked (over 150 pm's on this fare) only to have you write out in detail what viewers have to do , is wrong. If you worked on something for X hours and a friend nicked all the good stuff you wouldn't be happy either


Couldn't have been said better. All today's actions have done is ensure that an even smaller segment of the FT population will post a mistake if they find one. To some, that's a good thing. But for FT, maybe not. Quite ironic!

I can see your point.

And I have to say I think I agree that moving may not have been the best idea.

B

I also agree with iwillflytheworld. Nobody restricted access to Flyertalkers. We thought that keeping the fare somewhat covert would keep it alive a bit longer. Personally, I'm happy that I got 3 of these beasts and that I managed to help a couple FTers get theirs, and I will have no hard feelings if the fare gets pulled first thing in the morning. But it would be ueber-cool if we could keep it alive a bit longer.

Shouldn't this discussion take place in the Discussion forum.

This thread is a mess. We kind of like it that way. But it was apparent by the number of complaints that the info was hard to find in this case.

I'm not to thrilled that it now has its own thread. My thoughts that it's far to visible to those outside of the 'purchasing' crowd were confirmed now that I see it in action. I'm not critical that you did it, but would prefer a different approach for the next one.

I'm more in favor of a new First & Business Class Deal thread.
As stated, many fares in the current thread aren't active anymore.

THanks for your feedback, aj. I will attempt to address your well-thought out and well-articulated points below.

But first a key disclaimer. The purpose of this dilogue is not establish who's right and who's wrong, as this is clearly a subjective situation. So, my goal is NOT to defend, but explain, and I am hopeful I'll get the same reciprocity from those choosing to weigh in.


I strongly disagree with your decision.

:td:

I see no reason why it should be a Mod's choice as to moving selected snippits from one thread to a new one, that makes an announcment of the facts contained within this thread. It had previously been mooted that this thread be closed and each fare given a different thread. This was deemed the wrong choice by many of the frequent posters to this thread , and at least it seemed that idea was rejected by myself and quite a few others. So you have chosen to ignore this.

Up until the CMB-JFK announcement, the Good Deals Premium Fares thread had 83 pages since Feb 2006. In less than 3 days, an additional 23 pages had been added, with an incredible mish mash of good info, inaccurate info, speculation, calls for beeing more hush-hush, calls for being more expository, frantic PM requests, self-deletes, some personal attack volleying, etc.

5 other interesting MR options were getting snowed under all the CMB-JFK posts, so they were culled out and given their own threads. Was just a simple courtesy for those members who don't pop by here daily (or hourly!!) to stay current. Otherwise it would have been unlikely, not to mention quite time consuming to expect someone to dig through 24 pages to find those other fares.



[QUOTE=ajinlondon;8634368]
Also i do appreciate that its good to share, and also that airlines monitor these boards. But making an announcment of the facts to one and all, will ensure it is passed onto other boards. such as fatwallet/SD etc. And the demise will be even sooner..

I will not dispute your contention that publicizing these types of fares has risks. And I encourage you to share your point of view on MR Discussion board which was set up for this express purpose. Clearly, there is an equilibrium that needs to be hashed out about this issue.

That said, the fact that this thread has been at the top of page one on the MR Forum for weeks at a time, is certainly enough of a tip off, that this is an active thread. So, I'm not not sure about the relative impact of an individual thread vs. being at the end of this bulk thread being at the top of page one. It is easy to click 'last page' on this thread and get right to the heart of the matter.


My point from earlier that only FT board members should be included in such discussion is still the main point. As someone who works very hard at finding out opportunities for such a fare and sharing them when asked (over 150 pm's on this fare) only to have you write out in detail what viewers have to do , is wrong. If you worked on something for X hours and a friend nicked all the good stuff you wouldn't be happy either

aj, I have not written anything out in detail. I have simply aggregated what your fellow posters have chosen to post. While you might disagree with my consolidating tactic, which is well within your right, please know that I did not edit anyone else's posts nor add any of my own information here.

At the end of the day, it is the responsibility and initiative of the OP of any given fare/routing to choose to reveal what they think is appropriate.

I hope that I've addressed your concerns, although I might not have RESOLVED them!

I've also answered many PM's on this and find myself, reluctantly, agreeing with ajinlondon. Keeping it couched in terms that Flyertalkers would understand probably keeps it available longer.

Was just a simple courtesy for those members who don't pop by here daily (or hourly!!) to stay current. Otherwise it would have been unlikely, not to mention quite time consuming to expect someone to dig through 24 pages to find those other fares
This is good for the people who need to learn about fares/ routings etc. and for the more advanced people. they only have to look at one page and i'm sure can work it out. or they will ask.







That said, the fact that this thread has been at the top of page one on the MR Forum for weeks at a time, is certainly enough of a tip off, that this is an active thread. [U]So, I'm not not sure about the relative impact of an individual thread vs. being at the end of this bulk thread being at the top of page one. It is easy to click 'last page' on this thread and get right to the heart of the matter.

Already we have new people who didn't notice the other thread. So this can't be correct.



aj, I have not written anything out in detail. I have simply aggregated what your fellow posters have chosen to post. While you might disagree with my consolidating tactic, which is well within your right, please know that I did not edit anyone else's posts nor add any of my own information hereI appreciate you didn't edit any posts. I didn't want to come accross in that way if i did.

At the end of the day, it is the responsibility and initiative of the OP of any given fare/routing to choose to reveal what they think is appropriate.

I hope that I've addressed your concerns, although I might not have RESOLVED them!


The op didn't post on the main board he posted it here. So this is contradictory. (unless he PM'd you.)

Appreciate your comments. ^

Of course if this is clogging up this thread you can move/delete as appropriate

I've also answered many PM's on this and find myself, reluctantly, agreeing with ajinlondon. Keeping it couched in terms that Flyertalkers would understand probably keeps it available longer.

I agree that is a workable scenario.

That said, keep in mind that when you give out info by PM, you never know who you really dealing with. Could be a Fat Wallet snoop or a closet airline lurker or an FTer who simply decides to post your proprietary info for the hell of it.

I can tell you firsthand, that there are long-time members with high post counts, that are indeed closet airline lurkers, as I actually shared some MR info before this forum was created, and sure enough I got a call from that airline the next day. And all of my PMs were with members who had four figure post counts.

My point is not to generate any more paranoia than there already is here, but rather to just give everyone a reality check that burying a fare/routing on page 106 is not a remedy, but just a stopgap, if even that.

More effective means of articulating fare opportunties without tipping the whole hand, is definitely something to aspire toward....and is the kind of dialogue looks to a better protection of FUTURE fares instead of being perplexed about the challenges of protecting PAST fares.

fully aware that i could be giving info to airline lurkers. But at least they have contributed to FT. I think everyone we be happier if discussions could be limited to only registered FTers

fully aware that i could be giving info to airline lurkers. But at least they have contributed to FT. I think everyone we be happier if discussions could be limited to only registered FTers

That suggestion is waaaay beyond Moderators!! That is a HOM issue; you might want to suggest in Only Randy Petersen the viability of that idea.

Much like Coupon Connection which also has a minimum post requirement in order to be 'registered', if someone really wants to know whats going on in MR, it doesn't take long to ramp up appropriate number of posts.



With respect to the 'individual' MR threads versus the cumulative 'Good Deals' thread, no other significant MR fare has been buried here. I personally can vouch for being able to take advantage of close to a DOZEN of these fares with the bright daylight of an individual thread announcing the fare and exact routing and booking info.

So, there is plenty of empirical data that suggests that an individual vs. buried thread has any appreciable impact.

As noted by many here, the bigger risks to an MR fare are NOT based on member posting conduct, but rather on MEMBER CONDUCT AFTER FINDING THE POST.
* calling the airline right away
* not using all ticket segments

There are alot of factors that affect a fare's short and long term availability, I would hope that the dialogue on MR Discussion adds those issues into the mix. FT is simply the messenger, and we definitely can plot and scheme how best to communicate/camouflage the message itself instead of worrying about how to camouflage the LOCATION of the message.

The op didn't post on the main board he posted it here. So this is contradictory. (unless he PM'd you.)


I meant to reference that the OP determined the CONTENT of his post. I agree that he didn't post the thread in separate LOCATION (ie- new thread). That was my initiative, which was only taken after his post triggered the 23 page flurry of activity. Again, I'm not defending it, just explaining it. And it is part of the Moderator 'Best Practices' policies to move or consolidate threads using our best discretion.

Having been on this Forum for 2 months and the AC Forum for 6 months, this is the first time I've ever initiated a 'public' Mod action, so I hope that whatever your opinion of my decision, that you can feel assured that I thought long and hard before choosing to do it!

Hope that helps to clarify my motives and intent!

I strongly disagree with the action to separate out the thread. I had been following this thread for a long time and was aware of this fare within two hours of it being posted and could have booked various dates and combinations of this fare at that time.

The part of FT that I like the best is that there is a lot on info on this site. All people need to do is put in a little work by reading through the posts. The part I dislike is the "help me because I'm too lazy to look things up myself" group that invariably screw things up for the people willing to put in the work. Separating out the post invites in the later group.

Beaubo, this is the second time in the last 3 weeks that you have considerably redone a thread or threads. I disagreed when you consolidated the US-HNL threads. Please let the community run the board and police those who break the rules. I don't think this section needs managing, just occasional policing. Thanks for trying to be helpful, but this is clearly another example of helping when help wasn't really necessary.

Normally, Moderator conduct is not subject to member analysis. In this instance, because I specifically posted my methodology for my actions, I welcome constructive feedback if you are so inclined.
It would be helpful if you would post SPECIFIC observations like:
* WHY you disagree with the Mod actions
* HOW you would handle this situation differently
* WHY status quo shoukd have been maintained

Thanks.

While I am interested in remaining open and accessible to feedback, I have been advised that appropriate mode of communication should PRIVATE MESSAGE (PM).

So, from this point forward, any discussion of my Mod actions should be via PM. To insure that PMS and not further postigngs are the appropriate mode of communication, I'm going to lock this thread, but rest assured your PMs will be answered.

I do have to abide by general Moderator policies, which I kind of flouted inadvertently!!

So, PM away if you'd like.

.

The part of FT that I like the best is that there is a lot on info on this site. All people need to do is put in a little work by reading through the posts. The part I dislike is the "help me because I'm too lazy to look things up myself" group that invariably screw things up for the people willing to put in the work. Separating out the post invites in the later group..

One of the responsibilities of moderating is to be aware of another group that you did not mention- 'help me because I 'DON'T KNOW'/AM NOT YET AWARE of how to look things up myself'.

FT is chock full of lurkers and newbies. FT has forums where threads are routinely consolidated for one-stop-shopping on page 1, which could be the expectation of a member coming onto MR.

Mod hat-off, member hat-on:

My personal opinion is that these MR fares is a function of timing, not location/positioing of info. Hardcore MR members check this forum multiple times each day; the 'other' folks just happen to get lucky and stumble upon a fare that happens to be in progress. The hardcore folks do indeed get in on the bulk of these fares because of their VIGILANCE about monitoring this forum or having a network of people that work together to monitor this forum.



.Beaubo, this is the second time in the last 3 weeks that you have considerably redone a thread or threads. I disagreed when you consolidated the US-HNL threads. Please let the community run the board and police those who break the rules. I don't think this section needs managing, just occasional policing. Thanks for trying to be helpful, but this is clearly another example of helping when help wasn't really necessary.

Since this thread was started on Feb 06, about two dozen business class fares were parked here, a good number of them ex-CMB variations. In the same time period, far more business class fares were posted as individual threads, with nary an outcry about NOT being in this thread. So, there is clearly no consensus that this thread is the default or preferred location for introducing business class fares. Further, amazing Coach class fares $84 YOW-HNL, $280 YYZ-OTP as examples all were under the scrutiny of their own threads, with no protestations about being 'buried'.

So, with over 90% of MR posts being that of 'individual' threads, there is ample precedent to develop a modicum of consistency for ANY member that decides to check out MR. And of course with 90% of the threads having infividual' titles, would that not also be an indication of the will/preferences of the community here?

The fact that such consistency has not been executed or enforced up to this point, is not necessarily an overriding reason to keep utlra-long threads intact.

PLEASE REMEMBER, while I value any feedback you have, please make sure it is via PM.

Let me start by an apology for a rather long post which goes over familiar territory and points made by others, but I wanted to see how the issue pans out in the context of a fully developed argument:). With this out of the way, let's start:

It seems to me that there are 3 main kinds of "good deal" premium fares:
1) promotional fares offered by airlines for a limited period: thanksgiving fares, anniversary fares, etc...
2) permanent low fares in particular, relatively obscure markets (the "ordinary" CMB deals would be an example of that)
3) "mistake" fares (eg: the no MPM, no HIP dimension of the CMB-JFK AZ fare).

1) do not create any particular problems and can certainly be dealt with in exactly the same way as any ordinary MR deals topics.

2) and 3), however, are more problematic and it is primarily in relation to these that controversy exists. Exploiting these fares effectively requires a different skills set. To draw an analogy, it is a bit like driving on a gravel road rather than a tar road.

FTers attitude in relation to these usually fall in one of three categories:

a) some adopt the "fight club approach": the first rule about mistake fares is: "you don't talk about mistake fares". The second rule about mistake fares is: (well, you know the rest). Any discussion takes place between friends or personally trusted individuals in private fora, PMs, etc...

b) some attempt to talk about it in semi-covered ways, proceeding by way of allusions and partial info, in the hope that this can be used by experienced FTers while leaving inexperienced FTers (and airline lurkers) in the semi-dark.

c) Some gladly post any information they have "because it is in the spirit of FT".

None of these 3 approaches look ideal to me:
While I don't particularly like a), I fully understand the reasons for it and, to tell the truth, this would be pretty much my approach in the current situation, as I would not feel safe about divulging too much information on fragile fares on FT.
As to b), it strikes me as also problematic for three reasons: first a little knowledge can be worse than no knowledge at all. Second, it tends to generate an avalanche of PMs and third, I think that it seriously underestimates the intelligence of airline lurkers.
As to c), while I like the publicly-spirited ethos that underlies it, it strikes me as rather irresponsible to give the public at large tools when some manifestly do not have the skills and experience necessary to use these tools in a safe manner. It is notable, in this respect, that a number of FTers with low or very low post counts took part in the CMB-JFK discussion, primarily for the purpose of attempting to elicit additional information, some of which is of a very basic nature.

Is there a solution? Clearly, there is no silver bullet. However, it seems to me that there is a strong case for creating a separate forum or sub-forum with restricted access.
The idea would be to limit access to those who are more likely to be sufficiently experienced to use these fares in an effective and safe way. Given this objective, the qualification criteria would have to be substantially higher than OMNI or coupon connection. There is always something arbitrary in choosing a figure but, let us say that 1.5 year of active participation in FT could be regarded as a reasonable criterion and therefore a requirement of 500/500 (compared to 180/180 for OMNI and 90/90 for cc) would seem to me suitable. The threshold would be sufficiently high to discourage opportunistic behaviour.
Plainly this is not perfect. This will exclude some individuals with low post counts who would use these fares in a safe manner. Conversely, a high post count/period of participation in FT is no absolute guarantee that the FTer will not act in a selfish/irresponsible/reckless manner. However, we are talking about risk management here and adopting a solution that would bring the risk down to a more reasonable and acceptable level than is currently the case.
Clearly, some FTers will still prefer to keep some discussions off FT altogether. That's fine. Individuals have different attitudes to risk and nobody can be blamed or criticised for preferring to keep valuable but potentially dangerous information under closer wraps. However, it would provide a way out for those who want to contribute information but feel unable to do so given the wide open nature of FT and the high level of risk currently associated with divulging this kind of information too widely.
A less compelling argument, but one that might have more sway with those who prefer more moralistic arguments, is that the "prize" of especially valuable information would be limited to those who make a substantial contribution to FT reflected in a relatively high post count.

The advantage of a restricted forum is that it moves away from the "clique" approach, since it is open to anybody. It just requires a sufficient commitment to FT which, in turn, should result in developing the necessary knowledge and experience to use the fares in a safer manner.

And yes, I understand what beaubo says about it being a managerial decision. Nonetheless, there is a point in discussing the way forward, wherever the decision has to be taken.

While our discussion about the 'Good Deals Premium Fares' thread was very instructive and helpful to me, it was rather short-lived. Please feel free to review the posts on this thread to get an understanding of different, but all valid perspectives about the issues below. If anyone has any feedback on the following, feel free to PM me:

* new individual threads vs. 'buried' posts on long threads
* Is FT the culprit for pulled fares vs. fares are already exposed to airlines
before being posted on FT via 'private' usage
* posting more generic/cryptic new deals vs. full disclosure
* consolidating/summarizing key posts on page 1/post 1 or a new related thread vs. status quo on long threads
l

Thanks.

Are we presumptuous enough to truly believe that an airliner lurker cannot decode the thinly veiled hints that accompany the disclosure of intriguing new fares in far flung regions of the world on FlyerTalk these days.

I think this observation hits home.

In the past, the implicit ground rules on MR was not about being cryptic, it was simply about moving with alacrity. The presumption was that a fare was going to last a short time. How short, no one knew....so the challenge was being impulsive enough to book the ticket NOW with the hope that the dates you plugged in would AFTER THE FACT hopefully end up meshing with your work/vacation schedule and hopefully passing muster with your S.O.

If the goal is 'preservation' of a fare, then there is no global solution. If the goal is taking 'advantage' of a fare, that goal remains as available as it has ever been:
1. check MR often (every 3-5 hrs.; set your alarm for 3am just be safe for overnight fare finds...thats what got me YYZ-OTP!)
2. already know your available windows of travel dates, so you can book immediately upon seeing a fare
3. already know where in the world you'll get a thumbs up/down if you have S.O.
4. already know what your elite status, segment or mileage thresholds situation to determine your need


Overall with these fare opportunities, its about hoofing it, not hiding it!